[DELETED]

[Remynaka]

So we go back to taking things away without fixing whats there first? And taking boosting away STILL doesn't fix the problem with everyone else? So far everything else still stands, I'm not talking about what to do with sonic's game play, I'm talking about everyone ELSE. They can't BOOST anyway. Just saying.

edit... Ok.. so take BOOSTING out and exchange it with a spin dash.. same problem everyone CAN'T spin dash. That's a Sonic and Shadow thing.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Vicki Turner

[Diogenes]

If what Knuckles was doing in SA1 and 2 wasn't good, either fix it or do something else?

Yes, let's do something else. Let's, in fact, do something that belongs in a Sonic game. Like, perhaps, Sonic gameplay.

Look, if they're just going to insert any random "good" gameplay into the series, why should I bother buying this over any other good game? Even if Sonic still has Sonic gameplay, I'm now paying full price for a fraction of the game I want.

If all you want is for everyone to play like sonic then the fuck's the point in playing as anyone else BUT sonic?

Variety. Different takes on the same core concept.

Yeah yeah yeah bah " But asshole, it worked in the 90's 8D " Yeah, so? It was also on limited hardware.

That has nothing to do with anything.

everyone CAN'T spin dash. That's a Sonic and Shadow thing.

And Tails, and Knuckles, and Cream, and Blaze, and Espio, and Vector, and if they really needed it I think most of the rest of the cast could have it or something similar (didn't Amy have a sort of running-in-place dash, like a spindash without the spin, in one of the Advances?). And the spindash doesn't dominate the gameplay like the boost does, anyway; there'd still be plenty of room for each characters' unique abilities. They'd just be applied in ways that play like a Sonic game instead of any random way that sounds good.

[Multikaris]

Don't you just hate it when you are going to say the exact same thing, yet another person beats you to it. >.>

However, I would like to say for Amy's SA1, they shouldn't make all her levels running away from a certain robot.

Wrong. The critics don't like Blaze outside Sonic Rush. IMO, she has to stay in Sonic Rush and in Sonic Rush only.

The critics only liked Knuckles from the classic era. In the Adventure era, it was mixed. The only side character the critics like all around is Tails.

They would play like in SRA and S3&K but in 3D.

[Remynaka]

Yes, let's do something else. Let's, in fact, do something that belongs in a Sonic game. Like, perhaps, Sonic gameplay.

Look, if they're just going to insert any random "good" gameplay into the series, why should I bother buying this over any other good game? Even if Sonic still has Sonic gameplay, I'm now paying full price for a fraction of the game I want.

Variety. Different takes on the same core concept.

That has nothing to do with anything.

And Tails, and Knuckles, and Cream, and Blaze, and Espio, and Vector, and if they really needed it I think most of the rest of the cast could have it or something similar (didn't Amy have a sort of running-in-place dash, like a spindash without the spin, in one of the Advances?). And the spindash doesn't dominate the gameplay like the boost does, anyway; there'd still be plenty of room for each characters' unique abilities. They'd just be applied in ways that play like a Sonic game instead of any random way that sounds good.

All I'm saying is that if everyone is going to play like sonic, then I don't want other characters in there. Just give me more levels. Knuckles is main;y a fighter, so I rather he have gameplay that is more true to his character recent movesets. Same with Silver and everyone else. Giving him a speed move when he isn't a speed character makes no sense to me in this day and age. That's like saying " I'm going to give sonic silver's play style because we can " See how that doesn't make any sense? That's what it sounds like to me when people want EVERYONE under the fucking sun to play EXACTLY like Sonic. Everyone isn't fast like him, so WHY does sega have to be limited to speed like gameplay when it's on other characters.

So you're and everyone else is sore about sega adding other elements to the game? I get that.. but what if whatever they do this time I dunno... WORKS? That's all I'm saying, but whatever no one is going to agree because everyone is only HIDING the fact they REALLY only want sonic as the playable character by asking for reSKINS instead of other actual characters.

