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Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

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On 10/8/2019 at 7:11 PM, DabigRG said:

So what did ya'll think of the Tournament of Power?

Highlights, low points? Favorite characters, least favorite characters? Great ideas, missed opportunities?

That sorta spiel and maybe more.

I didn't really like Super in general, but I especially didn't like the Tournament of Power. I actually dropped it, and only picked it up again to watch Goku vs Jiren. One thing I really didn't like about it was the wish part at the end. Like I know this is a shounen for children, but hypothetically, what if someone wished for something selfish and didn't bring all the other universes back. That "being virtuous" plot device was garbage (corny). What was even the point of putting it in there?

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1 hour ago, honey-dew said:

I didn't really like Super in general, but I especially didn't like the Tournament of Power. I actually dropped it, and only picked it up again to watch Goku vs Jiren. One thing I really didn't like about it was the wish part at the end. Like I know this is a shounen for children, but hypothetically, what if someone wished for something selfish and didn't bring all the other universes back. That "being virtuous" plot device was garbage (corny). What was even the point of putting it in there?

Well, it's as it says on the tin, it was a test to see if the universes themselves were still worthy of existing. The Zen'Os lost faith in the mortals, and wanted to see if the mortals were still worthy of existence. That's meant to be the explanation.

If you want the reason think it's there, I personally think it's because they realised how many people will despise Zen'O from this point. Hell, they already got an idea of it after the atrociously awful ending to the Trunks arc, so it was likely thrown in as a last minute "we didn't reaaaaally want to erase the universes permanently" to stop everyone from hating them.

Didn't do shit for me, though. They're both extremely irritating IMO.

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Okay, I just found out that Super was meant to be on an eight month break to prepare for the New Broly movie. Is this true and/or still in effect?

22 hours ago, honey-dew said:

I didn't really like Super in general, but I especially didn't like the Tournament of Power. I actually dropped it, and only picked it up again to watch Goku vs Jiren. 

Oh wow, really?

22 hours ago, honey-dew said:

One thing I really didn't like about it was the wish part at the end. Like I know this is a shounen for children, but hypothetically, what if someone wished for something selfish and didn't bring all the other universes back. That "being virtuous" plot device was garbage (corny). What was even the point of putting it in there?

 

21 hours ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

Well, it's as it says on the tin, it was a test to see if the universes themselves were still worthy of existing. The Zen'Os lost faith in the mortals, and wanted to see if the mortals were still worthy of existence. That's meant to be the explanation.

If you want the reason think it's there, I personally think it's because they realised how many people will despise Zen'O from this point. Hell, they already got an idea of it after the atrociously awful ending to the Trunks arc, so it was likely thrown in as a last minute "we didn't reaaaaally want to erase the universes permanently" to stop everyone from hating them.

Didn't do shit for me, though. They're both extremely irritating IMO.

Well that and/or the fact that it'd be a shame to throw away so many characters like that.

(which isn't to say most of them weren't anyway, but still)

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On 10/16/2019 at 8:16 PM, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

Well, it's as it says on the tin, it was a test to see if the universes themselves were still worthy of existing. The Zen'Os lost faith in the mortals, and wanted to see if the mortals were still worthy of existence. That's meant to be the explanation.

If you want the reason think it's there, I personally think it's because they realised how many people will despise Zen'O from this point. Hell, they already got an idea of it after the atrociously awful ending to the Trunks arc, so it was likely thrown in as a last minute "we didn't reaaaaally want to erase the universes permanently" to stop everyone from hating them.

Didn't do shit for me, though. They're both extremely irritating IMO.

Indeed. The Zen'Os came off as children who have too much power and are apathetic to the world around. Children can be cruel. 

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On 10/17/2019 at 1:16 AM, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

Well, it's as it says on the tin, it was a test to see if the universes themselves were still worthy of existing. The Zen'Os lost faith in the mortals, and wanted to see if the mortals were still worthy of existence. That's meant to be the explanation.

If you want the reason think it's there, I personally think it's because they realised how many people will despise Zen'O from this point. Hell, they already got an idea of it after the atrociously awful ending to the Trunks arc, so it was likely thrown in as a last minute "we didn't reaaaaally want to erase the universes permanently" to stop everyone from hating them.

Didn't do shit for me, though. They're both extremely irritating IMO.

I really liked the revelation that the Zenos were testing mortals myself. I think the problem some people have is that Toei exaggerated their childish side to the point that they feel too naive and/or distant to make such a decision. My guess is Toriyama probably intended them to have more balanced characterisation.

I also don't see the problem with one erasing Trunks' timeline when Zamasu had wrecked the Earth and killed everyone outside of the core cast? Not to mention Trunks is still able to return to a version of his world, even if it is a bit of a weird situation.

