Jump to content
Wolfy

Character Speculation/Revival/What-if/etc Thread

Recommended Posts

hmm... suddenly.. reading the Tails Topic..

i got realize that Sonic on his latests 2 games; Lost World and Rise of Lyric (though both are not related each other) Sonic's impulsive attitude has caused problems and its responsable for the main plots

 

in SLW

Sonic kicks the Cacaphonic Conch and that causes trouble..

he even gets realize that its all because of his fault.. he did not listen to Tails (he did twice in the same game actually)

causing the death of his friends and his world for a while and the capture of his best friend;Tails...

 

and in RoL

Sonic wakes up Lyric...by accident.. though he was warned to not open the door to Lyric's prision...

(well maybe i'm blaming Sonic for trying to save his friends.. but anyway... the official story tells it in that way :P )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm kinda open to the idea of a spin off game featuring just Sonic's friends and the things that happen while Sonic is off on his lone adventures.  A bit of a "slice of life" plot mixed in with maybe a new villain that attacks when Sonic is away?  Just an idea I've been thinking about for a few weeks now.  Think Sonic Universe in game form but not based on the Archie-verse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm kinda open to the idea of a spin off game featuring just Sonic's friends and the things that happen while Sonic is off on his lone adventures.  A bit of a "slice of life" plot mixed in with maybe a new villain that attacks when Sonic is away?  Just an idea I've been thinking about for a few weeks now.  Think Sonic Universe in game form but not based on the Archie-verse.

I actually like the sound of this idea a lot - I wouldn't like it to be a major game, of course, but a nice little side project that has kind of an Adventure style go around with the genre roulette and whatnot. I would love that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually like the sound of this idea a lot - I wouldn't like it to be a major game, of course, but a nice little side project that has kind of an Adventure style go around with the genre roulette and whatnot. I would love that.

 

That's sort of what I was thinking.  Don't publish it as THE anniversary title or anything too important, but maybe at the same time as the main Sonic game at half the price (or bundled free) or somewhere in the middle of the year.  

 

As for the type of game, it's kind of up in the air.  Adventure style would be cool but the bigger the roster, the harder it might be to come up with so many play styles.  Though, I do like the idea of these characters feeling distinct.

Amy: Can use her hammer to vault over obstacles and reach alternative paths or attack enemies.

Knuckles/Rouge: It might be hard to distinguish these two since they've shared the same motif for 13 years now.  If anyone has got any ideas, that'd be cool. 

Tails/Cream:  These two I think I would tweak the flying mechanics to make them different.  Tails could flying higher and longer but not has fast as Cream who can fly faster but for not as long.  One would be more vertical oriented while the other is more about covering horizontal distance in the air. 

Big:  I was thinking for Big that he could use his huge body to his advantage.  Maybe when Big catches a downward slope or finds enough speed, the momentum he's carrying can plow through enemies and obstacles.  His level design and playthrough would be more heavily focused on using the terrain as an asset while also as an obstacle with upward slopes.

That's all I can think of for now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

That's sort of what I was thinking.  Don't publish it as THE anniversary title or anything too important, but maybe at the same time as the main Sonic game at half the price (or bundled free) or somewhere in the middle of the year.  

 

As for the type of game, it's kind of up in the air.  Adventure style would be cool but the bigger the roster, the harder it might be to come up with so many play styles.  Though, I do like the idea of these characters feeling distinct.

Amy: Can use her hammer to vault over obstacles and reach alternative paths or attack enemies.

Knuckles/Rouge: It might be hard to distinguish these two since they've shared the same motif for 13 years now.  If anyone has got any ideas, that'd be cool. 

Tails/Cream:  These two I think I would tweak the flying mechanics to make them different.  Tails could flying higher and longer but not has fast as Cream who can fly faster but for not as long.  One would be more vertical oriented while the other is more about covering horizontal distance in the air. 

Big:  I was thinking for Big that he could use his huge body to his advantage.  Maybe when Big catches a downward slope or finds enough speed, the momentum he's carrying can plow through enemies and obstacles.  His level design and playthrough would be more heavily focused on using the terrain as an asset while also as an obstacle with upward slopes.

That's all I can think of for now.

Because of who and what Tails is supposed to be, he has to be the fastest flyer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technically, Charmy is the fastest flyer, it's specified in some of his bios I think.

I don't think there's a standard for Tails' flying speed, just that he should go pretty fast on the ground with the aid of his tails. 

Charmy was stated to be the fastest insect in the world, not the fastest flyer overall. 

Tails' flying is supposed to be fast enough to keep up with Sonic, so this puts Tails as the fastest flyer overall. Flying through the air is what allows him to catch up again when Sonic runs far ahead on the ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technically they are all fast enough to keep up with Sonic (though arguably not a 1 to 1 speed match) and this isn't just a character trait of Tails. Sonic Advance 2 which was the last and only game you could play as Tails and Cream separately in the classic sonic style game both ran at roughly the same speed, with Sonic still mechanically faster but everyone else not too far behind. The only difference between the two was the flying speed and length which is reflected in the example I gave.  In the grand scheme of things, both characters run fast and do Sonic things.

Edited by Taokaka
Fleshed out my argument and added some missing words.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amy: Can use her hammer to vault over obstacles and reach alternative paths or attack enemies.

Knuckles/Rouge: It might be hard to distinguish these two since they've shared the same motif for 13 years now.  If anyone has got any ideas, that'd be cool. 

Tails/Cream:  These two I think I would tweak the flying mechanics to make them different.  Tails could flying higher and longer but not has fast as Cream who can fly faster but for not as long.  One would be more vertical oriented while the other is more about covering horizontal distance in the air. 

