Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Zaysho]

Well they do call Goku "The Japanese Superman" . but no you don't have to wait a year, in fact tomorrow April 7th its going to be with the next Shonen Jump issue.

True, but were in a case of the Toei version being hardgrinded into us since the early 90s that we take that as the main series/canon explanation of what happened pre-dragonball and every piece of media and adapted from that, were in too deep to start making sudden changes now.

This is a nice alternate take of what happened pre-dragonball and I gladly accept it, but that means DB itself would need alittle redoing as well but hell its not like this series doesn't need it.

 

Ah, I don't get WSJ, but I can probably spring a buck or two for an issue as long as I'm not wrangled into a subscription or something. I might look into it later.

 

And, yeah, I wouldn't discount the Toei version at all, one because it was accepted canon (even by Toriyama) for over twenty years and two because it's just a good story, so I'm good with AU explanation. True, Dragon Ball could use some of its own fixing/redoing just so everything was more intentional instead of Toriyama making things up week to week like he did, but I can't hate the old approach either; it's what made Dragon Ball so much fun to begin with.

[Kuzu]

Wait, this would have to take place sometime before the Bardock special to make sense because Goku was born around that time.

[goku262002]

Wait, this would have to take place sometime before the Bardock special to make sense because Goku was born around that time.

It doesn't make sense, thats where the issue lies. see in this universe, Goku is already 2-3 years old but in the main series universe hes an infant when he leaves Vegeta.

[Kuzu]

....Toriyama really doesn't care much for consistency huh.

[VO.SUPER]

I don't even think you can call Bardock back then a jerk with a heart of gold, personally. Maybe if you're watching FUNimation's wildly different dub of the Bardock special, or even just the Super Saiyan Bardock special (it seems like a "characterization marches on" sorta thing), but Bardock isn't a "nice" character by any stretch.

 

Though in fairness, Toriyama didn't create Bardock, so it's not too surprising he'd give him more of his own personal flair (for the sake of humor) instead of strictly adhering to what Toei created.

 

That said, I don't think it's that Toriyama "doesn't care," but just that he prefers doing things that more closely fit his sensibilities as an artist and a storyteller, which is why it's not too surprising he takes a dark character like Bardock and softens him up for the sake of having some fun. We can talk about how it flies in the face of all that came before, and I'd probably agree with that, but Toriyama is basically going to do whatever he wants to do.

 

I do want to read this whole story now though, I'm somewhat amused at the thought of Bardock having a regular domestic life. I'm also hoping to see a young Raditz if Toriyama hasn't forgotten about him. What Quash says makes sense that Gine's gentleness probably did have some influence on the Son family, particularly Gohan, so that's an interesting thought.

 

He tries to save his race. That's gold enough for me.

 

He doesn't care for consistency and knows his writing abilities. If he did care, he would do it in a way that fit the vision of the TV special, but even he said he couldn't do that kind of storytelling and doesn't attempt it. He just does the story as he does and move on with it. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact Toriyama gets badgered day in and day out for more Dragonball, he wouldn't keep coming back to this series. He really just wants to do whatever he wants, but is hounded by the masses to pursue more Dragonball, even if his vision isn't as fitting to the "Japanese Superman" idea that his fans have of Goku and his adventures. 

[MegasonicZX]

Yeah, honestly I was kind of surprised to find out that this series was even still going when I heard about it last year, I can understand how toriyama just wouldn't even care by this point since this whole thing probably should've been done already (though all the new characters are nice).

[-Ace-]

Here's the new opening for Kai's Buu Saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCvixJTGwTo

[Zaysho]

He tries to save his race. That's gold enough for me.

 

He doesn't care for consistency and knows his writing abilities. If he did care, he would do it in a way that fit the vision of the TV special, but even he said he couldn't do that kind of storytelling and doesn't attempt it. He just does the story as he does and move on with it. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact Toriyama gets badgered day in and day out for more Dragonball, he wouldn't keep coming back to this series. He really just wants to do whatever he wants, but is hounded by the masses to pursue more Dragonball, even if his vision isn't as fitting to the "Japanese Superman" idea that his fans have of Goku and his adventures.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't a noble effort, but just because he wanted to eliminate someone who was decidedly more evil (and Freeza was definitely the bigger evil), doesn't automatically make him good guy. The Saiyans were still a bunch of space pirates, and even if they were no longer part of Freeza's World Trade Organization, they'd still use all the technology they acquired from the Tsufurijin and Freeza's forces to go conquer the rest of the universe. To each his own, really, and even though Bardock is one of my favorite characters, I don't really look at him as a good guy. That said, if Vegeta is any indication, Saiyans are capable of changes of heart and even mellowing out under the right circumstances, so who's to say he couldn't have become good over time?