On 10/17/2019 at 12:12 AM, honey-dew said:

One thing I really didn't like about it was the wish part at the end. Like I know this is a shounen for children, but hypothetically, what if someone wished for something selfish and didn't bring all the other universes back. That "being virtuous" plot device was garbage (corny). What was even the point of putting it in there?

It's not exactly out of character for Dragon Ball to be corny, but then again, that's not what I would call the Zenos' blanket judgement of the whole multiverse. Sure, things turned out fine because of course they did, but the fact the fate of the entire multiverse rested on the virtue of a single individual is a pretty scary thought lol. For me, it just hammered home how insignificant everyone is against their power, which at least provides some tension in a story we know ends with the good guys surviving.

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57 minutes ago, Pawn said:

.

I also don't see the problem with one erasing Trunks' timeline when Zamasu had wrecked the Earth and killed everyone outside of the core cast? Not to mention Trunks is still able to return to a version of his world, even if it is a bit of a weird situation.

I’m not going to go into detail because lord knows other people with more knowledge of the series explained fifty times better why it’s a bad ending than I can, but in short, it renders the whole arc moot, it serves to take away the actual victory from Trunks, said ending fit far better because it was Trunks literally using his ideal of hope to destroy Zamasu’s selfish ambitions both body and soul, even if it was a bit of an ass pull.

It takes the most least interesting ending possible for Trunks here as well, and makes it such a stupid situation. What would’ve been interesting is Trunks having to learn to move forward in a world without Bulma, the time machine, Goku, and Vegeta to rely on if something really bad happens, him having to truly take into account what Vegeta said about getting stronger on his own accord and move forward as the sole protector of the future world, trying to rebuild and repopulate after Black’s destruction.

Alternatively, have the balls to follow through with the Zen’o ending by making Trunks and Mai accept the loss, and stay in the present. That way, not only do we have a far more interesting situation with them as main cast members, but it at least feels like Zen’o’s action carries weight.

In the current ending, nothing matters, it turns the whole arc to an absolute waste of time. Trunks gets a reset button to erase the arc’s actions, Beerus and Whis fuck with the rules of time travel for Trunks, even though they couldn’t understate how much of a danger time travel was before, and everyone who died is rendered absolutely weightless and meaningless by the show itself, considering the ending of the arc for some absolutely absurd and idiotic reason is everyone eating, laughing, and having a good time while just a matter of hours ago, they literally saw everything Trunks fought and cared about for 20 years erased.

Trunks acknowledges it for about a minute when he laments he couldn’t protect the future and keep his promise to Future Gohan, only to forget it moments later, and just accept this reset button where he just has to co-exist with himself. It’s lame, it ruined a far more fitting ending to the story’s themes and plot line, and makes Trunks look like a complete and total failure since he still failed to kill Zamasu in the end, and his moment of awesomeness is reduced to being the literal thing that indirectly leads to the universe being erased. 

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1 hour ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

I’m not going to go into detail because lord knows other people with more knowledge of the series explained fifty times better why it’s a bad ending than I can, but in short, it renders the whole arc moot, it serves to take away the actual victory from Trunks, said ending fit far better because it was Trunks literally using his ideal of hope to destroy Zamasu’s selfish ambitions both body and soul, even if it was a bit of an ass pull.

It takes the most least interesting ending possible for Trunks here as well, and makes it such a stupid situation. What would’ve been interesting is Trunks having to learn to move forward in a world without Bulma, the time machine, Goku, and Vegeta to rely on if something really bad happens, him having to truly take into account what Vegeta said about getting stronger on his own accord and move forward as the sole protector of the future world, trying to rebuild and repopulate after Black’s destruction.

Alternatively, have the balls to follow through with the Zen’o ending by making Trunks and Mai accept the loss, and stay in the present. That way, not only do we have a far more interesting situation with them as main cast members, but it at least feels like Zen’o’s action carries weight.

In the current ending, nothing matters, it turns the whole arc to an absolute waste of time. Trunks gets a reset button to erase the arc’s actions, Beerus and Whis fuck with the rules of time travel for Trunks, even though they couldn’t understate how much of a danger time travel was before, and everyone who died is rendered absolutely weightless and meaningless by the show itself, considering the ending of the arc for some absolutely absurd and idiotic reason is everyone eating, laughing, and having a good time while just a matter of hours ago, they literally saw everything Trunks fought and cared about for 20 years erased.

Trunks acknowledges it for about a minute when he laments he couldn’t protect the future and keep his promise to Future Gohan, only to forget it moments later, and just accept this reset button where he just has to co-exist with himself. It’s lame, it ruined a far more fitting ending to the story’s themes and plot line, and makes Trunks look like a complete and total failure since he still failed to kill Zamasu in the end, and his moment of awesomeness is reduced to being the literal thing that indirectly leads to the universe being erased. 