Big:  I was thinking for Big that he could use his huge body to his advantage.  Maybe when Big catches a downward slope or finds enough speed, the momentum he's carrying can plow through enemies and obstacles.  His level design and playthrough would be more heavily focused on using the terrain as an asset while also as an obstacle with upward slopes.

That's all I can think of for now.

Yeah, actually I do have some ideas. Really, and I've said this before actually, just use their character traits.

 

For Knuckles, I'd been thinking something of a general beat-em-up action-adventure/exploration gameplay style on a generally linear path. Not linear so much in the recent Sonic "boost to win" roads as much as you have with stuff like Ratchet and Clank, Banjo-Kazooie or any games like that.

  • With his comfortable movement-speed, immense strength, gliding abilities and wall-scaling abilities, that opens up a huge, huge batch of fun. I'd recommend dropping the treasure hunting thing all together though and save it for a multiplayer challenge mode or something.
  • Just give a gorgeous landscape each level and let him traverse then insides and out of Angel Island and its surrounding territories. Waterfalls, frozen tundras, green plains, majestic ruins, etc. upon etc. upon etc. Angel Island is freaking massive and we've only been treated to a fraction of a fraction of its content. Bring back Tikal and let her be sort of a guide for you as you do your thing as the guardian of the Mater Emerald and learn more about your heritage and the history of the world while all around just exploring your home and maybe deviating away from the island a couple times for the heck of it. Heck, throw in some time travel even idk. There's so much you can do with Angel Island.

 

With Rouge, rather than have her just be a female swap out for Knuckles, drop that entirely and just go for her own thing. I honestly think sticking to the Knuckles parallel thing is seriously holding back her potential. She's an agent for G.U.N! Hand her the stealth, infiltration sort of stages.

  • One of things that comes to mind is the treasure scope from SA2. That whole image alone to me the idea of using gadgets and such in tandem. Give her the ability to fly, not just glide. She's a bat after all. Keep her wall-crawling and and such because I feel it'd be a shame to just take them away. Let her use gear to see through walls. Kinda like Arkham. The sneak take-downs, stealth based gameplay and occasional close-room brawls when you get yourself into a sticky situation. Moving on from that though, allow her to use these various gadgets like SEGA's been kinda pinning on her in the occasional handheld and what not to aid her in her missions or thefts.
  • Let her be the one who changes attire depending on the stage or mission-type. It gives a sort of fun dynamic to the character especially given her personality. For high combat risk stages, give her the armored type she had in Sonic Heroes. For the average mission, leave her traditional outfit. So on and so forth.

 

With Tails, I'd drop him in an open world with access to his inventions and such.

  • The freedom to zoom around in a landbased vehicle and hop out eve at top speed propelling him through the air just to start spinning his tails and take advantage of the momentum to traverse the skies. Calling in one of his various Tornado incarnations in order to soar through the skies, or even have an all-rounder vehicle taking inspiration from SEGA Racing Transformed.
  • All this in order to achieve different goals and things that Tails needs to get done. The option to create and actually pilot ones own vehicle might be fun too, or at least the option to select multiple existing creations introduced in previous games. Imagine piloting the Cyclone through the sky just to transform and send skidding to the ground laying waste to Eggman's robots in Walker mode, all with the freedom and option to exit the vehicles and operate on foot at any time, of course with the ability to call said vehicles to you so as to not have to waste time running back to them when you want to take off again.

 

Cream's at first a bit more of a challenging character to pin with an individual gameplay style that a.) is fun and b.) make sense for her character.

  • I mean you know she generally hangs out with her mom and cheese. Aside from that, she doesn't really do much. She's obviously been in the Advance titles and Heroes, but she was there as a character that played the exact same as everyone else bc everyone else at the base level just ranfast and spun (except Amy). In a game like this where individual characters are actually being emphasized for once since the adventure titles, having everyone just beng a different boost to win character skin is kindof missing the point.
  • Getting down to it, I actually think that having her be a route through which to bring back the "chao rescue" motif in a new and refreshing kinda way that's not tedious because you're Sonic and wasting time tiptoeing around balconies and crap would be a good way to run. Her and cheese would take to random areas, maybe with help from tails seeing as he has a plane, in order to rescue and essentially save Cheese's...brethren? The more you rescue, the more free chao eggs you get int he Chao Garden shop so to speak. Essentially there would be a few dynamics that these stages would have that would positively benefit your life in the Chao Garden, which of course all characters would be able to visit.

 

I don't have anything to add to your description for Big haha. Though, I would have him as a feature in the game in some essence, though not specifically as a mainstay like we had in SADX. I think having him as an optional help partner for Cream in her levels would be kind of a cute and interesting way to have it. Her bouncing off his umbrella or his tummy or him using his fishing hook to grapple certain objects or help her in different ways. Peaceful, relaxing and adorable music and aesthetic would clearly have to be a staple and synonymous with Cream, Cheese and Big's levels.

 

As far as base gameplay, Shadow I think actually had the right idea in his own game. I'd take out the vehicles and guns though and just replace it with his arsenal of chaos abilities. That was a pretty interesting and fun dynamic of his character that hasn't really been seen since Sonic Battle. 06 kinda touched on it, but I think it came out pretty seriously weak. Nothing more than that, though. Perhaps the main staple of his character is that he's the main rival to Sonic after all.

I've already gone into length on Blaze in the OP here.

