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Why the animosity towards one another?


tenchibr

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An off-topic "you're welcome."

Yes, a chat room would be lovely! I think a lot of us want to carry out a public conversation in real-time, and instead, we might post something that might be too helpful towards the thread.

Although the only catch is once you press that Enter, that's it. I am always editing my posts because I overlook grammar errors or I feel like something I said didn't come out right and soforth.

We have an official unofficial Skype chat. And on Skype, you can edit your posts, too! It's also good because if you're away from your computer or sign out of Skype, when you come back it will load up all the posts you missed. I can add you to it if you want, PM me your Skype ID.

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The point I'm making is that sometimes, the animosity towards one another is a good thing. For example, that one time I went into the Pony thread and said "this show is cancer and I hate it", which was followed swiftly by at least 10 people shitting on me and 1 harrassing me through PM, I learned really fucking fast not to bullshit around in that thread anymore, and I bet you this applies to more than just that pony thread for others. You learn goddamn quick not to go around dumping ass on every thread you see when you know you're going to get dumped-ass on right back

That's not a case of dealing with animosity, it's a case of knowing better beforehand. You could find a bingo hall filled with the sweetest old ladies imaginable, but if you walk in there and whip your tallywhacker out in the middle of the room, you're gonna have a herd of Geritol-possessed grannies on your ass faster than you can say AARP.

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That's not a case of dealing with animosity, it's a case of knowing better beforehand.

Some people say laughter is the best medicine; I think it's prevention.

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An off-topic "you're welcome."

Yes, a chat room would be lovely! I think a lot of us want to carry out a public conversation in real-time, and instead, we might post something that might be too helpful towards the thread.

Although the only catch is once you press that Enter, that's it. I am always editing my posts because I overlook grammar errors or I feel like something I said didn't come out right and soforth.

Well I heard there's a Skype group here, and then there's the IRC chatroom....but it's been kind of desolate for several months.

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I agree. I'm pretty new here and I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone, but sometimes it does seem to become a little personal rather than friendly debate.

Edited by hangarninetysix
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I try to always be nice with people, but I can get pretty annoying with my endless walls of texts about characters and such.

I more of a lulzy user but I can hold pretty serious discussions when I want to.

Edited by Anti Alias
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I'm coming here to make a statement regarding the animosity in debates, and I have to say that looking back on some of the recent counterpoints I've been getting from newer members I'm starting to feel like I need to verbally set them on fire. I've been known to be confrontational to the point of pushing people on the edge, but I've kept some what of a cool head whenever possible when I show holes in people's points. But now I'm starting to think I need to push some of them off a metaphorical cliff and let them hang there and part of it has to do with bias and the logic they use towards it.

It's not that I've never dealt with bias before, considering we've done a lot to break that down and keep each other from falling too victim of it. And I'm not saying that no one isn't biased to some degree since we all have preferences. But say you have a talk about "originality" or "creativity" in something, and someone throws the labels as an underhanded way of calling something "good" or "bad" and the way they apply them reaches a point where I'm getting real sick of pulling punches in a debate.

So, yeah. Call it a bit of a growing irritation. Which is saying a lot, because I've seen no point to do this until recently.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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But now I'm starting to think I need to push some of them off a metaphorical cliff and let them hang there and part of it has to do with bias and the logic they use towards it.

I really don't think throwing people off of proverbial cliffs in any kind of debating is a constructive behavior, to be honest.

That's not to say you should pull punches either but using a fight mentality, or fight metaphors when debating is a bad mindset to begin with. You should be winning people over, not trying to defeat or destroy them or whatever.

This kind of thing- punches, cliffs is why people think there's any kind of animosity here to begin with. I love debating as much as the next guy but it should probably strive to be less of a pissing match.

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I really don't think throwing people off of proverbial cliffs in any kind of debating is a constructive behavior, to be honest.

It isn't. It's suppose to help me feel better. tongue.png

That's not to say you should pull punches either but using a fight mentality when debating is a bad mindset to begin with. You should be winning people over, not trying to defeat or destroy them or whatever.

