Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Ratcicle King]

Honestly what baffles me the most so far is that EVERYONE in the cast who knows about the punishment is going ''Ok we need to win this and it'll all be ok'', like, guys, did you forget that even winning that means ALL OTHER UNIVERSES WILL DIE? I know they're looking out for the own skin, but that's a BIG FUCKING DEAL, it makes them all sound like selfish assholes, especially Goku, who flat out said ''welp I'll just have to win then, NICE'', without even thinking about all the other lives he will ruin by doing so.

[DiamondX]

Well, the winner gets the Super DBs, so it's pretty much confirmed they are wishing eveyone back.

Honestly, I would like to see U6 win. I'm pretty sure they would wish everyone back too.

[Ratcicle King]

We thought they'd use the Super DBs to revive Trunks' multiverse, but they didn't, for all we know, they can't do that.

My bet is that the Zen'Os will love the tournament and Goku will convince them to let the universes live so they can host more of these in the future.

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And I know someone's going to end up bringing up that "That's how Toriyama said Goku should act! His heroic personality was more from the anime!"

Personally, I've been under the impression that whoever has been writing Super, and specifically how they write Goku, didn't really understand the manga, either.

Goku, for all his selfishness, naivety, shortsighteness, whatever, I never got the impression he was truly as moronic or as reckless as he's been portrayed in Super. Maybe that's bias toward the original anime or whatever, but the way he's been portrayed through most of Super has always left a bad taste in my mouth. The way he behaves when he receives his Super Saiyan God powers, and the general way his first fight with Beerus plays out really rubbed me the wrong way, for example, compared to how it was handled in Battle of Gods. Goku might toy with his opponents and hold back for a bit while he's sizing them up (as he did so with Freeza), but I can't help but feel he was just fucking around for most of that fight.

Goku, in Super, still has his moments, but I don't think I've ever had a moment where I've really felt like "What the actual fuck is wrong with Goku" until I watched Super. And that's even accounting for things Toriyama had a direct hand in like the recent movies.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

The best thing I can really say is that it seems like the dub is going to try cut down on it a little (At least as much as it can when it's not compared to the original). For example, when Goku's training on King Kai's planet in Episode 6, while he still gets impatient, and there's still a want to fight Beerus, he says that he's only training now to go back down and convince Beerus to leave because Goku technically lured him to Earth and coaxed him into a fight.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I'm not even sure Toriyama understands Goku anymore. The dude had been away from his franchise for a very long time, prior to the existence of Battle of Gods, and as most of us know, he's a very forgetful person, often times on purpose to preserve his creativity. If you compare the Goku that we see in Super to the Goku in the Artificial Human and Majin Boo arcs, you see a very different character. Yes Goku is still a battle hungry idiot, look no further than his insistence that he fight Pure Boo without fusing with Vegeta, but he's certainly a more caring, selfless person. In the Artificial Human arc, he put his trust in his son to defeat the major villain, instead of making himself the strongest. In the Majin Boo arc, he was willing to do whatever it took to defeat Boo and save his friends, even if that meant losing his individuality ala the Potara fusion. Goku grew as a character, and Super has basically stripped him of that development. 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

I'm not even sure Toriyama understands Goku anymore. The dude had been away from his franchise for a very long time, prior to the existence of Battle of Gods, and as most of us know, he's a very forgetful person, often times on purpose to preserve his creativity. If you compare the Goku that we see in Super to the Goku in the Artificial Human and Majin Boo arcs, you see a very different character. Yes Goku is still a battle hungry idiot, look no further than his insistence that he fight Pure Boo without fusing with Vegeta, but he's certainly a more caring, selfless person. In the Artificial Human arc, he put his trust in his son to defeat the major villain, instead of making himself the strongest. In the Majin Boo arc, he was willing to do whatever it took to defeat Boo and save his friends, even if that meant losing his individuality ala the Potara fusion. Goku grew as a character, and Super has basically stripped him of that development. 

I would even disagree with that. If we go back to the Raditz saga, when Goku was training on King Kai's planet, it wasn't for the hell of it, it's because he knew how powerful Vegeta and Nappa was and they would obliterate everyone and everything. Sure, he lets Vegeta go at the end to fight him another day, but the point still stands that he's a character who didn't just train for the fight, he did it because he realized everyone was screwed if he didn't do it. 

