Why the animosity towards one another?

[Frogging101]

There's not really anything that the staff can do in situations like that outside of when that harassment carries over on to on-board activities. You can report it and, they might keep an eye on whoever was doing it to make sure it doesn't happen here, but that's about all the site rules cover=.

Exactly. It's neither their responsibility nor within their power to control what happens outside of SSMB on any unofficial websites, forums, communications platforms or other online community services. Their job is to enforce the rules on SSMB (and only SSMB) and make sure that we can enjoy the site without harassment from trolls or other members. If SSMB members are misbehaving/harassing you outside of SSMB, report them to whoever is in charge of the service in question or just stay off that service. I mean I guess you could tell the staff here, but the best they can do is keep an eye one whoever's doing it unless they have some kind of control or influence over the other service.

This goes for pretty much every online community, really. Sorry if I went into backseat-modding territory here (I don't represent the staff, I just have experience with other communities and even running my own for a while).

[Pelly <3's U]

Phantom R, ignoring that you seemed to infer quite a bit more from Sean's reply then what was actually there, I'm going to say if you go and join something unofficial and not endorsed by SSMB, then we are not responsible for the content or the happenings of what goes on there, and there is simply no way we can be. That's why it's an unofficial thing. It's basically the very definition. It is a courtesy to the members that we let them put up links and such to the unofficial skype chat because people seem to enjoy it and for the most part it doesn't cause a lot of trouble, but outside of that we don't have any interest of obligations to run it. We aren't the internet police.

 

When stuff happens that has in some ways occurred at least partially outside of the board but is also impacting the board, then that's a different story but in no way is any of that contradictory to what Sean said or your example.

 

And Sean is a member of the staff speaking from the perspective of the staff and our stance on things, and we are all of us in agreement to what he says, so stop trying to single him out in your post when what you're actually doing is addressing the forum's policy as a whole.

[Meta77]

For the most part this site has grown a lot since I orginally wondered here back around like what was it 05 or something. But still its a decent site for discussing sonic and seeing a few fur fans here and there. The only real compliant I have is that I have had a warn status from :someone: since 2009. The reason it is still there is mainly cause I refuse or therefore lack of hitting shift on my Is'.

Otherwise good site and no real hate either way.

[tenchibr]

I did say I was speculating, and that I could have interpreted out wrongly, but I don't have any more objections or speculations for that matter, so thank you for that.

[Frogging101]

So it's been about a month since the last post in this topic. I think maybe it's time for an update on the state of things, and what people think. Is the problem lessened? Is it gone? I always had a bit of trouble noticing it so it would be nice to have some input from everyone else who's more sensitive to this issue. I remember a that Vertekins made within the last month, and I noticed a few replies that I thought were quite rude. Reluctantly, I had to agree with a most of what people were saying but I didn't agree with how they were expressing it. But that's just me.

So yeah, what are your thoughts on how things have been going recently? I'm not trying to stir up trouble or anything; I just feel that being open about it is the best way to solve any problems that might be lingering . I personally feel that any problems we have could be mostly solved if people remembered a few important ideas, which have been brought up a couple times in this thread already. So, just to reiterate:
 

Absolutely. Sadly, some people don't do that and that's where the other factors come into the picture, such as lack of self-control and restraint. The concept of "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is a good philosophy to avoid this kind of thing.

 
 

[...]
When it comes down to the snark, I feel there is no valid excuse for it. Sure this is a time where things around here can be considered "boring", but does that mean it's okay liven things up via conflict? Honestly, I think there is no excuse for this type of behavior. I feel that if you can't be respectful of others' opinions on a forum then you shouldn't be here, let alone on the Internet interacting with others. Generally speaking, just because you disagree or dislike or don't understand even what someone said doesn't give you a "green light" to be disrespectful and insulting. You can disagree with something without being rude about it.

Something that I keep in mind is that behind every username, behind every avatar here at the SSMB is a human being with feelings, and we all desire and expect to be respected. Nobody enjoys being disrespected, more times than none it makes us feel bad and angry, which usually causes us to retaliate in return. So when I respond to someone in objection, no matter how mad they make me, I try to get my objection across respectfully without any insult.
[...]

