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Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

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6 hours ago, DiamondX said:

So they already dubbed Blizzard.

Every movie song so far ( Hero, Pledge of Z, and now Blizzard) has an english version done and sung by the same person who did the original, most likely for international release.

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A little off topic, but while I've seen numerous people bothered by Gogeta reminding them too much of Vegito, I can actually say that I'm rather glad that he reminds me of Vegito. That was one of my few hopes for the movie when I found out that Gogeta was going to be in the movie is that he would effectively just e a Metamoran Vegito and it sounds like that is the case so that makes me happy. I know some people prefer the different fusion types to have different personalities, but as a Toriyama fan (all his flaws, mistakes, and retcons all) that never say right with me and how he always keeps things simple.

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Now, on to another matter that's been eating at me.
I know a lot of people don't want a retelling of Broly should Super return to television, but between making use of the cut storyboard content and providing an easier access sub version for fans like myself in the states, there is another thing I've been pondering about; could a retelling be used to reconcile Minus and Bardock: Father of Goku?
Now that may seem like an odd question, but I expect a retelling if told to reconnect Toei continuity in general such as Blue Kaio-ken/Evolution as well as showing what the other ToP competitor's reactions to Broly's insane power being on Earth and don't see why they couldn't reconcile Minus and Father of Goku. I mean to put it simply, from Minus we know that Bardock and Gine end up together simply because Gine's softness and constant need for rescue from Bardock had an effect on him whenever she was on one of squads, but did it ever specifically say he did not serve with different squad compositions? Now, also consider the problem of presenting Bardock as the only Saiyan smart enough to figure out that Freiza is up to something. That problem can be resolved and also again highlight why Zarbon and Dodoria are so high ranking in the Freiza force by having them weed out the suspicious by sending them on trap missions to wipe them out earlier so that way Freiza isn't ousted since you have a whole month from the Saiyan recall and Planet Vegeta's destruction. If it were to be played like that you could show numerous Saiyan's that Bardock fought beside as well as still have his squad get wiped out before his infamous rebellion without sacrificing what Minus put together either.
Maybe I'm just dreaming, but I don't see why not when Toei already sneaks in as much of it's content when it can anyways and Bardock: Father of Goku is a beloved part of the franchise that really can still exist side by side with Minus with just some small tweaks. On top of that, I think doing a reconciliation like I describe above would make the Saiyan's on a whole look less foolish, more afraid of Freiza, make Zarbon and Dodoria really stand out more, and make Bardock's team even more awesome since such a setup would imply that they also have their doubts and are a perceived by Zarbon and Dodoria threat to Freiza's plans. Well, those are my thoughts anyway and was wondering if anyone else felt the same or can at least see where I am coming from.

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I honestly do not see many upset at all over the retocon besides those fans of z that watched only that during its toonami run and know noting outside of z.  I think it be nice if we were more like japan. They are hyping the movie up and accept the changes on the go. We here need to have a 10 page book trying to explain why we need to accept it.

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Plenty of the more invested fans have a lot to hate about Minus. I for one hate that it destroys the themes found in the Saiyan arc. It also portrays the Saiyans through a more kid friendly lens, and I hate that. The Saiyans were evil, full stop. Goku was the exception to the rule by pure happenstance. He was sent to Earth to destroy it, but through a twist of fate he becomes its savior. What's more, he was low class trash, but grew stronger and succeeded in spite the class based structure Saiyan society was built around. The Saiyan arc really added to Goku as a character, and now all of that is gone because Goku is not some low class trash sent to a backwater planet to do a trash job. No, he's the special love child of some better natured Saiyans who sent him to Earth for his own safety. It's bad, fanfic level bull shit.

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Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been seeing is a lot of the source of the discontent. Strangely for me though, Dragon Ball has never pulled me in thematically so much as it has by it's characters with Namek still being my favorite part of the entire franchise.  As a result I'm typically more forgiving of Dragon Ball than I probably should be, but I can't really help when I'm still so entertained even when my favorite character changes personality by the arc (Gohan fan here 😅).

All of that said, I still personally feel that at least Minus and Father of Goku could be mostly reconciled by a TV anime retelling, even if the messages of the Saiyan Arc can't be.

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Yea we can think that but at the end of the day its the creators well creation and if he wants to change it he can. The fact some fans try and equate it to fan fic is silly. I always find it funny fans try to think they know a series better than the person creating it.

