Should the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise have more rounded female characters?

[azoo]

Well she's got sexuality there that's quite a bit more tasteful than Rouge. She has a skimpy dress sure but that's hardly anything to cry about.

Something tells me you don't know that character very well, do you.

Either way, yeah, archetype etc etc. Could Rouge be more tastefully done? Yeah, but then again all the characters could. They're so flat in personality most of the time that they all kind of deserve more than what they got. Not sure why we have to focus on Rouge of all of them to make that statement, though.

[Bright Eyes]

You're argument here boils down to "I don't like men wanting to see sexy female characters". It's that kind of attitude that ended up being a part of the feminist Sex Wars in the first place.

No it's not. My argument is that I don't want men to see sexy female characters that have dreamed up by rich men in a company who are being lazy and are relying on cliche. Can't you see the difference?

[Dr. Homem]

But you can't pretend that Amy isn't fitting into a stereotype. She is fitting into the stereotype of the clingy and dependable woman (the clingy girlfriend for example).

I never did. Look at my earlier post: she is an exaggerated form of it in some incarnations. But notice her in Unleashed, for example. Things are getting better.

My point is that you think the very concept is the stereotype. It's excessive use is, but by itself, dependency isn't a bad thing in writing.

No it's not. My argument is that I don't want men to see sexy female characters that have dreamed up by rich men in a company who are being lazy and are relying on cliche. Can't you see the difference?

But Rouge isn't relying on cliche. We've rounded that argument up already. It's part of her character.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Homem

[Andrew Albacia]

Well she's got sexuality there that's quite a bit more tasteful than Rouge. She has a skimpy dress sure but that's hardly anything to cry about.

Her gun is her knickers. Gainax. Go figure.

No it's not. My argument is that I don't want men to see sexy female characters that have dreamed up by rich men in a company who are being lazy and are relying on cliche. Can't you see the difference?

What changes would make Rouge acceptable?

[azoo]

I think the problem with your sentence there is that you're emphasizing on the word "men". I know, sexism and misogyny is a real issue and so is gender inequality (no really, it is) but it really isn't required to even think about that when talking about characters in a series about Sonic the flippin' hedgehog.

That said, I too am curious. What would you do to make her more tasteful?

Edited October 31, 2012 by Azukara

[Bright Eyes]

I never did. Look at my earlier post: she is an exaggerated form of it in some incarnations. But notice her in Unleashed, for example. Things are getting better.

My point is that you think the very concept is the stereotype. It's excessive use is, but by itself, dependency isn't a bad thing in writing.

I wouldn't mind if Amy was an overall depend person but she clearly isn't. Has she ever been dependent on anyone but Sonic? Her crush? Because I honestly can't think of a single example. Even if she did it is obviously an anomaly.

Her gun is her knickers. Gainax. Go figure.

What changes would make Rouge acceptable?

I find gun in knickers rather funny. I assume it's supposed to be funny.

As for Rouge, anything that isn't 'emphasise boobs' that is so dull and cliche. Literally, anything.

[hangarninetysix]

I don't get it. Are you offended by 1950's noir films as well? It's just the nature of the femme fatale and part of the character.

[Nepenthe]

It is automatically offensive when she's designed to shock and titillate because she is the first (and only major?) Sonic character who has her boobs emphasised. It's the main part of her character design.

For what other reason would you emphasize the breasts of a female character when they have an overwhelming sexual connotation anyway?

Someone here also made a good point: Rouge's design is sexualized, but in the actual storylines it's one of the most downplayed parts of her character. She readily involves herself in conflict in which her opponent(s) have taken her as a serious threat on par with any male characters in a similar role, she has been a team lead on more than one occasion even when her comrades have been significantly physically stronger than her, and she has been a steadfast ally to a major male character who appreciates her company and loyalty without any kind of romantic or sexual inclinations towards her. Dare I say Rouge is actually one of the few sexual female characters done right; she can certainly use her wiles when she wants to, but it is far from the point of her character when you actually bother to engage in the stories that she's in.

Huh; now I appreciate this character a little more.

[JezMM]

Seriously. Rouge shows a bit of cleavage. That is nothing.

As for responding to the last direct post you responded to me with, Homem said what I wanted to and far better than I'd be able to articulate it, so yeah.

But bare in mind I'm the kind of person who thinks sexy characters is totally fine as long as the men and women get at least comparable treatment. Sex is fun and should be celebrated. Though uhh... obviously Rouge is about the limit for an all-ages series.

I also never understand the obsession with independance. I'm feel pretty damn dependant on my fiancée so am I now a badly written character or a bad person? I'd rather see Amy written to either treat her dependance as a known flaw, or show that while maybe she LIKES to be dependant on Sonic, she can be independant in other things at other moments.

Which she has done. See her confrontation with Silver in 2006 as the best example of this.

[Bright Eyes]

I don't get it. Are you offended by 1950's noir films as well? It's just the nature of the femme fatale and part of the character.

1950s film noir femme fatales have much better designs than Rouge and you know it.

[Dr. Homem]

You're not proving your point by repeating the same argument for three pages, you know

Edited October 31, 2012 by Homem

[Aquaslash]

Well she's got sexuality there that's quite a bit more tasteful than Rouge. She has a skimpy dress sure but that's hardly anything to cry about.

Ok, let me break it down for you:

• Her name is Anarchy Panty
  
• She readies herself for battle by doing a strip tease dance, and then taking her panties off. Said panties turn into a pistol
  
• All she ever wants to do is have sex
  
• She had the goal of having sex with 1,000 partners before she went home
  
• She actually accomplished said goal
  
• Her mouth would make a sailor blush, and she overall has a really bad attitude
  

Yet despite all of that, she's actually an unbelievably capable fighter, and was probably the most developed character in the show. Sexuality in fictional characters isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on the execution.