He's so bad in Super that he's pretty much forgotten the character development he's learned about two times at this point. Stop trying to toy with your enemies because it constantly keeps getting people killed. It happened with Cell and Gohan, it happened again with Golden Frieza, and yet here we are, with the same stupid song and dance all over again.

[Meta77]

If others think they know how goku should act go write a fan fiction.  it's been stated multiple times goku is meant to be naive but has a strong sense of justice but at the same time likes to constantly fight. I say he's doing fine

[Zaysho]

Actually, even at the beginning of Freeza, King Kai told him absolutely not to fight Freeza and he actually considered staying away from Freeza (albeit was a bit disappointed) and prioritized wishing his friends back (just flipped the manga to find this). He ultimately had no choice because of how events unfolded.

 

6 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

If others think they know how goku should act go write a fan fiction.  it's been stated multiple times goku is meant to be naive but has a strong sense of justice but at the same time likes to constantly fight. I say he's doing fine

People are critiquing the show and pointing out that it's inconsistent with other canon portrayals of Goku, I'm not seeing what the issue is.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

If others think they know how goku should act go write a fan fiction.  it's been stated multiple times goku is meant to be naive but has a strong sense of justice but at the same time likes to constantly fight. I say he's doing fine

Except he doesn't even have a remotely strong sense of justice in Super. That's the problem. It's funny you mention fanfiction though, cuz Super certainly seems like one with recolor transformations and fan service out the wazoo.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And I know someone's going to end up bringing up that "That's how Toriyama said Goku should act! His heroic personality was more from the anime!",

Actually not even that. IIRC His more heroic (and sensible to a certain degree) nature was more so something that we have the dub to thank for, which if true is an improvement if you ask me.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Actually not even that. IIRC His more heroic (and sensible to a certain degree) nature was more so something that we have the dub to thank for, which if true is an improvement if you ask me.

Naw, Toei definitely portrayed Goku as a more heroic figure, especially in some of the films and GT.  

[Zaysho]

4 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Actually not even that. IIRC His more heroic (and sensible to a certain degree) nature was more so something that we have the dub to thank for, which if true is an improvement if you ask me.

At the beginning of the dub, he's pretty generic. Then around Cell they ran into problems because the dub writers realized they couldn't completely justify some of the things Goku did. I think by the Buu saga they hit a pretty good balance. It may not have been completely accurate to the original Japanese, but it's actually one that I liked.

The original Japanese version has it too, but not quite to the same degree as the early Barry Watson days of DBZ.

2 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Naw, Toei definitely portrayed Goku as a more heroic figure, especially in some of the films and GT.  

That too.

[Meta77]

6 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Except he doesn't even have a remotely strong sense of justice in Super. That's the problem. It's funny you mention fanfiction though, cuz Super certainly seems like one with recolor transformations and fan service out the wazoo.

Yes he does.going back to help trunks. Fighting over chi chi being killed in that timeline.  at first he liked a strong opponent but over time saw the true threat black was.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

8 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

If others think they know how goku should act go write a fan fiction.  it's been stated multiple times goku is meant to be naive but has a strong sense of justice but at the same time likes to constantly fight. I say he's doing fine

So, basically. "If your character acts like a flanderized shit, that contradicts actual manga material (see Zaysho's example above, or the Vegito transformation and fight against Super Buu) then you shouldn't complain because that's how he's meant to be.

Also, the irony is you're wrong, because Goku doesn't even act like that. There's a difference between being naive, and being a complete and total idiot. Goku isn't the smartest character around, but he isn't so braindead that he's unable to count, he's unable to stop acting like a hyperactive child, and acts like an overall idiot. An good example would be Cell because Goku's naivety and his pride in his son made him unable to realize Gohan doesn't like fighting until Piccolo snapped at Goku and told him straight to his face.

Compare this to the above example where Beerus shouts at Goku for sparking this nonsense off.

Look at Goku's face here. He truly realizes that he's fucked up. He's horrified for letting his son be thrown into this situation because of his own nativity and arrogance. He feels actual guilt for letting him get to this point, and getting so cocky to give Cell a Sensu Bean of all things to allow Cell to get his strength back. Goku then makes the ultimate sacrifice to try redeem himself by teleporting an exploding Cell back to King Kai's planet.

