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Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

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3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Don't sound too excited now

Agreed, at best i’m expecting there to be slightly more episodes with the animation quality of 130, but not all.

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Kale is the literal fucking worst. Why would I want fucking Fluttershy in my "punching people in the face" anime; and worse, one who transforms into someone who is basically name checked as possibly being (and acting fully like) the bad Broly every time she's ignored for being too useless in the "punching people in the face" anime.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Caulifla, however, is excellent. Super Saiyan Revy, pretty much.

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I didn't like Kale that much either but I'd take her over lady Goku, personally. Those characters left a lot to be desired overall and that's even grading on the curve of them being Dragon Ball characters.

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I'm not against the inherit idea of Kale - a meek saiyan who has untapped power due to built-up rage, similar to Gohan, but I think the execution is fucking ridiculous. I think if they'd given Kale enough time to build up a proper insecurity during the ToP and gave Caulifa a lot more time to develop into not being around to protect her constantly, then maybe she could run with the idea that Goku has stolen Caulifa away from her, but as is in the anime - literally Caulifia fights with him for all of five minutes, Goku acts like a slight bit of a dick, and that's enough to fucking murder him I guess.

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3 hours ago, Tornado said:

Kale is the literal fucking worst. Why would I want fucking Fluttershy in my "punching people in the face" anime; and worse, one who transforms into someone who is basically name checked as possibly being (and acting fully like) the bad Broly every time she's ignored for being too useless in the "punching people in the face" anime.

 

Yee! Strong opinions there, I see. 

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

I didn't like Kale that much either but I'd take her over lady Goku, personally. Those characters left a lot to be desired overall and that's even grading on the curve of them being Dragon Ball characters.

Lady Goku...uh, Caulifla or is there another character?

2 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

I'm not against the inherit idea of Kale - a meek saiyan who has untapped power due to built-up rage, similar to Gohan, but I think the execution is fucking ridiculous. 

That generally my thought too.

Helps that I went in thinking Caulifla was the Berserker Super Saiyan(?) until literally the moment she encouraged Kale to try transforming as well. Which just kinda came out of nowhere with or without her brief appearance in the intro, mind.

2 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 I think if they'd given Kale enough time to build up a proper insecurity during the ToP and gave Caulifa a lot more time to develop into not being around to protect her constantly, then maybe she could run with the idea that Goku has stolen Caulifa away from her, but as is in the anime - literally Caulifia fights with him for all of five minutes, Goku acts like a slight bit of a dick, and that's enough to fucking murder him I guess.

Yeah, I thought the way that was done was rather, for lack of a nicer word, flimsy.

 

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I don't necessarily dislike Kale, but she's a lot less versatile of a character than Caulifla. I haven't watched the Japanese version, just the dub (haven't watched tonight's episode yet), so I can't speak to any remaining appearances in the ToP, but she's just been very pigeon holed into specific character points. She's devoted to Caulifla, she's clingy, she doesn't like other people being with Caulifla, she gets jealous. If she can't have more diverse reactions to other characters, she's going to come off as one note. Seeing how Vegeta or Freeza react to another character and how they bounce off them makes them more rounded characters that we have more interest seeing more of in the future. Now, to be fair, there's nothing right now to say that Kale and Caulifla will show up again at some point, but being from Universe 6 they at least stand a chance. At the moment, Kale reminds me a lot of say Chiaotzu, all of her actions are focused on her relationship with Caulifla like how Chiaotzu's actions, after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai anyway, pertained to his relationship with Tenshinhan. It stunts their potential for more varied interactions and I hope they try something different with her if she shows up again.

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10 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

 I haven't watched the Japanese version, just the dub (haven't watched tonight's episode yet), so I can't speak to any remaining appearances in the ToP, but she's just been very pigeon holed into specific character points. 

That's how I've been doing it as well, hence the attempt for discretion.

10 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

I don't necessarily dislike Kale, but she's a lot less versatile of a character than Caulifla. she's just been very pigeon holed into specific character points. She's devoted to Caulifla, she's clingy, she doesn't like other people being with Caulifla, she gets jealous. If she can't have more diverse reactions to other characters, she's going to come off as one note. 

Yeah, that's a pretty accurate sum up.

Granted, I don't there's too much necessarily wrong with characters who are primarily concerned with an-/each other, but Kale really is lacking in much characterization beyond her fearful nature and jarring transformation.

10 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

At the moment, Kale reminds me a lot of say Chiaotzu, all of her actions are focused on her relationship with Caulifla like how Chiaotzu's actions, after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai anyway, pertained to his relationship with Tenshinhan. It stunts their potential for more varied interactions and I hope they try something different with her if she shows up again.

The difference is that Chiaotzu at least has a different appearance, race(?), & abilities as well as his history with Crane to distinguish him. So if they were to ever put him in the limelight again, they fall back and draw from, like they've been doing with other characters. 

I mean, Kale's definitely cute(when she's not roided out anyway) and acts definitely from the bulk of the cast, but otherwise, she's just another Saiyan.

