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Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

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WHY WOULD YOU ALL LIE TO ME AND GET MY HOPES UP that he was going to finally be canon. But if broly can make it and cooler is constantly used in heroes I have hope maybe he can be canon next.

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I don't really see the big deal with the  manga being ahead of the anime since it escaped it's promotional material roots during the Future Trunks Arc.

Now as for the retellings, as someone who never saw BoG or RoF before Super I didn't mind them at all (animation and art quality aside) and depending on when/if Super comes back I probably won't have seen Broly either (especially since I prefer subs) so I would actually miss the retelling. Further, I kind of like the idea of a retelling picking up all of the scrapped content from the three hour storyboard. Additionally a retelling could also waste time showing us a few glimpses of the other characters post ToP both buying Toyotraro more time to set the precedence for what comes next as well as giving the staff even more time to really flesh out the preproduction phase going forward for the optimum quality.

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*hears plot of next saga*

Eh, that sounds kind of cool, I guess.

*learns the arc will center around Buu and Daikaioh of all people*

Okay, yeah, super interested now. I love how new Dragon Ball brings back old lore, even previously minor characters.

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So im wondering if Frieza lives through all this. I honestly feel like he will. I eventually see him getting another power boost. Originally he was stated to be stronger than blue at one point but the form literally drains energy crazy fast so you basically have to do what you need done the first few minutes.

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27 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

Yeah, but it was made crystal clear in the ToP that he fixed that particular flaw. 

I thought the flaw still existed but that he simply was able to hold the form multiple times just not at their peak. Basically a slow drain of 100 percent.

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1 hour ago, Meta77 said:

So im wondering if Frieza lives through all this. I honestly feel like he will. I eventually see him getting another power boost. Originally he was stated to be stronger than blue at one point but the form literally drains energy crazy fast so you basically have to do what you need done the first few minutes.

Spoiler

Freeza does survive this.

It's flat out stated he fixed the flaw, Goku was worried his form's energy problem would drain his time on Earth, like SSJ3 did in the Buu arc, and Freeza stated he did mental training to perfect his energy control.

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1 hour ago, GentlemanX said:

Still hoping the *inevitable* return of the anime covers Broly and uses Toriyama's full script, but really interested in the new arc.

The movie will have a light novel adaptation. Perhaps that will use the full script?

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Had some thoughts on how Migatte no Gokui is handled between the anime and manga (and a few other thoughts) so I'll share it here.

Spoiler

So, I was reading some arguing about which is better, the anime or the manga, and found that no one really made any arguments that I thought were very sound beyond consistent power scaling which means a whole lot of naught to me. That said though, I'm one of the few who actually enjoys both even as I prefer the spectacle of the anime and the anime version of Goku Black in general. That said, I do think that the Manga handled the ToP better beyond a few cut off points that I think is due more to a page count limit than anything else. I mean consider, it went on for ten 45 page chapters, or ten months, that if it had been a tenth month weekly schedule would have netted it an extra 150 or so pages to flesh out a couple of things like Gohan vs. Kefla. That's not even considering some of the narrative advantages that a weekly format could have afforded with exploiting cliffhangers. That said though, Migatte no Gokui was a total disappointment to me in the manga. The fight was mostly too fast to see, and ended with no payoff. Then there were also the thematic differences between the manga and anime.

Now, I've seen the arguments, Goku was just applying all of his life lessons at once vs. Goku shouldn't have needed to be reminded of what he practices in every fight more than enough times to be sick of it, but it isn't what makes the anime themes better to me. Of course to understand what makes the anime themes better to me requires a bit of looking beyond surface value and even beyond what the anime crew might have even intended, but first lets look at what Migatte no Gokui is and why I don't like how the manga handled it.

In principle, Migatte no Gokui is a form of martial arts so high that the practitioner is completely out of the battle themselves while their body fights for them relying entirely on instinctual knowledge and practice of combat and survival techniques accumulated over a lifetime of training and battle. In the manga Goku achieves this by "thinking" on his teachings and life experiences while in the anime he takes a Spirit Bomb to the face. Now, I know it sounds like the manga has the leg up here, but when you see it addressed in the beginning of the next arc that Goku can't use it, not surprising since he can't in the Broly movie either and it never even comes out in any form either, Goku pulling it off by reflecting on his teachings and experiences feels unrealistic and considering the preferred translation of Ultra Instinct and moving by instinct being themes of the technique seems contradictory. It's barely visible performance and lack of spectacle didn't help matters either for my liking and that now brings me to the anime version.

