Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Pawn]

8 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't know how to do spoiler tags on mobile so I'll just put a warning here before I continue. 

Considering all the complete bullshit DBS has put out I'm surprised Goku not getting another W is the breaking point. Ultra Instinct is not a power up goku has earned through work, training, or through an emotional breaking point or a big character turn or anything that makes a character transforming  interesting in this series. He got it because he's Goku, and he mastered it in less than an hour because goku. Him overpowering Jiren would feel hollow, to me.

This twist isn't out of nowhere because it's been openly telegraphed. I'm pleasently surprised because I expected another plot thread involving a side character to go nowhere.

As I posted in the status updates, I agree that Goku achieving something that not even Beerus could in millennia is success enough. He wins UI, but still has some way to go in life. I like that because it feels more relatable.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

17 minutes ago, Josh said:

I don't know how to do spoiler tags on mobile so I'll just put a warning here before I continue. 

Considering all the complete bullshit DBS has put out I'm surprised Goku not getting another W is the breaking point. Ultra Instinct is not a power up goku has earned through work, training, or through an emotional breaking point or a big character turn or anything that makes a character transforming  interesting in this series. He got it because he's Goku, and he mastered it in less than an hour because goku. Him overpowering Jiren would feel hollow, to me.

This twist isn't out of nowhere because it's been openly telegraphed. I'm pleasently surprised because I expected another plot thread involving a side character to go nowhere.

Spoiler

 

Jiren overpowering everyone has been SIGNIFICANTLY more hollow. Fuck that noise, I'm much more entertained by Goku being Goku than from Jiren being the bland, boring and uninterested slab of wet cement he's been since he first showed up and even moreso ever since his awful backstory was revealed.

And "another W?" The entire point is that Goku hasn't won a SINGLE important fight for the entirety of Super and actually only completely won a single one back in Z since Trunks still had to finish off Frieza for him. And the Buu Saga bent itself over backwards to get Goku to beat Buu due to the whole editor and executive mess that went behind that saga in the first place. That means technically, the last time Goku got an actual victory against somebody that went about naturally and was meant to happen was again Piccolo. PICCOLO. At the end of DRAGON BALL.

No, I'm not okay with different for the sake of different. It's not automatically good and no amount of backpedaling or excuse making can justify it for me. The damage has been done and I certainly won't hear any of that "It's not the destination, it's the journey!" bullshit that Japan loves trying to force into a lot of stories.

Man, FUCK ANIME.

 

That said, I DID enjoy the ride up to this point. Also, it's my birthday, so I'll get over this pretty soon since I have a day to enjoy. ¦D

[DiamondX]

Goku is dodging wins in Super more than Vegeta catches L's.

And that's something.

[DiamondX]

Wait. Wait. Wait.

I need to know something. 

1. Does Jiren jump off since he forgets about Freeza and what's how we win?

2. If they fight, how will Freeza win?!

3. IS THIS A CLIFFHANGER?!

[Pawn]

1 minute ago, DiamondX the Fighter said:

Wait. Wait. Wait.

I need to know something. 

1. Does Jiren jump off since he forgets about Freeza and what's how we win?

2. If they fight, how will Freeza win?!

3. IS THIS A CLIFFHANGER?!

Remember that 17 caught Jiren off-guard, revealing that his defenses can be somehow breached if he is caught unaware. This whole arc the peanut gallery have been screaming "HE LET HIS GUARD DOWN" and even before that, Goku was nearly killed by a simple raygun once he did so. It's all been leading up to this, I suppose.

[Wraith]

42 minutes ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Jiren overpowering everyone has been SIGNIFICANTLY more hollow. Fuck that noise, I'm much more entertained by Goku being Goku than from Jiren being the bland, boring and uninterested slab of wet cement he's been since he first showed up and even moreso ever since his awful backstory was revealed.

And "another W?" The entire point is that Goku hasn't won a SINGLE important fight for the entirety of Super and actually only completely won a single one back in Z since Trunks still had to finish off Frieza for him. And the Buu Saga bent itself over backwards to get Goku to beat Buu due to the whole editor and executive mess that went behind that saga in the first place. That means technically, the last time Goku got an actual victory against somebody that went about naturally and was meant to happen was again Piccolo. PICCOLO. At the end of DRAGON BALL.

No, I'm not okay with different for the sake of different. It's not automatically good and no amount of backpedaling or excuse making can justify it for me. The damage has been done and I certainly won't hear any of that "It's not the destination, it's the journey!" bullshit that Japan loves trying to force into a lot of stories.