Blaze the Cat's 3D Gameplay (specific to individual Adventure style storylines and the like)

 

If Blaze were to be properly featured in a Next Gen Game, I'd like her gameplay to be somewhat parkour-centric with a slight focus on speed. Everyone is essentially lumped into one carbon copy gameplay mechanic more often than not latley, but I stick to the Adventure series and the like's method of defining how those individual characters actually play. I like a bit of variety in Sonic gameplay as long as it isn't something as painfully against the grain as Big's fishing levels were. SA2 had a pretty great sense of innovation as far as really fleshing out and establishing diverse characters while still maintaining the fun. The only setback I saw out of that was in the mech levels, but I think that was mostly because of the gaming in and of itself in addition to the fact that people wanted to play as Tails himself rather than the fact that mechs in general were being used.

 

Getting back to Blaze, I think the material for helping defining her as a character even capable of holding her own game is already there. SEGA I think does a pretty great job at setting in stone, even at the base level, what these characters are capable of and what they do even if we don't see it brought to life as much in the actual gameplay. in the opening of Silver's 06, we see Silver shoot off in a green comet. Afterwards, we don't see Blaze jump up and follow Human Torch style. We see her bound from building top to building top and she's soon out of sight. Looking back at it, I thought that was a very charming touch and it only reinforces the ideas surrounding her signature gameplay that I already have. I'd like to see Blaze with a reasonably quick play speed, but a fairly grand and wide open level at least as far as aesthetics go. When playing other games, styles and features that stand out to me in this right are those of Mirror's Edge and Infamous: Second Son.

 

As far as Mirror's Edge goes, the entire aesthetic and appeal of that game is one that I would attribute almost directly to Blaze character at least as far as a game or gameplay would go. The slightly abstract appeal, the strong-yet-gentle soundtrack, the level setup...it all goes to enhance the depth of that specific character. As far as the latter of these two inspirations goes, I think the appeal is a bit more obvious (if not understandable) in the use of the elements to further oneself in the levels particularly and perhaps primarily in the use of fire. As agile and platform-able as Blaze is, her primary and chief feature are her flames. Those same flames that caused her so much grief in her childhood are actually her greatest feature in this right. Her potential and abilities with this part of her character I think have been largely underdeveloped and underused. The flame boost is cool, but is that really all there is? Understandably, the gameplay style didn't really help facilitate any incorporation further than that, but I think that's a problem. Outside of Rush and its affiliates, I think that part of her character should be taken advantage of. Meld together the capabilities and mechanic of Second Son with the level-run style of Mirror's Edge's psuedo-open world layout and I think you'd have a good idea of the gameplay style I'm talking about.

 

If it's still a bit unclear, then to put it in the most crude and unrefined manner: take the kid from Second Son and stick him in Mirror's Edge or rather, take the the game Second Son and trade the level layouts out for Mirror's Edge's. I assume it would work the same as if I just said "Have a 3rd person perspecive Faith play 80% like Deslin (Second Son Main Character) 20% like herself and 60% faster. Bundle all of that up and soak it for a week in good old Sonic style gameplay and you've got the general gist.

 

There are ways to really capitalize on her extreme speed and individual character traits and make her really stand out on her own without deviating ridiculously far from the "female Sonic" dynamic, of course if that's still a concern, even if the only way to define that is "playing like Sonic".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like some of these ideas Guild.  Though some elements like keeping Knuckles confined to Angel Island would have to also make sense plot wise which I guess wouldn't be too hard as it could either be attacked (again) or infiltrated and it'd be up to Knuckles to defend Angel Island.  No matter, a beat-em style could work for Knuckles and giving him a wide satisfying move pool like the Werehog (360 version except less monotonous) would help keep it from getting stale.  Same with Rouge too if we're also giving her a beat em style game play, however you could integrate her spy gadgets into the move pool as well.  The stealth aspect also seems interesting and something that would fit Rouge perfectly.

Tails might be a tricky one because ideally you'd want him to rely on his natural abilities just as much as his mechanical ones so a balance needs to be set.  In a large open hub world it wouldn't be much of an issue especially if the hub world has tons of things to do inside of it with lots of places to traverse.  In an actual level though, I'd separate the Tornado from the mech by having a mix of flying missions using the Tornado and ground based ones with the mech being a reward like say collecting 50 rings.  The mech would have a life bar and if that bar is depleted, you'd be back to regular Tails.  

I like the idea of Cream a lot as it gives her story mode a meta purpose in the form of a chao garden.  For Creams levels, I'd have them be semi linear with branching paths that have most chao you collect along the way while special chao are in these optional paths.  Maybe like you said, Big the Cat could help her reach some of these branching paths within the level?  As for her moves, I'd still appreciate it if she kept her ability to fly and jump into a ball to smash enemies with Cheese being a special attack with a recharging meter?

Since this is a game without Sonic in it, I feel Shadow could fill that role and have him play close to his Adventure 2 incarnation.  Same with Amy and her hammer vault tricks and Blaze with her fiery speed.  Though personally, I'd like to have all characters run somewhat fast with some faster than others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like some of these ideas Guild.  Though some elements like keeping Knuckles confined to Angel Island would have to also make sense plot wise which I guess wouldn't be too hard as it could either be attacked (again) or infiltrated and it'd be up to Knuckles to defend Angel Island.

I assume here that what you were talking about was a reason to be focusing on Knuckles as far as the overall direction of the game goes? I thought this was just an individual character focus thing though? If not, and there actually is an overarching story, then personally I was thinking of him in the same way that I was thinking of Cream's. Just kinda doing their own thing a bit separate from everyone else since that's just kind of their own lifestyle.