By all means I welcome criticism, as I see is an opportunity to teach me something or bring something to my attention that I was completely unaware of or steer me in another direction in regards to my thinking possibly, but please dish out criticism without making me feel terrible or indicating that I lack common sense, or any sense at all.

 

 

Basically, it's definitely possible to tell people that they didn't present their ideas well, they used bad examples or that you don't agree with them  without being snarky, disrespectful, dismissive or rude. I know, you get likes for doing it, which is weird (I guess the explanation for this is that when something is slightly funny AND people agree with it, then people "like" it). But I've been going through posts and observing things, and you can get just as many likes by making a legitimate argument without the snark. Anyway, would you rather have "internet points", or would you rather have a friendlier forum? 

 

Again, there is nothing wrong with criticism and debate. Much like other fanbases, the Sonic fanbase is one that is very opinion-heavy. And if you post your opinion, you should be prepared to have people pick it apart and disagree with you. But I don't think anyone should be expected to put up with being attacked personally or snarky and disrespectful replies. Being candid is fine but don't go out of your way to make people feel like shit. 

 

Anyway, I'll stop preaching now. I just wanted everyone to be aware of the solution. 

Edited February 1, 2013 by Frogging101

[Vertekins]

So it's been about a month since the last post in this topic. I think maybe it's time for an update on the state of things, and what people think. Is the problem lessened? Is it gone? I always had a bit of trouble noticing it so it would be nice to have some input from everyone else who's more sensitive to this issue. I remember a that Vertekins made within the last month, and I noticed a few replies that I thought were quite rude. Reluctantly, I had to agree with a most of what people were saying but I didn't agree with how they were expressing it. But that's just me.

Basically, it's definitely possible to tell people that they didn't present their ideas well, they used bad examples or that you don't agree with them  without being snarky, disrespectful, dismissive or rude. I know, you get likes for doing it, which is weird (I guess the explanation for this is that when something is slightly funny AND people agree with it, then people "like" it). But I've been going through posts and observing things, and you can get just as many likes by making a legitimate argument without the snark. Anyway, would you rather have "internet points", or would you rather have a friendlier forum? 

 

Again, there is nothing wrong with criticism and debate. Much like other fanbases, the Sonic fanbase is one that is very opinion-heavy. And if you post your opinion, you should be prepared to have people pick it apart and disagree with you. But I don't think anyone should be expected to put up with being attacked personally or snarky and disrespectful replies. Being candid is fine but don't go out of your way to make people feel like shit. 

 

Anyway, I'll stop preaching now. I just wanted everyone to be aware of the solution. 

 

Regarding that topic.

 

It surprised me that people were so busy being cynical that not only did they miss the entire point of the topic but did not provide any compelling counter-argument to each of my points, instead just stating how Sonic is not any more dimensional that the typical shonen hero without backing up such a post with evidence. I've even had one member PM me stating how they love the OP in that topic but were put-off even responding in it and forming their own post because of the attitudes prevalent within it, feeling that their post would be pounced-upon also. This was a PM coming from a perfectly rational forum-frequenter BTW. Comes to something doesn't it when an intelligent, rational and polite member is discouraged from contributing to a topic because of the prevalent tone?

 

The point is, posts that disparage opinions without adding anything to the topic are met with likes Note how I said "opinions". "Opinion" =/= "worthy of scorn". This widespread habit of effectively condoning insults towards other members that also don't contribute anything towards the topic is a form of negative reinforcement and contribute to an perceptibly unpleasant forum attitude because it shows the condoning of it and puts across the impression that the forum finds it acceptable. I can bring up quite a few more examples.

