Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[DiamondX]

Ummm, the Super Dragon Balls were made by the Dragon God Zalama.

[Marcello]

Either way Zeno is presumably still more powerful, since he's supposed to be the most powerful being in existence. But, who knows in the end. 

[Ratcicle King]

tl;dr

Zamasu: "No one can craft a better zero mortals plan."

Goku: "Hold my beer."

 

But seriously tho', I'm watching this and I can look past all the crap at this point, I'm trying to give this arc a chance, however, one thing I can't forgive, a thing that genuinely pissed me off was Goku getting Gohan to join the Tournament.

Did he convince him in a reasonable manner? Did he take his time to sit down and debate the situation? Nope, he straight up got to Gohan, said ''hey if we love this universe's dead, you NEED to go'' and then even got Gohan's wife, who doesn't even KNOW the stakes, to help convincing him.

Doesn't seem like a big deal? Well, when was last time Goku forced Gohan to fight against his will on a deadly tournament using the stakes as an excuse? Oh right, THE FUCKING CELL GAMES.

You know, that nice adventure where he was TORTURED, WATCHED HIS FRIENDS DIE, WATCHED HIS DAD DIE, TURNED INTO A PSYCHOPATH AND ALMOST DIED HORRIBLY. YEAH LET'S BRING THAT TRAUMA BACK GOKU, ONLY THIS TIME IT'S WORSE BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST HIS PARENTS AND FRIENDS' DEATH IN HIS CONSCIENCE BUT ALSO HIS WIFE AND BABY DAUGHTER.

And again, Goku treats this like it's nothing, he just forced his son to the same hell he promised he would never have to face again, risked everyone's lives and laughs at it because hey he's a plucky hero, it's all in good fun.

[Marcello]

Gohan needed to fight in the Cell Games since he was the only one who had a chance against Cell. Goku didn't make him fight for the fun of it, he did it because it was the only way they'd survive. The only dick move Goku made there was give Cell a Senzu Bean.

And Gohan is an adult now. Goku didn't force him, he decided to on his own. If anything it's a dick move not to tell people what the stakes are. If they're participating, they deserve to know what's going on.

[Ratcicle King]

Power or no power, he sent a little kid to fight a monster stronger than anything they've ever faced, on the notion that ''hey he's strong he'll do it'', Piccolo called him out HARD on it and Goku realized the mistake, at no point that was justified, the world was at stake? Yes, but he also did it on the stupid concept that Gohan enjoyed fighting like he does, the MOMENT he realizes it's not the case he's ready to jump back on the fight.

Here he just doesn't care, Goku tried convincing him and when it didn't work, he told Gohan the stakes to pressure him into it, just because Gohan is an adult doesn't mean it makes Goku less of a dick for literally going ''come on pleaaaseeee! Oh you don't want to? Well then just letting you know, your entire family will die if you don't do it, so yeah, ready to go?!''.

[Meta77]

40 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

tl;dr

Zamasu: "No one can craft a better zero mortals plan."

Goku: "Hold my beer."

 

But seriously tho', I'm watching this and I can look past all the crap at this point, I'm trying to give this arc a chance, however, one thing I can't forgive, a thing that genuinely pissed me off was Goku getting Gohan to join the Tournament.

Did he convince him in a reasonable manner? Did he take his time to sit down and debate the situation? Nope, he straight up got to Gohan, said ''hey if we love this universe's dead, you NEED to go'' and then even got Gohan's wife, who doesn't even KNOW the stakes, to help convincing him.

Doesn't seem like a big deal? Well, when was last time Goku forced Gohan to fight against his will on a deadly tournament using the stakes as an excuse? Oh right, THE FUCKING CELL GAMES.

You know, that nice adventure where he was TORTURED, WATCHED HIS FRIENDS DIE, WATCHED HIS DAD DIE, TURNED INTO A PSYCHOPATH AND ALMOST DIED HORRIBLY. YEAH LET'S BRING THAT TRAUMA BACK GOKU, ONLY THIS TIME IT'S WORSE BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST HIS PARENTS AND FRIENDS' DEATH IN HIS CONSCIENCE BUT ALSO HIS WIFE AND BABY DAUGHTER.

And again, Goku treats this like it's nothing, he just forced his son to the same hell he promised he would never have to face again, risked everyone's lives and laughs at it because hey he's a plucky hero, it's all in good fun.