Debating is essentially fighting with words instead of fists (or guns, or whatever physical object you want to mention), so it's a fight mentality regardless. You're trying to defeat someone's point by proving them wrong or convince them that there's a better way.

Now people bring their ideas and whatever experiences they have with the idea to the table, and naturally things get heated when people disagree. Some people don't make sense in the debate either. I've never had a problem with people using faulty logic, proving people's points wrong, or winning them over, but I'm seeing a point to where crushing their argument against its own hypocrisy is starting to become even more necessary to show them their arguement.

Either that or Tornado is starting to rub off on me. laugh.png

This kind of thing- punches, cliffs is why people think there's any kind of animosity here to begin with. I love debating as much as the next guy but it should probably strive to be less of a pissing match.

Okay, I'd say that has more to do with backbone than it being a pissing match. You remember Dio...er, Hella Jeff's comment about idea's deserving a "trial by fire"? That's what a lot of these debates are. Think of it as a sparring match where we're testing each other to be up on their game. It's that kind of understanding between each other (well mainly veterans) that we can be fiery as hell, but with no hard feelings afterward. It only becomes a problem when someone "cheats" by bashing, intentionally leaving out details, moving the goalposts, or lying, for a few examples.

And understandably, to new or rather sensitive people, that comes off as too intense for them to be a part of, and they get rather defensive. A bit more complicated than that, but even so, I do go out of my way whenever possible to show that I have no ill-will towards that person if they're really defensive like that.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Gonna comment on something. Watch out!:

As someone said above, it isn't just the fact that there's no news on Sonic games. It's the indirect effect that this has; it causes us to not have much to talk about, so we talk about the same things over and over, and people get tired of it and tend to say stuff like "Not this shit again...". It's not the reason, but it's certainly a contributing factor.

Since hes quoting me I'm jumping back into this...

I'm playing the opposite side here and see where hes coming from, this shit can tend to repeat itself over and over without new information to distract us and we can't allways put the same damn smile on the same topic we have seen again and again.

It gets tiring to the point where we do get snitty with our posts sometimes because we have already expressed our opinions in clear detail already. Don't blame us old members, everything you new members think up we have discussed 1,000 times over (and my forefathers topic proved that!) and only thing that really keeps us around is the new information. with new information comes new ideas and new ways for us to express our opinions without regurgitating the same old.

So yes, In my opinion, New Sonic news does play some role in our moods at least when it comes to us older folk. maybe not a huge one but some role regardless.

Thats up to the individual then. Some of us just ignore them but others don't and choose to post. we can't be all forced do to 1 thing or another.

Yes. It does get pretty tiring to see the same things discussed over and over and over. And yes, it does get pretty annoying when a new member has a "new" idea that isn't at all new; and when you explain to them the infeasibility of it or why it isn't new or whatever they dig in about it. And yes, when those new ideas amount to nothing more than tired old cliches masquerading as arguments, it is infuriating. And most importantly in regards to what you are saying, yes, there is an elitist "petulant child" feeling among older members to have this new member come along and have the audacity to question the old guard and blah blah blah.

And you don't need to pretend that there is some other, "better" reason for it, because I know where you're coming from. I've been here just as long as you have. I know that feeling, and I do feel the same way at times (most recently during the last round of "Why do people hate ShtH" topics). You know what I did? For the past couple years I don't go in Sonic Discussion anymore unless something really awesome pops up that grabs my attention or if someone says something that I absolutely have to comment on. That's why probably 75% or my posts are in Chit Chat and the Video Games forums. And I know that there is a problem with letting a new member spread around a false notion because all of the older members don't want to deal with it again. A crawling feeling at the back of your head that you just can't scratch knowing that something like that is happening. I know. But it isn't their fault that you've been around for years and they haven't; and if it starts to come up that you feel obligated to "correct" new members on something they're saying rather than actually discussing things with them, is it really worth posting in the first place?

