[DELETED]

[Diogenes]

This sort of thing makes playing as characters like Espio difficult to do. To make him feel different to Sonic, they'd probably have to utilize his apparent ninja skills. But how can they do that while incorporating GO FAST? Hmmm...

Well the first thing to keep in mind is that it's not just about speed, but movement in general. Fast-paced movement usually, but not exclusively.

And ninja stuff can be used for movement. Espio's got wall climbing abilities and that grappling hook from Generations. Ninjas are generally portrayed as superhumanly agile in a way that is not entirely unlike Sonic, too.

As far as stealth, it doesn't need to be of the hide-and-wait variety. Design it around choosing the correct action out of several possibilities rather than waiting for the single opportunity to present itself. And getting caught shouldn't be an instant failure; have it have some short-term negative effect, like blocking off one route or spawning more enemies, which can be quickly resolved (take a different route, defeat or dodge the enemies) so the alarms can be reset and the next stealth obstacle started.

[Tani Coyote]

If not for the fact so many associate Sonic with speed and not a variety of gameplay styles, I'd push for an Adventure-esque system with each character having unique levels and play styles.

Sonic: Do I need to say what this would be?

Tails: If not for the rage it would cause I'd be in favor of puzzles akin to Portal or Klonoa. He's the bright one of the bunch, such should be his perogative.

Shadow: While he has speed, put those chaos powers to use. I want to make shish kebabs out of robots.

Knuckles: Combat, combat, combat. Hopefully not as bad as the Werehog stages in terms of length, but if swift enough could possibly be amusing.

I covered the top 4 didn't I? Okay then. I think that's all I can really think of. I'm not a game designer for a reason, nor a game marketer, likewise, for a reason.

If not for the fact flops tend to occur when they try it, I'd suggest spinoffs. But we've done that several times before. Such a shame, too, since I always liked the idea of a side series that follows Shadow and Rouge on their misadventures against a variety of new villains. While Sonic deals with the goofball who is spoiled with lots of metallic toys, Shadow and Rouge deal with the serious threats.

[Jack / Joker]

You know, I hate Shadow and Silver. But not only can I see their potential, I'd find them likable if it was actually tapped into, or rather given a chance to be. The only thing is that I doubt other people can just get over how bad they used to be. I'm not so sure since people still aren't over Sonic '06 even now that the franchise has found it's feet, so how could characters be any different? The only thing I would say is that they should never, ever steal the show from characters like Knuckles, Eggman, Tails and Sonic ever again. I'd personally rather see a likable Tails and Knuckles over a likable Shadow and Silver, but I guess that's just my blatant fanboyism.

...on the subject of Sonic in Colors, if you look back to SA1, SA2, even Heroes this is how they were trying to portray him, just failing quite badly. The only problem I have with this rendition of him is that he's only actually serious for two cutscenes or so. It's pretty irritating how he doesn't seem to give a shit about anything...

[Pawn]

...on the subject of Sonic in Colors, if you look back to SA1, SA2, even Heroes this is how they were trying to portray him, just failing quite badly. The only problem I have with this rendition of him is that he's only actually serious for two cutscenes or so. It's pretty irritating how he doesn't seem to give a shit about anything...

Considering the poor animation and dialogue, Sonic's actually portrayed pretty well in SA2. He's a bit straight-faced in SA1 though, and just plain annoying in Heroes. Colours is very polished and does well to show his bond with Tails, but the story doesn't allow Sonic to convey a wide range of emotions. I think a combination of the way SA2 and Colours conveyed him would be a good way to go.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Pawn

[Kuzu]

I went over this in the other topic, but yeah stories like Colors/Generations don't really give Sonic a lot to work with. He's cocky and always in control, so even if Eggman is a legit threat, Sonic or the story don't really treat him that way. Don't get me wrong, I love Sonic's arrogant ass attitude, but if that's the only facet to his personality, then he's kind of bland now isn't he? While it's incredibly hard to see due to the animation, and voice acting Sonic has a wide array of emotions beyond his normal cocky self in the Adventure games; Gets angry when he failed to catch Eggman in adventure, frustrated with Shadow's constant taunting against him, Eggman once again gets the jump on him, he's surprised and worried that Amy was captured, actually acknowledges he needs help from his peers. A problem with Sonic is how nonchalant he is about almost everything, like damn near nothing gets to him, it's like if Sonic doesn't give a fuck, why should the audience?

