Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Pawn]

Yeah, unlike Freeza, he's quite the coward. Maybe he's playing it smart and preserving his stamina, but I doubt it would've taken much to knock 18 out at the same time.

[-Robin-]

Depends. The Androids are capable of knocking a Super Saiyan Blue off balance, and whatever Frost's power increase may be, he started off weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta and was unconscious when Vegeta went Blue. 

Krillin was knocked out of bounds because Frost caught him while Krillin was dumbly celebrating. A stronger, aware 18 would be harder to take down, and Frost was too close to the edge of the ring to risk one misstep. 

[Pawn]

It's hard to tell how strong 17 or 18 are really, as SSB Goku could suppress his power enough to even get locked into a power struggle with Krillin. I personally doubt they come close to god level though.

[-Robin-]

I do like the way Beerus reacted to Krillin going down. That was a highlight.

Quitela, Ro and Sidra, and Rummshi have all treated their fighters with disrespect and derision when they lost, losses that happened outright. But when Krillin got ringed out due to carelessness, Beerus, who had every right to demean Krillin for that, just calmly berates him for getting careless, and then tells him that it happened, and all he can do now is cheer his team on.

 

Would you have expected that demeanor from Beerus in the BoG arc?

[Ratcicle King]

Beerus' reactions compared to other gods of destruction have been a highlight of his character, way back in the U6 arc, when Goku lost on purpose, while Beerus DID get upset and got on Goku's face because of it, he basically just sat back, covered his face and got prepared to accept defeat, even if he clearly didn't enjoy it. Meanwhile, Champa, once his team lost, had a big tantrum and was ready to erase them all for humiliating him.

[Meta77]

That one angel acting so casual to his universe being whipped reeks villain plot. Also I'm sure kale is going to take out a few fighters in next episode but burden will wreck her

[Tani Coyote]

On 7/16/2017 at 1:00 PM, Pawn said:

I'm hoping that Dyspo is their number 3, as he surely must have some tie to Beerus and Champa (even if it's just that he belongs to the same race) and I want to see their response to him.

 

Narirama was able to catch him off guard, and he would have been eaten without help from Toppo and Kahseral, so I'm expecting him to go down quickly.

Now sure, he's called the Sonic Warrior, but when a glorified Fidget Spinner is able to take you by surprise, I don't have high hopes.

On 7/17/2017 at 10:10 AM, Meta77 said:

That one angel acting so casual to his universe being whipped reeks villain plot.

We have to remember: Mojito's bio says he hated both of his Gods. Roh was a jerk, and Sidra was annoyingly indecisive. Neither had any business holding their posts... and that's why he's not surprised at all they were the first to go. The Trio de Dangers are a foil to both their Gods' personality flaws: they take action, and they show love and care for each other if not anyone else. If Roh and Sidra took a page from them, maybe U9 would still be around, rather than a Social Darwinist hellhole that inevitably fell victim to its own ideology.

What's more convincing of a sinister plot is Grand Priest's evil grin. His demeanor was always polite and kind (except when he was annoyed) until now. He was clearly happy to see a universe be eliminated, and was clearly showing this to Goku... someone who he's traditionally been extremely kind and accepting towards, even as he breaks decorum (barring the one Zen match thing).

[Meta77]

I think zenoh is just a child being told what to do. He can't grasp what he is erasing

[Vec]

6 hours ago, Meta77 said:

I think zenoh is just a child being told what to do. He can't grasp what he is erasing

Maybe Mr. Priest...but any other he'll just go and say "shut up, or I'll erase you".

Well, they didn't have a disagreement yet, and the day they do, Goku will mostly be the subject of that disagreement and that'd be the moment Mr. Priest will tell Zen-Oh to eff off and also if he'll threaten the Priest the same way he does to others.

[GucciBurr]

i don't see why anyone would think grand priest has some kind of hidden agenda. what could he even be hiding at this point? we already knew a bunch of universes were going to be annihilated in the tournament. i don't see how the gods could reasonably come up with anything worse than that.

grand priest is just smiling because universes getting destroyed doesn't unnerve him in the slightest.

[Tani Coyote]

...well I'm glad the fandom is having a fun time coming up with memes for this series. Warning: the volume does increase suddenly at one point.

On 7/17/2017 at 9:23 PM, GucciBurr said:

grand priest is just smiling because universes getting destroyed doesn't unnerve him in the slightest.

That's no ordinary smile. It's an evil smile.

He's enjoying this. Compare to how originally, he just seemed indifferent to it all.

Now yes, he could just be sadistic. But the way Mojito smiled as well makes people think the Angels have some sort of plot behind it all.