 

You wanna know what I think? I haven't seen much action to curtail these attitudes personally. Certain members think they're untouchable because of it or because "That's their established mannerisms" And the praising of it by this habit of rabidly 'liking' posts that show approval of it contribute. The forum has a feel that when you post a topic, someone going to rain all over it. Newbie posts a topic? Members seem to expect by default that it'll be a crap topic and actually express surprise at a well-written one in the comments feed as if they think that newbies are incapable of rational and intelligent thought. You praise Unleashed in the comments box? Be prepared to be pounced upon by Generations/Colours fans denouncing your opinion as if they're offended by the fact that the game they're 'intimidated' by is receiving praise where it's due. Need I mention the all too frequent mentionings of the SEGA forum when, if my memory is correct, disparaging comments made about it were banned.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Vertekins

[SuperLink]

This is just a general observation and it miight just be me being oversensitive but there's a slight tendency to swear when it's not really necessary. I mean I think swearing in general is pretty harmless and I have no problem if it's used in a humorous context or towards a subject that isn't personalised, but sometimes when it's used to counter a point or condescend another member, putting "fucking" as a prefix to a word or phrase makes the whole context sound more violent than it needs to be.

 

This isn't so much an outright complaint, otherwise I would have reported it (and it's certainly a little petty). Swearing isn't the problem.

But it'd be cool if people were more a bit more conscientious in avoiding making posts sound more violent than they need to be? It doesn't help the discussion and more often than not it doesn't help your point to hit home more rhetorically, just more violently, really.

 

If I'm being too sensitive feel free to disregard this, but if you'd keep it in mind it might make the vibes of hot discussions a little less fiery! (Also I'm probably guilty of this in a few instances and I apologise for that v-v;; )

Edited February 1, 2013 by SuperLink

[Frogging101]

[snipped to conserve space]

 

The point is, posts that disparage opinions without adding anything to the topic are met with likes Note how I said "opinions". "Opinion" =/= "worthy of scorn". This widespread habit of effectively condoning insults towards other members that also don't contribute anything towards the topic is a form of negative reinforcement and contribute to an perceptibly unpleasant forum attitude because it shows the condoning of it and puts across the impression that the forum finds it acceptable. I can bring up quite a few more examples.

 

You wanna know what I think? I haven't seen much action to curtail these attitudes personally. Certain members think they're untouchable because of it or because "That's their established mannerisms" And the praising of it by this habit of rabidly 'liking' posts that show approval of it contribute.

 

[...]

 

I'm pretty sure the post you quoted is actually against the rules on spam. It's one sentence and it contributes very little to the topic. It's bad enough to call someone's opinion "the dumbest thing" as if that's a fact, but it's worse when at the same time you don't even provide any decent arguments (or any arguments at all). I'm not talking about just this particular post or member either, any post that does this is guilty. And the likes only serve to encourage it. There's a huge difference between "I disagree" and "Your opinion is dumb". They mean the same thing, but one of them drags the atmosphere and the mood down and the other is just a statement of disagreement with no personal attacks involved.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Frogging101

[Nepenthe]

I disagree that people missed the point of the topic; rather, people disagreed with the syllogisms you made. That's not wrong or reflects poorly on us, but it would've been better to see a rebuttal from a seasoned Shonen fan; I hear Monkey D. Luffy will make you cry after all. I also didn't feel that the topic delved into any particularly flame-y depths, but then again I've seen so much worse and have probably participated in it that I may have lost my frame of reference. So, to me, I don't think that topic's the best example of the worst of the worst. From what I can remember, things appear to have cooled down a degree. But that doesn't mean the overly-combative attitude and narcissism you described doesn't exist now nor that I condone it.

[Semi-colon e]

I agreed with you Verte up to the Unleashed bit, I don't think people are "intimidated" by the game, they just don't like it, so they disagree. These things are subjective after all. It's more to do with the attitudes than anything else on this forum. Hence why everyone dreads boost/character/gameplay/unleashed vs colours vs generations stuff because it just ends up being a pissing contest.