 

Toriyama's return to Dragon Ball is relatively new, honestly. He walked away and pursued so many other things (design, shorter comic series) in the 13 year span of the manga ending and interest in the property being renewed in Japan. I don't think you give him enough credit in that regard. He obviously still had some involvement in small things here and there, but I think when he revisited Dragon Ball it was entirely on his own terms, not due to any supposed badgering (otherwise, we'd have way more DB stuff from him than we do right now). All Toriyama's done since Dragon Ball ended is whatever he felt like doing. Should he have tried to stay in line with Bardock's original characterization or with the tone of the original special? Sure. So should Toei and Shueisha, since "Episode of Bardock" was still different from the original (he's more obviously heroic compared to how he was previously portrayed). And the game developers should try to stick closer to the characters too, but apparently I'm the only one who hates the idea of SSJ3 Broly.

 

 

Yeah, honestly I was kind of surprised to find out that this series was even still going when I heard about it last year, I can understand how toriyama just wouldn't even care by this point since this whole thing probably should've been done already (though all the new characters are nice).

 

It's not still going... All the new material is supplemental if anything.

[VO.SUPER]

That was a really weak op. The animation was cheap looking, and the song didn't have the same oomph Dragon Soul did.

 

 

Toriyama's return to Dragon Ball is relatively new, honestly. He walked away and pursued so many other things (design, shorter comic series) in the 13 year span of the manga ending and interest in the property being renewed in Japan. I don't think you give him enough credit in that regard. He obviously still had some involvement in small things here and there, but I think when he revisited Dragon Ball it was entirely on his own terms, not due to any supposed badgering (otherwise, we'd have way more DB stuff from him than we do right now). All Toriyama's done since Dragon Ball ended is whatever he felt like doing. Should he have tried to stay in line with Bardock's original characterization or with the tone of the original special? Sure. So should Toei and Shueisha, since "Episode of Bardock" was still different from the original (he's more obviously heroic compared to how he was previously portrayed). And the game developers should try to stick closer to the characters too, but apparently I'm the only one who hates the idea of SSJ3 Broly.

 

No we wouldn't. Toriyama doesn't do anything for the sake of ambition or creative energy. He just does it for the sake of doing it. He was badgered a lot and decided, "why not try some more?" Hell, look at how he and the team at Toei handled "Battle of the Gods". That movie was one of the most different of the whole franchise in it's approach to storytelling, funny that it'd be the one that involve him the most. If Toriyama did care, he'd have checked with the fans to see what they saw in his DBZ, yet he gives us a radically different movie from the rest.

[goku262002]

Here's the new opening for Kai's Buu Saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCvixJTGwTo

 

New ending too:

http://youtu.be/cxiJgiED7Bw

Yes not the same oomph but at least they are original, Dragon Soul as catchy as it was is just a remixing of DBGT's intro. these new OP and ED sound nothing like any other OP/ED before it.

[Zaysho]

No we wouldn't. Toriyama doesn't do anything for the sake of ambition or creative energy. He just does it for the sake of doing it. He was badgered a lot and decided, "why not try some more?" Hell, look at how he and the team at Toei handled "Battle of the Gods". That movie was one of the most different of the whole franchise in it's approach to storytelling, funny that it'd be the one that involve him the most. If Toriyama did care, he'd have checked with the fans to see what they saw in his DBZ, yet he gives us a radically different movie from the rest.

If Toriyama was badgered as you claim, he'd have stopped making/approving DB anything just to piss people off (which honestly sounds like him) or an editor would've chained him to a desk and make him draw more Goku. Neither of these things happened. If anything, the fact that Shueisha have Naho Oishi and whoever is handling Dragon Ball Heroes (which more closely fit what people usually associate with the series) shows that they were perfectly fine with Toriyama not coming back to the property and they could've continued making stories without him--they'd probably just have to get him to approve since Bird Studios still holds the rights to Dragon Ball. He could've been the Japanese version of Jim Davis, which he isn't.