If there isn't an overall story, and you were just talking about a reason for Knuckles to be doing anything other than sitting on the Master Emerald, then it's all just in this point here that I'll kinda rearrange and restate:

  • As you do your thing as the guardian of the Mater Emerald, maybe bring back Tikal and let her be sort of a guide for you and learn more about your heritage and the history of the world while all around just exploring your home and maybe deviating away from the island a couple times for the heck of it. I say this because we already know that the mystic ruins surrounding Angel Island have a lot to do with the Island and Echidna/Emerald/Chaos history AND that it has tundras and deserts and such through certain special zones and passages that make no sense given the geography. Imagine what they could throw into Angel Island itself! Just give a gorgeous landscape each level as he traverses the various areas of Angel Island and its surrounding territories. Waterfalls, frozen tundras, green plains, majestic ruins, etc. upon etc. upon etc. Angel Island is freaking massive and we've only been treated to a fraction of a fraction of its content.  Heck, throw in some time travel even idk. There's so much you can do with Angel Island.

Let me know if it's still a bit unclear.

 

Tails might be a tricky one because ideally you'd want him to rely on his natural abilities just as much as his mechanical ones so a balance needs to be set.  In a large open hub world it wouldn't be much of an issue especially if the hub world has tons of things to do inside of it with lots of places to traverse.  In an actual level though, I'd separate the Tornado from the mech by having a mix of flying missions using the Tornado and ground based ones with the mech being a reward like say collecting 50 rings.  The mech would have a life bar and if that bar is depleted, you'd be back to regular Tails.  

Yeah, he's to have equal access to his physical abilities and said inventions with no bar on when he can call each save for special situations in which he has no choice but to rely on his own physical abilities. Open World, but in combination with certain areas that are more "level-based". Open World with sections I guess.

I like the idea of Cream a lot as it gives her story mode a meta purpose in the form of a chao garden.  For Creams levels, I'd have them be semi linear with branching paths that have most chao you collect along the way while special chao are in these optional paths.  Maybe like you said, Big the Cat could help her reach some of these branching paths within the level?  As for her moves, I'd still appreciate it if she kept her ability to fly and jump into a ball to smash enemies with Cheese being a special attack with a recharging meter?

I'd say that rather than have a recharging meter, she can use cheese indiscriminately like in the past, especially in Advance 3. Maybe even have Cheese as a method to find the Chao easier. I wouldn't put too many enemies in her levels, but I would drop some. Eggman locating the Chao in some levels and deploying some drones to go get them, resulting in Cream and Cheese having to obviously intervene and rescue.

Since this is a game without Sonic in it, I feel Shadow could fill that role and have him play close to his Adventure 2 incarnation.  Same with Amy and her hammer vault tricks and Blaze with her fiery speed.  Though personally, I'd like to have all characters run somewhat fast with some faster than others.

Yep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so I had an idea.

We all know Sega struggles to find ways to use the other characters in the series without them diverging into different gameplay styles. Sega's even acknowledged this, and their answer to it is a pretty reasonable one: you now mostly only play as Sonic (or characters who relatively fit his gameplay, like Tails, Knuckles, Blaze, etc). Which I think is mostly fine, since that's what you're coming for in the first place.

But it does leave a lot to be desired. Other characters aren't playable, so their presence is a lot smaller. How do we fix it where we have the Sonic games more streamlined for Sonic's standard gameplay, and still give attention to minor characters?

Simple. We make spin off games dedicated to other characters, preferably on handhelds.

Now on one hand you may be thinking "but how could you do that in a way that works?". Well, let's think about it.. Sonic Team really wants to take Sonic in new directions with different gameplay styles that benefit the characteristics of these other characters, right? We've known this is the case for ages; as it's the very foundation of a lot of the games that came out from the Adventure era and onward. 

So.... let's stretch our imaginations a little bit.

Imagine an action-adventure-treasure hunting-beatemup game told from the perspective of both Knuckles and Rouge (which are different ends to the story), where it opens up some insight on Angel Island's mythos as well as Rouge's background, and maybe their odd relationship with one another.

Imagine an over-the-top detective game about the Chaotix, with off beat humor and gameplay that feels like a combination of ideas from Professor Layton and Pheonix Wright. They go on these really harebrained cases, interviewing all sorts of people (including most of the entire Sonic cast) and sleuthing their way to finding answers to things that may have never been cases to begin with. Or maybe there IS a big one, and they don't know what they're getting into yet..

Heck, if you REALLY want to pull on those imagination muscles, imagine a MOTHER-esque RPG / Chao Garden minigame fusion where you play as Cream & Cheese, and you are travelling with Vanilla and Professor Pickle on a grand adventure to find sacred Chao Garden temples and raise Chao you meet along the way (which you would use to fight against Eggman's Artifical Chaos army, which would be revealed as the story unravels).

These type of games would not only give time for these minor characters to shine, but also give Sonic Team the ability to build lore and new locations to Sonic's world, as WELL as let them scratch that itch of making games in different gameplay styles. And all that could be done while the main branch delivers the next main Sonic title.

And I wouldn't complain a bit.

Edited by Azoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just can't see many people buying games like those. I'd imagine most people outside the diehard Sonic fanbase don't know about, don't care about, or actively dislike most of the series' extended cast, alongside people in the fanbase that don't like them. Even if they managed to make good games, how many people are going to want to run out and buy a spinoff of a disgraced series starring one of its third-tier characters?

And if by some miracle the games did succeed, wouldn't we just be flooded with people begging for more *insert character* games? It's risking more divisions in an already shattered fanbase.