Man, FUCK ANIME.

 

That said, I DID enjoy the ride up to this point. Also, it's my birthday, so I'll get over this pretty soon since I have a day to enjoy. ¦D

Spoiler

I think it's disingenuous as hell to imply Goku hasn't won anything since Dragon Ball.

He scraped Nappa. He scraped the Ginyu Force(even fighting two of them at once at one point. Vegeta and Gohan couldn't take ONE of them together). Not counting Frieza because he didn't KILL him even though Frieza had to have his body basically rebuilt after their encounter is just silly. Characters like Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga and Cell weren't solo'd by him but everyone STILL needed his help to do it. 

 The series makes the furthest reaches it can to make sure he took out Buu. He couldn't take out Beerus at first but Beerus has been shaking in his boots this entire arc about how Goku is MOST of the way there. He has the most hype takedown in super with the way he dunked Kefla, but I guess everyone's already forgotten about that along with the rest of the random characters Goku's been flexing on since this arc started.

He doesn't beat Jiren, but he gets to master a technique the gods  haven't gotten a hold on yet after his ass beating instead of just taking the L like everyone else who's taken a beating this arc...

The take away from Dragon Ball Super being "poor Goku" is fucking ridiculous unless you look at the series through the lens of some skewed score tally. 

So yeah, I do prefer this ending because I don't think the alternative would have been that interesting anyway. I don't want Goku to win for the sake of winning. I don't care if he wins. I Boiling it down to "did goku win?" isn't how I roll. It's about HOW he wins.

I prefer a character using their head to win in this series, always. I like the idea of Frieza edging it out with a sneak attack since from the beginning I figured the key to beating Jiren should be using your head since you're never going to be able to catch up with him. 

There are times I would have been fine with Goku beating Jiren. I thought him destroying the ground under his feet with the destructo disc type attack was awesome but that didn't go anywhere. I consider UI an enormous asspull though so I dont care for it.

 

[Pawn]

Let's also not forget that this arc was supposed to be about teamwork. Freeza coming in with the assist is an appropriate conclusion.

[Ratcicle King]

Spoiler

And also let's not forget Freeza was Goku's and Goku's idea only. Everyone else was against it. In a sense, this payoff would count as a victory for Goku, since his bet paid off.

 

[DiamondX]

The thing is I hope they make it make sense.

They need to come with a good reason why Freeza who lost terribly against Toppo can stand up against Jiren.

[Pawn]

Just now, DiamondX the Fighter said:

The thing is I hope they make it make sense.

They need to come with a good reason why Freeza who lost terribly against Toppo can stand up against Jiren.

Like I said before, a raygun took out Goku in RoF. Jiren will be weak enough and/or letting his guard down. Job done.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

40 minutes ago, Josh said:

  Hide contents

He doesn't beat Jiren, but he gets to master a technique the gods  haven't gotten a hold on yet after his ass beating 

 

Spoiler

Frankly, that's what annoys me most about this ending. Jiren finally gets his ass kicked by Goku, only to shove a new technique out of his ass to take down something that the majority of the gods of destruction haven't mastered only for him to get taken down by Frieza with no power ups. It just shows how much of a villain-sue Jiren is when he keeps pulling shit out of his ass to keep dominating even when he's finally meant to be getting his beatdown for all of the shit he did earlier in the arc. 

Not to mention I find it downright dumb that he destroys Mastered UI but a laser blast from Frieza is enough to take him down. I found that shit stupid in Resurrection F when it took down SSB Goku and I still find it stupid here.

 

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

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Frankly, that's what annoys me most about this ending. Jiren finally gets his ass kicked by Goku, only to shove a new technique out of his ass to take down something that the majority of the gods of destruction haven't mastered only for him to get taken down by Frieza with no power ups. It just shows how much of a villain-sue Jiren is when he keeps pulling shit out of his ass to keep dominating even when he's finally meant to be getting his beatdown for all of the shit he did earlier in the arc. 

Not to mention I find it downright dumb that he destroys Mastered UI but a laser blast from Frieza is enough to take him down. I found that shit stupid in Resurrection F when it took down SSB Goku and I still find it stupid here.

 

Quote

That's fair. The "He let his guard down" thing never really made sense to me then. I think Frieza hitting him with enough force to make him fall is fair game though.

 

[DiamondX]

We have to remember that Freeza is really hurt after he tried to take on Toppo and Jiren earlier.