I prefer his tragic ending over an asspull giving them a full victory, but I agree that the ending as a whole was botched. I just found it odd to dislike Zeno for clearing up the mess when the story (particularly in regards to Trunks himself) had much bigger problems.

It's not necessarily a waste of time, though, since Black and Zamasu mentioned laying waste to mortals in all timelines if I recall correctly. How they would go about doing that, I don't know (maybe by somehow using the unstable link between worlds created by Trunks' time travel and the interaction with Black's ring?) but if they weren't stopped where they were, they may have found a way to reach the others. And of course - our version of Future Trunks and Mai wouldn't have survived.

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Here's another interesting question that came to mind thanks to a video from the concernly named Laughingstock Media: If Super adapts more elements from the movies, specials, or other extra media, who/what would you like to see?

5 hours ago, Pawn said:

I really liked the revelation that the Zenos were testing mortals myself. I think the problem some people have is that Toei exaggerated their childish side to the point that they feel too naive and/or distant to make such a decision. My guess is Toriyama probably intended them to have more balanced characterisation.

 

Yeah, he only provides general outlines, characterizations, and a couple of designs for Super outside of the movies.

5 hours ago, Pawn said:

I also don't see the problem with one erasing Trunks' timeline when Zamasu had wrecked the Earth and killed everyone outside of the core cast? 

Pretty much a justified display of what Zen'O is capable of.

4 hours ago, Ryannumber1Scarer said:

 

Alternatively, have the balls to follow through with the Zen’o ending by making Trunks and Mai accept the loss, and stay in the present. That way, not only do we have a far more interesting situation with them as main cast members, but it at least feels like Zen’o’s action carries weight.

 

That's what I thought had happened until a video mentioned offhand that Whis fixed everything.  I was like, "What? Didn't they become farmers or something?"

 

 

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6 hours ago, Pawn said:

I prefer his tragic ending over an asspull giving them a full victory, but I agree that the ending as a whole was botched. I just found it odd to dislike Zeno for clearing up the mess when the story (particularly in regards to Trunks himself) had much bigger problems.

It's not necessarily a waste of time, though, since Black and Zamasu mentioned laying waste to mortals in all timelines if I recall correctly. How they would go about doing that, I don't know (maybe by somehow using the unstable link between worlds created by Trunks' time travel and the interaction with Black's ring?) but if they weren't stopped where they were, they may have found a way to reach the others. And of course - our version of Future Trunks and Mai wouldn't have survived.

It would've been anything but a full victory. Even with Trunks finally killing Zamasu, it came at the cost with nearly all of humanity being wiped out, nearly the entire planet being totally decimated, and Future Bulma's life. Trunks goes through so much horrible shit in the entire arc, being blamed by Zamasu and Black for their decimation of the planet due to his time travelling, failing time and time again to protect the people he cares about. Trunks deserved that win, because he fought for it for the entire arc, taking easily the biggest blunt of damage from Black both psychologically and physically. 

Even with it being a bit of an ass pull, and it could've easily just been made a non-ass pull if Trunks was taught the spirit bomb technique by Supreme Kai in his timeline, but never truly mastered it until he absolutely needed to due to the kai's death in his timeline. It fits thematically well, it ties into the villain and their ideals. Zamasu's whole shtick throughout the entirety of the arc was acting high and mighty that mortal power would never be enough to harm the power of the gods, citing humanity as unworthy of existence, and most importantly - Zamasu only ever deems himself, and only himself worthy of existing in this "perfect world".

Zamasu fused with Goku Black, another version of himself to make this godly, immortal, all-powerful version of himself. His appearance becomes disfigured, twisted, and corrupted, symbolising how awful his ideals are, and how much of a truly horrid person he is. Trunks gains power through others selflessly, while Zamasu gains power by helping himself selfishly. That's what makes the conflict interesting due to the clash of ideals.

That's what the spirit bomb sword symbolises, it symbolises the moment where Trunks steps out from Goku and Vegeta, who prefer to always handle things alone, and forgo help, and Trunks actively seeks help and others' power to destroy Zamasu once and for all. It isn't just a win for Trunks, it's a win for humanity itself taking a final stand against this insanely high power hell-bent on their destruction. 

Because of that, I'd argue the ass-pull nature of it doesn't matter. Because thematically and symbolically, this ending works on a far better level by tying up the themes of the story, making the final clash based around Trunks and Zamasu's clashing ideologies, and tying back into the original Trunks arc by showcasing the message that even through the darkest moments, hope can win, and hope can shine through. 