Personally I think trying to make nearabout every character playable was a mistake. There's no shame in a character being an NPC. Have the Chaotix give out missions, have Big make cameos again, have someone set up a shop, whatever. They'd have more luck building up these characters' reputations in small doses than expecting them to take off all at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just can't see many people buying games like those. I'd imagine most people outside the diehard Sonic fanbase don't know about, don't care about, or actively dislike most of the series' extended cast, alongside people in the fanbase that don't like them. Even if they managed to make good games, how many people are going to want to run out and buy a spinoff of a disgraced series starring one of its third-tier characters?

This is why the games would have to be made good enough on their own merits to interest new crowds into playing them. You get your diehard fans, you get your fans who were just outside of it all but were sort of interested in a few of these guys, and you reel in the people who would naysay these characters with good writing and game design set into their own projects (instead of split between it and 3 or so other gameplay styles) and prove those guys wrong. 

To say "oh we were wrong, they sucked" and push them in the background is the worse decision. But then again, pushing them into the series' face with as much emphasis as they used to get was the wrong decision, too. So I searched for a middle ground and found it.

And if by some miracle the games did succeed, wouldn't we just be flooded with people begging for more *insert character* games? It's risking more divisions in an already shattered fanbase.

If the main series got it's head together and started being consistent with how it delivers itself, I don't think it'd be a problem at all. 

And even if they wanted more of whatever, who cares? Sega could just do with that side thing whatever benefits the big picture. It's not like it'd hurt or divide the fanbase even further anyways. There are some Mario fans that like the RPGs, Karts or Partys more than the main games, some Kirby fans who like Air Ride, Epic Yarn or Canvas Curse more than the main games, Zelda fans who liked Four Swords or Hyrule Warriors more, Halo fans who liked Wars more, whatever. So what? It's not like it'd be interfering.

The only reason variety hurt Sonic is because there was no identity to hold it all together. Sonic was just whatever at any given time, unlike the previously mentioned series'. If that was fixed, this would be a non-issue.

Personally I think trying to make nearabout every character playable was a mistake. There's no shame in a character being an NPC. Have the Chaotix give out missions, have Big make cameos again, have someone set up a shop, whatever. They'd have more luck building up these characters' reputations in small doses than expecting them to take off all at once.

And of course I don't mind this direction being taken over my proposed one, either. I was just trying to think up ways to flesh out these characters and give them more to their personalities than just being extensions of whatever suits the game.

Edited by Azoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think trying to make nearabout every character playable was a mistake. There's no shame in a character being an NPC. Have the Chaotix give out missions, have Big make cameos again, have someone set up a shop, whatever. They'd have more luck building up these characters' reputations in small doses than expecting them to take off all at once.

That's fine for characters like Big, Cream, Rouge, the Chaotix, or even Amy and Tails; characters who aren't necessarily characterized as fighters and/or have skills that can be useful even from the sidelines. Tails is a genius mechanic and an ace pilot, he can build gadgets for Sonic and fly him around; Rouge is a spy, the Chaotix are detectives, people who can gather information on Sonic's behalf. Those guys can work on the sidelines, but what about characters like Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, or Blaze; characters who are basically superheroes in their own right, who's skills, roles, and even personalities revolve around being front-line fighters?

Knuckles for example is super strong, a skilled martial artist, a proud and independent warrior, the guardian of the most powerful thing on Earth, and someone who has been shown to enjoy a good fight. Knuckles' entire role on the team revolves around his fighting abilities, and not only does he have little to offer on the sidelines (he can't even give anthropology lessons anymore since the games are never set on Earth and his IQ has been slashed down to nothing), it's also completely out of character for him to be there. Same with the other characters, they don't have any way of being useful outside of battle and their roles and/or personalities mean that it makes no sense for them to be elsewhere. Relegating them to the position of side characters is like making an Avengers movie where only Tony Stark ever does anything and the rest of the team just sits on the Helicarrier and watches him. It's a waste of cool and interesting characters, it makes no sense, it's a betrayal of the characters, and on top of that it's a lot less exciting than it would be if everyone got in on the action.

Edited by Bowbowis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is why the games would have to be made good enough on their own merits to interest new crowds into playing them. You get your diehard fans, you get your fans who were just outside of it all but were sort of interested in a few of these guys, and you reel in the people who would naysay these characters with good writing and game design set into their own projects (instead of split between it and 3 or so other gameplay styles) and prove those guys wrong. 

I still don't think that would amount to a whole hell of a lot. It feels like it'd be a huge uphill battle just to break even.

To say "oh we were wrong, they sucked" and push them in the background is the worse decision.

Eh. It wouldn't be good to do it every time a character sucked, but there's nothing wrong with retiring a character that just isn't working.

If the main series got it's head together and started being consistent with how it delivers itself, I don't think it'd be a problem at all. 

Yeah, but that's the world's biggest "if" right now. I probably would be more amenable to experiments like this if the series wasn't constantly shitting itself, but these kinds of risks aren't what the series needs here and now.

 

 

That's fine for characters like Big, Cream, Rouge, the Chaotix, or even Amy and Tails; characters who aren't necessarily characterized as fighters and/or have skills that can be useful even from the sidelines. Tails is a genius mechanic and an ace pilot, he can build gadgets for Sonic and fly him around; Rouge is a spy, the Chaotix are detectives, people who can gather information on Sonic's behalf. Those guys can work on the sidelines, but what about characters like Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, or Blaze; characters who are basically superheroes in their own right, who's skills, roles, and even personalities revolve around being front-line fighters?

Well first off keep in mind that my argument isn't "literally no one but Sonic ever"; I'm fine with having games where a couple of other characters have major/playable roles, but they should be focused and not just throwing in as much as they can.