 

 

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You can't say her relationship with cauliflower stunts her interactions when this was her first and only arc and so that relationship served as the introductory subplot for her development. Maybe future arcs that criticism can be valid if she appears again but not  now really 

Anyway I like Kale. But I'm always a sicker fir shy and reserved characters becomming more assertive and confident over time. The Broly aspect is more or less phased out when she gets her (great looking) controlled form anyway 

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21 minutes ago, Soniman said:

You can't say her relationship with cauliflower stunts her interactions when this was her first and only arc and so that relationship served as the introductory subplot for her development. Maybe future arcs that criticism can be valid if she appears again but not  now really 

Anyway I like Kale. But I'm always a sicker fir shy and reserved characters becomming more assertive and confident over time. The Broly aspect is more or less phased out when she gets her (great looking) controlled form anyway 

Its valid because its her introduction. It serves to establish to the audience who this character is and why the audience should care about them.

And in Kale's introduction, she is almost defined entirely by her dynamic with Caulifa and nothing else. Calling her one note is perfectly valid if that's all the audience knows about the character now.

Yea, this can change in the future but I doubt she'll make any more prominent appearances given her main character arc was resolved, and we have a new Broly to expand  on her concept.

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Her introduction is literally about her relationship with Caulifla and how she changes based on that, you can argue it's quality but that's the story her character is telling in the Tournament of Power of Arc and that in and of itself is fine. She didn't meaningfully interact with some rando because it wasn't relevant in that arc plus an arc where everyone is trying to kill each other wouldn't be a appropriate place for it anyway 

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5 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Her introduction is literally about her relationship with Caulifla and how she changes based on that, you can argue it's quality but that's the story her character is telling in the Tournament of Power of Arc and that in and of itself is fine. She didn't meaningfully interact with some rando because it wasn't relevant in that arc plus an arc where everyone is trying to kill each other wouldn't be a appropriate place for it anyway 

The main point is that she's one note, and the general consensus is that her arc was poorly executed in quality. 

 

I don't really have much reason to care about her personally; she's a poorly handled character overall with no real meaningful relationships with  anybody else. Which I could forgive if she had a cool fighting style, but she's just ripping off Broly.

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12 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The main point is that she's one note, and the general consensus is that her arc was poorly executed in quality. 

 

I don't really have much reason to care about her personally; she's a poorly handled character overall with no real meaningful relationships with  anybody else. Which I could forgive if she had a cool fighting style, but she's just ripping off Broly.

I don't care about the general census, if you think she sucks I can't really change that. I'm literally just saying the choice to focus on her relationship with Caulifla for her introductory arc wasn't a bad one regardless of actual execution. Bringing up the Chaotzu point earlier what if for his first arc instead of focusing on his relationship with Tien they instead choose Killin for whatever reason but they still tried to imply the former was basically like a brother to him and the two were inseparable. It'd come off as muddy and unfocused.

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2 minutes ago, Soniman said:

 

I don't care about the general census, if you think she sucks I can't really change that. I'm literally just saying the choice to focus on her relationship with Caulifla for her introductory arc wasn't a bad one regardless of actual execution. Bringing up the Chaotzu point earlier what if for his first arc instead of focusing on his relationship with Tien they instead choose Killin for whatever reason but they still tried to imply the former was basically like a brother to him and the two were inseparable. It'd come off as muddy and unfocused.

It depends on the intentions of the arc. If the arc isn't about Tien and Chaotzu, why shouldn't the latter be able to interact with Krillin? It's not like the audience doesn't ready know about their relationship, so it doesn't really need to be reinforced unless that's what the story was about.

 

Kale being one note would be fine if she were a supporting character like Chaotzu, but she's given a fair amount of spotlight so it just highlights how boring she is. Her arc itself being bad is just adding insult to injury.

To highlight how one note she is, Kefla is mostly Caulifa in looks and personality with few traits of Kale in her.

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I just prefer the intentional focus on the dynamic between two characters that serves as growth to some degree instead of a bunch of meaningless ones that don't amount to anything. Like I said if you think she's bad that's fine. I just don't and I don't think her arc was the worst thing in the show, let alone Super. 

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I don't think whether or not she trades one liners with other characters is what makes her one note. I think this discussion is both putting too much emphasis on that and kind of giving Dragon Ball's characters too much credit. They're all pretty simple. 

For me I just wanted more personal development from Kale before her personality got buried by Kefla. I thought the angle they had was good even if directly tying her to Broly was pretty lazy. I like the idea of a Saiyan who doesn't like to fight and a pair of Saiyans who have a strong bond that they bring into battle instead of constantly trying to one-up each-other. It might have been grounds enough for Goku and Vegeta to reconsider some things...had Goku not been able to easily dunk them off solo.

They just weren't the focus of the arc, which was a letdown because most of the characters the actual arc wanted to focus on were far less interesting.

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58 minutes ago, Soniman said:

Her introduction is literally about her relationship with Caulifla and how she changes based on that that's the story her character is telling in the Tournament of Power of Arc. 