So, spectacle is obviously one thing the anime has going for it with the original Omen appearance and the Kefla fight, but there are the little things that make me enjoy it even more beyond the spectacle. Firstly, though the typically shounen franchise motif of friendship is a bit corny here, the fact that Goku only achieves Omen after the Spirit Bomb and the Mastered state after receiving Vegeta's energy later is a nice little touch when playing with that theme. If you look deeper though there is even more that makes it special to me. Starting with the original appearance of Omen, Goku eats his own Spirit Bomb and is at literally his every limit. He's defeated, his mind is near consciousness is nearly gone, and he's like to die if noting changes. Well, as Migatte no Gokui is about instinct and Goku knows how the Spirit Bomb works, from absorbing the energy to form it to the pure enough being able to reflect it, in a state between consciousness and death with a desperate desire to win and stay alive no less, it can be inferred, staff intention or not, that Goku instinctually absorbed the Spirit Bomb and made it's energy his own. Now, While he's self absorbed investigating this change in himself and testing the offensive capabilities that he's acquired from the power up his instincts focus on dodging the attacks around him allowing him to focus on his thoughts and Jiren being the opponent he has to overwhelm. Instinct becomes a major theme and Goku's divide between thinking about attacking his foe and just letting his body dodge on it's own is further highlighted with his battle with Kefla and the inefficiency of that way of using Migatte no Gokui. Meanwhile, on the side, you have Vegeta attempting to pull it off on his own and not being able to fight in such a way, electing to just fight as he always has, by overwhelming his opponent with his sheer unfaltering offence, his natural and instinctive way of fighting. Now, when Vegeta get's his power up following through with that way of fighting it applies the last hint that Goku will get stronger once he starts attacking instinctively as well. Then Goku completes the friendship boost by getting Vegeta's power when he get's knocked out of the ring and manages the activation of Migatte no Gokui that leads to the mastered state with the thought of Vegeta's plea for Goku's victory being joined by the imagery of Vegeta giving off his energy to Goku. It's a nice follow through on themes of instinct and friendship that also contrasts nicely with Jiren's need for individual strength and not relying on or believing in the strength of others. To me, that follow through of themes is just that much more enjoyable and better plays into Goku not being able to access Migatte no Gokui on his own after the ToP as it feels more natural that he can't just pull off something that required such an extreme situation whenever he wants. in comparison, that he can't pull off a technique he pulled off by applying his own knowledge and prodigious ability just feels disingenuous.

Anyway, asides from that, I really did enjoy the ToP in both the anime and manga and think the 150 or so extra pages a weekly release would have afforded the manga would have made it even better. If I have anymore reason to like the anime version more, it's just I loved seeing Goku trying so hard to give it everything he had left that he was flickering in and out of his Super Saiyan state with his hair literally glowing brilliantly like never before as he pushed himself to use everything he had left.

 

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On 11/15/2018 at 8:21 PM, Ratcicle King said:

Another small detail about Freeza's wish

  Hide contents

They ask him why he doesn't wish for immortality, and he states immortality is kinda useless when you can't do much with it.

Freeza probably realized that being immortal means shit when there's an entire multiverse and pantheon of gods above him in power, contrasting with his original view of him being the top dog of the universe save for a lazy god that he probably didn't expect to wake up for the next couple of centuries and a legendary beast sealed away somewhere in the universe, so back then immortality was just his way of ensuring his reign would last forever, just in the case of someone stronger than him showing up.

 

So basically, kind of like the ambivalence Eggman developed towards Sonic in the Archie comics for a bit. He inferred there were cosmic forces at play and he really couldn't do much about it. He did not give up villainy, he just slowly shifted towards "meh, I'm not even going to really try to kill him anymore. EVERYONE ELSE, HOWEVER..."

Or, for another example, how Aku resigned himself to the fact he and Samurai Jack would probably never defeat each other, so he kind of gave up for a little while.

So Frieza's perspective has changed in light of the fact there are beings far more powerful than him, a being like Zen-Oh whose power goes beyond what everyone else runs on (he doesn't need to use energy, he just wipes things out with a single fist clench), and finally, presumably has inferred immortality would, even if it would prevent him from being destroyed (doubtful), not do anything to close the power gap.

...it's kind of amusing when an antagonist actually finds an in-universe way to grasp Plot Armor. :P

That said, what's to stop the supposedly less dangerous Frieza from plotting some ascent to Godhood himself? Any wish with no limitations, right? So in theory, so long as Zen-Oh doesn't get word of it, there's nothing stopping an "Omni-King Frieza" from being wished into play.

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12 hours ago, DabigRG said:

So, I'm guessin ya'll follow the subs?

Grew up on the dub but when Super debuted made the plunge to subs and find that I drastically prefer the Japanese cast. So yeah, I'm a sub guy, but I'm also following the manga as well.

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4 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Grew up on the dub but when Super debuted made the plunge to subs and find that I drastically prefer the Japanese cast. So yeah, I'm a sub guy, but I'm also following the manga as well.

Okay. 

I just couldn't help but notice last I checked these threads that ya'll are WAY ahead here and with My Hero Academia.

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31 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Okay. 

I just couldn't help but notice last I checked these threads that ya'll are WAY ahead here and with My Hero Academia.

Yeah, MHA I only follow the anime right now since I can't get my hands on the manga in my preferred method so I'm only as far as the end of season 3 there. Dragon Ball on the other hand I already know everything there is a bout the movie and just find myself waiting to actually see it subbed. Hopefully unlike BoG and RoF I don't end up just waiting for a retelling to actually see the events of it.

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On 11/19/2018 at 10:19 PM, DabigRG said:

So, I'm guessin ya'll follow the subs?

Well, I like the japanese cast. But the dub here was so well made and became so popular in the region that, if possible, I prefer to watch it in LA spanish.

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