Edit.. no it's not everyone thing. It's a flawed gameplay thing to make everyone play like sonic clones. ( talking about the spindash.) Giving them ALL that move makes them sonic clones in gameplay.. which is what I'm saying I DON'T want. :c

Edited October 6, 2012 by Vicki Turner

[Wraith]

I don't get why everyone says that "Playing as Sonic is BORING now. We NEEED other characters." If you don't like playing as Sonic, what's so different about flying Sonic? or Sonic that can break through walls?

I just can't help but not care if the other characters are playable. I would rather have them have different gameplay styles completely than be Sonic clones.

[Ming Ming Hatsune]

They would play like in SRA and S3&K but in 3D.

Now, how does that even work?

[Diogenes]

Knuckles is main;y a fighter, so I rather he have gameplay that is more true to his character recent movesets.

When has Knuckles had a moveset that's built for a fighter? Dude's got a simple punch combo and a dive attack, that's about it. His moveset's always been built more for exploration, with his strength being a fairly minor element.

Giving him a speed move when he isn't a speed character makes no sense to me in this day and age.

Making characters who aren't "speed characters" doesn't make sense for this series.

That's like saying " I'm going to give sonic silver's play style because we can " See how that doesn't make any sense?

Well yeah, but that's not what anyone's suggesting. It's not an arbitrary decision. It's a matter of fitting the character to the kind of gameplay the series is based around.

Everyone isn't fast like him, so WHY does sega have to be limited to speed like gameplay when it's on other characters.

You think maybe the decade-plus of alternate gameplay sucking ass and ruining games has something to do with it? But even aside from that, going fast is a necessary element of the series. Making a Sonic character that isn't at least reasonably quick is like making a Mario character who cannot jump.

So you're and everyone else is sore about sega adding other elements to the game? I get that.. but what if whatever they do this time I dunno... WORKS?

If it doesn't work with Sonic gameplay then it still doesn't belong. I mean, take the werehog. On its own I think it's a decent game; nothing revolutionary, but a solid platformer-brawler with a lot of style. But it's not a Sonic game, and should never have been in a Sonic game.

but whatever no one is going to agree because everyone is only HIDING the fact they REALLY only want sonic as the playable character by asking for reSKINS instead of other actual characters.

Congrats on making shit up instead of taking people at their word. Is it my turn to make up lies about what you think?

It's a flawed gameplay thing to make everyone play like sonic clones. ( talking about the spindash.) Giving them ALL that move makes them sonic clones in gameplay.. which is what I'm saying I DON'T want. :c

Or the spindash is just one ability that they share (like jumping), and they differentiate from each other through other abilities. Like how in S3&K everyone had the spindash, but Tails could fly, Knuckles could glide, climb, and break certain obstacles and also jumped lower, and Sonic had the instashield and elemental shield powers.

[Remynaka]

If making ONLY speed characters is the ONLY way to make characters in this series then Sonic isn't anyone special then. Because again if everyone is fast like him whats the point? They would be sonic clones and we all like clones don't we? And I made a mistake, I should've said what reskins is what it SEEMS people want by wanting everyone to have the same moves as sonic. Cause thats what they would be if EVERYONE and their mom with a dog gets all of Sonic's moves. A reskin. I don't want reskins. Hell if Sega can't make them different to where I'm not playing a reskin then I don't want them playable, it's as simple as that.

Ryu doesn't play like Cammy does she? No if she did she'll be a shoto and many people I know hate making everyone a shoto. I said that to say it feels like people just want sonic moves on characters who weren't MADE to have his moves. Vector as far as recently since heroes isn't a speed character. Giving him a flat out spin dash makes no sense, Same with silver. They can work in the game if the play styles makes sense and works. Comparing the spin dash to jumping I feel is a little out there. It isn't like a jump. Everyone can jump, but everyone can't spin dash/BOOST/run at the speed of sound. IT doesn't work that way.

A better example, Sonic can punch right? So because he can punch lets give him Knuckles gameplay he had in SA1. And since everyone can punch, lets give everyone that as well. You see how that fails? Maybe I'm not saying this correctly but imho a spindash or BOOST is a special skill, a skill that belongs to speed characters. And that's as far as I know is Sonic, Shadow, Espio and I believe that's it. Knuckles, Silver, Big, Tails, Vector, Charmy, Cream, aren't speed characters. That's all I'm saying. I just believe that IF these characters become important again cause they aren't in sega's eyes then I want them to play like they should.. not like a clone of Sonic.