As for specifics, Silver and Blaze are far enough away from things that I wouldn't expect them to show up at all without specific reason; it wouldn't make sense to have them jump through space and time just because Eggman's up to something again. Knuckles and Shadow both have plausible reasons for not showing up every time (guarding the island and GUN duties, respectively), so they could be shelved until a game is made where they're specifically relevant. If they wanted to include them in minor roles, treasure hunting/GUN duties (again respectively) are enough to get them out in the world for Sonic to interact with, without tying them to the main story such that they can't bow out when the plot kicks in.

Same with the other characters, they don't have any way of being useful outside of battle

Sounds like a bunch of shit characters. They'd be better served by giving them other interests rather than continuing to mindlessly throw them into battle and treating that as sufficient.

Relegating them to the position of side characters is like making an Avengers movie where only Tony Stark ever does anything and the rest of the team just sits on the Helicarrier and watches him.

Not every movie is an Avengers movie, though. The Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc movies aren't worse off for not dragging every last Avenger along with them every time something happens. Having a measure of restraint helps keep the story focused on a particular hero and their situation and helps keep things tense because they don't always have a Hulk to throw at their problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well first off keep in mind that my argument isn't "literally no one but Sonic ever"; I'm fine with having games where a couple of other characters have major/playable roles, but they should be focused and not just throwing in as much as they can.

Fair enough. By that same token I'm not suggesting that SEGA try and cram every character in existence into a single game, or even that I'm against Sonic only games. On the contrary, I have no problems with games where Sonic is the only playable character as he is in games Secret Rings or Unleashed, my problem is when every game is like that and all other characters are pushed to the sidelines and never given a chance to shine. That goes double when it's out of character for them and quadruple if don't get to do anything of importance, not only does it squander their potential but it cheapens the characters as well.

 

 

As for specifics, Silver and Blaze are far enough away from things that I wouldn't expect them to show up at all without specific reason; it wouldn't make sense to have them jump through space and time just because Eggman's up to something again. Knuckles and Shadow both have plausible reasons for not showing up every time (guarding the island and GUN duties, respectively), so they could be shelved until a game is made where they're specifically relevant. If they wanted to include them in minor roles, treasure hunting/GUN duties (again respectively) are enough to get them out in the world for Sonic to interact with, without tying them to the main story such that they can't bow out when the plot kicks in.

You know, I thought Silver and Blaze would be safe from becoming little more than cheerleaders given their roles, Generations proved me wrong. Thanks Generations. In theory though, yeah, Silver and Blaze's positions generally mean that they won't show up unless something big is going down. As for Knuckles and Shadow they're rather difficult to justify having in minor roles. I find it very difficult to believe that treasure hunting or day-to-day G.U.N. work would take priority over saving the world, which, unless Eggman's plan is painfully small scaled, is going to be the crux of the main plot (and because of those stakes I find it hard to believe that G.U.N. wouldn't be throwing their resident "one hog army" at whatever the main plot is, making it rather difficult to justify Shadow not putting in an appearance). Really any reason compelling enough for Knuckles or Shadow to bow out of Sonic's plot (e.g. The Master Emerald being shattered) is going to be compelling enough for them to warrant their own story about it. You might be able to have Shadow bow out due to becoming entangled in red tape and obstructive bureaucrats (it could actually be rather humorous to boot), but it can only happen so many times before it starts coming off as a lazy excuse to keep having him make appearances without actually letting him do anything.

 

 

Sounds like a bunch of shit characters. They'd be better served by giving them other interests rather than continuing to mindlessly throw them into battle and treating that as sufficient.

Yeah, I kind of had two trains of thought, "one being that the other characters are sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing of use in recent games," and the other being that "these characters skill sets are best suited to battle." Both trains crashed into each other and the result is that train-wreck of a sentence. To elaborate a bit on my meaning, I'm not saying that these characters have absolutely no skills or interests outside of fighting (though Battle and, to a lesser extent, '06 seem to imply that Shadow has taken Gray Fox's whole "Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in." speech from Metal Gear Solid to heart). To use another Avengers example though let's take a look at Bruce Banner, he's a brilliant scientist and that does come in handy early on when he helps track the Tesseract, much like how Knuckles' treasure hunting helps the team in Zero Gravity, but when the action starts and the aliens invade New York, Banner Hulks out and goes to join the fight, because no matter how smart he might be he's not going to be much help studying things in the lab, he's more useful out smashing heads with the team. Thor can provide some information about Asgard but his most important contribution to the team is shooting lightning and hitting things with a hammer. Contrast with a character like Nick Fury or Tails who posses other skills which can be immediately useful when the action picks up, even if they're not in the thick of it. Fury can take a commanding role, maintaining an overview of the situation and making sure everyone goes where they're most needed, Tails can make repairs to things as needed, he can develop new weapons and gadgets to help in the fight, he can hack and sabotage the enemy's equipment, he can fly up into the air to scout for enemies, he can go up in the Tornado and bomb the baddies from afar. As for someone like Knuckles, well, it's not really going to make a difference if those ancient runes are translated now or a bit later, when the action picks up he's better of beating the shit out of things alongside Sonic. 

Even if a character's only relevant skill set is focused on fighting it doesn't make them a bad character. Sonic himself has very little pertinent skills or interests outside of fighting bad guys. It doesn't make him a shitty character, it just means that he's really not cut out for a supporting role. This is sort of where the first train crashes in, the characters are being relegated to a supporting role and in addition to being more useful in a more central role they're not using any of the abilities they posses that would give them some purpose in a supporting roleeffectively rendering them useless.