On 7/17/2017 at 8:30 PM, Ice Vec said:

Well, they didn't have a disagreement yet, and the day they do, Goku will mostly be the subject of that disagreement and that'd be the moment Mr. Priest will tell Zen-Oh to eff off and also if he'll threaten the Priest the same way he does to others.

I don't know if we'll reach that point per se, but I certainly think we might see GP's influence over Zen-Oh wane this saga.

Whether it's Zen-Oh hesitating to erase Goku, or Goku managing to convince Zen-Oh that more universes means more regular fights for his entertainment (with GP most likely twitching his eye as Zen-Oh agrees)... Or who knows, maybe he'd have to pick between GP and Goku and choose Goku. GP may have served him his whole life, but he's not a friend in the way Goku is.

[Pawn]

We know that Mojito was unhappy with his Supreme Kai and GoD, though, from his bio. Not to mention, in the episode following destruction, he shrugged rather than celebrated.

I also don't think there have been any evil smiles from the Grand Priest at all. The show is portraying him, the Angels and Zenos as sinister, of course, just as it did with Kami and Shin before them. We see them through the eyes of the protagonists. They rightly appear antagonistic, as their power and morality are currently incomprehensible. Like gods throughout mythology, they're so far above everyone else that they appear relatively callous in the face of mortal woes. As long as the Zenos are happy, then the GP is doing his job and thus has every reason to be content. None of his actions so far have been malevolent. If he was manipulating the Zenos into destroying universes, he could have prevented the tournament from happening and let them wipe most of them out instead.

Most importantly, what reason would he and the other Angels have to upset the balance of power when they sit so comfortably atop the food chain?

[Tani Coyote]

27 minutes ago, Pawn said:

We know that Mojito was unhappy with his Supreme Kai and GoD, though, from his bio. Not to mention, in the episode following destruction, he shrugged rather than celebrated.

Something I myself noted earlier above.

He also smiled, though.

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I also don't think there have been any evil smiles from the Grand Priest at all.

That seems a little bit sinister. Not "muhahaha!" but more of a "this is happening and there's nothing you bugs can do about it" kind of way.

We've seen plenty of polite, nice, etc. smiles from Grand Priest. This is the first time we've seen him with a malicious one, from what I remember. Other than a brief moment of anger with Goku and Beerus during the Zen match, he's come off as... well, bubbly? Airheaded? Just smiling and laughing at everything around him.

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Like gods throughout mythology, they're so far above everyone else that they appear relatively callous in the face of mortal woes.

Please tell me we're not going to rubber stamp all this on the basis of "God works in mysterious ways."

We can okay Beerus and co. destroying things because there's an afterlife and it's for the good of the universe.

Unless the multiverse will collapse in on itself or something without erasures, it's hard to paint this as "good" or even neutral without pulling the "God can do no wrong" angle. Pretty much any code of ethics is going to say this is objectively wrong regardless of motives, unless there's some greater good that is so great it justifies it all.

"There are too many universes" doesn't seem to fit that bill.

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As long as the Zenos are happy, then the GP is doing his job and thus has every reason to be content. None of his actions so far have been malevolent.

He seemed just a little bit giddy at wiping out Universe 9, and announcing it was going to happen. It was a serious break from his earlier ambivalence regarding erasure. I don't know if this can chalked up as "just doing his job" anymore.

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If he was manipulating the Zenos into destroying universes, he could have prevented the tournament from happening and let them wipe most of them out instead.

At the end of the day, GP is still just as weak against Zen-Oh anyway else.

Zen-Oh wanted a Tournament and I don't think GP could change that if he wanted to. GP's probably smart enough to know when it's not a good idea to try and change his mind.

Hell, even his disagreement on starting the Tournament immediately was framed as for Zen-Oh's benefit; the fight wouldn't be as spectacular if nobody had the chance to gather a full team.

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Most importantly, what reason would he and the other Angels have to upset the balance of power when they sit so comfortably atop the food chain?

That's what we need to find out.

Worth noting that 6 universes already destroyed plus 7 equals 13, however. It could be coincidence... or, given 13 has already been established as a cosmically-significant number, part of some plot.

Likewise, given the emphasis on Angels, the fact 1/3 of the universes were destroyed seems interesting, given 1/3 is the exact number of Angels said to have rebelled against God.

[Pawn]

27 minutes ago, Lord Liquiir (Ogilvie) said:

Please tell me we're not going to rubber stamp all this on the basis of "God works in mysterious ways."

We can okay Beerus and co. destroying things because there's an afterlife and it's for the good of the universe.