Edited by Tornado
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Honestly, when it comes to newer members who bring up topics we've discussed a thousand times, I just keep in mind "Okay CSS, these guys are newbies, so let's show them the ropes and explain to them that this topic has been grounded to death in discussion." That, and I tend to have fun crushing their ideas informing them of information they may not have have ever thought of. They're sometimes surprised when you tell them something they might not have realized.

It's kinda why I was much nicer to miru (well for whatever that's worth, since I did mess with him a bit myself) than other members were, and why I stuck up for him when others ganged up on him as a troll in the status abuse topic.

Come on, now. Newer members don't know the things here as we do, and I believe it's our role as the old guard not to be an too much of an asshole or an elitist when it comes to giving them a "trial by fire". Of course, them being assholish or simple-minded would be a different story...er, I don't think I helped my case with that sentence, did I?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Not to mention that the newbs actually haven't had the chance to discuss the topic yet and may want to know our opinions on it.

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Honestly? Reading this is making me think you are being the elitist asshole, just because we've had topics done to death doesn't mean you need to take part in a repeat topic just to mess with new members and challenge newbies, if you're just going to cause trouble with your intense debates then don't bother, take a chapter out of Tornado's book and don't bother with Sonic Discussion until something you want to discuss civilly without "crushing their ideas" comes along.

In CSS's "defense," he was clearly trolling and you fell for it. That's his style; the fact that he even did it here proves my point. I learned to tolerate it.

HOWEVER, not everyone is the same, and just because I can put up with it does not excuse it. If it was unintentional, that'd be one thing; but some people enjoy the cynicism in the air.

There's a place for that, and it's called 4chan.

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Honestly? Reading this is making me think you are being the elitist asshole, just because we've had topics done to death doesn't mean you need to take part in a repeat topic just to mess with new members and challenge newbies, if you're just going to cause trouble with your intense debates then don't bother, take a chapter out of Tornado's book and don't bother with Sonic Discussion until something you want to discuss civilly without "crushing their ideas" comes along.

You do realize I was joking when I was talking about "crushing their ideas", right? That's kinda why I had the text strikedthrough. tongue.png

I mean, seriously, the paragraphs afterward have me explaining my defense of Miru when everyone thought he was a troll. I mean, you've been on here long enough to know how I am, haven't you?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Honestly? Reading this is making me think you are being the elitist asshole
Come on, now. Newer members don't know the things here as we do, and I believe it's our role as the old guard not to be an too much of an asshole or an elitist when it comes to giving them a "trial by fire".

Wat.

In CSS's "defense," he was clearly trolling and you fell for it. That's his style; the fact that he even did it here proves my point. I learned to tolerate it.

HOWEVER, not everyone is the same, and just because I can put up with it does not excuse it. If it was unintentional, that'd be one thing; but some people enjoy the cynicism in the air.

There's a place for that, and it's called 4chan.

Hold on a second. I've followed and generally agreed with most of this thread so far, from a silent perspective because I'm well aware of my role in the proceedings, but did you seriously just suggest that there should be no allowance for members making light of things? What the hell do you want this message board to become if you think that just because you are able to "tolerate it," there is no excuse for someone to even be joking around?

Furthermore, if you honestly equate the manner that CSS posted in to be "clearly trolling" in the style of a 4Chan member, I have to assume you experienced 4Chan on the friendliest day the website had in its entire existence (possibly on a day it was shut down) and that your standards for what trolling is are incredibly skewed. Blue haired old ladies play more daring pranks on each other than facetiously using strikeout text formatting to tell a joke of the same caliber as a Garfield comic strip.

And while I'm almost certain I shouldn't open this can of worms (because the overt hypocrisy of me being the one to do it is not lost on me either), based on this response and a couple of other posts you've made in this thread, I'm actually starting to legitimately wonder how much of the animosity you are seeing is actually there and how much of it is you misinterpreting caustic responses and/or heated-but-still-perfectly-amicable debate between people who know how to debate properly as people being at each other's throats. Animosity is certainly there at times, and it's certainly caused more frequently by some members than by others and in response to some specific topics more than others; but now you seem to be severely overblowing how much it actually happens, particularly if you sincerely feel CSS needs a defense to justify cracking a joke about the situation.

