Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Tani Coyote]

4 minutes ago, Pawn said:

What does bringing 17 back do for the story? Goku can easily wish everyone back himself.

Simple.

We can't let Frieza win because he's a dick, and we can't let Goku win because Super's rule is Goku must always lose for all his power and screentime.

So pull off a literal Deus Ex Machina and have 17 go home with the gold, I guess.

Also works from a character flaw perspective. Since Goku's more concerned with fighting than being good, he may not particularly care about countless innocents if they're not strong. 17 just might, and they keep raising the theme that he's more human and compassionate than he cares to let on (without turning him into pretty boy Vegeta).

Living through the horror of being a human battery presumably does wonders for empathy.

[Pawn]

1 minute ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Simple.

We can't let Frieza win because he's a dick, and we can't let Goku win because Super's rule is Goku must always lose for all his power and screentime.

So pull off a literal Deus Ex Machina and have 17 go home with the gold, I guess.

Also works from a character flaw perspective. Since Goku's more concerned with fighting than being good, he may not particularly care about countless innocents if they're not strong. 17 just might.

Living through the horror of being a human battery presumably does wonders for empathy.

This very episode contradicts that, though. Goku is currently the most likely to wish everyone back after showing how much he values others. Not to mention Vegeta reminded him that his wish to bring U6 back is now in his hands.

Living through the horror of being a human battery didn't raise 17's empathy though, as he's spent this arc learning to give a shit about saving himself or anyone (which seems incongruous with his choice of job and building a family, but whatevs) and marveling at the humanity of others. Yes, the wish could be the end of his character arc, but this was already done with his sacrifice.

[Lamperouge]

That was one of the most badass fights I've seen in Dragon Ball, EVER. 

[Tani Coyote]

22 hours ago, Pawn said:

This very episode contradicts that, though. Goku is currently the most likely to wish everyone back after showing how much he values others. Not to mention Vegeta reminded him that his wish to bring U6 back is now in his hands.

Goku values his friends. That's the issue here.

Granted, given the high correlation between fighting and friendship, it's entirely possible he already sees Bergamo, Kale, Caulifla, Jiren, Toppo, all of them as friends.

I mean shit, if he's willing to be bros with Frieza in spite of knowing how dangerous he is, he clearly has a blurry line between friendship and enmity.

Quote

Living through the horror of being a human battery didn't raise 17's empathy though, as he's spent this arc learning to give a shit about saving himself or anyone

I still think that's Imposter Syndrome.

17 doesn't value himself. He feels he doesn't deserve anyone's warmth or affection.

Of course he's ambivalent about dying personally, because he thinks nobody really needs him.

As for not caring about others, I think that's a facade. The guy literally protects vulnerable animals for a living. While Z established he would still help save the world even if he wanted to stay out of the spotlight. He's a tsundere, not a nihilist.

[DiamondX]

7 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Goku values his friends. That's the issue here.

Granted, given the high correlation between fighting and friendship, it's entirely possible he already sees Bergamo, Kale, Caulifla, Jiren, Toppo, all of them as friends.

I mean shit, if he's willing to be bros with Frieza in spite of knowing how dangerous he is, he clearly has a blurry line between friendship and enmity.

I still think that's Imposter Syndrome.

17 doesn't value himself. He feels he doesn't deserve anyone's warmth or affection.

Of course he's ambivalent about dying personally, because he thinks nobody really needs him.

As for not caring about others, I think that's a facade. The guy literally protects vulnerable animals for a living. While Z established he would still help save the world even if he wanted to stay out of the spotlight. He's a tsundere, not a nihilist.

I wouldn't say Bergamo is a friend since he basically insulted Goku in front of all universes.

[Tani Coyote]

16 minutes ago, DiamondX the Fighter said:

I wouldn't say Bergamo is a friend since he basically insulted Goku in front of all universes.

Considering the racist shit Frieza says about Saiyans all the time yet Goku's able to be chill around him, that seems kind of mild.

Goku also seemed happy to see him again (the same way he seemed happy to see Toppo again), and was still upset at Bergamo's execution.

I guess there's enough care for him between all those things.

[Pawn]

37 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Goku values his friends. That's the issue here.

Granted, given the high correlation between fighting and friendship, it's entirely possible he already sees Bergamo, Kale, Caulifla, Jiren, Toppo, all of them as friends.

I mean shit, if he's willing to be bros with Frieza in spite of knowing how dangerous he is, he clearly has a blurry line between friendship and enmity.

I still think that's Imposter Syndrome.

17 doesn't value himself. He feels he doesn't deserve anyone's warmth or affection.

Of course he's ambivalent about dying personally, because he thinks nobody really needs him.

As for not caring about others, I think that's a facade. The guy literally protects vulnerable animals for a living. While Z established he would still help save the world even if he wanted to stay out of the spotlight. He's a tsundere, not a nihilist.