Like I said, a character being primarily known isn't necessarily bad in theory, but there generally does need to be something else notable about them and/or that relationship.

 

1 hour ago, Soniman said:

 She didn't meaningfully interact with some rando because it wasn't relevant in that arc plus an arc where everyone is trying to kill each other wouldn't be a appropriate place for it anyway

Uh...not really?

Idk, if anything, I feel like she could've been benefited more from suddenly being in a different setup with a bunch of other fighters.

As a matter of fact, that sorta presents a prompt of how her character overall could've been better utilized.

23 minutes ago, Soniman said:

 

I don't care about the general census, if you think she sucks I can't really change that. I'm literally just saying the choice to focus on her relationship with Caulifla for her introductory arc wasn't a bad one regardless of actual execution. Bringing up the Chaotzu point earlier what if for his first arc instead of focusing on his relationship with Tien they instead choose Killin for whatever reason but they still tried to imply the former was basically like a brother to him and the two were inseparable. It'd come off as muddy and unfocused.

Isn't that what he was originally--a rival for Krillin? I'm going off what I skimmed from the wiki once, mind.

That's essentially in line with at least my point--yes, Chiaotzu is seemingly primarily concerned with interacting with, but he has a few other traits and had memorable moments to distinguish him more. Heck, even your hypothetical about him alternatively befriending Krillin would've likely gotten him more screentime and development.

Back to Kale though, I do maintain that her character really just needs more exercise beyond the tangential vignettes she(and Caulifla for that matter) has gotten and I'm hoping this conversation isn't an indication that she doesn't get to do anything notable in coming episodes now that she's under control.

27 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

To highlight how one note she is, Kefla is mostly Caulifa in looks and personality with few traits of Kale in her.

:confused: 

 

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23 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't think whether or not she trades one liners with other characters is what makes her one note. I think this discussion is both putting too much emphasis on that and kind of giving Dragon Ball's characters too much credit. They're all pretty simple. 

For me I just wanted more personal development from Kale before her personality got buried by Kefla. I thought the angle they had was good even if directly tying her to Broly was pretty lazy. I like the idea of a Saiyan who doesn't like to fight and a pair of Saiyans who have a strong bond that they bring into battle instead of constantly trying to one-up each-other. It might have been grounds enough for Goku and Vegeta to reconsider some things...had Goku not been able to easily dunk them off solo.

They just weren't the focus of the arc, which was a letdown because most of the characters the actual arc wanted to focus on were far less interesting.

Yea, this is the biggest gripe. Her character is fine...its just not that interesting.

It's just an abridged version of Gohan's arc, and then she gets used as fusion fodder.

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I brought up Chiaotzu because after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai he was essentially an accessory to Tenshinhan's character. In his initial arc, Chiaotzu was quirky, got on Krillin's nerves, was dumb, was morally conflicted by what his friend wanted and what his master wanted, and had a somewhat unique move set and design (even if the Dodonpa was mainly there to introduce the connection to Taopaipai).

After that arc though? He helps Tenshinhan find Dragon Balls, dies doing what Tenshinhan asks him to do, gets hurt off screen to motivate Tenshinhan, dies again to protect Tenshinhan, and worries about Tenshinhan fighting Cell. The closest he gets to being his own character is making the trip down Serpent Road with the others.

Kale is distinct in that a lot of her actions during the Tournament of Power focus on her learning about and controlling her power, but it all centers around pleasing or keeping Caulifla to herself. I just don't find that interesting for a character that has the potential to become reoccurring, because it connects her too much to Caulifla and limits what she can do.

Now, if she changes substantially that could work. And if she only appears in this arc and she doesn't get revisited often, then this being her story is fine. But I worry this is their introduction arc and that we can expect to see more of them and this is just her one schtick. I don't need her to be Caulifla's cheerleader/damsel in distress until she gets jealous - that's not interesting to me.

Again I don't roll my eyes or anything when she's on screen, I just wish she had more agency.

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4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

It kinda needs to exist in Universe 7 in order to be destroyed there.

...it did exist in U7 though? It was the original home planet of the Saiyans before they conquered Planet Plant (which became Planet Vegeta).

It was destroyed by the warring nature of the Saiyans and they had to relocate to a different planet, but it did, at one point, exist.

Also I gotta say, the Broly movie is my favorite DB movie thus far. I hope it leads up to some interesting followup stories/lore in the series.

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Just checking in here to tell y'all to stay the fuck away from that "30th anniversary remastered" release. It's absolute shite. A 4:3 crop of a 16:9 crop with blown-out contrast and aggressive horrible DNR. It's a total joke and an insult in trying to tempt the hardcore fanbase with a supposedly "better" remaster than the shitty Blu rays and orange bricks, while somehow possibly being the worst-ever release of the show.
http://www.framecompare.com/image-compare/screenshotcomparison/YPYGNNNX

 

In addition, please spread this video around as much as possible and DO NOT TOLERATE Funi's shitty decisions with the release.

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