Who has been Sonic's best rival so far?

[Sega DogTagz]

That will happen when they're bosses in games where you're not allowed to continue until you win. To their credit, they did legitimately defeat Sonic in all those alternate universes where you played poorly.

 

...and then there were all those adventures that ended with Sonic falling into a bottomless pit, or being smooshed by a moving block, or walking into a Crabmeat with no rings, or so on... Where Sonic's humiliating death let Sonic's rival triumph unchallenged.

 

 

That's what extra lives and continues and rage quit reset buttons are for. lol

[UltDevilDoom]

I got "The History of Sonic the Hedgehog" book by Pix N' Love today. It notes Shadow as Sonic's fiercest rival. It also brands Shadow with terms like "strong popularity" and "fan-favorite". Metal doesn't get nearly as much attention - believe it or not, he's not even mentioned in the two Sonic CD pages.

 

I don't believe everything I read, but this book was created with direct help from Sega. That says something.

[Kuzu]

Even if he is shit nowadays, Shadow does have the highest percentage as far as fighting Sonic goes, and their conflict was more personal adding fuel to the rivalry soooo....yeah.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well who knows what they could've done further with it before they botched all the other characters...

[Burnt Ash]

I got "The History of Sonic the Hedgehog" book by Pix N' Love today. It notes Shadow as Sonic's fiercest rival. It also brands Shadow with terms like "strong popularity" and "fan-favorite". Metal doesn't get nearly as much attention - believe it or not, he's not even mentioned in the two Sonic CD pages.   I don't believe everything I read, but this book was created with direct help from Sega. That says something.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Generations bio says something similar about Metal, the fierce rival or something.

[Sunset]

I always thought Shadow was a redundant Metal Sonic. I mean, yes he was better in Sonic Adventure 2 than he is now, but he was always moody and 'dark'. It always seemed hilarious to me. Especially the way he would say things like 'hmph...I'm the coolest!'

 

He acts as Sonic's double, in exactly the same way as Metal Sonic, only with extra moodiness and 'coolness'.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Sunset

[Kuzu]

I always thought Shadow was a redundant Metal Sonic. I mean, yes he was better in Sonic Adventure 2 than he is now, but he was always moody and 'dark'. It always seemed hilarious to me. Especially the way he would say things like 'hmph...I'm the coolest!'

 

He acts as Sonic's double, in exactly the same way as Metal Sonic, only with extra moodiness and 'coolness'.

 

 

Shadow has a character, Metal Sonic doesn't. That instantly disqualifies Shadow from being redundant about anything.

[Sunset]

Shadow has a character, Metal Sonic doesn't. That instantly disqualifies Shadow from being redundant about anything.

 

Shadow's character is appalling. It's essentially a moody Sonic that is 'dark' and 'cool' in a terribly hilarious way. No matter how many times Hardcore Shadow fans will convince themselves (and I'm not accusing you of this), Shadow has a lot of responsibility for ruining the reputation of the franchise for making the series 'dark' and 'moody'

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Who are Sonic's biggests rivals? I'd say Knuckles, Shadow, and Jet.

 

As great as Sonic Generations's fight was, Metal Sonic is NOT the #1 Sonic Rival of the Classic era. That goes to Knuckles. And although he soon became a friend of Sonic's afterwards, Knuckles was a pretty big impact on the Sonic Series.

 

Shadow is UNDOUBTABLY the biggest rival of the Dreamcast era, if not by story, then by marketing. Sonic became OBSESSED with him. He's still slightly obessed with him come heroes. Shadow seriously challenged Sonic - he had powers Sonic didn't have, and Sonic felt vunerable.

 

Jet is here because like Shadow, he seriously challenged Sonic. Agian, Sonic became a little obessed with his rival, and Jet was king of a whole new area to Sonic. He's leader of a pack of theives, and he's willing to cheat his way to what he wants. After losing to Sonic, Jet became obsessed with beating Sonic, taking back the title of fastest thing in the universe.

 

Characters in Sonic sure get OBSESSED! a lot, huh?