Unless the multiverse will collapse in on itself or something without erasures, it's hard to paint this as "good" or even neutral without pulling the "God can do no wrong" angle. Pretty much any code of ethics is going to say this is objectively wrong regardless of motives, unless there's some greater good that is so great it justifies it all.

"There are too many universes" doesn't seem to fit that bill.

He seemed just a little bit giddy at wiping out Universe 9, and announcing it was going to happen. It was a serious break from his earlier ambivalence regarding erasure. I don't know if this can chalked up as "just doing his job" anymore.

Giddy is not how I'd describe him at all. He was calm. Uncaring, but not giddy.

And boiling everything down to 'God works in mysterious ways' is certainly not what I meant. I was referring to countless myths about godly squabbles that cause natural disasters and death, all because they fail to recognise the impact on the ants around them. We know that Zeno is subject to the whims of child, so there's nothing mysterious about it. My point is that this doesn't have to boil down to "good and evil". Beerus may not be evil, but he has destroyed planets for little more than petty insults and poor food.

As far as the "too many universes" explanation goes, that was Zeno's idea. Would you consider him evil? For all we know, the Grand Priest is making the best of a bad situation and will find a way to spare all or some of the universes. Let's face it -  we know at the very least that U6's team are likely to survive this. The consequences may even be a fake out altogether to facilitate a better show.

[Tani Coyote]

10 minutes ago, Pawn said:

Giddy is not how I'd describe him at all. He was calm. Uncaring, but not giddy.

He may not have been jumping for joy but he seemed fairly keen on grinning as he announced they were out of fighters. A much more sinister grin than we normally see from him.

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I was referring to countless myths about godly squabbles that cause natural disasters and death, all because they fail to recognise the impact on the ants around them.

Those still wouldn't compare because there's an afterlife involved. "Live life like you could die at any moment" is as much a maxim to remember in case there's an afterlife as much as if there isn't. You never know when Zeus' bolt will turn you to ash and it's time to be judged.

Death loses much of its meaning with an afterlife. That's been an issue with Dragon Ball for much of its history.

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My point is that this doesn't have to boil down to "good and evil".

Maybe not "good" and "evil" but certainly "we should take that guy at the top out." In absence of ethics, there's still a survival instinct, and that dictates someone like Zen-Oh's continued presence is undesirable, as he threatens it. If we're not making a Lockean argument about Zen-Oh and co. we can certainly still make a Hobbesian one. They are not "evil," but they are certainly threats, and threats are to be opposed until they are nullified.

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Beerus may not be evil, but he has destroyed planets for little more than petty insults and poor food.

And that's why he's potentially on the chopping block. He may not be evil, but he is incompetent.

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As far as the "too many universes" explanation goes, that was Zeno's idea. Would you consider him evil?

Evil no, recklessly negligent yes. Which doesn't tend to carry as much of a penalty as outright malice, but it carries a penalty all the same. The intent is not evil, but the act is.

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The consequences may even be a fake out altogether to facilitate a better show.

That would be cool but Dragon Ball's pretty good at playing things straight. I wouldn't expect any real plot twists or turns.

While Frieza's thing was surprising, even a broken clock can be right twice. Predictability is the name of the game.

This will all likely build up to a final battle against Jiren and Goku uses Super Balls to save the day as usual.

[Pawn]

23 minutes ago, Lord Liquiir (Ogilvie) said:

That would be cool but Dragon Ball's pretty good at playing things straight. I wouldn't expect any real plot twists or turns.

While Frieza's thing was surprising, even a broken clock can be right twice. Predictability is the name of the game.

This will all likely build up to a final battle against Jiren and Goku uses Super Balls to save the day as usual.

I don't know why people say that DB is predictable. Even if he's not always successful, Toriyama often attempts to add twists and turns to the story:

- Androids 17 and 18 weren't the mass murderers that Trunks warned them about. 16 had no desire to even fight if he didn't have to

- Cell coming from the future to absorb the androids (which was somewhat convoluted)

- When Goku gave the win to Cell and sent his 11 year old son out to fight him

- Goku rarely wins outright. Freeza came back, Cell regenerated from almost nothing, SS3 failed against Kid Buu, Beerus won, Sorbet defeated him with a bloody ray gun

- Hercule's friendship with and influence over Buu

- Beerus defeating Goku but sparing him and the Earth

- Monaka being useless

- Zamasu being Black

- Trunks' time being obliterated despite winning the fight

 

While the series is certainly not particularly complex, I would hesitate to call it predictable. Monaka and Zamasu felt obvious to many including myself, but the series did go to the effort to misdirect with both. I think the same is happening with this arc.