[Diogenes]

If making ONLY speed characters is the ONLY way to make characters in this series then Sonic isn't anyone special then.

Is Mario not special because he goes out to save the princess with his bro and two Toads that play exactly the same as he does? Does it make the game any less that the characters are the same? And I'm not even suggesting that they go that far; I support the characters having unique abilities, I just want them to be built on the same underlying structure.

Cause thats what they would be if EVERYONE and their mom with a dog gets all of Sonic's moves.

Did you miss me pointing out how S3&K has characters that share some moves (the spindash included) yet still have their own unique abilities? I'm not suggesting reskins, I'm suggesting a unified underlying structure and building the different characters off of it.

Ryu doesn't play like Cammy does she?

No, but they both fight, don't they? They both play like characters in a fighting game? You don't have one character playing like a fighting game character, one playing like a platformer, one playing like an FPS, etc etc?

Everyone can jump, but everyone can't spin dash/BOOST/run at the speed of sound. IT doesn't work that way.

Why not, besides the fact that you don't like it?

A better example, Sonic can punch right? So because he can punch lets give him Knuckles gameplay he had in SA1.

This is dumb, because SA Knuckles gameplay isn't Sonic gameplay, and this is the Sonic series, which should be based in Sonic gameplay.

You see how that fails? Maybe I'm not saying this correctly but imho a spindash or BOOST is a special skill, a skill that belongs to speed characters.

I just listed about half a dozen other characters who have had the spindash at one point or another, several of which don't fall into the category of "speed characters" as you consider it. I think history proves you wrong.

I just believe that IF these characters become important again cause they aren't in sega's eyes then I want them to play like they should.. not like a clone of Sonic.

And I think how they should play is like a Sonic game, because they're Sonic characters. Forcing random gameplay styles into the series has never done it any good, regardless of whether or not the gameplay fits the characters' abilities.

[Remynaka]

So we can't expand on the sonic gameplay? Which I guess right now is being able to boost and run fast. And I mentioned about how I thought they were/ felt like reskins in sonic and knuckles because it's just sonic with one added skill. Flying/breaking into walls. Which worked back then when it was 2D and on limited tech. Now we have many different styles in the game play, Knuckles can now punch, we have Silver who has a completely different set of skills this series is known for, Amy has a hammer. They all have very different moves and skills that set them apart from Sonic's speed gameplay. Do I want everyone to fit in in a way that makes sense to the game and the characters we have now, YES. Do I want them to play exactly like Sonic making him kindof moot ( in my opinion because he isn't the only one who can boost now if they go that route ) making everyone feel like a reskin and pointless seeing as if everyone is running and doing everything Sonic can do. Why am I not Sonic in those levels? NO.

[Diogenes]

So we can't expand on the sonic gameplay?

Hey guess what no one said ever. (that)

And I mentioned about how I thought they were/ felt like reskins in sonic and knuckles because it's just sonic with one added skill. Flying/breaking into walls.

Two skills, at least; gliding and climbing. Which changed quite a bit of how you approach the game. Knuckles could reach areas Sonic couldn't (both because of their respective abilities and because of explicit differences in the level design). They could handle the same obstacles in different ways (Knuckles could glide over spikes, Sonic would have to jump from platform to platform, etc).

Which worked back then when it was 2D and on limited tech.

Again this has fuckall to do with anything.

Now we have many different styles in the game play,

Y'know, if you want a different style of gameplay, why don't you buy a different game? If you want a game about fighting dudes, go play God of War or DMC or whatever, series that are actually about that.

[Kuzu]

. And I mentioned about how I thought they were/ felt like reskins in sonic and knuckles because it's just sonic with one added skill.

This is like saying every character in street fighter is a reskin of Ryu, granted there are quite a few characters who play like him, but have their own properties and skills, and I don't see how this is a problem in the slightest. You're taking the base of one gameplay, and building on it, rather than creating an entirely new, unfitting gameplay style.