Unless he managed to recover all of his power all of the sudden and Jiren with his guard down is as fragile as Raditz it makes no sense.

[-Robin-]

If your guard's down, you have no defenses propped up. In this series that would include Ki being used as an insulator. 

 

Jiren being completely weakened on top of dropping his defenses to zero, practically anything would be enough to move him.

[dbzfan7]

I may not have mind if Jiren didn't suck so much ass. He's so lame and boring that him winning is like trolling. I'd take friggen Ribrianne over him, and I hate her joke that became old so fast. I'd take Kefla/Duo Saiyan females winning even though I thought they got too many handouts. I'd take the freaking Trio De Dangers winning as at least while generic as pretty much a ton of other villains, they had at least a tiny bit more to set them apart if barely.

I don't feel like "Oh darn Goku lost, man he has a long way to go still." I feel "Oh great the most boring guy in the multi-verse overcame the most hyped up form in years." I ain't sympathizing with Jiren, I ain't angry at him for a story reason. I'm upset he's terrible, generic, and him getting his shit kicked in was a breath of fresh air from his boring rampage.

[Harkofthewaa]

For those that follow TFS's gaming stuff:

Spoiler

Freeza stealing the kill is just retribution for all the times Goku does it. Securing the Kill!

 

[8ther]

Interesting developments here from a recent interview with series director Ryota Nakamura and producer Satoru Takami about Toriyama’s involvement with the Top arc.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/972038504992587776?s=21

Major takeaways from this.

Jiren’s nonexistent personality and genetic backstory is 100% Toriyama’s idea

The saiyan girls weren’t originally Toriyama’s idea, Toei wanted a female Broly so Toriyama made Caulifla to go along with her.

Ribrianne having a humanoid base form was Toei’s idea

The ways in which the U7 fighters were eliminated were all planned out by Toriyama  

Toei’s original plans for Jiren were given to Toppo after Toriyama told them about Jiren’s backstory and behavior 

Takami thinks Toriyama is setting up future stories with the way the final episode will play out.

Appearently, “Something special” will happen at the tail end of the final episode

 

 

[Pawn]

Interesting indeed. I'm not surprised about Jiren's personality, Kale, Ribrianne (since the human form is absent in the manga) or the U7 eliminations. Toei's original idea for Jiren to have Toppo's personality is not something I expected and the last point makes me hopeful for the final episode.

EDIT: It also sounds like UI was not originally planned to be in the tournament, despite what Whis had said before RoF about fighting without thinking (which isn't all that surprising, given how Toriyama builds upon things on the fly and that comment could simply be applied to general skill rather a transformation).

[Meta77]

So maybe frieza makes a wish to be a supreme god cause I don't see how you keep the story going

[Kuzu]

That ending is the most hilarious thing ever.

[Pawn]

5 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

So maybe frieza makes a wish to be a supreme god cause I don't see how you keep the story going

What about:

- The four universes not participating

- The six that were destroyed by Zeno long ago could be brought back

- If the ToP's erased universes do return, then any number of villains could be lying in wait that were either too dangerous for the GoDs to include or are just not discovered/awakened

- A GoD like Geene could be stronger than Beerus and take issue with Goku rivalling their power

- U6 and Planet Sadala. Now that Super Saiyan is out there in that universe, maybe a particularly strong Saiyan could become a problem

 

And any number of new things could be added to the series. I don't understand why people think the series has some kind of limit beyond imagination. Goku's transformations ever increasing is an issue due to over-saturation, but the writers could also concentrate on him fully controlling UI over the course of the next series (not to mention focus on other characters), assuming he can't fully maintain it whenever he wants.

[Meta77]

I say it because of how godly UI is like how does one counter a form that powerful

[Pawn]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I say it because of how godly UI is like how does one counter a form that powerful

Possess UI yourself or, like Kaioken, Super Saiyan and God Ki... it simply fails against someone with more power/skill. With Super including more specialist characters like Hit, Zamasu and Dyspo, hopefully we'll get more antagonists with challenging abilities rather than raw strength triumphing over everything else.

[-Robin-]

Jiren apparently beating Goku anyway is a blessing in the end, because it means UI is not the end-all auto-win ability that makes future antagonists a complete non-threat.

[Meta77]

Well not really cause if gokus making mini universes and jiren was pulls a win will future fights be gurren style? A villians tossing universe everywhere though black hmgoku was the strongest villian as it took erasure to beat him in the end