17 may not place a high value on his own life, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that he feels less deserving than anyone else. Although he gradually changes his view on life, there's no internal conflict or self-doubt on display. Hell, the only times he looked remotely vulnerable were when 18 was eliminated and he refused to coordinate with Gohan. The fact that he looks after animals can only really make sense if it's in honour of 16 and his isolation on an island can go some way to explain why he lacks humanity. Perhaps animals make more sense to him since they're pretty simple by comparison. It's still odd that he managed to build a family though.

As for Goku, I would absolutely not be surprised if he thinks of Bergamo as a friend. He treated Toppo as a buddy, despite the big guy's feelings about the Saiyan. Kale and Caulifla may as well be his students, no matter how much they wanted to beat him up.

[8ther]

[Meta77]

Honestly who came into late super arc saying Boy I can not wait for the pride troopers they are all going to be amazing. Nah all we need is Jiren lol.

Also what is Mexicos deal with frieza. Is he super popular there. Ive been going through MX reaction videos from the streams in the city and everyone starts flipping out yelling frieza when he shows up at the end. Granted that excitment made me smile.

[Waveshocker Sigma]

6 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Honestly who came into late super arc saying Boy I can not wait for the pride troopers they are all going to be amazing. Nah all we need is Jiren lol.

Also what is Mexicos deal with frieza. Is he super popular there. Ive been going through MX reaction videos from the streams in the city and everyone starts flipping out yelling frieza when he shows up at the end. Granted that excitment made me smile.

ALL HAIL LORD FRIEZA!

LONG LIVE THE FRIEZA EMPIRE!

Yeah, I think Frieza to them is like Eggman to us. ¦D

[Tani Coyote]

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapter/dragon-ball-super-chapter-34/6693?read=1

Chapter 34 is up in English.

Consistent with the anime, Bergamo wants to find a way for every universe to survive... annnnd he gets murdered for it.

If nothing else killing him off first in either media form is symbolic in that regard because it makes it seem like everyone surviving would be off the table, but I guess we'll know for sure in a few days.

In addition, the power scaling is very different here. Universe 9 is depicted as a universe that could be legitimately troublesome, but Frost was able to easily defeat them because he went all out from the start. Frieza's defeat of the Trio, meanwhile, is entirely cheap shots rather than exertion.

Should make the fights with the other universes more interesting if it's not "RAWRRR SAIYANS ARE AWESOME!!"

23 hours ago, Pawn said:

17 may not place a high value on his own life, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that he feels less deserving than anyone else. Although he gradually changes his view on life, there's no internal conflict or self-doubt on display. Hell, the only times he looked remotely vulnerable were when 18 was eliminated and he refused to coordinate with Gohan. The fact that he looks after animals can only really make sense if it's in honour of 16 and his isolation on an island can go some way to explain why he lacks humanity. Perhaps animals make more sense to him since they're pretty simple by comparison. It's still odd that he managed to build a family though.

The choice to isolate himself could be to honor 16 but possibly also a view he's no good for other people.

He keeps denying his humanity even when it's obvious he has it, most likely a result of a complex that somehow being turned into a cyborg stripped him of humanity.

The family - and the ambivalence of dying - does not indicate selfishness, but rather than he does not value himself. It's an inference: how could someone who ostensibly loves their family be so content with dying? Easy. He feels they'd be better off without him and their love for him is misplaced.

This isn't an uncommon trope. Hell, I see it in real life all the time. A person willing to shell out kindness but feeling they are undeserving to receive it.

[Ratcicle King]

14 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Honestly who came into late super arc saying Boy I can not wait for the pride troopers they are all going to be amazing. Nah all we need is Jiren lol.

Also what is Mexicos deal with frieza. Is he super popular there. Ive been going through MX reaction videos from the streams in the city and everyone starts flipping out yelling frieza when he shows up at the end. Granted that excitment made me smile.

 

8 hours ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

ALL HAIL LORD FRIEZA!

LONG LIVE THE FRIEZA EMPIRE!

Yeah, I think Frieza to them is like Eggman to us. ¦D

 

It's less of a cultural thing and more them cheering for the heroes. Freeza, for all intents and purposes, was  U7's last hope at that point.

Most reactions I've seen online, all over the globe, had people freaking out when Freeza saved Goku.

And literally everyone losing their collective shit once 17 shows up of course. Heck, one of the mexican live showings had people chanting 17's name.

[Pawn]

I'm disappointed with how Krillin (and Tien of course) was dispatched without even contributing a knockout. The anime may have had more time to give the guy some moments, but would it have killed Toyotaro to give him a win or two? That really sucks. At least Gohan and Piccolo are consistently well-drawn; I'll give him that over the anime.