Edited October 12, 2012 by The Burning Blaziken

[Tani Coyote]

A problem with Sonic is how nonchalant he is about almost everything, like damn near nothing gets to him, it's like if Sonic doesn't give a fuck, why should the audience?

I kind of always liked that about him. He's very hard to get down, no matter how bad things look. I also think of it as a general manifestation of his immaturity: due to his rare losses, he thinks of everything as a game and so views war as a game rather than as, well, war.

Of course, he should be open to darker emotions when the time is appropriate (if someone like Tails was nearly killed I would like him to lose his cool). I think stuff like Darkspine Sonic (or Fleetway Supes, whichever of the various "bad mood" Sonics is good for you) is fine if not used too much.

Constant darkness and seriousness is more Shadow's gig, and I think that's a wonderful contrast of their personalities. Whereas Shadow's very pessimistic and prone to severe breaches of heroic conduct, Sonic rarely loses his resolve and always sees the brighter side of things.

Edited October 13, 2012 by TaniciusFox

[Kuzu]

I kind of always liked that about him. He's very hard to get down, no matter how bad things look. I also think of it as a general manifestation of his immaturity: due to his rare losses, he thinks of everything as a game and so views war as a game rather than as, well, war.

Of course, he should be open to darker emotions when the time is appropriate (if someone like Tails was nearly killed I would like him to lose his cool). I think stuff like Darkspine Sonic (or Fleetway Supes, whichever of the various "bad mood" Sonics is good for you) is fine if not used too much.

Constant darkness and seriousness is more Shadow's gig, and I think that's a wonderful contrast of their personalities. Whereas Shadow's very pessimistic and prone to severe breaches of heroic conduct, Sonic rarely loses his resolve and always sees the brighter side of things.

See, there's nothing wrong with Sonic being cocky and in control most of the time, but when it happens in scenes that are meant to be taken seriously, it kinda decreases the drama. For instance, when Sonic confronts the Time Eater, which up to this point has, ripped apart time, kidnapped Sonic's friends and petrified them, and just screwing everything up, Sonic's reaction? Threaten with an "embarrassing beatdown" and it just kills any drama that scene could have had. It's like if Sonic doesn't take the situation seriously, how can the audience?

Sonic is generally known to be a playful, laid-back guy right? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of how bad things are if he takes it seriously?

[Diogenes]

Being cocky and taking it seriously are not quite mutually exclusive.

[Kuzu]

Well cocky to the point of treating it like a game, than a serious threat. Like if it's the determined, defiant type of arrogance the that's cool, but if it's like the "I totally got this, this isn't even a challenge" type of attitude, then no. Take SA2 for instance, right before Eggman kick starts his plan to kill Sonic and steal the real emerald from Tails, Sonic makes a small quip on how Eggman has gotten "big time", but there's not a point where you feel he isn't serious about the situation.

Edited October 13, 2012 by The Burning Blaziken

[Tani Coyote]

Sonic confronts the Time Eater, which up to this point has, ripped apart time, kidnapped Sonic's friends and petrified them, and just screwing everything up, Sonic's reaction? Threaten with an "embarrassing beatdown" and it just kills any drama that scene could have had. It's like if Sonic doesn't take the situation seriously, how can the audience?

Sonic is generally known to be a playful, laid-back guy right? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of how bad things are if he takes it seriously?

He seems to have a very bizarre sense of when things turn bad, that's for sure.

He gets ticked when Shadow calls him names. But he laughs it off when there's a monster that can destroy time itself right in front of him. Talk about misplaced priorities.

Closest he seems to get to angry is "Not cool!" at the very start.

Take SA2 for instance, right before Eggman kick starts his plan to kill Sonic and steal the real emerald from Tails, Sonic makes a small quip on how Eggman has gotten "big time", but there's not a point where you feel he isn't serious about the situation.