.

Which worked back then when it was 2D and on limited tech.

No, it worked because it was similar without being a carbon copy, and rather than being entirely different.

Now we have many different styles in the game play, Knuckles can now punch, we have Silver who has a completely different set of skills this series is known for, Amy has a hammer. They all have very different moves and skills that set them apart from Sonic's speed gameplay.

People play the series for SONIC GAMEPLAY, nobody wants to play a psudeo beat'em up, or a wannabe "Force Unleashed", in a game that's about going fast, it's stupid. It's like having FPS shooter segment in a Mario game.

Do I want them to play exactly like Sonic making him kindof moot ( in my opinion because he isn't the only one who can boost now if they go that route ) making everyone feel like a reskin and pointless seeing as if everyone is running and doing everything Sonic can do. Why am I not Sonic in those levels? NO.

Except they won't be doing the same thing Sonic can do, what part of every character having a different take on Sonic's gameplay is so fucking hard to understand.

You seem to be implying that new abilities and differentiation in basic parameters like jump height or running speed that serve to better warrant a character's existence means a completely different set of game mechanics altogether when this doesn't have to be the case at all.

...I never implied this, at all. I said I want to be identical to Sonic, while still having their own style, never did I say changing the mechanics equated to a completely different style of gameplay.

I don't want the characters to be Sonic retreads or in completely different genres. There's a middle ground on that scale that's far more appealing to me.

Except you think I'm suggesting just change the character model, and leave it as is. Nobody is asking for reskins, and don't know why people assume that when I ask for characters to play like a Sonic character. They should all have the same basis for the gameplay(i.e. Spin Dashing, Reasonably fast, etc. etc.), then they can have their own skills, but what's appropriate for the series.

[Remynaka]

So my ideas suck fine. But what does that mean for someone like Silver? Who isn't fast and was made to be completely different from anything sonic related, as far as move list go anyway? Does he lose his thing because running is the only way to do anything is this series? I'm not saying they turn sonic into FPS/whatever. And maybe I'm wrong, or looking at it the wrong way, but I LIKE the fact everyone doesn't play the same. Hell I would even say fine fuck it.. let them ALL run fast, but can Sonic keep his spindash/boost to himself? Does everyone NEED to spindash and boost like him to keep it within the same style? Cause that's what started this debate I think... me saying boosting and spindashing if everyone had it now would make them feel like clones to me.

So instead of going back and forth and ( me ) being made to look like the jackass stupid moron I'm making myself out to be. Tell me what could or would you do to make Silver fit, in more? I'm using Silver because his move list is far as I can tell is completely new to sonic style gameplay.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Vicki Turner

[Kuzu]

Silver is weird because his powers have never centered around movement, or going fast, In fact more often than not, he's portrayed as slow without his powers. I doubt it's impossible to use Silver, but there needs to be better applications for his powers that fit within the realm of the series, i.e. going fast, and using the environment to your advantage and NOT Stop and go third person action.

As for the second point, the boost and Spin Dash are primary gameplay elements for Sonic gameplay, basically it's not really Sonic gameplay if nobody spins, so everybody needs a spinning move to some extent. And everyone having a Spin Dash or a Spin attack doesn't make them a clone, it's like saying everybody Luigi is a clone of Mario despite the former playing vastly different.

[Nepenthe]

Except they won't be doing the same thing Sonic can do, what part of every character having a different take on Sonic's gameplay is so fucking hard to

To what extent would this differentiation be? Would we simply be doing this the classic way of adding one ability or two and being done with it or different stats and physical gimmicks like vehicles on top of it? And what of the level design to accommodate it? Some boring splits here and there or full-fledged levels dedicated specifically to getting real mileage out of the character's different abilities? This rabbit hole of nuance can go fairly deep without straying into genre roulette territory and I think that's where the real argument lies.

...I never implied this, at all. I said I want to be identical to Sonic, while still having their own style, never did I say changing the mechanics equated to a completely different style of gameplay.