I'm sure Gohan was not that weak minded after the fight to have trauma seeing how well he lived life and still fought up through the buu saga. Had

[Nepenthe]

1 hour ago, Ratcicle King said:

Power or no power, he sent a little kid to fight a monster stronger than anything they've ever faced, on the notion that ''hey he's strong he'll do it'', Piccolo called him out HARD on it and Goku realized the mistake, at no point that was justified, the world was at stake? Yes, but he also did it on the stupid concept that Gohan enjoyed fighting like he does, the MOMENT he realizes it's not the case he's ready to jump back on the fight.

Lol I just have to say: Piccolo honestly had no high ground to be talking to Goku about the way he pushed a readied (albeit anxious) Gohan into the Cell tournament when his idea of training him all those years ago was just dumping a scared, inexperienced, four-year old child in the woods with the elements and wild animals waiting to pick him off and just waiting around, and then afterwards trying to throw him into a fight against intergalactic Saiyan warriors he was not ready for which meant Piccolo eventually had to sacrifice his life to save Gohan. If he's gonna shit on Goku for his Saiyan dumbness at least do so outside of a glass house.

[Ratcicle King]

To be fair, Piccolo at that point in the series was an asshole who didn't care for anyone other than himself, it was through bonding with Gohan he even began developing into the guy who called Goku out during the Cell games in the first place.

Goku on the other hand didn't have such excuse, as he not only was Gohan's father, but also literally had just spent a year with the kid in the Time Chamber, to not know such an important detail about his son like that is pretty dumb.

I mean when you think about it, for Piccolo to chew Goku for doing the same thing he did pre-character development just shows how he changed, as he's basically admitting using a kid on a fight like that just because said kid has a lot of hidden power(Which can only be unlocked through stress may I add) like he did is a pretty shitty thing to do.

[Nepenthe]

Even if Piccolo didn't give a damn about Gohan emotionally he's the one who outright demanded to take Gohan away and train him, and from a strictly utilitarian perspective it doesn't actually make much sense to just dump a toddler in the woods at the risk of dying, even if that toddler is half-Saiyan. I don't need to be attached to a dog to know that the best way to train it to fetch isn't to toss a ball on the highway.

Subsequently, I don't think it's fair to say that Goku should've known that Gohan would've choked when Gohan had already volunteered plenty of times beforehand for dangerous missions and reacted instinctively to life-or-death situations on Namek where- once again- he wasn't strong enough to hold his own against many of the threats there anyway. I mean FFS, Goku had to yell at him to get off the planet after turning Super Saiyan, twice, all because he wanted to see the battle through with his father and prove useful. And then when Gohan finally has the power level to defeat a villain at his best, that's when he wants to take a pacifist stance and get his friends fucked up? After volunteering to go into the time chamber with Goku, and going against his mother's wishes the day of the tournament when he could've totally sat it out then and there if it was really against what he felt in his heart?

The whole thing is plot contrivance for the sake of highlighting the physiological and subsequent ethical differences between Saiyans and their half-human offspring, as well as a way to achieve tension, kill off some folks, and pass the torch (lol look how that turned out). It wasn't all that much a bad reflection on Goku's instincts and abilities as a teacher and father. The moment was Gohan's to have, and for all intents and purposes he wanted to take it, because once he started getting more confident as a fighter he began making his own decisions, but then suddenly "Oh, let me try to appeal to Cell's better nature." Really?

Fuck that. Gohan deserved to turn into the underpowered dweeby disappointment he is. xP

[-Robin-]

Gohan didn't want to spare Cell from death, he was warning Cell not to set him off, since Angry!Gohan was a juggernaut that couldn't be stopped. It's not a coincidence that Super Saiyan 2 was never named until the Buu Saga - Gohan SSJ2 was meant to tie in with his emotions and be exclusive to him, hence why Angry Gohan was a focal point in the Cell Games.

 

Lest we forget, Gohan was all about killing Cell at the beginning of the Cell Games, when Goku, the one who up to this point Gohan thought was stronger than him, was the one fighting. Asking him why people are surprised at Goku's strength, asking why he didn't just go all out from the start, and asking why he didn't just finish Cell off. 