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Gogeta may be a little more chipper than he was in Fusion Reborn, but he still feels different to Vegetto. Vegetto doesn't miss the chance to trashtalk if he can, whereas Gogeta seems to be focused on the endgame. Here, he only powers up as much as he needs to to keep ahead of Broly while not risking a reduced time limit, and when Broly catches up in power, Gogeta immediately powers up further with no hesitation to keep the fight in his control.

 

Gogeta's more animated, but he's still very serious.

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22 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Yea we can think that but at the end of the day its the creators well creation and if he wants to change it he can. The fact some fans try and equate it to fan fic is silly. I always find it funny fans try to think they know a series better than the person creating it.

Toriyama is notoriously forgetful. He forgot Lunch existed, he forgot No. 18 had blonde hair, etc. If you think Toriyama is beyond trampling over his previous work, you're just wrong. 

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Plenty of things are true about every series that most people can agree shouldn't be. We know it's Toriyama's decision, it's still a poor decision. The man has made hundreds of them ever since he started the series, there's nothing more defensible about Minus being the main-continuity backstory for Goku than there is about Toriyama shrinking the scope of the setting, writing all the strategy and mystique out of the battles or never planning anything out beforehand. The only difference is we know what we're missing way more because the Bardock Special was good.

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Most creators are free to change their creations so Toriyama really isn't an exception good or bad, nor the only one who has received flak for it. I think what makes Toriyama stand out so much is the frequency with which he retcons his own work and whether or not one follows his work for his world and characters or for his particular writing style. As someone who kind of follows for all three it puts me in the unique position of having to accept what he puts out, but since I rarely dislike anything he does I'm of the particularly lenient crowd. That isn't to say that I don't recognize when he makes an unnecessary mess out of things, but if his storytelling style and characters still entertain me I'm definitely less likely to be critical than others. Really, when it comes to Toriyama, the problem with being a fan of his work is that he is Toriyama and you just know he's going to do something so daft at some point or another, and not just once, that trying to reconcile it with what he has done before will stress you out to no end. As I've said before, I'm a Gohan fan and everyone knows what Gohan has done and not done just in the original manga so it's not like I think everything Toriyama does is great. Though, I do think that most of the depth that the franchise has is mostly accidental since he is a gag artist more so than a rich lore aficionado which means his concern for deeper lore and meaning really is only for the sake of a throw away gag. Now that's a total shame as well since he did manage to create a very engaging and indepth universe writing from the seat of his pants while trying to find shortcuts to his work and how to squeeze in as many gags as possible. As I said above, sometimes the problem with being a fan of Toriyama's work is being a fan of Toriyama's work simply because it's Toriyama.

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Just because it's canon doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize it. You original post would imply I should just shut and accept what's being made. No, if something is bad, I'm going to point it out, and it's going to remain shitty writing regardless of whether or not it's canon, and this only reflects poorly on the franchise as whole. Eventually if enough good is taken out, and enough bad is put in, Dragon Ball as a whole will suck. Criticizing bad decisions now will potentially circumvent more shitty writing in the future, so it needs to be done. 

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6 minutes ago, ThePrinceOfSaiyans said:

Just because it's canon doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize it. You original post would imply I should just shut and accept what's being made. No, if something is bad, I'm going to point it out, and it's going to remain shitty writing regardless of whether or not it's canon, and this only reflects poorly on the franchise as whole. Eventually if enough good is taken out, and enough bad is put in, Dragon Ball as a whole will suck. Criticizing bad decisions now will potentially circumvent more shitty writing in the future, so it needs to be done. 

 

Yea, but this implies your word has any sway in the direction of the series.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

Yea, but this implies your word has any sway in the direction of the series.

Mine as an individual doesn't, but if enough people make a stink about something, it can help. Take the Gohan controversy during the build up to Battle of Gods for example. Enough people made a stink about Gohan using Super Saiyan, and that was fixed as a result, well, for the most part. He still uses Super Saiyan during the Super Saiyan God ritual, but we don't really know how Gohan's Ultimate state works, so whatever. 

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5 minutes ago, ThePrinceOfSaiyans said:

Mine as an individual doesn't, but if enough people make a stink about something, it can help. Take the Gohan controversy during the build up to Battle of Gods for example. Enough people made a stink about Gohan using Super Saiyan, and that was fixed as a result, well, for the most part. He still uses Super Saiyan during the Super Saiyan God ritual, but we don't really know how Gohan's Ultimate state works, so whatever. 