Never mind he had factored in the possibility he might die, given his "final words" to Amy. It seems when faced with death he has that "passing on ghost" mentality; while there's some sadness in the words they aren't overly laced with them, and they try to tell those still surviving to look at the bright side of things.

Edited October 13, 2012 by TaniciusFox

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Being cocky and taking it seriously are not quite mutually exclusive.

They are as mutually exclusive as the way you develop them into the character. A character may have a dominant state of mind, but that doesn't mean they can't have other states as well.

[Remynaka]

This is me being as serious as I can be. Why is everyone so gun ho about nothing but speed? I've been thinking about it with Silver and Knuckles... and I can't see them working well with Sonic's gameplay style NOW. Sonic has things like boost, the spin dash which noone else has anymore. Silver is slow as shit, BUT the man can move shit with his mind, Knuckles punches things. I feel it in my soul there's award winning shit here, but it seems like I'm the only one willing to think outside the box. Again this is me simply asking, I REALLY want to know why nothing else seems to work in the modern style. Not talking about the old one cause Silver didn't exist then, Knuckles and tails were nothing but reskins, I'm talking about NOW with everyone having their OWN set skills.

What's REALLY wrong with them using them?

[Kuzu]

This is me being as serious as I can be. Why is everyone so gun ho about nothing but speed?

Nobody is focused on "Nothing but Speed" we're focused on making a game feel like a Sonic game, not fifty different games in one.

I've been thinking about it with Silver and Knuckles... and I can't see them working well with Sonic's gameplay style NOW.

This can be said about virtually everyone except maybe Shadow.

Sonic has things like boost, the spin dash which noone else has anymore.

Nobody but Sonic has been playable, so we can't say that for sure.

Silver is slow as shit, BUT the man can move shit with his mind,Knuckles punches things.

I don't play a Sonic game to move shit with my mind, nor do I play them to beat shit up, I play them to platform and move really fast.

I feel it in my soul there's award winning shit here, but it seems like I'm the only one willing to think outside the box.

You can think outside the box, without throwing in shit that just doesn't belong in the series.

Again this is me simply asking, I REALLY want to know why nothing else seems to work in the modern style.

Because it forces you to go forward and fast, and virtually prevents you from doing anything else with invisible walls and whatnot.

Not talking about the old one cause Silver didn't exist then, Knuckles and tails were nothing but reskins, I'm talking about NOW with everyone having their OWN set skills.

What's REALLY wrong with them using them?

Dude? Tails & Knuckles were NOT reskins in Sonic 3 & K, you know what a reskin is? It's a character that plays exactly like another, with little to no difference on gameplay, ya know like Sonic & Tails in Sonic 2? In Sonic 3 & Knuckles; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles each have abilities that completely change the style of gameplay; Sonic has an Instant Shield which allows him to destroy most spiked enemies, Tails can fly and reach heights the other two cannot, and Knuckles can glide and scale any vertical surface. In what the way does sound like a reskin? Do the characters really need to play completely different from each other to NOT be reskins? It's like you never bothered to play Sonic 3 & Knuckles

What you're talking about is just throwing in random abilities for a character just for the sake of "variety" and not considering if said abilities are a fit for the series. Why the hell would I want to play a cheap Force Unleashed clone, or a beat'em up, in a game where the main objective is getting to the end and avoiding obstacles? Do you not see the flaw in this argument, it's the reason nobody liked the Big stages in Sonic Adventure, it's the reason nobody likes playing Tails/Eggman or Knuckles/Rouge in Sonic Adventure 2, it's virtually the only reason anybody hates the Werehog, so why the hell do people insist on continuing with this trend of haphazardly throwing in styles of gameplay, that have been hated in the past, it's makes no damn sense.

[Diogenes]

Because giving every character their own special gameplay style means they're splitting their resources trying to create several games instead of focusing on making one. There's only so much time, money, and energy available for any particular game, so the more gameplay styles they have to make, the less each gets. This can cause any number of problems with the gameplay.