 

 

Not every movie is an Avengers movie, though. The Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, etc movies aren't worse off for not dragging every last Avenger along with them every time something happens. Having a measure of restraint helps keep the story focused on a particular hero and their situation and helps keep things tense because they don't always have a Hulk to throw at their problems.

True, although not every non-Avengers movie is an Iron Man movie either, which kind of ties back to what Azoo was saying about giving other characters their own games. Regardless though if I go to see an Avengers movie I expect to see, you know, The Avengers. Even if it's not necessarily an Avengers movie though it doesn't mean that the other members of the team should be useless if they do appear; they're still superheroes who care about saving the world after all. If Thor shows up in a Captain America film for more than an after-credits cameo then I expect him to do something beyond just sitting on his ass and yelling about homing shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like for the most part everyone's on the same page at least on the base fundamental level.

 

At any rate, save for the inconsequential spinoffs and the like, I've always held that we should overall hold off on from having everyone in the same game, at least in a capacity where all of their stories are co-reliant and interwoven until your occasional Adventure game (or Heroes were we to have one of those again). On the other side of that coin, I think we should hold off on having certain specific characters playable at all in their own major roles except on said occasions.

Charmy, Espio, Vector, Cream etc... I'm not exactly all for the idea of having them all featured in their own games. In fact I think it's kindof a bad idea. There are more major characters that I hold the same stance on.

That said, I don't think we should keep all of these characters unplayable until said occasions. That meaning that while I don't think they should have their own games, I do think that they could function really well as individual gameplay styles both as a way to flesh out these characters and overall a great way to have fun without being for all intents and purposes forced to play as Sonic. A way for them to have involving, fun, unique and catching gameplay isn't really a problem. The only issue I see is a way to sell that to the public, which is essentially Diogenes' main point.

I talked up there about various ways for individual characters to play other than being inexplicable Sonic clones as well as their player relevance aside from inexplicably interacting with Sonic time and time again despite some of their responsibilities and lifestyles (it doesn't make sense for the Master Emerald to ALWAYS be getting f'd up or Cheese to always be getting kidnapped or Shadow, Rouge, Blaze and Silver, especially those last two, to for some reason be showing up all the time), but in the first place, how do you get enough people sitting in front of their TVs with the controller to play these characters without it always being an Adventure game? Just releasing Sonic Adventure after Sonic Adventure year after year seems a bit...shaky lol. Ironic given the slew of Mario Worlds, Parties and Karts with virtually no change in content from title to title, especially on the whole if one doesn't include graphics. That said, maybe doing that wouldn't be a terrible idea. Maybe every two years, a game where Sonic and a small roster of characters are added into one such game with individual play styles would actually be a pretty good way for things to roll, especially with a number of "smaller" titles here and there in the meantime. Sonic-solo titles, racing games, spinoffs.. Even titles that even allow for said individual character play styles to be present alongside Sonic's albeit on a smaller scale roster and theme wise. For example, the next Sonic Rush title. Sonic doing his thing, and Blaze doing hers. You have two individual play styles and your Sonic's there as a buffer and a main selling point while still providing that development for other characters; allowing the audience to grow accustomed to and familiar with these names and faces that they otherwise might not know or even care about. I'm not sure if this would be a Sonic and partner/parallels/friend(s) (maybe one or two) type of dynamic every release of a game like this, but It would allow for the progression of these characters to the point where perhaps, getting back to original point, they could finally and eventually sport a handful of their own games entirely apart from norm-deviation/world-saving/teamworkapocalypse-prevention and Sonic-reliant relevance in a capacity where this wouldn't continue to be an issue.

 

EDIT: In hindsight, I do get a quasi MCU feel from some of this, haha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like Azoo's idea of just starting off with individual spin off games on handhelds to start as a base to build up the other characters from.  Of course being a spin does not exempt it from quality and I think really polishing the game and making the other characters in their respective games fun to play as can turn these games into hidden gems.  Also, while I agree with diogenes about how much of a struggle it'd be to convince some sonic fans to play these games, I don't believe it'll be as nearly impossible to do so.  As an example, look at the recently released Sonic Runners which is a significant title despite the platform it was released on.  The game is one of the only Sonic games where you can on paper play as all 14 characters in a 2-D side scrolling platformer.  While on the leader boards (3-star S rank mostly), I've noticed so many other characters that were not Sonic on the top level and I think it's because of two things.  Number one reason from a meta standpoint is that these characters are chosen over Sonic is because they handle nicely and offer huge score bonuses.  Who the character is is secondary when they offer a lot for playing them and are just fun to use.  Number 2 and this might contradict number 1 and could be much harder to prove but some are actually liked by the user playing as them as characters.  The point I'm trying to make here is that people WILL choose Sonic's friends if given the chance.  A lot of it has to do with being fun and rewarding to play as.  Players (and I'm not exempt from doing this), often attribute their favorite characters with how much they enjoyed playing as them.  Going back to these spin off games, I think that while they may not sell as well as a main title Sonic game, they can at least be really enjoyable if it's of quality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Due to the sheer number of skills Sonic and co have, I have the idea of dividing their abilities between forms, as a sort of "evolving moveset". This gives players more motivation to get Super Sonic, as opposed to just perma-invincibility.  For example, Sonic normally would just have the Spin Dash, Spin Attack, Spin Jump, Insta-Shield, Shield abilities, Peel-Out, Thok, Parkour, and Sonic Combo (his basic attacks from Battle). When he becomes Super, he gets the Homing Attack, Light Speed Dash, Bounce, Stomp, Fire Somersault, and Double Jump. Hyper Sonic then gains Light Speed Attack, Boost, Blue Tornado, Speed Break, Sonic Wind, and Time Stop. The same could go for Knuckles, who could start with Spin Attack, Spin Dash, Spin Jump, Punch, Block, and Shovel Claw. Super Knuckles gets Punch Rush, Uppercut, Drill Claw, Head Slam, and Hammer Knuckle. Hyper Knuckles gets Hyper Quake, Maximum Heat Knuckle, and Volcano Punch.