 

Gohan was free to be assertive like that before, because, for all he knew, he was not the strongest fighter alive. Angry Gohan during the Saiyan invasion was not stronger than Vegeta, and Angry Gohan during Namek couldn't keep up with Freeza's final form at 1%. It really didn't matter what he thought about the situation, because he couldn't call the shots. Cut to the Cell Games, and now we have a Gohan that not only knows he could beat Cell, but now knows that suddenly everyone's eyes are on him, and his judgment, and his actions, since they are now pivotal for humanity's future. His human nature for peace and diplomacy, and his ambitions to be a scholar, someone who leads the world intellectually, came out and stayed out for as long as it could, but ultimately, 16 reminded him that combat can be inevitable, and that he must take action now, for he really and finally was the last hope.

 

[Pawn]

While Goku has made some unbelievably stupid mistakes in Super (like forgetting the Senzu beans and the Mafuba seal), I don't feel like him reminding Zeno of the tournament was one of them. It's not as though he was warned about the result of it. As someone who found Goku kind of dull during a lot of Z, I enjoyed that he defied Beerus and inadvertently put every universe in jeopardy. It's a very Sun Wukong (the Chinese trickster that Goku was originally based on) thing to do and I would like to see more of it.

That said, it does bother me (and this has been mentioned above) that no-one seems to care for the other universes right now. I'm sure they will later and Goku is bound to get his comeuppance in the end (perhaps he will lose and Universe 7 will have to depend on someone weaker like Gohan?) but it would be nice for Gohan or Beerus to acknowledge this.

[Ratcicle King]

2 minutes ago, Pawn said:

While Goku has made some unbelievably stupid mistakes in Super (like forgetting the Senzu beans and the Mafuba seal), I don't feel like him reminding Zeno of the tournament was one of them. It's not as though he was warned about the result of it. 

He kinda was, both Beerus and Whis flat out told him to not do it because Zen'O's ideas for the tournament could spell trouble.

[Pawn]

1 minute ago, Ratcicle King said:

He kinda was, both Beerus and Whis flat out told him to not do it because Zen'O's ideas for the tournament could spell trouble.

Yeah, but it's one thing to tell him that it could spell trouble and another to claim that it will end in the death of 11 universes.

[-Robin-]

What, Whis telling Goku that there were 18 universes before Zen'o had a tantrum didn't give it away the first time?

[Ratcicle King]

He was warned, no one knew the details but Beerus stated Zen'O is unpredictable, and coupled with his power, giving him any ideas could mean the end of everything.

1 minute ago, -Robin- said:

What, Whis telling Goku that there were 18 universes before Zen'o had a tantrum didn't give it away the first time?

Not even that, Goku flat out SAW how dangerous Zen'O is, he called him to take care of Zamasu, what did he do? Oh, fuck this entire multiverse, problem solved.

HOW did Goku think it would end well after witnessing Zen'O's mentality is beyond me.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, Ratcicle King said:

He kinda was, both Beerus and Whis flat out told him to not do it because Zen'O's ideas for the tournament could spell trouble.

To be fair, Beerus and Whis' caution and advice isn't all-encompassing, and considering they just hang out on Earth like any other cast member it's hard to take their authority as seriously as when they first appeared. Goku is now buddying around with the king of the universe while Beerus still grovels in fear. They outright lied about the strength of one of their team mates during the tournament arc (which also would've resulted in the upending of their world had they lost). Beerus was completely wrong about the way time travel worked in regards to Future Trunks' dilemma. And on top of that he never follows through with his threats of destroying any of the cast members or Earth. Beerus and Whis have somewhat failed on making sure boundaries were maintained and the pecking order inarguable, and now Beerus wants to try and keep Goku contained from the idea of a universal tournament when he knows good and well Saiyans and fighting are like dogs after cars? ohokay.jpg.

[Ratcicle King]

However, Beerus was literally about to Hakai Goku if he tried anything, something he only did before to ZAMASU, even after all his petty arguments, the Battle of Gods fight, the many times he was pissed at someone or something, Beerus NEVER did that and saved it for the one guy responsible for a lot of death and pain.

That's one hell of a red flag if you ask me.

 

Also just to point out, I'm not on the ''Goku killed 11 universes'' side, I think that's a bit of exaggeration, however, I do think Goku, aware or not of the consequences, has some blame on this and his complete and utter lack of care even after knowing the situation is my problem with him right now.