[Tani Coyote]

26 minutes ago, Pawn said:

I don't know why people say that DB is predictable. Even if he's not always successful, Toriyama often attempts to add twists and turns to the story:

Because very often it is. Bad guy seems down, then finds some way to pull ahead again, wash, rinse, repeat.

While the focus is on fights, I can't help but feel the plot is more interesting in the buildup to them.

Like, for example, how Frieza gathers all 7 Dragon Balls, but his ruthlessness means there's no Nameks left to help him use them.    

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- Androids 17 and 18 weren't the mass murderers that Trunks warned them about. 16 had no desire to even fight if he didn't have to

At the same time, it was established Trunks had seriously triggered the butterfly effect the moment he didn't recognize 19 and 20.

They couldn't be mass murderers, though, because if they did, that would basically end the plot. The whole reason Trunks' future was so bleak was because they were so evil they just killed everyone. The only difference would have been Goku lasts longer.

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- Cell coming from the future to absorb the androids (which was somewhat convoluted)

Point there, that was an interesting change of pace to suddenly switch the antagonist and establish 17 and 18 really weren't threats anymore.

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- When Goku gave the win to Cell and sent his 11 year old son out to fight him

Okay, it was nice to see he couldn't defeat him, yes.

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- Goku rarely wins outright. Freeza came back, Cell regenerated from almost nothing, SS3 failed against Kid Buu, Beerus won, Sorbet defeated him with a bloody ray gun

The two Super cases are more interesting. The prior three come back to what I pointed out at the very top; they couldn't just have the villain die because that's not good for drama. Frieza's first return gives way to a much more interesting twist in the form of Future Trunks. Ultimately though, they needed to come back to drag things out.

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- Hercule's friendship with and influence over Buu

Likewise an interesting plot development, I'll grant.

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- Beerus defeating Goku but sparing him and the Earth

Is that really a twist given everyone lives there and Plot Armor would take effect from there on?

Also somewhat predictable given what Beerus wanted was a challenge in the first place. Killing Goku would mean he just deprived himself of future entertainment.

Though I'd say Super's version is more twisty given they're literally saved by him falling asleep as opposed to a conscious decision to spare them.

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While the series is certainly not particularly complex, I would hesitate to call it predictable. Monaka and Zamasu felt predictable to many including myself, but the series did go to the effort to misdirect with both. I think the same is happening with this arc.

I'll give you that, they do surprise us.

It certainly would be a huge surprise if it turned out everyone was just Instant Transmissioned somewhere.

I just have trouble shaking the feeling that won't be so, however.

But hey, credits are a crapshoot. The intro makes it look like Bergamo will last a while, but that was a giant lie. For all we know someone more powerful than Jiren is lurking out there.

[Pawn]

I'm not saying that Goku vs Jiren won't be the big fight. The tournament's end likely won't be so simple, though. Whether it means Gohan will also be one of the last survining and have to help out or Freeza and Frost cook something up or the Zenos change their minds, whatever. Something.

My point wasn't that Dragon Ball is always unpredictable, but that it does attempt to surprise or misdirect the audience now and then. For that reason, a few stares and smiles from the Grand Priest and co just isn't enough convince me some evil plot is afoot.

 

EDIT: I can't remember if this has been brought up here before or not, but one theory is that:

... Goku trains under the Grand Priest at the end of Super. The change of gi suggests a change of mentor and the colours match the GP rather well.

[Meta77]

Honestly that smile by the angel and priest reek evil intent or at least enjoying seeing fear others show in being erased

[Pawn]

Episode 101 spoilers:

Looks like Jiren doesn't eliminate Kale, but simply pacifies her, allowing for an awesome U6/U7 team-up! I'm not sure why "Kelly" rather than Kale has been written in the original preview. Although it could be a new character, I wouldn't bet on it.

[8ther]

So uh..

I have two theories, ether the Grand Priest is evil and is putting his plan into motion, or goku's turning evil, ether way something bad is happening soon.

[Vec]

Well...the last one would explain that look Goku has when he peeks through the Kaio Ken aura near the end of the opening

[8ther]

Or not?...

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/888167954893873152

[Pawn]

I'm not sure why people think there's any chance of Goku going evil? That said, the promotional material could mean anything. Obviously the win isn't just going to fall in U7's laps. Jiren may be far beyond Goku or maybe he loses his stamina before even facing him, prompting him to dig deep for some new power.

[goku262002]

You're reading too much into it, its obvious Herms was in a rush translating it. he really shouldn't rush these kind of things.