Also, when I buy a Sonic game, I want...a Sonic game. I am spending my money for a certain kind of gameplay. When you have multiple gameplay styles, obviously only a fraction of the game is Sonic. I don't want to pay 50-some dollars for $15 worth of the game I want and $35 of some other games I may or may not have any interest in. Even if the other gameplay is good, I'm not looking for just anything good when I go to pick up a Sonic game. And if I were looking for just anything good, I'd spend my money on any of the dozens of other great games that put their full focus into doing something right rather than taking a scattershot approach that weakens what it attempts to provide.

[Nepenthe]

In Sonic 3 & Knuckles; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles each have abilities that completely change the style of gameplay

Tails and Knuckles do not "completely change the style" of classic Sonic gameplay. They merely have abilities that allow them to take routes that others can't. That isn't some complete differentiation, it's slight variation, and considering how under-utilized multiple routes are in this series in terms of giving them context and purpose to the overall game beyond "Oh hey, I can go there" (sans ShtH of all games; imagine that), it's not even interesting or novel variation anymore, just the same ol' archaic bare minimum, and thus it doesn't serve to provide significant incentive in even bothering to select other characters.

We don't need genre roulette, but Jesus Christ, we can make things far more interesting than what's been done before.

[Kuzu]

Tails and Knuckles do not "completely change the style" of classic Sonic gameplay. They merely have abilities that allow them to take routes that others can't. That isn't some complete differentiation, it's slight variation, and considering how under-utilized multiple routes are in this series in terms of giving them context and purpose to the overall game beyond "Oh hey, I can go there" (sans ShtH of all games; imagine that), it's not even interesting or novel variation anymore, just the same ol' archaic bare minimum, and thus it doesn't serve to provide significant incentive in even bothering to select other characters.

We don't need genre roulette, but Jesus Christ, we can make things far more interesting than what's been done before.

What the other characters offer comes down to preference, but the fact is; Tails & Knuckles can do things Sonic cannot, and thus give you enough of an incentive to play as them, and if people never utilize that, how in what way is that the game's fault? The game's use of Alternate paths never had any special meaning beyond what you described them as, and they don't need to. I mean you can put different goodies to find, and secrets but I don't see why that requires completely changing the context of the gameplay to do so, that's more of a problem with the level design, than how the characters play.

[Remynaka]

Nobody is focused on "Nothing but Speed" we're focused on making a game feel like a Sonic game, not fifty different games in one.

This can be said about virtually everyone except maybe Shadow.

Nobody but Sonic has been playable, so we can't say that for sure.

I don't play a Sonic game to move shit with my mind, nor do I play them to beat shit up, I play them to platform and move really fast.

You can think outside the box, without throwing in shit that just doesn't belong in the series.

Because it forces you to go forward and fast, and virtually prevents you from doing anything else with invisible walls and whatnot.

Dude? Tails & Knuckles were NOT reskins in Sonic 3 & K, you know what a reskin is? It's a character that plays exactly like another, with little to no difference on gameplay, ya know like Sonic & Tails in Sonic 2? In Sonic 3 & Knuckles; Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles each have abilities that completely change the style of gameplay; Sonic has an Instant Shield which allows him to destroy most spiked enemies, Tails can fly and reach heights the other two cannot, and Knuckles can glide and scale any vertical surface. In what the way does sound like a reskin? Do the characters really need to play completely different from each other to NOT be reskins? It's like you never bothered to play Sonic 3 & Knuckles

What you're talking about is just throwing in random abilities for a character just for the sake of "variety" and not considering if said abilities are a fit for the series. Why the hell would I want to play a cheap Force Unleashed clone, or a beat'em up, in a game where the main objective is getting to the end and avoiding obstacles? Do you not see the flaw in this argument, it's the reason nobody liked the Big stages in Sonic Adventure, it's the reason nobody likes playing Tails/Eggman or Knuckles/Rouge in Sonic Adventure 2, it's virtually the only reason anybody hates the Werehog, so why the hell do people insist on continuing with this trend of haphazardly throwing in styles of gameplay, that have been hated in the past, it's makes no damn sense.