 

And I'm not seeing how anything he's done since the original manga ended as lacking ambition or creative energy, since he just as easily could've walked away from the drawing table with all the money DB made him. I think the problem is that you're confusing Toei's separate vision of Dragon Ball, which leans a little darker than the manga at times (though even some of the anime's heavier filler hits some of Toriyama's beats) with what he himself created. The manga went from being a straight up gag story (coming off the heels of Dr. Slump) to a lighthearted adventure series. The most serious it ever got was around Freeza and Cell, but even then it was never this dark, super serious series that Toei presented it as (particularly with the movies--though I'd say "Fusion Reborn" was where Toei lightened things up).

 

I haven't seen "Battle of Gods" but I doubt it's that different if you consider it's more of a continuation of the 2008 Jump Special, itself a continuation of the manga (well, they're more "interquels" between the end of the fight with Buu  and the end of the comic proper), so it fitting more of Toriyama's vision as opposed to what Toei has done in the past isn't too crazy. I'm not saying I agree with everything, the Bardock thing really doesn't fit what I've known about the character or the story in general, but the manga and anime were always sort of separate but similar universes, so I can't be too put off Toriyama doing things his way if that's what he wanted to do.

[Ratcicle King]

Here's the new opening for Kai's Buu Saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCvixJTGwTo

Ok, am I the only one who thinks this music is similar to Yeah Yeah Break Care? The first ending of Kai?

[VO.SUPER]

If Toriyama was badgered as you claim, he'd have stopped making/approving DB anything just to piss people off (which honestly sounds like him) or an editor would've chained him to a desk and make him draw more Goku. Neither of these things happened. If anything, the fact that Shueisha have Naho Oishi and whoever is handling Dragon Ball Heroes (which more closely fit what people usually associate with the series) shows that they were perfectly fine with Toriyama not coming back to the property and they could've continued making stories without him--they'd probably just have to get him to approve since Bird Studios still holds the rights to Dragon Ball. He could've been the Japanese version of Jim Davis, which he isn't.

 

And I'm not seeing how anything he's done since the original manga ended as lacking ambition or creative energy, since he just as easily could've walked away from the drawing table with all the money DB made him. I think the problem is that you're confusing Toei's separate vision of Dragon Ball, which leans a little darker than the manga at times (though even some of the anime's heavier filler hits some of Toriyama's beats) with what he himself created. The manga went from being a straight up gag story (coming off the heels of Dr. Slump) to a lighthearted adventure series. The most serious it ever got was around Freeza and Cell, but even then it was never this dark, super serious series that Toei presented it as (particularly with the movies--though I'd say "Fusion Reborn" was where Toei lightened things up).

 

I haven't seen "Battle of Gods" but I doubt it's that different if you consider it's more of a continuation of the 2008 Jump Special, itself a continuation of the manga (well, they're more "interquels" between the end of the fight with Buu  and the end of the comic proper), so it fitting more of Toriyama's vision as opposed to what Toei has done in the past isn't too crazy. I'm not saying I agree with everything, the Bardock thing really doesn't fit what I've known about the character or the story in general, but the manga and anime were always sort of separate but similar universes, so I can't be too put off Toriyama doing things his way if that's what he wanted to do.

 

I'm not put off. I'm just stating as I see it. Toriyama is not an ambitious guy, and doesn't care for much. He just does. 

 

He was badgered to do more Dragonball and he kept saying no for the longest time since it ended. He only recently came back to do it in the way he does things best, short and lighthearted stuff that doesn't require much brainpower to use. 

 

And note, when I say he doesn't do anything for the sake of creative energy, I mean that he isn't trying to provide anything more than a simple series of plots for the fun and adventure. He just naturally has this creative leaning with his humor and art, but isn't doing it for the sake of his craft. He just likes to make people smile with simple stuff that he offers. 

 

And I think you're confusing me with not liking Toriyama's direction. I like how he handles things, even if he doesn't care for consistency or deep meaning plots. Whenever I say he doesn't care, I have no malice behind it, just pointing it out because it's funny to see how his creative vision goes against the idea of being "Japanese Superman" (maybe Silver Age). And that criticism of Battle of the Gods comes mostly from the Japanese fanbase.

[goku262002]

“Dragon Ball Minus” English Release & Manga Guide Documentation (KaiZEX)

If you want to check out the english version of DB-, The new Shonen Jump issue is out, costs 99 cents.

EDIT: Also:

The Dragon Ball Z Game We Deserve (Kotaku)

Neat, I like it. hopefully it pulls through.