 

And yeah, not a lot has changed. Even I haven't been any better, I've probably been worse. It's all too easy to get dragged into the aggression at times.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Semi-colon e

[Nepenthe]

I think Verte's referring to the shit that goes on in statuses which, while it was silly and fun at first, has gotten to the point where I'm wondering whether or not the constant offenders are doing so to slyly take digs at the respective fans too. Hell, that's blatantly happened before with "Unleashed fans have no argument because all they talk about are the aesthetics and not gameplay" being the main one, which is hilariously false. It wouldn't be so annoying if it didn't happen so often and without sensible prompting, such as a topic about or inclusive to Unleashed that eventually spilled over in the statuses, but one can wake up on any random day and see a backhanded compliment to the game which, while insignificant on its own, only proceeds to compound negatively on the rest of the stuff I've seen before, so now it's just obnoxious.

[Blue Blood]

...

 

The point is, posts that disparage opinions without adding anything to the topic are met with likes Note how I said "opinions". "Opinion" =/= "worthy of scorn". This widespread habit of effectively condoning insults towards other members that also don't contribute anything towards the topic is a form of negative reinforcement and contribute to an perceptibly unpleasant forum attitude because it shows the condoning of it and puts across the impression that the forum finds it acceptable. I can bring up quite a few more examples.

 

...

 

 The forum has a feel that when you post a topic, someone going to rain all over it. Newbie posts a topic? Members seem to expect by default that it'll be a crap topic and actually express surprise at a well-written one in the comments feed as if they think that newbies are incapable of rational and intelligent thought. You praise Unleashed in the comments box? Be prepared to be pounced upon by Generations/Colours fans denouncing your opinion as if they're offended by the fact that the game they're 'intimidated' by is receiving praise where it's due.

It's tough to consider really. That particular post? Yes, it was harsh. But at the same time, that's what everyone that liked it was thinking. In the real world comments like that will fly left, right and centre. The poster should really be able to consider whether or not it's appropriate. That one perhaps should have been worded differently. Certain members can get away with it though.

 

I butt heads with you in particular on a number matters, and sometimes I've looked back on my posts and thought "oh wow, I sound like a total prick". Most of the time though that's not the case. It's almost as if if I am to speak as I normally would in the real world where nobody would bat an eyelid, I'm under the impression it's just going to upset people on here.. Regarding your Hidden Depths topic, I only see a few posts that I think were bad for discussion. A response that disagrees with you ≠ cynical ≠ scorn. It's an opinion just as much as everything else, and the arguments we've had about opinions on this board is ridiculous.

 

It's weird. I do agree with your post. But I also find it to be problem. There's a lot of over-sensitivity going on. Don't get it wrong, I'm not saying everyone should just shut up and deal with it. Half the time though I can only think people are making mountains out of molehills.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Frogging101]

I butt heads with you in particular on a number matters, and sometimes I've looked back on my posts and thought "oh wow, I sound like a total prick". Most of the time though that's not the case. It's almost as if if I am to speak as I normally would in the real world where nobody would bat an eyelid, I'm under the impression it's just going to upset people on here.. Regarding your Hidden Depths topic, I only see a few posts that I think were bad for discussion. A response that disagrees with you ≠ cynical ≠ scorn. It's an opinion just as much as everything else, and the arguments we've had about opinions on this board is ridiculous.

 

It's weird. I do agree with your post. But I also find it to be problem. There's a lot of over-sensitivity going on.

 

The reason for this is that in the real world words can be combined with tone of voice and other factors. But in text-based communication (like all forums), that doesn't exist. When you post something, the only thing anyone reading it has to work with is your exact words and maybe a bit of interpretation based on context. So if someone says what they think and they get a reply of "this is the dumbest thing", then it's hard not to feel at least a tiny bit unhappy about it.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Frogging101

[Carbo]

This topic is not a haven for members to mod one another.

[Frogging101]

This topic is not a haven for members to mod one another.

 

What does that mean and who was doing this? If it was me, I apologize.

[Blue Blood]

This topic is not a haven for members to mod one another.

There's only so far a point can be gotten across about this sort of thing without resorting to examples. Maybe this topic has just run it's course?