[Nepenthe]

But Goku did try something, right in front of Beerus' face, and all Beerus did when he got back is punch him in the shoulder. He didn't treat the situation with any more urgency than he has other life-or-death scenarios, so of course it's not going to give Goku any real pause (especially not in Super where they've made him about as sharp as a sack of wet mice but whatever). Granted, Goku is responsible for kickstarting the whole idea since he had to remind Zen-Chan about it, but I think it's a bit of an overstep to characterize Goku as completely uncaring. Goku certainly doesn't want anything bad to happen, but he's got the reckless competitiveness of a bloodthirsty Saiyan and perhaps the arrogance of both his species and as someone who more often than not can come through and get the job done. I like the idea of this tournament going to shit in a similar way as the Black arc, but if Goku were to have a character takeaway or moment, what would it be that wouldn't change the fundamental aspect of his character- the desire to fight the strongest thing ever for the sake of it- that makes him an interesting superhero in the first place?

[Soniman]

I think Goku is getting a bit to hard of a rep from fans for this personally. I don't blame him putting the Universes in jeaporady because despite vague warnings and unrelated events, he wasn't to know, especially since he believed him and Zeno to be on friendly terms so he figured his buddy just wanted to see a regular fighting tournament. 

Now that he's aware of the danger what matter is how he'll be portrayed going forward. I actually do want to see it getting called out a bit because even in the worst of times (purposely not killing Buu and inadvertently getting Earth blown up and all of his friends, including both his sons,  killed) no one has ever really told him how dangerous that can be seriously until Beerus so I think that's long overdue, especially now that their existence is at state 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

But Goku did try something, right in front of Beerus' face, and all Beerus did when he got back is punch him in the shoulder. He didn't treat the situation with any more urgency than he has other life-or-death scenarios, so of course it's not going to give Goku any real pause (especially not in Super where they've made him about as sharp as a sack of wet mice but whatever). Granted, Goku is responsible for kickstarting the whole idea since he had to remind Zen-Chan about it, but I think it's a bit of an overstep to characterize Goku as completely uncaring. Goku certainly doesn't want anything bad to happen, but he's got the reckless competitiveness of a bloodthirsty Saiyan and perhaps the arrogance of both his species and as someone who more often than not can come through and get the job done. I like the idea of this tournament going to shit in a similar way as the Black arc, but if Goku were to have a character takeaway or moment, what would it be that wouldn't change the fundamental aspect of his character- the desire to fight the strongest thing ever for the sake of it- that makes him an interesting superhero in the first place?

My biggest problem is that the issue could've been easily avoided, and kept Goku's character in tact is if they simply had Zen simply remember from the multiverse tournament to begin with, and Beerus realizes the true danger that could now entail if they get on his bad side and don't take part. And look at that, suddenly Goku looks a lot more heroic because's he in it to help save everyone from a situation set up that was out of his control. He can still enjoy the fights, sure. But if that simple change was made, the argument could've totally just been flipped that Goku was in it to save everyone else, and this was only just a small bonus, rather than him kickstarting the whole mess and now placing a lot of people in danger out of arrogance. 

[Nepenthe]

I'm not following. Future Zen hasn't seen a fighting tournament before. Present Zen remembers just fine. That's the main reason the tournament's being held.

Also, I don't think the issue is that Goku looks unheroic with any of this (mainly because I don't think there's much of an ethical issue to begin with), in part because Goku has always been an inherently selfish and thus somewhat unconventional hero. He initiates and escalates conflicts mainly to satisfy his need for competition because he's a Saiyan. For him to ever realize the downsides of this from a human point of view and, even worse, to take a step away from his insatiable need to fight and become more like lame-ass Gohan, would be to neuter half the appeal of the character in the first place.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not following. Future Zen hasn't seen a fighting tournament before. Present Zen remembers just fine. That's the main reason the tournament's being held.

Ah, sorry then. I thought the context here was that Zen had simply forgotten and Goku reminded him. Apologies

[Nepenthe]

6 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Ah, sorry then. I thought the context here was that Zen had simply forgotten and Goku reminded him. Apologies

xD It's fine. Just watch the Black arc all the way through. It's a doozy.

[Ratcicle King]

Actually, Ryan is right, Present Zen'O forgot the tournament and Goku reminded him about it. He then decided to make the tournament we're seeing right now (U7 vs U9) as a small preview of the multiversal one because Future Zen'O never saw anything like it before.

[DiamondX]

Episodes 79 and 80 Spoilers:

Spoiler

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/status/831406708245225472