And what do we have above? Beerus calling out Goku for making the same stupid mistake on an even larger scale, and instead of realizing how stupid Goku was to do it, Goku acts like fucking Beast Boy from Teen Titans Go and cries about *gasp* responsibility! Because Goku as a character never had to deal with that right?

4 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Yes he does.going back to help trunks. Fighting over chi chi being killed in that timeline.  at first he liked a strong opponent but over time saw the true threat black was.

And yet he's now risking Chi-Chi, Goten, Gohan, Videl, Pan's, Bra's, and the lives of everyone else for the sake of a stupid tournament. Your "strong justice" hero everybody! 

Keep in mind this is something even worse than what any of the villains have done to date. If they lose, Goku will have single handily have killed over their entire universe, including gods. Think for a moment. Goku, who supposedly has a strong sense of justice...has now outmatched Frieza, Cell, Buu, Black, and so many others in one minute. Hell, at least when Buu mindlessly destroyed planets, he could only do it one at a time.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

21 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

If others think they know how goku should act go write a fan fiction.  it's been stated multiple times goku is meant to be naive but has a strong sense of justice but at the same time likes to constantly fight. I say he's doing fine

Let's be honest though, Goku may not be the smartest, but he still has no excuse to have not learned from the same screw-ups that keeping happening at this point.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Just now, Meta77 said:

Yes he does.going back to help trunks. Fighting over chi chi being killed in that timeline.  at first he liked a strong opponent but over time saw the true threat black was.

Goku has a very selective sense of justice in Super. For example, in the very same arc you are pulling examples from, Goku summons Zeno, Zeno destroys Trunks's timeline, and Goku feels no remorse whatsoever.  

[Meta77]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Let's be honest though, Goku may not be the smartest, but he still has no excuse to have not learned from the same screw-ups that keeping happening at this point.

But again goku did not mean for this to happen. He just wanted a innocent tournament.  he did not think Zeno would wipe out the universe's. 

1 minute ago, Lord Vader said:

Goku has a very selective sense of justice in Super. For example, in the very same arc you are pulling examples from, Goku summons Zeno, Zeno destroys Trunks's timeline, and Goku feels no remorse whatsoever.  

He had no choice that was a no win option.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

So...? That doesn't mean he can't feel remorse. His actions ended the lives out countless people. 

[DiamondX]

I 100% agree with what @Ryannumber1gamer said besides one thing.

He didn't reach Goku Black's level of destruction.

I don't want to go into detail to not spoil stuff, but Black did a lot worse things than Goku.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, Goku Black (Diamond) said:

I 100% agree with what @Ryannumber1gamer said besides one thing.

He didn't reach Goku Black's level of destruction.

I don't want to go into detail to not spoil stuff, but Black did a lot worse things than Goku.

Well, keep in mind I'm speaking about biggest level of destruction in a short time, unless Goku Black successfully destroyed an entire universe in a matter of seconds.

[DiamondX]

He destroyed 90% of the entire Multiverse.

Well, Earth took a year, but besides that, he did it pretty quickly by killing all the Supreme Kais.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Well, if you wanna get technical, either way, Goku's either killing off his entire universe, or else he's gonna kill off the entire multiverse.

So. 

Goku is Goku Black?

[DiamondX]

Well, they said the Super DBs are the prize, and since they can do ANYTHING, it's obvious they are gonna wish everyone back.

Some people have theories on the Tournament becoming an Universal War.

...

Zamasu's intentions weren't really that bad after all.

[Marcello]

Beerus warned Goku something bad could happen if he bothered Zeno with this tournament and Goku didn't really buy it. At this point there's not much he can do.

It's not really different than when Trunks came and warned him about the Androids. He knew they'd all die against them, but when Bulma suggested taking out Gero before he finishes them he says he'd like to fight them.

1 minute ago, Goku Black (Diamond) said:

Well, they said the Super DBs are the prize, and since they can do ANYTHING, it's obvious they are gonna wish everyone back.

Some people have theories on the Tournament becoming an Universal War.

...

Zamasu's intentions weren't really that bad after all.

Can they do anything? Surely the Namekian that created them wasn't more powerful than Zeno and the wishes of the Dragon Balls we know couldn't exceed their creator's power.