[Pelly <3's U]

Frogging, I get that your point on Dio was a reference but just the whole idea of calling out other member's specific posts (and I understand it wasn't you that linked it) is just a fine line to tread.

 

But then you called out Felix as well to claim he did something wrong with his post liking habits.....I get you're trying to make a point but this is how topics like these derail into member vs member rather than ideas on how to improve the forum as a whole.

 

It's a fine line to walk, I'm not even exactly sure what the middle ground is. We like the idea of a topic like this with members trying to take improving the forum into their own hands, but in the same instance just like the point you're making with your posts here...you have to be careful with how you phrase things.

 

On a side note, I dug through all the report to the date that post was made and there were none about it. Part of taking responsibility if there's something you don't like on the forum is reporting it. While I do think discussions like this have a place, we do have a system where you can be pretty pro-active on your part and let your voice be heard to the mod team very easily, and utilizing it is to your advantage. 

[Frogging101]

Frogging, I get that your point on Dio was a reference but just the whole idea of calling out other member's specific posts (and I understand it wasn't you that linked it) is just a fine line to tread.

 

But then you called out Felix as well to claim he did something wrong with his post liking habits.....I get you're trying to make a point but this is how topics like these derail into member vs member rather than ideas on how to improve the forum as a whole.

 

It's a fine line to walk, I'm not even exactly sure what the middle ground is. We like the idea of a topic like this with members trying to take improving the forum into their own hands, but in the same instance just like the point you're making with your posts is....you have to be careful with how you phrase things.

 

Oh, sorry. I guess I went slightly too far.

 

On a side note, I dug through all the report to the date that post was made and there were none about it. Part of taking responsibility if there's something you don't like on the forum is reporting it. While I do think discussions like this have a place, we do have a system where you can be pretty pro-active on your part and let your voice be heard to the mod team very easily, and utilizing it is to your advantage. 

 

Sometimes I don't know if I should report something or not, because sometimes it's in a bit of a grey area. With that post, the major problem I had with it was that it was insulting, but the only actual rule it's breaking is that it's short and insubstantial enough to maybe be considered spam. So yeah, it's just a bit difficult to tell sometimes; I don't want to be spammy or waste you guys' time.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Frogging101

[Carbo]

Rarely do we ever fault a user for reporting things. It's the best way to give us a heads up - if you feel like something is questionable, report it.

[Tornado]

I'm also going to comment on one thing:

So it's been about a month since the last post in this topic. I think maybe it's time for an update on the state of things, and what people think. Is the problem lessened? Is it gone? I always had a bit of trouble noticing it so it would be nice to have some input from everyone else who's more sensitive to this issue. I remember a that Vertekins made within the last month, and I noticed a few replies that I thought were quite rude. Reluctantly, I had to agree with a most of what people were saying but I didn't agree with how they were expressing it. But that's just me.

It surprised me that people were so busy being cynical that not only did they miss the entire point of the topic but did not provide any compelling counter-argument to each of my points, instead just stating how Sonic is not any more dimensional that the typical shonen hero without backing up such a post with evidence. I've even had one member PM me stating how they love the OP in that topic but were put-off even responding in it and forming their own post because of the attitudes prevalent within it, feeling that their post would be pounced-upon also. This was a PM coming from a perfectly rational forum-frequenter BTW. Comes to something doesn't it when an intelligent, rational and polite member is discouraged from contributing to a topic because of the prevalent tone?

First of all, I suggest everyone actually read how that thread actually progressed instead of taking these two posts at face value, but beyond that I'm going to say one thing: If someone is put off from posting in a thread because they don't want to express an opinion against the popular one, that really is their problem and not remotely under the purview of this thread. Because at that point you're asking the forum goers to keep from expressing their opinions to keep people from feeling bad. It's a shame that people are shy about expressing themselves against overwhelming dissent, but there's not really a lot you can expect the dissenters to do about it.