Also, Frost is an idiot in the manga. Sigh.

[Ratcicle King]

Frost was always shittier in the manga.

Remember, he didn't have a twist in the manga version of U6, he was literally just a well intentioned guy who randomly cheated and became a jerk, with an offhanded remark that he'll probably become more like Freeza after losing to Vegeta.

[DiamondX]

Didn't Frost knock down most U9 fighters?

That's pretty good IMO.

[dbzfan7]

Frost was never good honestly. Would have either just been Freeza or Good Freeza if they went that route. Would have been more interesting for him to be good but even then his entire novelty would wear thin considering what he is for all intents and purposes.

1 hour ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Consistent with the anime, Bergamo wants to find a way for every universe to survive... annnnd he gets murdered for it.

Nah he's basically just doing the typical anime antagonist thing of "Can't we all just be friends" when he is in a bad spot in the manga here. Reverse the situation entirely, and he'd have kicked Piccolo right off no issue. I'll have to rewatch the anime to see the difference there.

[Soniman]

God damn at least Bergamo went out in a flashy way in the anime lol. That and Krillin/Tien actually ringed SOMEONE out before getting out themselves 

[8ther]

 Does Toyotaro have a thing for the Trio?

[DiamondX]

I know this is not a big deal for many of you guys but:

https://www.axn.ro/programe/dragon-ball-super

Dragon Ball Super will air in Romania starting next week.

No idea if it's dubbed or subbed but I'm hyped!

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, Pawn said:

Also, Frost is an idiot in the manga. Sigh.

I mean he's an idiot in the anime too, openly torching his reputation instead of weaving a clever lie like manga Frost did.

He's knockoff Frieza and it shows.

1 hour ago, Ratcicle King said:

Remember, he didn't have a twist in the manga version of U6, he was literally just a well intentioned guy who randomly cheated and became a jerk, with an offhanded remark that he'll probably become more like Freeza after losing to Vegeta.

I interpret it as he was already evil, he just realized it's kind of dumb to reveal your true nature openly. The man knows about publicity and he knew it'd be dumb to come out as evil there.

1 hour ago, DiamondX the Fighter said:

Didn't Frost knock down most U9 fighters?

That's pretty good IMO.

The implication is he was only able to do it because he used up all his power at once, though.

Think how even Gohan could give Frieza a hard time as a kid for a few moments if he just unleashed it all.

Or Hell, how Krillin had his badass moment against Imperfect Cell for a brief moment as well.

The manga's Tournament is highlighting how you can temporarily close a power gap by going all out, but it's smarter to conserve energy and pick people off with cheap shots.

A sharp contrast to how the anime is trying to emphasize conserving energy, but it's basically turned into "character tires out, rests for two minutes, is good as new."

38 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Nah he's basically just doing the typical anime antagonist thing of "Can't we all just be friends" when he is in a bad spot in the manga here. Reverse the situation entirely, and he'd have kicked Piccolo right off no issue. I'll have to rewatch the anime to see the difference there.

We don't know that. He's not given enough development to make an accurate assessment.

Contrast his development in the anime, where he tried to save the universes.

Now sure, you could be cynical and assume he only tried that because he knew Universe 9 was in a desperate situation either way, but hey, that's the fun of psychology: it's impossible to tell a sociopath from a saint with the right projection.

On the other hand, there are signs he's actually a good person. Something as simple as how he respects his gods when his brothers are constantly giving them the finger. The fact he could insult them both with impunity yet chooses not to establishes a character trait.

...or maybe he's polite to keep Sidra from losing his temper and vaporizing his little brothers. Ohohoho.

Gotta love psychology.

[dbzfan7]

40 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

We don't know that. He's not given enough development to make an accurate assessment.

Contrast his development in the anime, where he tried to save the universes.

Now sure, you could be cynical and assume he only tried that because he knew Universe 9 was in a desperate situation either way, but hey, that's the fun of psychology: it's impossible to tell a sociopath from a saint with the right projection.

On the other hand, there are signs he's actually a good person. Something as simple as how he respects his gods when his brothers are constantly giving them the finger. The fact he could insult them both with impunity yet chooses not to establishes a character trait.

...or maybe he's polite to keep Sidra from losing his temper and vaporizing his little brothers. Ohohoho.

Gotta love psychology.

You do when you have followed, dissected, and seen the writing style of Toriyama. Not to mention manga and anime are written by two different people, while Toriyama's outline is obscenely bare when you see his work so that can cloud things even more. Like the Resurrection F script which I have. You can get an idea how someone writes. There is also changes to said writing like Jiren in the manga not really matching up to what Toriyama said he wanted him to be.

