Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Chaos Warp]

I feel like Toriyama is doing his damnest to forget the Buu saga exists. Goten, Trunks, and Buu(the three most prominent additions to that saga) get the most humiliating defeats in Battle of Gods and now they're not even appearing in Revival of F.

 

 

Damn yo lol.

Well to be fair it's a really bad saga so maybe he realized his mistake....

[Zaysho]

Well to be fair it's a really bad saga so maybe he realized his mistake....

 

I'd say it was hardly a mistake, but I'm in the minority that actually enjoys that era of the series. You want legitmately bad? Go watch GT (saying that I liked some of the ideas in GT, the ones that aren't recycled from DBZ movies, it still had a lot of bad writing).

 

I am disappointed that Goten, Trunks, and Buu are (likely) being sidelined though. If anything, they'd truly be assets against Freeza's army (much as I loved Battle of Gods, they, as well as 18, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo, got slapped around a little too easily). This could tie in more to this movie seeming to focus on the older generation of fighters, as well as those that directly dealt with Freeza or were affected by him, I dunno. And come to think of it, Toriyama did say he would like Vegeta to have a larger role in a future film, didn't he (this was in the lead-up to Battle of Gods, but I have no idea if Revival of F will actually do that)?

 

I was also a little bummed out that Toriyama's version of Hell is completely divorced from the Toei version--I would think something so bizarre as Hell being both a gym and prison for the worst of the worst (except Dabra...) would appeal to his sensibilities, but oh well. I knew whatever he did with Hell, if anything at all, was going to be its own thing since the manga always outright stated things about it that contradict what Toei made up, but I'm gonna miss those wacky oni.

 

Only thing I'm curious about now is if the prequel chapters will actually be adapted into the film (I figure the first one will be, at least).

[Chaos Warp]

I'd say it was hardly a mistake, but I'm in the minority that actually enjoys that era of the series. You want legitmately bad? Go watch GT (saying that I liked some of the ideas in GT, the ones that aren't recycled from DBZ movies, it still had a lot of bad writing).

 

It's definitely not as bad as GT, but it just felt like it got way too ridiculous. SSJ1 is fine, I'd prefer if it was just Goku's thing considering the whole story and buildup behind it, and SSJ2 was fine for Gohan because they hinted at his hidden power the whole time. But SSJ3 was too far for me, it removed all meaning and special-ness behind the Super Sayian even more then it already had been done, and Gohan taking up the torch from his dad was an awesome ending and I think it should have ended there. 

 

Maybe my opinion of it will go up when I watch the Kai version of it. 

[Dejimon11]

Agreed the moment they introduced SSJ3 it pretty much lost any meaning(samething with power levels). As much as I loved battle of gods the thing that annoyed me the most was when piccolo said "he's dropped from his god form and transformed into a mere super saiyin"

[goku262002]

Well because SSG is on a different level, so much so that SS1-3 look weak compared to it.

you guys don't have to worry anymore because we'll probably never see SS3 or goku going Super Saiyan ever again.

[Kuzu]

Don't worry about Super Saiyan at all really considering Toriyama said Goku and Vegeta are both going to attain power that surpass it in the latest movie.

[Linkabel]

I think Majin Buu, Goten and Trunks are getting sideline just because having Frieza comeback and be a threat is already a big asspull. If you can get past the whole "it's only going to take me 4 months to catch up to the fighters that are a million times more powerful than me" than maybe having those 3 would make it harder to take Frieza seriously.

I think it would be overkilled to have Goku and Vegeta which are implied to be already stronger than in BotG,plus Majin Buu which is still one of the strongest beings in the universe, plus Goten and Trunks which can be fused and become a powerful threat themselves?

I prefer them to stay in the sidelines and not get humiliated like how probably Gohan (which at this point we might as well call him Yamcha Jr.) is going to end up like.

[Kuzu]

So many inconsistencies are coming in this movie, which I was able to overlook in Battle of Gods due not being as serious but I really hope the writers don't expect us not to notice most of the wtf moments now.

[Komodin]

Don't worry about Super Saiyan at all really considering Toriyama said Goku and Vegeta are both going to attain power that surpass it in the latest movie.

 

Oh, joy, I can't wait until Hyper Saiyan Goku and Vegeta becomes a thing...

[The Tenth Doctor]

No Trunks is a bad move. See, Frieza swore revenge against Goku and Future Trunks for defeating him. Obviously he can't catch Future Trunks because he time travelled away so I thought he'd get to attack Kid Trunks in response. Ah well, guess Goku did all the work didn't he? The series keeps saying Goku did it, even though Future Trunks did it so why give credit now?

[Kuzu]

Future Trunks may have killed him, but when you get down to it, his hatred for Goku is far more personal. Goku humiliated him completely and was the first Super Saiyan he encountered. It makes sense his grudge would primarily be against him.

 

 

Oh, joy, I can't wait until Hyper Saiyan Goku and Vegeta becomes a thing...

 

Actually its kinda more like Ultimate Gohan in that they just focus the power in their base forms apparently.

[goku262002]

Oh, joy, I can't wait until Hyper Saiyan Goku and Vegeta becomes a thing...