[Kuzu]

Shadow's character is appalling. It's essentially a moody Sonic that is 'dark' and 'cool' in a terribly hilarious way. No matter how many times Hardcore Shadow fans will convince themselves (and I'm not accusing you of this), Shadow has a lot of responsibility for ruining the reputation of the franchise for making the series 'dark' and 'moody'

 

Are you seriously blaming Shadow for the terrible writing this series has had.

[Jack / Joker]

Shadow has a lot of responsibility for ruining the reputation of the franchise for making the series 'dark' and 'moody'

 

I never realized that Shadow was head of Sonic Team and he was the one who decided to take the series in that direction! The more you know...

Edited January 3, 2013 by Optimus Prime

[Sunset]

Are you seriously blaming Shadow for the terrible writing this series has had.

 

Sonic didn't just get terrible in the story department because of the script. The game take a forced 'mature' and 'grown up' direction once SA2 was released. Shadow was specifically designed to be the personification of this direction and you are deluding yourself if you try to claim he wasn't. 

 

He specifically says how 'cool' he is numerous times and how he wants to 'take revenge and destroy the world' in SA2. Shadow was always a wannabe grim character.

 

It's not that having a dark character in a kids entertainment is a bad thing. The problem with Shadow was how forced and insincere his 'dark' character always seemed. Obviously his character got worse with the terrible script in Shadow the Hedgehog, but he was always an appalling character.

[Kuzu]

Sonic didn't just get terrible in the story department because of the script.

So script just has no bearing on story at all is what you're trying to tell me.

 

The game take a forced 'mature' and 'grown up' direction once SA2 was released.

 

 

 

Keep in mind this game came directly after Sa2.

 

Shadow was specifically designed to be the personification of this direction and you are deluding yourself if you try to claim he wasn't. 

I never said he wasn't, I'm trying to figure out how that suddenly translates to being responsible for the writing direction this series took back then. You're talking as if Shadow was the one who wrote those scenarios, which unless I'm mistaken, he wasn't.

 

He specifically says how 'cool' he is numerous times and how he wants to 'take revenge and destroy the world' in SA2.

You mean how Sonic always says how cool he is, and how Shadow is supposed to be a mirror image of him?

 

Shadow was always a wannabe grim character.

No more than Sonic himself being a wannabe cool character.

 

It's not that having a dark character in a kids entertainment is a bad thing. The problem with Shadow was how forced and insincere his 'dark' character always seemed. Obviously his character got worse with the terrible script in Shadow the Hedgehog, but he was always an appalling character.

 

Once again, you're talking as if Shadow is the one who wrote those games or somehow his mere presence just instantly made those games terrible when you're blame should be going to the writers. God, I understand people don't like Shadow, but I'm getting sick of people scapegoating him and saying how he "ruined" the franchise when he was written that way, how is it Shadow's fault he's written terribly?

[Spin Attaxx]

Considering what came in the interum between Heroes - Unleashed, Sunset has a point on that "mature and grown-up approach" thing.

[Sunset]

So script just has no bearing on story at all is what you're trying to tell me.

 

 

 

 

Keep in mind this game came directly after Sa2.

 

I never said he wasn't, I'm trying to figure out how that suddenly translates to being responsible for the writing direction this series took back then. You're talking as if Shadow was the one who wrote those scenarios, which unless I'm mistaken, he wasn't.

 

You mean how Sonic always says how cool he is, and how Shadow is supposed to be a mirror image of him?

 

No more than Sonic himself being a wannabe cool character.

 

 

Once again, you're talking as if Shadow is the one who wrote those games or somehow his mere presence just instantly made those games terrible when you're blame should be going to the writers. God, I understand people don't like Shadow, but I'm getting sick of people scapegoating him and saying how he "ruined" the franchise when he was written that way, how is it Shadow's fault he's written terribly?

 

I'll try to respond to each of your points in separate paragraphs.

 

I never said that the script has no bearing on the direction, only that it is not the only factor. I also am not trying to accuse you of this it's just a point I see many make and I'm trying to explain it clearly.