You literally said nothing about the characters having their "own style" in the post I was responding to:

Can I just have the characters play identical to Sonic, and all have them have the same objective(i.e. Get from point A to point B?) I mean I know the characters AREN'T Sonic, but I'm pretty sure they need to share he basic game mechanics such as jumping, and a spin jump.

You said you wanted them to be "identical" and have the "same objective," qualifiers which leave little room for a unique "style," so the implication I pulled from that was that significant enough variation from Sonic's base gameplay would constitute a change of mechanics to you.

Except you think I'm suggesting just change the character model, and leave it as is. Nobody is asking for reskins, and don't know why people assume that when I ask for characters to play like a Sonic character. They should all have the same basis for the gameplay(i.e. Spin Dashing, Reasonably fast, etc. etc.), then they can have their own skills, but what's appropriate for the series.

That particular sentence wasn't aimed personally at you, therefore it's not suggesting what you said anymore than I'm suggesting anyone who wants more variation in gameplay than what the classic style offers wants genre roulette. I used both extremes to make a point that there is an existing middle option, something further away from the generic classic style of implementing other characters that I personally favor.

[Diogenes]

But what does that mean for someone like Silver? Who isn't fast and was made to be completely different from anything sonic related, as far as move list go anyway? Does he lose his thing because running is the only way to do anything is this series?

It means they need to put in some time thinking of how to translate his abilities into something that fits in with Sonic gameplay. For one thing, while he may be slow on his feet,

so they could give him a Super Sonic-esque hover animation once he gets above a jog, and if they wanted to give him the boost, that's a way to justify it. There's probably a way to work in his grabbing and throwing of enemies and objects, although the mechanics of it would need to be refined a lot from the slapdash grab-and-throw in '06. He can still have his little midair hover to give his jumps a little more distance.

... but can Sonic keep his spindash/boost to himself? Does everyone NEED to spindash and boost like him to keep it within the same style?

Well for one thing the spindash was never just Sonic's. Tails got it in the same game Sonic did, and several other characters have had it since. If you want Sonic to have a unique ability, you should probably look for something else. As far as everyone having the spindash, I think having some kind of speed-up move helps keep the game moving. Not everyone needs to have the spindash, but I think everyone should have something, and I see no reason some of them can't have the spindash.

[Remynaka]

Silver is weird because his powers have never centered around movement, or going fast, In fact more often than not, he's portrayed as slow without his powers. I doubt it's impossible to use Silver, but there needs to be better applications for his powers that fit within the realm of the series, i.e. going fast, and using the environment to your advantage and NOT Stop and go third person action.

As for the second point, the boost and Spin Dash are primary gameplay elements for Sonic gameplay, basically it's not really Sonic gameplay if nobody spins, so everybody needs a spinning move to some extent. And everyone having a Spin Dash or a Spin attack doesn't make them a clone, it's like saying everybody Luigi is a clone of Mario despite the former playing vastly different.

I have a question, now the game play you're talking about. Sounds like gameplay from the classics vs the modern one where people joke calling it boost to win. Silver IS odd but I think he'll work better in the new gameplay than classic play. What if he didn't so much as run, but float fast? Hear me out... he be kindof flying at a faster speed, while still being able to use his powers. But I'm stuck now cause if he just shoots then he feels like a low powered Super Shadow. This is why I'm a comic artist and NOT a sonic game designer....

[Semi-colon e]

(didn't Amy have a sort of running-in-place dash, like a spindash without the spin, in one of the Advances?).

[Multikaris]

For Jet, what if he got on his board at top speed? It would alter his top speed and jumping.

