What role does "precision platforming" have in this series?

[Diogenes]

It's become a common complaint that modern Sonic games, Unleashed especially, lack "precision platforming". And that's true (to certain extents, depending on the game in question)...but is it a problem?

"Precision" is hardly the first thing that comes to mind when I think about Sonic games. Sonic doesn't deal in tight, controlled motions, the way characters like Mario and Megaman do. He's fast, he's heavy, he's made to move from one thing to the next in big sweeping motions. Precision platforming takes Sonic out of his element. It forces him to slow down, it uses his weight against him. And while this can be a valid element of the level design, I'm not sure it's something that's vitally important, or something we need a lot of.

Now keep in mind I'm not suggesting that we don't need platforming in general. But do we need high levels of precision platforming, or should the games focus more on broader movements that are more fitting of Sonic's physics?

[Wentos]

This wouldn't even be an argument if they hadn't changed the focus of the gameplay in the first place. Sonic needs platforming, and it needs to be a large focus. Speed and flow should be rewards for platforming well. Aside from control issues, I think Sonic Generations did a good job of capturing this.

I've played Rooftop Run Act 2 many times, and I can blow through it pretty quickly; The difference between it and the Unleashed rendition though is that the speed isn't just a spectacle that you're mostly watching.

Edited October 22, 2012 by KatamariParadox

[Soniman]

I actually want less percussion platforming, and more...flowy platforming that all just form naturally, if that makes any sense at all.

[...]

Both.

Ever since Sonic was introduced, he is, and always has been labeled as a platformer. The main thing that differentiated Sonic from the main competition was speed, it's what defines him, his main gimmick My ideals on evenly mixing both. Instead of switching to 2D sections for the majority of platforming sections, the level design should be similar more to that of Sonic 1, whether you can choose to perform precise, (but at a faster pace) platforming, or to just run through the zone, and do your usual stuff, destroying badniks and whatnot. Another why to implement Sonic's physics to use is to build up speed instead of instant gratification with the boost, and use the built up momentum for rolling.

[Blue Blood]

Precision platforming is never the best way to describe what Sonic games should involve. When I think precision platforming, I think of something in vein of Colours bland floating boxes, or Sonic 1's Labyrinth Zone. Neither of those are good. Sonic is more active platforming. There's no sitting and waiting, it's just simple platforming where there's short tasks to break up the running. None automated springs, enemies you have to jump on, swinging vines, slides, see-saws, pinball objects...

Platforming is more than just jumping from one platform to another. It's got to flow.

[Mr. Taxi]

I think there is not a single possibility we must discard or even undermine just for the sake of making a game more "Sonic-y" (EDIT: as long as it keeps up and doesn't get neglected later). Precision platforming has a lot of potential for Sonic, as it's one of the best ways to build what the difficulty in Sonic is all about - tension and player-induced mistakes.

As any resource, it should be handled with care and be able do build an harmonic whole. But I don't see how it doesn't "fit" Sonic. It's a resource like any other.

Besides, and much more importantly, "precise platforming" is just a concept. We can take it lightly and apply its very core to Sonic. It's not much a matter of how the designer sets it up, but a matter of how the player perceives it.

Precise platforming is about fear to make mistakes and stimulating full focus on the right movement for the right time. Is that correct? If so, Sonic can easily reproduce this without the same elements we see in Mario and megaman: if we can introduce elements that induce so much fear of making mistakes (like a wall of impending doom) that every movement releases adrenaline, we don't have to reduce the player's margin of error at all. There is a very sound example of this at the very beginning of Hydrocity Act 2: the sheer fact that there is a wall moving makes what would otherwise be normal, even boring platforming into precision platforming where each mistake is punished - no. More importantly, it makes the player feel like punished.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Palas

[Blacklightning]

As long as the Homing Attack has a say? Not much. If there's any considerable distance to cover you can almost always count on some sort of HA target to get your bearings right, so most platforming of the precise kind is only ever really viable in tight spaces and comparitvely short hops. There's really nothing wrong with that in my eyes - I'd really rather that platforming be too easy than require me to twitch jump out of nowhere and fuck around enough with my momentum to land precisely, especially when the margin of error can potentially hit the fractions of seconds.

If anything, platforming really needs to be more consistent, not just precise. It's kind of flowbreaking to be running through an otherwise speedy boost-corridor level only to throw some mediocre platforming in the middle in some vain attempt at pleasing people who feel they aren't jumping enough. If you want to induce a certain type of pace then you do it on a by-level basis, not alternate between different approaches on the fly and hope it doesn't feel like a cockblock to one or the other.

[hangarninetysix]

If you want to go really fast, you have to play it as a precision platformer. Otherwise it can be something else.

Edit: In classic Sonic, anyway.