 

Sonic Heroes is the odd one out. SA1 could be included but it's debatable. I would include SA2 (and the much more famous SA2: Battle re-release), Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 as examples of mainstream 'big' Sonic titles that went in a 'mature' direction.

 

I never said Shadow was, somehow, personally responsible for the writing as if he was alive  . I said the character was responsible for the direction of Sonic into 'maturity', that is the huge popularity of his character led the series into a direction that has tarnished Sonic's reputation.

 

Sonic is cool in an arrogant and cocky way rather than 'dark' and 'badass'. Additionally, Sonic rarely says how cool he is whilst Shadow never shuts up about it.

 

Sonic is a wannabe cool character, I'd agree with that. However, it is much more sincere than Shadow's character as it isn't constantly banged home to the player with a hammer. 

 

I'm not saying it's 'just' Shadow's fault. I'm only stating how Shadow's character is part of the many factors that led to the 'mature' direction of Sonic. I also can't agree that Shadow, as a character, can't take responsibility for this movement, because, he was intentionally and specifically designed to be the personification of a dark and moody character. Even his name, 'Shadow', is not exactly subtle about this. He cannot really be re-written in another way without completely changing his character.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Sunset

[Jack / Joker]

I never said Shadow was responsible for the writing . I said the character was responsible for the direction of Sonic into 'maturity', that is the huge popularity of his character.

 

Well... that's still wrong. The only characters who can come close to affecting the direction of the series are Sonic and Eggman, and they were both as monotonous and boring in Sonic '06 as the game's plot itself.

 

EDIT: ...I never said he wasn't popular, I said he isn't responsible for the series' change in direction...

 

Additionally, Sonic rarely says how cool he is whilst Shadow never shuts up about it.

 

When did Shadow never shut up about being cool again? That one line from the boss fight in SA2?

Edited January 3, 2013 by Optimus Prime

[Sunset]

Well... that's still wrong. The only characters who can come close to affecting the direction of the series are Sonic and Eggman, and they were both as monotonous and boring in Sonic '06 as the game's plot itself.

 

 

When did Shadow never shut up about being cool again? 

 

Come on, that's not true. Shadow was so popular he even had his own individual game.

 

In response to your edit, the fact he had his own game and was arguably the main character of Sonic 06 shows how he has affected the direction of the series in the past.

 

Just off the top of my head, the line from the boss fight in SA2. But it isn't really just his script but also his whole attitude. That whole 'hmph I'm too cool to care' manner of speech.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Sunset

[Coral]

I never said that the script has no bearing on the direction, only that it is not the only factor. I also am not trying to accuse you of this it's just a point I see many make and I'm trying to explain it clearly.

 

Sonic Heroes is the odd one out. SA1 could be included but it's debatable. I would include SA2 (and the much more famous SA2: Battle re-release), Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 as examples of mainstream 'big' Sonic titles that went in a 'mature' direction.

 

I never said Shadow was, somehow, personally responsible for the writing as if he was alive  . I said the character was responsible for the direction of Sonic into 'maturity', that is the huge popularity of his character led the series into a direction that has tarnished Sonic's reputation.

 

I'm not saying it's 'just' Shadow's fault. I'm only stating how Shadow's character is part of the many factors that led to the 'mature' direction of Sonic.

 

Just popping in to say one thing. You're essentially claiming that Shadow is one part of the reason that the Sonic series went into a dark, gritty, "mature" style, yeah? So does this automatically discount the classic 2D games or something? The Sonic series has always had a shadow of forebodance to it. Eggman takes little animals and uses them as robot fuel, for christ's sake! In Sonic 2, there was the threat of the Death Egg looming over Sonic's head, and he had to rush to sneak aboard and destroy it. Sonic 3 and Knuckles continued the story, ending with an epic duel with a giant monstrosity of a robot that could threaten the planet. Sonic CD had the threat of a dark, robot infested future with no hope of the animals surviving should Sonic fail his mission.