Edited by Tornado
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did you seriously just suggest that there should be no allowance for members making light of things? What the hell do you want this message board to become if you think that just because you are able to "tolerate it," there is no excuse for someone to even be joking around?

There's a time and place for everything. All I meant was I don't think this is the thread to do something like that. On one hand I agree sometimes people get oversensitive; context is everything.

But this is a very sensitive thread; many pages ago, in this same thread, Wolfy himself was joking about how he saw his thread, and at first I took the wrong way. It's there if you want to see. Once I got the joke, I let it go.

To answer your question, no, I am not saying we should act like censorship is everywhere. Do I think that CSS's comment was 4chan-like? No, and I go there everyday, but I just lurk, no posting. In fact, it helps me desensitize from getting offended too easily. I just don't look for that kind of attitude here.

Before I dig myself a bigger hole, let me just say it helps for members to get to know each other. You long-time members not only do know each other and understand when one is being serious or not, but you also had the time to do so. And on the other side of the room, new members don't know you guys well enough to know where you are coming from. While I personally believe that Soniko overreacted a tiny bit, I can understand where she's coming from because she doesn't know CSS well enough (like you do).

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You do realize I was joking when I was talking about "crushing their ideas", right? That's kinda why I had the text strikedthrough. tongue.png

I mean, seriously, the paragraphs afterward have me explaining my defense of Miru when everyone thought he was a troll. I mean, you've been on here long enough to know how I am, haven't you?

Yeah i guess so, I just know you can be rather in your face with heated debates but just the way you worded the last 2 posts in this thread, made me step in to give my two cents, no hard feelings ok?

In CSS's "defense," he was clearly trolling and you fell for it. That's his style; the fact that he even did it here proves my point. I learned to tolerate it.

HOWEVER, not everyone is the same, and just because I can put up with it does not excuse it. If it was unintentional, that'd be one thing; but some people enjoy the cynicism in the air.

There's a place for that, and it's called 4chan.

Actually i knew he was joking but i felt i had to expand on the jokey attitude he took with this thread, nothing personal but i felt something had to be said.

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Boy, I have to say, I do get into arguments as well and know that when doing so, is not for an elitist status but an argumentative discussion. I do not know what is exactly going on in the Sonic Discussion and Marketplalce (what the fuck?) forums, but what I can say is that this is not what I expect from SSMB...one of the most friendliest placeson the interwebs.

Right now, the sad thing about this forum is the split between the forum veterans, who religiously come here to chat and elaborate on each and every favorite detail and the forum newcomers who believe that since this forum has a very good reputation to get good responses for their topics. When a novice comes here with a question that is already answered, the forum veterans take it like a pet peeve and try to answer the topic without seemingly coming off as annoyed. Also, the harshness of answers for very vague topics also makes newcomers look at moderators and veteran users as elitist because of the way the users respond to the topic. An instance I remember is when saw a topic in Sonic Discussion about Amy Rose and some type of situation which was seemingly possible for open discussion, but moderators did not see it as plasuible enough to be discussed, the users ended up posting the topic in the "Status Updates" feature of the forum right after the topic was locked because I (and a couple others) thought that the topic had some discussion value. I even made a topic called "Discussion Value" just to make sure I do not break the rules for repeating the topic again,

Quite Simply, People who has been on this forum for years want newcomers to respect the forums, while newcomers want to break boundaries and find topics that probably have not been discussed before without being encroached by strict rules.