I have played Sonic 3 and sonic 3 full edition and yes Tails and Knuckles had like one move or so that made them not go 100% everywhere where sonic went. But in the end of the day, there wasn't MUCH difference in the characters at all. I'm saying there has to be away to keep them different from sonic 100% but still have it all fit. Never mind.. I quit, I'm not winning any fucking battles and I'm not going to change my opinion that having everyone just have a 90% copy and paste moveset from Sonic is boring to me now. Sega gave me a taste of what they could do with other styles and I LIKED it. It opened the cast up to people like Silver, And if that's so wrong than I RATHER be wrong then enjoy the same gameplay that is NEVER going to grow. THis is ALL my opinion so let me be wrong.

[Kuzu]

I have played Sonic 3 and sonic 3 full edition and yes Tails and Knuckles had like one move or so that made them not go 100% everywhere where sonic went. But in the end of the day, there wasn't MUCH difference in the characters at all. I'm saying there has to be away to keep them different from sonic 100% but still have it all fit.

Sonic is the base character, you either have them play similarly to him, or not anyone playable at all.

Never mind.. I quit, I'm not winning any fucking battles and I'm not going to change my opinion that having everyone just have a 90% copy and paste moveset from Sonic is boring to me now.

It's not about being boring or not, it's about doing what's in the context of the series; you're saying we should just add any style of gameplay we can find, just because one or two people liked playing the Treasure hunting stages? That's stupid, and it's blatant pandering.

Sega gave me a taste of what they could do with other styles and I LIKED it. It opened the cast up to people like Silver, And if that's so wrong than I RATHER be wrong then enjoy the same gameplay that is NEVER going to grow. THis is ALL my opinion so let me be wrong.

The only reason anyone is saying you're wrong because your reasoning makes no sense, if you want to play a beat'em up, what's stopping you from picking up a copy of God of War? When people buy a Sonic game, they expect to play a SONIC game, and not 10 different games in one, with only about 10th of it being like an actual Sonic game. Your reasoning doesn't even consider the fraction of people who DID NOT like playing those styles in the first place. Contrary to what you believe, Knuckles played damn fine in the 2D games, and I never saw anyone complaining how he's "A reskin of Sonic" and vastly preferred playing as him there, as opposed to spending about 10 minutes in a boxed space looking for jewels. If characters like SIlver can't fit, then it's Sonic Team's fault for not being able to create a gameplay style that accommodates his abilities within the context of the series, and creating an entirely new style unlike the series for him is NOT a solution, you're just adding unnecessary clutter.

Edited October 13, 2012 by The Burning Blaziken

[Nepenthe]

What the other characters offer comes down to preference, but the fact is; Tails & Knuckles can do things Sonic cannot, and thus give you enough of an incentive to play as them, and if people never utilize that, how in what way is that the game's fault?

It's as much the fault of the classic games for their utilization of alternate characters being boring to me as it is the modern games' fault for being boring to you and anyone else because they're too linear for you. I nor anyone else are responsible for aping engagement from something we don't inherently find engaging. Rather, being engaging to the audience is literally the only responsibility of a video game and we're fit to blame them for failing to live up to that responsibility as we see fit.

The game's use of Alternate paths never had any special meaning beyond what you described them as, and they don't need to. I mean you can put different goodies to find, and secrets but I don't see why that requires completely changing the context of the gameplay to do so, that's more of a problem with the level design, than how the characters play.

It doesn't require completely changing the context of the gameplay. It requires recognizing that the gameplay is not or should not be as restrictive as it's been made out to be all these years, that the only kind of variation we can have is Sonic with flight or climbing attached or else the game is "not Sonic" anymore, and allowing the gameplay some actual fucking breathing room to further give characters some identity on top of making use of more meaningful level design to cater directly to their abilities, which in turn ups the incentive to play as them without getting into completely different games and genres. As I said before, our only choices in the matter are not "S3&K style" and "Adventure style."

[Kuzu]

It's as much the fault of the classic games for their utilization of alternate characters being boring to me as it is the modern games' fault for being boring to you and anyone else because they're too linear for you. I nor anyone else are responsible for aping engagement from something we don't inherently find engaging. Rather, being engaging to the audience is literally the only responsibility of a video game and we're fit to blame them for failing to live up to that responsibility as we see fit.