What happens next completely forgoes every single thing that's interesting about the story, and flushes it down the toilet. Trunks fails yet again and is directly responsible for causing Zamasu to fuse with the universe itself, giving him the power to slaughter the remaining survivors in seconds, and destroy his world once and for all. There's no clash of ideologies anymore because Zamasu just now throws away his original plans. He originally planned to keep the future beautiful and in peak condition once the survivors were killed, and now he just outright obliterates the city they're standing in within seconds.

The situation in of itself is an even bigger ass-pull, and I'd argue at least the manga handled it a little better by trying to make it some kind of Cell deal where Merged Zamasu can regenerate himself into multiple clones when Zamasu/Rose are split apart by Trunks. But Zamasu merging with the universe itself is fucking stupid, and makes no sense whatsoever. The explanation presented was already enough. Zamasu wished to be immortal - but with Goku Black now being apart of his spirit and body, the immortal part gets wiped out because the potara cause them to be a whole different being altogether, and the spreading corruption through Zamasu is possibly screwing with the wish, similar to how in GT, Goku can break Shenron's magic forcing him to be a kid by using SSJ4 to overcome it's power.

Zen'O is apart of a bigger problem is the point I'm making. He's what cements how terrible the ending is. He isn't responsible for all of the issues, but he adds an extra layer of meaningless to the whole mess. He steals the win from Trunks, he just nukes a full universe instead of finding another way to deal with Zamasu, and hell, he looked ready to also erase Goku, and co since they had to high-tail it to the time machine before Zen'O did the erasure. He isn't the major problem, but he confirms how bad it is by throwing away all hope that Trunks can win, and fix things.

He basically just makes everything, literally everything Trunks has fought for in the past how many years since his special, the Android saga, and the Black saga mean nothing, because Trunks failed and the world is now destroyed, along with everything he cares about. And that could've been interesting, especially if Trunks stuck around as a main cast member, but Toriyama didn't even have the balls to let that ending sit, and farted out a way for Trunks to still somehow have a future world to come back to when it would've just worked far better to throw out the whole nonsense about Zamasu fusing with the universe.

It comes off as an even worse ass-pull, and a total Deus EX Machina. At least the fight with Trunks and Zamasu had thematic weight to it, and brought together all of the arc's themes to a final confrontation. Here, Goku just literally hits a plot device button to make Zen'O appear and magic away the problem because they made Zamasu so unbelievably overpowered to the total point of ridicule that he just had to be erased via plot contrivance. It's lazy writing, and it looks especially bad in light of the fact we had two better concluding fights in both prior two episodes via Vegito Blue VS Zamasu, and Trunks VS Zamasu. 

It'd be like if at the end of the Cell Saga, Cell just regenerated after the Father-Son Kamehameha, and was so powerful that he could obliterate Gohan in seconds, only for Beerus to randomly appear and hakai him out of existence. It throws away everything the arc builds to just for the sake of pathetically bad shock value.

So TL';DR - Zen'O isn't the key problem, but he kind of symbolises all of the problems with the ending. 

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On 10/8/2019 at 7:11 PM, DabigRG said:

So what did ya'll think of the Tournament of Power?

Highlights, low points? Favorite characters, least favorite characters? Great ideas, missed opportunities?

That sorta spiel and maybe more.

I'll talk about the Tournament over all sometime. Probably in dispersed intervals of varying focus. Apropos, no?

I think I covered Kale, Monna, and Ribrianne briefly, so I'll skimp on revisiting them for now. I can probably talk about Top and to another extent Jiren another time since they are the main rivals for the arc.

Other characters I can think of (looking at a list here) Nigrissi(wait, did I mention him before?), General Casserale, Jirasen, Sorel, Oregano & Hyssop, Napapa, Shantza, Catopresa, Rabanra, Zirloin, and Zarbuto. Each of these characters  I thought were interesting, or at least had a potentially neat motif about them.

Though I realize the premise of having 80 friggin fighters go at it at once was just begging for this to happen and/or guaranteed a load of fodder, I feel at least half that could've had a bit more of a unique impact on the intentionally scattered plot or rather character moments.

1 hour ago, batson said:

Gohan's lack of a role in the ToP is my biggest DB related disapointment so far.

Yeah, he didn't really get to do much coordinating.

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1 hour ago, Shaddy Zaphod said:

Johnny Yong Bosch replaced Vic as Sabo in One Piece, and now in FighterZ as Broly. His screams sound pretty good. Can we go 4 for 4, and get him for Rohan and Ed Elric? Only time will tell.

I don't see that happening, those shows have been over for years. There's no point in redubbing them. All we can do is move forward. 

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