Edited by novelty
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Alright, so. There is one

small

thing

severely disturbing me in this thread. I won't tell you what, but there definitely there are some unpleasant people posting in this thread contributing to an aura of unpleasantness here. And I wish they stopped being like that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, what I just did is exactly what is bothering me quite a little here. Now, I'm all for expressing feelings and resolving our differences, but please, don't offend other members while protecting yourself with a shield of benefit-of-the-doubt-ite. If anything, do bring the specific post(s) that made you think so and hide the author. I mean, it's not really something I can back up, since tenchibr is, in the end, right about talking about the matter rather than the people. It's more of a personal request.

Because it creates a negative aura in itself, you see. And even though we all know you guys had someone in mind when you specifically used the term "bad apples" (so yes, I'm talking to all of you who used this one term), no one really can come out and say "hey, are you talking about me/him/her/them?", but it still instigates curiosity... at least in me.

Edited by Palas
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Alright, so. There is one

small

thing

severely disturbing me in this thread. I won't tell you what, but there definitely there are some unpleasant people posting in this thread contributing to an aura of unpleasantness here. And I wish they stopped being like that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, what I just did is exactly what is bothering me quite a little here. Now, I'm all for expressing feelings and resolving our differences, but please, don't offend other members while protecting yourself with a shield of benefit-of-the-doubt-ite. If anything, do bring the specific post(s) that made you think so and hide the author. I mean, it's not really something I can back up, since tenchibr is, in the end, right about talking about the matter rather than the people. It's more of a personal request.

Because it creates a negative aura in itself, you see. And even though we all know you guys had someone in mind when you specifically used the term "bad apples" (so yes, I'm talking to all of you who used this one term), no one really can come out and say "hey, are you talking about me/him/her/them?", but it still instigates curiosity... at least in me.

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Here is the funny thing, Palas, my focus was not to offend but to point out what is going on overall on these fourms. I like all of the mods (including Sean) and I like newcomers (like you!) and I do my best to avoid offending anyone...but when someone does not give the proper respect, I would find out what is going on. If that does not work out, then what comes around goes around. :/

...But you didn't do it. You referred more to a situation than anything. I mean, maybe it's just me, but it makes me sort of anxious when I see things like this:

After seeing a couple train wrecks, it seems like the negative energy is coming from a couple member that really aren't regulars.

To be honest, I think it's certain members that are really bringing out the worst in us lately. Not saying names, but most of them are recent members (except one long-standing one who I feel has gotten worse), but it really feels like they are trying to flamebait us, and well......it works. Not saying it's completely their faults (we do often except the flamebait after all), but I feel if these certain members tone down, we'll go back to our normal selves.

I sometimes read the Sonic Discussions and rarely post there because usually their some big master debate over something that just seems so trivial to me.

I don't think we should blame the lack of new games. Some people are just a bit too big for their boots around here. Don't get me wrong, I love this community, but there are some bad apples that put forth an unfortunate example and make new members think it's okay to be a dick.

And I only felt personally hinted at in the second one. But all of them gave off this "accusing, but not quite" vibe.

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On that subject, I try to believe that if you can use a computer, you are mature enough to know where you stand. If you think that message was for you, maybe it was; either way, just make sure, going forward, that you take the good advice being given here to heart and just change. Let the past be in the past.

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That's not the point. Posts like these spread the uneasy feeling of "there is uneasiness, but it's foating in the air and I can't grasp it". Heck, this can happen at any time. One can make a status update like this (the infamous "indireta". I don't even know if English has a direct translation to that, with the same exact meaning. You know what I'm talking about) and spark GENERAL uneasiness out of the blue.

When you call someone out, the animosity is, of course, much bigger, but it's just there between you two. With this kind of indirect behaviour, everyone feels it.

EDIT: Heck, I'll even go further and say that's an educational technique for kids. When someone is making a mess in the classroom behind everyone's back, all you as a teacher have to do is to imply you know who it is but don't tell who it is. Also an expression I don't know of in English, "jogar o verde" (literally throw the... green... but I'm sure it doesn't make sense to most of you). Everyone will watch themselves more from then on and that's a good thing, but it doesn't stop it from spreading uneasiness.

Edited by Palas
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