Unlike Frost when they thought he was good, Bergamo is not treated as a saint. Even Whis describes his tactic as underhanded, rather than being benevolent in the anime. Not to mention this scenario alone matches up with countless ones in Dragon Ball where the villain pleads to either do good, or work together because they're in a bad spot. His scene with Piccolo especially shows this as it just so happens now when on deaths doorstep he comes out with this idea? Convenient. Kinda like Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon coming up with a similar idea the minute they're in a bad spot.

They're not really good guys, nor really evil. They're more just trying to survive and save themselves. Which is not a bad thing. Then again their universe is labelled "The Underhanded Universe" when reading the universe biographies so.

[Tani Coyote]

16 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

Not to mention this scenario alone matches up with countless ones in Dragon Ball where the villain pleads to either do good, or work together because they're in a bad spot. His scene with Piccolo especially shows this as it just so happens now when on deaths doorstep he comes out with this idea? Convenient. Kinda like Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon coming up with a similar idea the minute they're in a bad spot.

Convenient, maybe.

But a huge step ahead from the simple "we'll work together just me and you" most people give when they're in a bad spot. He'd prefer every universe survive.

TBH, it seems most Tournament participants did not really register the gravity of the situation. They may have liked the idea of a fight, but the consequences did not really sink in in the abstract. Frost is a villain but even he thought the idea of working together with other universes was a possibility. No one really grasps the gravity of it all.

There is a possibility that the situation wouldn't be different.

Which is why Frieza's being a dick is so particularly horrifying. He even comments he seems to be the only one who understands how this Tournament works.

[dbzfan7]

34 minutes ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

Convenient, maybe.

But a huge step ahead from the simple "we'll work together just me and you" most people give when they're in a bad spot. He'd prefer every universe survive.

TBH, it seems most Tournament participants did not really register the gravity of the situation. They may have liked the idea of a fight, but the consequences did not really sink in in the abstract.

There is a possibility that the situation wouldn't be different.

Which is why Frieza's being a dick is so particularly horrifying.

I'm not saying he's an evil villain, he's not. But he's is clearly trying to save his own skin. I doubt he'd rush in to stop another universe from being wiped out if it's not his own. It's clear the whole point of bringing this up...now of all times...is because of the predicament he's in. Before that he doesn't seem to have any problem just fighting without a care. Not to mention they are literally labelled "The Underhanded Universe" as their title, so it's really not out there. He's clearly not Freeza evil, but he's not exactly hero of what is good and just like Toppo neither. I get survivor. Do what it takes to live and self preserve. Not conquer...even if they all literally do villain cackles.

As well as telling Lavender he can "Kill to his hearts content" which is not something ya say when you're looking out for other universes. I like them as minor characters. They're probably the best of the minor characters in this tournament. I DO LIKE THE TRIO. But I like them for who they are. I'd rather like them for who they are than what I want them to be.

[Tani Coyote]

29 minutes ago, dbzfan7 said:

I'm not saying he's an evil villain, he's not. But he's is clearly trying to save his own skin. I doubt he'd rush in to stop another universe from being wiped out if it's not his own. It's clear the whole point of bringing this up...now of all times...is because of the predicament he's in. Before that he doesn't seem to have any problem just fighting without a care. Not to mention they are literally labelled "The Underhanded Universe" as their title, so it's really not out there. He's clearly not Freeza evil, but he's not exactly hero of what is good and just like Toppo neither. I get survivor. Do what it takes to live and self preserve. Not conquer...even if they all literally do villain cackles.

As well as telling Lavender he can "Kill to his hearts content" which is not something ya say when you're looking out for other universes. I like them as minor characters. They're probably the best of the minor characters in this tournament.

Oh I don't think he's a complete hero either. I always saw him as someone who wants to be good, but he lives in a Hell that has taught him that's a good way to get yourself killed. He's strong, but not strong enough to take on the greater order. Similar to how the English dub made it out that Vegeta had the capacity to be good, it's just he lived in a culture that would have seen him rubbed out for doing so. Only after he was out of Frieza's grasp was it possible for him to become a heroic character.

I still think Bergamo legitimately would prefer not seeing any universes Erased though. That he conveniently whipped it out then and there doesn't indicate it's not genuine. Since you cannot guarantee other universes would wish everyone back, it would be logical to be underhanded in trying to win, even if you have good goals.

[Pawn]

1 hour ago, Bergamo (Ogilvie) said:

I mean he's an idiot in the anime too, openly torching his reputation instead of weaving a clever lie like manga Frost did.

He's knockoff Frieza and it shows.

I don't know. I don't blame him for dropping the facade when Vados exposed him. Who would believe him over her? I also think the anime did a good job of differentiating Frost from Freeza, in that he actually admired his counterpart to an extent and showed a lot more cunning when dealing with scrubs and stronger opponents alike. He just fell for Freeza and Gohan's ploy which, to be fair, everybody did.