There was no animosity in that thread until people started claiming that everyone who was being cynical was missing the point, which is when everyone started getting snippy at each other for a page or two. Being cynical in response to extreme optimism isn't animosity. Not breaking apart an OP piece by piece and responding to it in a broad capacity instead is not animosity. I personally went far, far out of my way to try to be polite about the issues with that thread as it was initially presented; far more than I ordinarily worry about doing when a thread that I similarly disagree with comes up. Most of the people who disagreed with the OP even rallied around Verte when the sentiment of "why should anyone even care" came up.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Tornado

[Frogging101]

I'm also going to comment on one thing:First of all, I suggest everyone actually read how that thread actually progressed instead of taking these two posts at face value, but beyond that I'm going to say one thing: If someone is put off from posting in a thread because they don't want to express an opinion against the popular one, that really is their problem and not remotely under the purview of this thread. Because at that point you're asking the forum goers to keep from expressing their opinions to keep people from feeling bad. It's a shame that people are shy about expressing themselves against overwhelming dissent, but there's not really a lot you can expect the dissenters to do about it.

There was no animosity in that thread until people started claiming that everyone who was being cynical was missing the point, which is when everyone started getting snippy at each other for a page or two. Being cynical in response to extreme optimism isn't animosity. Not breaking apart an OP piece by piece and responding to it in a broad capacity instead is not animosity. I personally went far, far out of my way to try to be polite about the issues with that thread as it was initially presented; far more than I ordinarily worry about doing when a thread that I similarly disagree with comes up. Most of the people who disagreed with the OP even rallied around Verte when the sentiment of "why should anyone even care" came up.

 

Yeah, I was talking more about what happened toward the end of the thread. That thread was not a great example, I agree. I used it though because it was the best way of finding an example without calling out a particular person's post. Most of the responses (yours are a good example of this) were fine. They were candid, but not insulting or sarcastic. But there were a few posts there that I thought were unnecessarily sarcastic and put down the original post without giving any good arguments as to why. I also used it partially because I know that other people were discouraged from posting in that thread, so I admit that I was kind of advocating for them a bit too. Sorry about that, I probably should have thought it through a bit more. Maybe someone else can chime in about that thread, someone who sees a bit more than I do. Anyway, a better example of what I'm talking about is that other post that Vertekins linked to on the previous page. 

Edited February 2, 2013 by Frogging101

[tenchibr]

It's a fine line to walk, I'm not even exactly sure what the middle ground is. We like the idea of a topic like this with members trying to take improving the forum into their own hands, but in the same instance just like the point you're making with your posts here...you have to be careful with how you phrase things.

 

Sometimes when you become too emotionally invested in something, it's very easy to cross the line and at some point, you have to realize if it's time you move on. It hurts me to say this, but lately I have avoided threads like this one or basically anything that smells like disrespect in the air. I gotta say, it feels good and liberating to let go, to know that instead of feeding fuel to the fire, I can just live and let live.

[novelty]

This topic got me thinking for a bit.

 

Can the Report system be abused? Will it cause any mod ignorance towards those abusing the report system?

[Diz]

When something is reported, moderators try to investigate the situation as a whole.

 

As a recent example, nine reports were active at the time and the situation was running out of control. Not being familiar with the situation, it was not easy to do something without having the grounds to do so. I ran a test revealing one user registering and using multiple accounts, one of the biggest offenses on the SSMB. Banning on the grounds of that bought me time and opportunity to investigate, take further action and purge the situation without worrying about doing something horribly wrong.

 

Sometimes a topic can go berserk and require immediate action, and quite often, a report is the gateway and focus for investigation. If something unfortunate really does happen, and if the staff for some reason is not picking up on it after handling the situation, please contact the moderator in question or an admin.

 

Also note that when something is reported, moderators may not always take action, so do not be afraid to report something if you feel it only might require attention. Reports can also be made if you think a situation might become out of hand at a later point or even if you feel that something is not right. Moderators will look through the report and sometimes act individually - What some moderators sometimes do not see fit to handle, others might~

[Mitt Romney]

Nationally, 52% hate me and 48% can tolerate me.  I would think those numbers translate to here as well.