[SilentDoom]

So I've been toying with an idea for a little while for Shadow. Shadow I feel has untapped potential. In SA2 and Heroes, he was identical to Sonic and in Shadow and 06 he was unique but terrible. Here's what I propose:

1) Start with the classic Sonic gameplay and do small tweaks to his overall physics. Think like Knuckles in S3&K. Don't think about glide and wall climb for a sec and just focus on stuff like his lower jump. That one tweak meant that he couldn't reach certain routes, as a result making you take a different route and experiencing the level differently. In a well designed game, the small character tweaks can make quite a big difference. Here's what I feel would be fitting for Shadow:

-> A slower sense of acceleration, so he has a little trouble getting up to speed but a slightly higher speed cap and top speed than Sonic. I'd like the think of Shadow as "the hard mode" when you're playing levels. It seems to reflect quite well imo. The slower acceleration and harder time reaching top speed would mean you'd have to take more care retaining your momentum as best you can, but you consequently are rewarded slightly more

-> A slightly lower jump but the ability to float slightly at the apex of the jump and do a slight hover with his jet skates. I feel that's an element of his design they could play on more. Dude has rocket skates, but he just uses them as though they were regular roller blades.

2) Now here's the bulk of my idea. What if Shadow had Chaos Control powers that worked in a similar way to Viewtiful Joe's VFX skills? For example, you could activate Chaos Control to slow down the environment around you. However, not only would this slow down in the general sense, but would also trigger more interesting events. For instance, if you used Slow in Viewtiful Joe next to a flying platform, the fan at the bottom of the platform would slow down and the platform would drop. It could potentially introduce some really interesting platforming gimmicks. But that's not all. The Chaos Control powers could also even have slight effects on your inertia. Slowing down time could make you accelerate/decelerate slower for instance. How would this all be controlled? Via a meter of course. One that builds over time. Why over time? To allow for a little more flexibility.

This of course is just a start of a concept.

[Jack / Joker]

Being the rabid Batman fangirlboy that I am, I play a lot of Batman: Arkham Asylum/City. It's got me thinking, a similar system could work for Knuckles. The gliding mechanics, as well as the fast and ferocious attacks, could really work well! If Knuckles was only slightly less fast than Sonic, as well as having an ability to glide, adding the FreeFlow system would pretty much make him the best playable character in anything ever in my opinion.

[TheOcelot]

Being the rabid Batman fangirlboy that I am, I play a lot of Batman: Arkham Asylum/City. It's got me thinking, a similar system could work for Knuckles. The gliding mechanics, as well as the fast and ferocious attacks, could really work well! If Knuckles was only slightly less fast than Sonic, as well as having an ability to glide, adding the FreeFlow system would pretty much make him the best playable character in anything ever in my opinion.

Batman has the whole brooding personality, which is more Shadow than Knuckles.

Can you imagine Knuckles using combo's on enemies. One knuckle in the throat is all it would take, to make the bad guys drop like flies. Those knuckles are lethal. I hear Sonic still feels the effects of Knuckles right hook, after his surprise attack in Angel Island Zone, even today.

Edited October 11, 2012 by NightwingFox

[Kuzu]

Being the rabid Batman fangirlboy that I am, I play a lot of Batman: Arkham Asylum/City. It's got me thinking, a similar system could work for Knuckles. The gliding mechanics, as well as the fast and ferocious attacks, could really work well! If Knuckles was only slightly less fast than Sonic, as well as having an ability to glide, adding the FreeFlow system would pretty much make him the best playable character in anything ever in my opinion.

This sounds like it would break up the flow a lot, speeding through a stage, then stop to beat up a bunch of enemies. It sounds fun, but not something in a Sonic game. If you're going to focus on combat with Knuckles, it needs to be minimum and not intrude on the standard Sonic forumula. If anything given the main focus is movement instead of combat, I'd focus more on Knuckles exploitative skills.

[Jack / Joker]

Hmmm, I suppose it would break up the flow, since it'd be hard to, you know, stop.

This sort of thing makes playing as characters like Espio difficult to do. To make him feel different to Sonic, they'd probably have to utilize his apparent ninja skills. But how can they do that while incorporating GO FAST? Hmmm...

[Kuzu]

Hmmm, I suppose it would break up the flow, since it'd be hard to, you know, stop.

This sort of thing makes playing as characters like Espio difficult to do. To make him feel different to Sonic, they'd probably have to utilize his apparent ninja skills. But how can they do that while incorporating GO FAST? Hmmm...

He's also a chameleon mind you, meaning he can turn invisible, and stick to walls, and unlike Knuckles, it doesn't need to be a vertical surface.