[goku262002]

I want to thank Morganstudios for helping me out with the music syncing/timing. The editing was done by me. This is the Faulconer BGM that was originally intended to play during this scene, but the peeps at FUNimation at the time wanted Future Trunks to give off a more "hardcore" vibe, and this track gave off to much of a heroic/savior vibe, so it was rejected.

ps- I added the music that played when king cold gasped in shock for dramatic purposes. I thought it was a nice touch, lol.

For comparison:

Wonder how many other scenes had changes like this?...

[Vec]

Ba-bump

 

In another Q&A, Toriyama reveals more info about other characters like 17 and 18, Mr. Satan, the Kaioshins and more

 

Here's a link about the Q&A: http://www.saiyanisland.com/2014/05/akira-toriyama-reveals/

 

So...thoughs?

[Spin Attaxx]

>17 is Lapis

>18 is Lazuli

Tnx Toriyama, I'm never gonna see Minecraft or the Androids in the same way ever again.

 

EDIT: Also, Goku might not go SSJ2 or SSJ3 again? Well, I suppose if it would make the original form actually mean something instead of a milestone indicating "you have X more munky butts to digest before getting Y amount of even more spiky hair and even more power", I'm for it.

[MamboCat]

Interesting... but I was under the impression he just made up stuff as he went along!

[Komodin]

Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibidi made him, the truth is that one called “Buu” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber. Since the current Buu is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Buu was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation.

 

So, Majin Buu is essentially the Dark Gaia (of sorts) of the Dragon Ball universe? That's kinda interesting...

[VO.SUPER]

Interesting... but I was under the impression he just made up stuff as he went along!

He does; he probably just made this up recently. XD

[188Eternal]

I've never been a fan of the Dragon Ball Z series and/or any other sequels where Goku was all grown up, but I did enjoy the original Dragon Ball where Goku was a kid and where he met a peculiar quirky character who was an anthropomorphic swine shapeshifter. Something about that shapeshifter always made my day. He had a great sense of humour.

And my most memorable moment from that whole show was when the dragon was finally summoned and granted the shapeshifter's wish for a pair of clean underwear, which was worn proudly on his head like a hat.

That was just hilarious entertainment for my back then 11-year-old and 12-year-old self.

[Mania Pipe]

I've been a fan of both Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z for a long, although I tend to enjoy Dragon Ball a lot more because of all of the wacky adventures and hijinks that Goku and his friends get into, but also using their martial art skills to fight the bad guys. I also loved how they got to discover these mystical lands that had strange life living around. Dragon Ball Z was definitely more action-oriented than the original. While I do enjoy Dragon Ball Z to an extent, it had some charming moments akin to Dragon Ball, but then begins to lose it's magic charm. I really hate Dragon GT because it was a giant festering pile of diarrhea that shat on every single character from Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, EXCEPT for Goku.

[TheGerkuman]

I've read the DB manga, that was good stuff indeed. But I'll always like DBZ more, even if it's partially from nostalgia. But that's part of why I like DBZ Abridged, as some people have already pointed out it's like they took DBZ and made it more like the original Dragon Ball.

[VO.SUPER]

I like Dragon Ball more. DBZ is just more of a string of fights with little strategy involved; or at least not as much as the original series. They're awesome fights when you just want to sit down and relax, but I always have had more of a heart for the adventure feel of the original Dragonball. 

 

And this is something I find more apparent as I get older. I never cared for the original Dragonball when I was just a kid.

[-Robin-]

Lapis Lazuli is prized for its intense blue hue. And with the Androids being part of the RED Ribbon Army....Toriyama's got a thing for puns.

Toriyama also has a backstory for Android No. 16 and why he is what he is:

The model for No. 16 was Dr. Gero’s son, who died young long ago. He was a high-ranking soldier in the Red Ribbon Army, but he was felled by an enemy bullet. Having a special place in his heart for his own child, Gero gave No. 16 great power and a fearsome explosive mechanism, but not wanting him to be destroyed in battle if possible, he gave him a gentle personality, which caused No. 16 to become a failure.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/db-full-color-artificial-humans-cell-arc-03/

So now it's all one big dramatic irony that Dr. Gero's ultimate creation Cell was defeated by his great nemesis's son, who could only do so after being spurred on by the words of the gentle android that Gero's own son's appearance and personality served as the basis for the design. Gonna go tear up in the corner, brb