Not without reason of course, you've seen us explain extensively why we feel the way we do about the Modern games. I'm not saying you're wrong for feeling the way you do, but rather I'm trying to understand how Sonic 3 & K's utilization of the characters can be seen as anymore boring than what the Adventure series did with them, or how can you make a game play the way you want it, without it not being a Sonic game anymore.

It doesn't require completely changing the context of the gameplay. It requires recognizing that the gameplay is not or should not be as restrictive as it's been made out to be all these years, that the only kind of variation we can have is Sonic with flight or climbing attached or else the game is "not Sonic" anymore, and allowing the gameplay some actual fucking breathing room to further give characters some identity on top of making use of more meaningful level design to cater directly to their abilities, which in turn ups the incentive to play as them without getting into completely different games and genres. As I said before, our only choices in the matter are not "S3&K style" and "Adventure style."

Some of these character's abilities aren't fit for the series in the first place, and what you're asking has essentially been done in the Adventure games. Levels were created that accommodated the character's abilities, Tails` mech, Knuckles ` treasure hunting, Silver's psychokinesis, and even Shadow's use of guns and vehicles. Even the Werehog had such a style, and I'll admit the Werehog was pretty damn good, but it's not what I(or most people) want out of a Sonic game. You can easily give characters identifiable abilities, without completely changing the objective and feel of the game, something I think the 2D games handle pretty well as opposed to the 3D ones. There's but so much you can change about the gameplay before it's not that gameplay anymore, and becomes something else entirely.

[Nepenthe]

Late response, but today's been a crazy day, so let's see if I can reform my thoughts.

Not without reason of course, you've seen us explain extensively why we feel the way we do about the Modern games.I'm not saying you're wrong for feeling the way you do, but rather I'm trying to understand how Sonic 3 & K's utilization of the characters can be seen as anymore boring than what the Adventure series did with them, or how can you make a game play the way you want it, without it not being a Sonic game anymore.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Nepenthe

[LATER BUDDY]

You know to make things a bit more interesting, I wonder if you concentrated the different characters at a specific variable to your score at the end. I mean you're usually scored on time, rings, and points right? (using the classic trio just as an example) What if Sonic had a large emphasis on time (running duh), say Tails had an emphasis on ring collection (exploration), and Knuckles had his on points (combos and destroying shit)? I mean they'd all still be able to gather all three of them just like normal game play, but the each type of gameplays would focus more or less on these things. As a result they're all still sorta balanced if the totaling system at the end of each Act is fair across the board. Maybe that'd help make each game play type still not a "genre mash up" but still more interesting than just "well Knuckles is basically Sonic with climbing and pawnchez"

I mean you already do those things with those characters, but the level design could be focused more that way instead of just "lol branching paths" or something

[Diogenes]

More specifically, Tails and Knuckles don't have their own level designs that are actually specialized for their flight and climbing abilities, but rather divergent paths in levels made for Sonic which can allow you to just fly or glide right over the meaty stuff. The rewards for bothering to take these divergent paths are also paltry and as such don't encourage exploration: rings, lives, the same background tiles I've seen on the main path? This isn't interesting. This doesn't peak my interest to go higher or lower. It makes me feel as if the levels are just unnecessarily big and could be parsed down without infringing on the experience.

[Nepenthe]

I still don't really get this. Is the gameplay itself not a reward?

Edited October 14, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Tani Coyote]

I pray if we ever do have some more mechs, they are indeed relatively fast and not the obnoxious stuff like the Gaia Colossus.

I didn't mind the Tornado stages in Unleashed at all. Once you got the keys down it was fairly straightforward. So I think you can have alternative modes of play without them DEVOURING the game.

Of course, as an SA2 fan, I don't mind either way. But alternative play is certainly acceptable; tons of popular videogames have one primary form of play mixed with side play. Crash Bandicoot has his airplane and racing stages, Jak has his racing and puzzle stages, Ratchet has puzzles and races and races as well. The list goes on.

Racing stages in a Sonic game would be fairly straightforward and make perfect sense. As for what kinds of puzzles... well. I assume that his little fox buddy can be used for those parts.