 

It's cool you have an opinion about this, but to blame a lot of the "mature" direction on Shadow (which you are with your constant alluding to him in your points) is just silly when there was always a mature element to the series. Just because you have bright colors and cute animal heroes doesn't mean there can't be some scary undertones.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Coral

[Sunset]

Just popping in to say one thing. You're essentially claiming that Shadow is one part of the reason that the Sonic series went into a dark, gritty, "mature" style, yeah? So does this automatically discount the classic 2D games or something? The Sonic series has always had a shadow of forebodance to it. Eggman takes little animals and uses them as robot fuel, for christ's sake! In Sonic 2, there was the threat of the Death Egg looming over Sonic's head, and he had to rush to sneak aboard and destroy it. Sonic 3 and Knuckles continued the story, ending with an epic duel with a giant monstrosity of a robot that could threaten the planet. Sonic CD had the threat of a dark, robot infested future with no hope of the animals surviving should Sonic fail his mission.

 

It's cool you have an opinion about this, but to blame a lot of the "mature" direction on Shadow (which you are with your constant alluding to him in your points) is just silly when there was always a mature element to the series. Just because you have bright colors and cute animal heroes doesn't mean there can't be some scary undertones.

 

When I say 'dark' and 'moody' I'm referring to an immature take on 'dark' and 'moody'. Essentially, dark and moody that is hardly dark at all, but is trying it's very best to come across as dark and just looks forced. 

 

I'm aware Sonic always had a dark element but it wasn't so badly forced. There's nothing in the old, or recent, Sonic games that feature 'damn, damn, damn' , guns, war jeeps, serious romance (sonic and elise), characters getting murdered or deep stories about revenge that are so hammered home they just look silly.

[Coral]

When I say 'dark' and 'moody' I'm referring to an immature take on 'dark' and 'moody'. Essentially, dark and moody that is hardly dark at all, but is trying it's very best to come across as dark and just looks forced. 

 

I'm aware Sonic always had a dark element but it wasn't so badly forced. There's nothing in the old, or recent, Sonic games that feature 'damn, damn, damn' , guns, war jeeps, serious romance (sonic and elise), characters getting murdered or deep stories about revenge that are so hammered home they just look silly.

 

So I guess Chaos' intense hatred and rage for society doesn't count as your dark and moody? A character created for the sole purpose of driving a plotpoint home that Sonic is srs bsns? Chaos annihilated an entire species just because they abused the power of the emeralds for power. Tikal sacrificed her life to calm him down, in turn sealing her soul within the emerald along with Chaos. There's some hardcore murder shenanigans right there.

 

There is such a thing as exaggerating a character's personality to the point where they become a comic of their former self. It'd be safe to say that this happened to Shadow when the execs found out how popular that character was and the potential for big money. In other words, it was the writers who dun goof'd and turned Shadow into a moody clown after SA2. What 06 merely did was attempt to retcon the Sonic series, which could explain this sudden, out of nowehere relationship with Elise. The creators even thought about giving Sonic a human girlfriend named Madonna long before Sonic had any games. I wonder how that would have gone if they actually went through with it.

 

If you want a scapegoat, SA1 would seem like a much better candidate instead of SA2 seeing as how it began the Adventure formula. The Adventure formula thus egged the writers on to write darker tales with more violence or whatever. Even then, this opinion would be flawed with the many lighthearted games added in the meantime such as Heroes, and the current state of the games, such as Colors.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Coral

[Sunset]

So I guess Chaos' intense hatred and rage for society doesn't count as your dark and moody? A character created for the sole purpose of driving a plotpoint home that Sonic is srs bsns? Chaos annihilated an entire species just because they abused the power of the emeralds for power. Tikal sacrificed her life to calm him down, in turn sealing her soul within the emerald along with Chaos. There's some hardcore murder shenanigans right there.

 

There is such a thing as exaggerating a character's personality to the point where they become a comic of their former self. It'd be safe to say that this happened to Shadow when the execs found out how popular that character was and the potential for big money. In other words, it was the writers who dun goof'd and turned Shadow into a moody clown after SA2. What 06 merely did was attempt to retcon the Sonic series, which could explain this sudden, out of nowehere relationship with Elise. The creators even thought about giving Sonic a human girlfriend named Madonna long before Sonic had any games. I wonder how that would have gone if they actually went through with it.