I get the reference but you didn't see BoGs did you?

There trying to establish that base forms of saiyans are the strongest forms they have and The Super Saiyan state has been a "Dirty" way of gaining strength. Old Kai actually hinted at this in the Buu saga.

[Kuzu]

Not that it stopped them from giving Gohan his Super Saiyan form back in this movie though.

[Linkabel]

I get the reference but you didn't see BoGs did you?

You mean the movie that added another Super Saiyan transformation?

Not that it stopped them from giving Gohan his Super Saiyan form back in this movie though.

I think it boils down to some of the inconsistencies from Toriyama in the first place. When Gohan first achieves his new state, Old Kai never says he can't go Super Saiyan. I think people confuse what he told Gohan "do that Super Saiyan thingy you do" and him not turning into it automatically made people go "Oh he can't do it anymore."

But this sort of contradicts what Old Kai did which was unlocking his hidden power, so "Ultimate Gohan" is not a transformation or a form but just his base form with all his power unlocked.

I honestly don't remember what's it's stated afterwards but I think it's implied that going Super Saiyan would be overkill for him now (which is pretty stupid considering the asswhooping Buu would give him later) and even one of the encyclopedias mentions he CAN go Super Saiyan (but then backtracking and treating this as a form/transformation that surpasses the Super Saiyan form.)

So it seems that it can honestly can go both ways but I just think he didn't think it through and it was one of many "lol what am I doing?" plot points of the Buu saga.

It does seem that the new movies are trying to say that base forms are the way to go. But I think the Super Saiyan God transformation and "god" ki kind of puts a big x on that theory for now....or till the new movie comes up with Super Saiyan Angel Vegeta or something like that.

[Ratcicle King]

You mean the movie that added another Super Saiyan transformation?

I think it boils down to some of the inconsistencies from Toriyama in the first place. When Gohan first achieves his new state, Old Kai never says he can't go Super Saiyan. I think people confuse what he told Gohan "do that Super Saiyan thingy you do" and him not turning into it automatically made people go "Oh he can't do it anymore."

But this sort of contradicts what Old Kai did which was unlocking his hidden power, so "Ultimate Gohan" is not a transformation or a form but just his base form with all his power unlocked.

I honestly don't remember what's it's stated afterwards but I think it's implied that going Super Saiyan would be overkill for him now (which is pretty stupid considering the asswhooping Buu would give him later) and even one of the encyclopedias mentions he CAN go Super Saiyan (but then backtracking and treating this as a form/transformation that surpasses the Super Saiyan form.)

So it seems that it can honestly can go both ways but I just think he didn't think it through and it was one of many "lol what am I doing?" plot points of the Buu saga.

It does seem that the new movies are trying to say that base forms are the way to go. But I think the Super Saiyan God transformation and "god" ki kind of puts a big x on that theory for now....or till the new movie comes up with Super Saiyan Angel Vegeta or something like that.

Considering Gohan needed to power up to go Mystic/Ultimate, I think Ultimate Gohan is a transformation that allows him to pull ALL of that potential locked deep inside of him, while Super Saiyan only brings out a small percentage of it, meaning if he's Ultimate Gohan, he can't go Super Saiyan, since there would be no potential left for him to bring out, and there's no reason for him to go Super since it only brings out a bit of his power while Ultimate gives him all his power.

That would also explain why Goku takes a while to go SSJ3, since by that logic, that form is the Super Saiyan form that brings out the most of their untapped power, and even then, Goku himself says he half-assed the transformation so it barely works as it should.

I saw someone saying that maybe the SSJGod isn't a transformation, but an upgrade, that doing the ''ritual'' to become a SSJGod not only multiplies your potential but amplifies the limits of your body, with the transformation itself being just a ''preview'' of what Goku could do now, meaning that not only it gave him a power boost to face Beerus, but it also upgraded his body to the point he can become as strong as Beerus on his own.

[Kuzu]

"Ultimate" is pretty much focusing all of Gohan's latent power into his base form, which makes him stronger than his Super Saiyan form due to not only providing a greater power output, but it doesn't drain energy like the latter powered up form could. Its not that Gohan couldn't go Super Saiyan, there was just no need to after getting his potential unlocked. Going Super Saiyan would have just burned out his energy. 

[Linkabel]

"Ultimate" is pretty much focusing all of Gohan's latent power into his base form, which makes him stronger than his Super Saiyan form due to not only providing a greater power output, but it doesn't drain energy like the latter powered up form could. Its not that Gohan couldn't go Super Saiyan, there was just no need to after getting his potential unlocked. Going Super Saiyan would have just burned out his energy.

I think this is a good explanation for it, except for the fact where this one of the big plot points in the end of the Cell saga where Goku and Gohan master the Super Saiyan form so it wouldn't drain their energy and burn them out. Remember that even Vegeta mentions how he can't feel the energy of a Super Saiyan on them and the transformation was more akin to their base form. So shouldn't the SS form be even more of a benefit for Gohan now since it should still give him a boost to his already powerful base form.

Buuuut like I said, I still think Ultimate Gohan was not thought out well and it was just a way to raise the stakes, make Gohan look stronger while at the same time having Buu defeat him to make him a bigger threat.