Edited October 23, 2012 by hangarninetysix

[Kuzu]

I think it's more of a balance thing;

You got levels like Marble Zone, Labyrinth zone, Scrap Brain Zone, and Metropolis Zone all of which have "precision" platforming, basically Mario-Esc "slow" platforming, most people would call something like that unfit for Sonic, a generally fast series, and would just spend the entire stage speeding through the game, but ignoring the fanboys for a sec.

Platforming in general plays a vital role in Sonic, no matter how fast you want him to go, or how fast he gets, he is at the end of the day, a platformer, a faster paced one, but still one nonetheless and should abide by it's rules. I don't think platforming should be slowed down to the point of dull like in most of the Classic levels, and Colors but at the same time I don't want to spend up to 2-3 minutes playing a glorified quick time event.

Like Cheese said, the platforming needs to be more consistent, and blend together; Sonic Team is trying use both rather than try to bring both together in a sexy combination. Now how you would go about doing this is anybody's guess.

[Mr. Taxi]

I think it's more of a balance thing;

You got levels like Marble Zone, Labyrinth zone, Scrap Brain Zone, and Metropolis Zone all of which have "precision" platforming, basically Mario-Esc "slow" platforming, most people would call something like that unfit for Sonic, a generally fast series, and would just spend the entire stage speeding through the game, but ignoring the fanboys for a sec.

Platforming in general plays a vital role in Sonic, no matter how fast you want him to go, or how fast he gets, he is at the end of the day, a platformer, a faster paced one, but still one nonetheless and should abide by it's rules. I don't think platforming should be slowed down to the point of dull like in most of the Classic levels, and Colors but at the same time I don't want to spend up to 2-3 minutes playing a glorified quick time event.

Like Cheese said, the platforming needs to be more consistent, and blend together; Sonic Team is trying use both rather than try to bring both together in a sexy combination. Now how you would go about doing this is anybody's guess.

I agree a lot with this post. It's not so much a matter of abiding to the rules - it's a question of why should you follow these rules anyway. About that... well, I don't know if I'll use metaphors or I'll just get straight to the point.

...I think I've used too many metaphors for the time being.

You'll only value the speed you achieve if you face a situation where you don't have it but wish you had. So making it slow is crucial to make the player taste speed better. Once again, notice how Sonic 1 plays it masterfully by placing slow/blocky zones after fast/more fluid ones. Green Hill, Marble Zone, Spring Yard, Labyrinth Zone, Starlight Zone, Scrap Brain.

[Kuzu]

I agree a lot with this post. It's not so much a matter of abiding to the rules - it's a question of why should you follow these rules anyway. About that... well, I don't know if I'll use metaphors or I'll just get straight to the point.

...I think I've used too many metaphors for the time being.

You'll only value the speed you achieve if you face a situation where you don't have it but wish you had. So making it slow is crucial to make the player taste speed better. Once again, notice how Sonic 1 plays it masterfully by placing slow/blocky zones after fast/more fluid ones. Green Hill, Marble Zone, Spring Yard, Labyrinth Zone, Starlight Zone, Scrap Brain.

See the thing is, I think every level should have been similar to the likes of Starlight, where there's an abundance of speed, but also just as much platforming to overcome. A game like Sonic 1 just seems horribly inconsistent like that with how it's levels are ordered.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Mr. Taxi]

Heh, that's interesting. I can't help but see this as the perfect consistency (and, for being perfect, must be dropped sometimes for the sake of unpredictability). I think I wouldn't like a game with a general constant feeling. A rollercoaster can't have a sudden and intense drop if there isn't a huge amount of buildup.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Palas

[Kuzu]

True, but you don't want to bore the player to tears, and if you're using a rollercoaster as a metaphor, then Sonic 1 feels like a see saw going up and down in terms of excitement.

[Gregzilla]

I think making a conscious effort to give Sonic games "precision" platforming is the wrong way to go about it. Whatever the amount of platforming may be, I think Sonic games are at their most enjoyable when you feel a great sense of flow. My personal favorite parts of Sonic levels are when I can feel a sense of accomplishment by skillfully navigating various obstacles without breaking Sonic's stride. In this sense, I think some of the Modern Generations levels actually display this wonderfully. Rather than have the challenge come from carefully jumping from platform to platform in order to progress, the challenge comes from utilizing Sonic's moves to discover new routes.

Basically, I like it when it goes like this: See that route? Go for it! See another route? If you have the skills, go for that one!

I think that kind of level design strikes a wonderful balance in difficulty. I'd prefer that to something like Marble Zone that forces the player to move, wait, jump, wait, move, and repeat on little blocks. Precision platforming has its place, but there are much more interesting ways to challenge the player while still maintaining speed and flow.