 

If you want a scapegoat, SA1 would seem like a much better candidate instead of SA2 seeing as how it began the Adventure formula. The Adventure formula thus egged the writers on to write darker tales with more violence or whatever. Even then, this opinion would be flawed with the many lighthearted games added in the meantime such as Heroes, and the current state of the games, such as Colors.

 

Chaos' hatred doesn't count as my 'moody' because I actually think SA1's story works. I admitted that SA1's moody factor was up for debate earlier but I still don't think SA1's story was moody merely for the sake of being moody. There is a lot more humour and light heartedness in SA1 than SA2.  And yes, there is murder shenanigans, but it wasn't hammered right in your face as the examples I used do. 

 

See here is where I disagree with you. I think Shadow was already a moody clown in SA2. I would admit he's far better in SA2 than after SA2, but I still consider him to be hilariously moody just for the sake of being moody. He represents the move SA2 did, which was being dark and 'mature' for the sake of it. 

 

Personally, I think the Madonna girlfriend idea was absolutely stupid. I'm so glad they axed that.

 

I think the moody era of Sonic died with Unleashed. I actually despise Sonic Unleashed (it's the only Sonic game I actually gave up on) but I have to give it credit for killing the moody element.

 

Unusually for a Classic Sonic fan, I actually like the modern games like Generations. I would actually go as far as to say that Sonic Generations is better than Sonic 1.

[Pawn]

The franchise's descent into mediocrity was a direct result of Sega's own downfall. Swiftly churning out three very different games for the sake of cashing in on nostalgia, a wider market and the popularity of the characters, they traded its reputation for their survival. If Shadow hadn't ever existed, we'd still have received an '06 shitfest with Sonic's name on it.

 

Chaos' hatred doesn't count as my 'moody' because I actually think SA1's story works. I admitted that SA1's moody factor was up for debate earlier but I still don't think SA1's story was moody merely for the sake of being moody. There is a lot more humour and light heartedness in SA1 than SA2.  And yes, there is murder shenanigans, but it wasn't hammered right in your face as the examples I used do. 

 

I find the Hero Story of SA2 to be more lighthearted than SA, due in part to Sonic's characterisation having significantly improved. Aside from his initial confrontations with Shadow, he is appropriately peppy and optimistic. I don't see a problem with the Dark Story taking a slightly darker turn since it allows you to experience events from the villains' perspective, while Shadow's particular back story gives you a chance to empathise with him. I'm well aware that the execution of the whole story caused many a cringeworthy moment, but Shadow isn't the only victim of this in the Adventure games (and indeed, for many games after).

Edited January 3, 2013 by Pawn

[Sunset]

The franchise's descent into mediocrity was a direct result of Sega's own downfall. Swiftly churning out three very different games for the sake of cashing in on nostalgia, a wider market and the popularity of the characters, they traded its reputation for their survival. If Shadow hadn't ever existed, we'd still have received an '06 shitfest with Sonic's name on it.

 

You can't be that sure. Loads of Sonic 06's problems were the result of the terrible direction that Sonic was going in because of the fans of the Adventure titles and Shadow's game. Whilst Shadow was critically hated loads of fans absolutely loved it. Whilst Sonic was rushed and was completely unfinished there were loads of other problems with that game. Like the hilarious moody story which Shadow almost single-handedly drove to big popularity.

[UltDevilDoom]

You can't be that sure. Loads of Sonic 06's problems were the result of the terrible direction that Sonic was going in because of the fans of the Adventure titles and Shadow's game. Whilst Shadow was critically hated loads of fans absolutely loved it. Whilst Sonic was rushed and was completely unfinished there were loads of other problems with that game. Like the hilarious moody story which Shadow almost single-handedly drove to big popularity.

 

Sunset banned after only 12 posts? I guess some people thought his posts were more offensive than I did. I just laughed.

[Spin Attaxx]

Actually she was a ban jumper. She was known as Bright Eyes, Barley Fields, Siren, Goddess and I'm pretty sure Plato and Quartz Quadrant.

 

Anyway, I think Shadow fills the rival role by default now - Metal's more villainous.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Spin Attaxx