 

What do you think of that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Due to the sheer number of skills Sonic and co have, I have the idea of dividing their abilities between forms, as a sort of "evolving moveset". This gives players more motivation to get Super Sonic, as opposed to just perma-invincibility.  For example, Sonic normally would just have the Spin Dash, Spin Attack, Spin Jump, Insta-Shield, Shield abilities, Peel-Out, Thok, Parkour, and Sonic Combo (his basic attacks from Battle). When he becomes Super, he gets the Homing Attack, Light Speed Dash, Bounce, Stomp, Fire Somersault, and Double Jump. Hyper Sonic then gains Light Speed Attack, Boost, Blue Tornado, Speed Break, Sonic Wind, and Time Stop. The same could go for Knuckles, who could start with Spin Attack, Spin Dash, Spin Jump, Punch, Block, and Shovel Claw. Super Knuckles gets Punch Rush, Uppercut, Drill Claw, Head Slam, and Hammer Knuckle. Hyper Knuckles gets Hyper Quake, Maximum Heat Knuckle, and Volcano Punch.

 

What do you think of that?

Well I guess the first thing is that all of those abilities are skills that Sonic uses pretty concretely and definitively in his base form, so I don't know why they'd be tied to or features of any sort of transformation.

I see that is the whole point of your comment looking at "I have the idea of dividing their abilities between forms, as a sort of "evolving moveset".", just taking their normal moves and making them exclusive to different transformations that they have to unlock? I'd say no, no for it at all.

Just for a few reasons:

  1. You said "This gives players more motivation to get Super Sonic, as opposed to just perma-invincibility". First off, for that to be a valid point, the moves would have to be in an environment where all of these skills would really even matter or have any point, so I'm assuming you meant all of this in a fighting game like Battle or Fighters. Player motivation aside or not, designing and adding all of these skills and stuff is really honestly pointless if we're honest with ourselves as Sonic fans lol. That is, unless it's a beat-em-up or fighting game or a game that has beat-em-up and/or fighting features, putting things like that in something like SA2B, Unleashed (sans night obv), Generations, or Colors its a lost cause unless you just wanna see your little character do it lol.
  2. So assuming we have the right playing environment for the skills to have any worth programming or being there in the first place, your idea isn't bad by any means if under a different direction. I'd say rather than taking those moves that we already have in base state and didn't really have to unlock super sonic to get at all before, just create a few new skills for those transformations. Doesn't make much sense for abilities as basic as that to be made exclusive to a super transformation, especially seeing as they've just been normal moves for years. :lol: Taking skills that players have always had originally and making them exclusives to some special form that they have to unlock in a subsequent games usually isn't a good idea, regardless of the slightly different scenario in which they had them before, haha. Especially if you're going to talk about motivation. XD
  3. So yeah, in conclusion, I'd say you've got a good idea as long as its a fighter and/or beat-em-up with newly rewarded moves as opposed to granting use those we used to already have. That is, not rewarding us with something we already had instead of giving us something cool, new and worthy of the transformation and the work put in to get it. Not to mention how it wouldn't make sense for our character Sonic to all of a sudden have to transform to do something he could always do when he was blue lol. :/     :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am terrible at thinking of gameplay (it will always just consist of run around and do random shit if I had to describe it) but I'm so craving literally any sort of mechanic of other playable characters so badly, that I am settling for modded PC Generations and being able to run around as Sonic-reskinned Shadow, Blaze, Silver, etc. All I want is to see the others in their full glory, and not just cameos. I don't expect much, if anything, from modern games anymore though, and that depresses me greatly, though I'd kill for solo, or team typed games starring anyone who isn't Sonic, even if I don't like them that much, just for something new!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am terrible at thinking of gameplay (it will always just consist of run around and do random shit if I had to describe it) but I'm so craving literally any sort of mechanic of other playable characters so badly, that I am settling for modded PC Generations and being able to run around as Sonic-reskinned Shadow, Blaze, Silver, etc. All I want is to see the others in their full glory, and not just cameos. I don't expect much, if anything, from modern games anymore though, and that depresses me greatly, though I'd kill for solo, or team typed games starring anyone who isn't Sonic, even if I don't like them that much, just for something new!

Bring back the character select screen >.>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am terrible at thinking of gameplay (it will always just consist of run around and do random shit if I had to describe it) but I'm so craving literally any sort of mechanic of other playable characters so badly, that I am settling for modded PC Generations and being able to run around as Sonic-reskinned Shadow, Blaze, Silver, etc. All I want is to see the others in their full glory, and not just cameos. I don't expect much, if anything, from modern games anymore though, and that depresses me greatly, though I'd kill for solo, or team typed games starring anyone who isn't Sonic, even if I don't like them that much, just for something new!

Yeah, me too. I am considering getting Fire and Ice (a BOOM game) used so I can play as everyone else. Even Runners could have satiated me if it weren't for the overbearing gambling elements.  Yes, I have Jump Fever of all games on my iPhone, but I still rarely play it. Have you heard of some of the fan-games with large character rosters? Such as Sonic World or Sonic Revolution? The real games need to do that. This is also a major reason why I got Freedom Planet.

 

P.S.: Are there any classic 2D fan-games where I can play as more than just Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.