Yea, but in this case, I really haven't seen much stink about Minus or Bardock. It definitely feels like a vocal minority of fans who hate it and definitely not a universal opinion. And even despite that, Toriyama is still trying to make it work within this movie. But the same minority of fans are "NO FUCK MINUS REEEE"  and not even trying to give it a chance. 

 

Like, I don't even care much about Minus if I'm perfectly honest, but I'm at least willing to see how Toriyama re-imagines it in this movie. Being in a feature length film is kind of different than being a 13 page epilogue side story in an obscure manga.

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I mean, expanding on it isn't really the issue. Minus's biggest problem is what it does to the themes present in the Saiyan arc. No amount of expanding on Minus will fix what's been done because Goku being sent to Earth by his parents is part of the original Minus chapter. Goku can't be a low-class outcast that was sent to Earth to destroy it if he was the special love child of better natured Saiyans who sent Goku to Earth for his own safety.  People who like Minus either overlook this, or don't care that some really good writing that really added to Goku's character has been undone in favor of worthless fan service like being able to meet Goku's mom. Also, I have no idea where the majority of fans stand on Minus. I see plenty of hate and plenty of apologism.

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3 minutes ago, ThePrinceOfSaiyans said:

I mean, expanding on it isn't really the issue. Minus's biggest problem is what it does to the themes present in the Saiyan arc. No amount of expanding on Minus will fix what's been done because Goku being sent to Earth by his parents is part of the original Minus chapter. Goku can't be a low-class outcast that was sent to Earth to destroy it if he was the special love child of better natured Saiyans who sent Goku to Earth for his own safety.  People who like Minus either overlook this, or don't care that some really good writing that really added to Goku's character has been undone in favor of worthless fan service like being able to meet Goku's mom. Also, I have no idea where the majority of fans stand on Minus. I see plenty of hate and plenty of apologism.

Hence why I said it's a vocal minority, I'm fairly certain a lot of people straight up don't care (like myself)

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I think again as I said above, one of the problems with a lot of the depth that Dragon Ball has is that it was accidental and Toriyama never cared to really capitalize on it. That's no excuse to be fair, but I do believe that Raditz at least still brings some of the weight to the Saiyan Arc still as he has the same parents as Goku but still ended up the way he did. The distinction between being a proper Saiyan and an Earthling raised Saiyan is still fairly prominent if one explores the character of Raditz. It's unlikely that that will ever happen, but I think Raditz's very existence might be part of what keeps me from having the Saiyan Saga as damaged in my mind as others.

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Sure, a lot of Toriyama's "genius" is accidental. I'm almost certain the stuff in the Saiyan arc is, given Toriyama oh so carelessly trampled over it with Minus. Still, it doesn't make it any less aggravating. Minus is one of the reasons I wish Dragon Ball didn't have some grand return, because now some of its better qualities are being stripped away. 

7 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Hence why I said it's a vocal minority, I'm fairly certain a lot of people straight up don't care (like myself)

Perhaps, but most people didn't care that Gohan was a Super Saiyan in one of the trailers for Battle of Gods, yet it was fixed anyway. Granted, that's a fairly minor change when compared to an entire story beat.

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Frankly, having this conversation about Minus with you @ThePrinceOfSaiyans actually makes me wonder if Raditz's potential to reconcile Minus and the Saiyan Arc is part of the reason I've seen so many people wanting Raditz to get some focus after all of this time. I mean they could just be Raditz fans who were hyped after his cameo in that one Kuririn ep, but I do think that it is a possibility. Honestly speaking though, as much as I love Toriyama's writing style I would rather honestly not have Toriyama himself write it just so he doesn't make a bigger mess than he already has. For me maybe letting Toyotaro handle it with his supervision would work out best but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter as well.

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Eh, I like Raditz as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure what you could do with a Planet Vegeta era Radtiz.

Spoiler

I do know Raditz is made aware that Goku was sent to Earth by Gine, but admits he wasn't given any details, which is why he thinks he was sent on a routine mission in this new movie. So that's something I guess. 

 

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Veronica Taylor will be voicing Ribrianne in the dub. That’s right,  the original voice actress for Ash Ketchum will be voicing a Dragon Ball character...

 

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7 hours ago, Jiren (Metro) said:

Veronica Taylor will be voicing Ribrianne in the dub. That’s right,  the original voice actress for Ash Ketchum will be voicing a Dragon Ball character...

 

That's great! Rachel Lillis and I wanna say one other VA was in Hunter X Hunter.

Good to see such stars from 4kids still get spots.

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