[G-Force]

I get the feeling that I'm not going to be saying anything that Omega didn't already intend, but whatever.

 

The way I understood it, Ultimate/Mystic Gohan is literally just normal Gohan with access to all of his latent powers, which includes the raw power and energy of his Super Saiyan forms.  He can tap into all the potential power of those forms without actually transforming, which means the forms themselves are useless either because they have nothing left to provide, or because transforming and maintaining the form wastes energy.

 

As far as the whole, "they mastered the Super Saiyan form so they don't waste energy on it anymore," thing goes, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point.  They mastered the form to the point where it was as effortless and efficient as possible, so that they could draw out the maximum possible amount of power from the form while simultaneously using the lowest possible amount of energy to do it.  It still costs energy to transform though, which is why Goku and Gohan spent the whole time between leaving the time chamber and the actual Cell Games transformed.

 

This all seems kind of like a moot point, though.  One thing we can say about Gohan is that he's not as fight focused as Goku or Vegeta.  Because of that, he doesn't really bother with training unless he knows there's a specific reason to do so.  If he's not training then not only is he not getting stronger but he's allowing his existing strength to decay.  it's not unreasonable to assume that Gohan's abilities have decayed to the point where he actually does need to transform again.

[Autosaver]

Well I mean this is DBZ. I wouldn't be surprised if Mystic Gohan will end up getting more powerful throughout the series through SSJ transformations. "He unlocked all his potential" my ass.

[Candescence]

I seriously wish Gohan didn't get relegated to a secondary character during the Buu saga. Ruining Gohan's entire character arc was pretty much one of Toriyama's worst decisions, even if we did get Vegeta's character development out of it. Gohan should've been the one to fight Beerus, dammit, and Pan and Uub should've been the main characters of GT.

 

Still, at least Toriyama is more willing to break the mold these days, what with the ending of Battle of Gods and the teasing of Vegeta possibly being the one to take down Freeza rather than Goku.

[Ratcicle King]

Also I just realised something:

Goku will fight using his natural form, which now holds an ungodly ammount of power, while Freeza will fight using a golden transformation he just found, leaving on equal footing if not even stronger than Goku's natural form.

 

The fight is just like the original Goku VS Freeza fight, only they inverted places now.

[Linkabel]

About the Gohan situation...chapter two of the Revival manga came out and

This is what Gohan said when Tien asked him if he kept training. Gohan: “Sadly no…My apologies…But I can still become a Super Saiyan…Probably…”

Literally wtf Toriyama.

[goku262002]

No it makes sense, gohan is stupid in a way when it comes to his saiyan ablities. he thinks since he transformed into it that its there 100% all the time forever and Old Kai didn't help by telling him that all of his potentional was unlocked for good.

Saiyans need to train to keep their strength up, they don't then they lose the ablities they aquired. Gohan focused on being a father and a scolar instead so hes lost most of the ablities hes worked for. super saiyan isn't lost to him because all it requires is a saiyan with abnormal high power levels and a memory trigger known as the pain of loss to transform into the state, simple considering gohan just has to draw on his past events.

Okay so its a bit of an asspull but lore wise it does make sense, Toriyama isn't soo deranged in the brain but he does make dumb moves like not keeping gohan at his Mystic base power level, I mean hes got a family now you'd think that'd be enough reason to train esp. since the beerus incident.

[Kuzu]

I'm annoyed as fuck about it, but since Gohan is getting demoted, they have to nerf his power too...sadly.

[Linkabel]

No it makes sense, gohan is stupid in a way when it comes to his saiyan ablities. he thinks since he transformed into it that its there 100% all the time forever and Old Kai didn't help by telling him that all of his potentional was unlocked for good.

Saiyans need to train to keep their strength up, they don't then they lose the ablities they aquired. Gohan focused on being a father and a scolar instead so hes lost most of the ablities hes worked for. super saiyan isn't lost to him because all it requires is a saiyan with abnormal high power levels and a memory trigger known as the pain of loss to transform into the state, simple considering gohan just has to draw on his past events.

Okay so its a bit of an asspull but lore wise it does make sense, Toriyama isn't soo deranged in the brain but he does make dumb moves like not keeping gohan at his Mystic base power level, I mean hes got a family now you'd think that'd be enough reason to train esp. since the beerus incident.

Ummm but it doesn't make sense lore wise at all. For example, between the end of Dragon Ball and the beginning of Z it is implied that Goku didn't keep up with his training but he didn't lose his abilities and that was almost 5 years.

And before you say that Goku went through more shit than Gohan, let's remember he started his journey when he was around 10 while Gohan started around 4/5 and fought more powerful enemies and was already Super Saiyan by the time he was 10. So if we're going by that logic then Goku should've been considerably more weaker than Piccolo and Raditz when they fought.

And let's not forget that Gohan didn't train for 7 years between Cell and Buu and he was just a bit weaker, but he didn't lose his abilities at all. But in the 1 or 2 years that has passed since Beerus attacked he suddenly doubts if he could go Super Saiyan or has any strength left?

It's just an asspull for the sake of being an asspull.