[hangarninetysix]

1950s film noir femme fatales have much better designs than Rouge and you know it.

Most do. But how is a badly designed character offensive? I agree with you that Rouge is a pretty lame addition. I'm just not outraged by it.

[Blackthorne]

I just said they weren't masculine and feminine! That was the whole point of my post!

But you can't pretend that Amy isn't fitting into a stereotype. She is fitting into the stereotype of the clingy and dependable woman (the clingy girlfriend for example).

All of the characters fit into a stereotype.

Sonic is the hero, and he damn well knows it. He's cocky, but lovable. He ALWAYS saves the day, no matter what the odds.

Tails is the ever-faithful sidekick. He's always there for Sonic, and though he never gets the top billing, sometimes Sonic has to count on him to save the day.

Knuckles is the headstrong, macho guy. He's not afraid of anything except people seeing him in a moment of weakness.

Shadow's the typical '90's anti-hero. TV Tropes nailed that one better than I could here, so look it up and you'll see what I mean.

I could go on. Fact is, it's not just the female characters who are stereotypical.

[Bright Eyes]

You're not proving your point by repeating the same argument that has already been put to rest. I am aware that Amy is exaggerated despite stuff getting a bit better over time. I'm simply disproving your point that ANY dependence is bad.

How many times have I said the same thing in this thread?

How many times do I have to say the same thing: that she's designed to be a dependable cliched 'clingy woman' and not a dependable person!

Dependable person = can be well written, Cliched Clingy woman = Lazy cliched writing

All of the characters fit into a stereotype.

Sonic is the hero, and he damn well knows it. He's cocky, but lovable. He ALWAYS saves the day, no matter what the odds.

Tails is the ever-faithful sidekick. He's always there for Sonic, and though he never gets the top billing, sometimes Sonic has to count on him to save the day.

Knuckles is the headstrong, macho guy. He's not afraid of anything except people seeing him in a moment of weakness.

Shadow's the typical '90's anti-hero. TV Tropes nailed that one better than I could here, so look it up and you'll see what I mean.

I could go on. Fact is, it's not just the female characters who are stereotypical.

Well I agree with you, and I allude to this in my OP.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Bright Eyes

[Andrew Albacia]

I wouldn't mind if Amy was an overall depend person but she clearly isn't. Has she ever been dependent on anyone but Sonic? Her crush? Because I honestly can't think of a single example. Even if she did it is obviously an anomaly.

I find gun in knickers rather funny. I assume it's supposed to be funny.

As for Rouge, anything that isn't 'emphasise boobs' that is so dull and cliche. Literally, anything.

Something more like this?

[Bright Eyes]

Something more like this?

That's fine by me. It isn't demeaning.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No it's not. My argument is that I don't want men to see sexy female characters that have dreamed up by rich men in a company who are being lazy and are relying on cliche. Can't you see the difference?

That's practically the same thing. You're taking issue with men wanting to see sexy female characters of a cliche (which is the seductress archtype mind you) that has been used many many times before. You're taking offense with Rouge showing cleavage and acting the part she was meant to play, and that's just being petty. That's kinda why people are bringing up her character in the topic, the reason being that just because a character looks sexy doesn't mean she's going act like a girl wanting to have sex with anyone.

Yes, she wears a bodysuit that shows cleavage. What's wrong with that? How is that lazy? Because the issue I see here is that it's a problem that Rouge shows her cleavage and looks sexy. I mean, if you take issue with that, it's amazing that you don't take issue with other characters who play the archetype and are dressed provacatively.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Bright Eyes]

That's practically the same thing. You're taking issue with men wanting to see sexy female characters of a cliche (which is the seductress archtype mind you) that has been used many many times before. You're taking offense with Rouge showing cleavage, and that's just being petty. That's kinda why people are bringing up her character in the topic, the reason being that just because a character looks sexy doesn't mean she's going act like a girl wanting to have sex with anyone.

Yes, she wears a bodysuit that shows cleavage. What's wrong with that? How is that lazy? Because the issue I see here is that it's a problem that Rouge shows her cleavage and looks sexy.

It isn't showing cleavage. It's designing a character to draw attention to the boobs to shock and titillate that there is now a Sonic character that has boobs.

That is literally the extent of her design.

I don't even hate Rouge or anything. My post was just discussing her daft design choice.

I have more stick with a character like Amy.

[besides, I'll have to go off the conversation for a bit. I'm going to the kitchen to cook. It's funny because it's true ]

Edited October 31, 2012 by Bright Eyes

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It isn't showing cleavage. It's designing a character to draw attention to the boobs to shock and titillate that there is now a Sonic character that has boobs.

That would be her showing cleavage. Otherwise, her boobs wouldn't be much of a focus, now would they?

It's essentially like Ada Wong above showing her thighs for a similar appeal for the audience. You ask me, I'd say you're putting WAY too much focus into them. I mean, yeah, Sonic fans know that she has boobs, but they're not exactly being shocked and titillated in the same way as they would other series that put that kinda fanserivce into it.

Hell, by that logic, any female character that has hartman hips are doing the same thing regarding their lower body.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[JezMM]

How many times do I have to say the same thing: that she's designed to be a dependable cliched 'clingy woman' and not a dependable person!

In SA1 she rescues the birdy and family all by herself - even when kidnapped, Sonic isn't the one who rescues her.

In SA2 she gets to Prison Island by herself and frees Sonic with Tails' distraction. She gets kidnapped later on but that's mainly Sonic and Tails' fault for not even appreciating that she could have helped. Obviously during the ending, she helps Shadow remember Maria's true wish, intentionally or not, and she doesn't even have to become "strong and independant" to do it. She solves a problem with compassion and words.

In Heroes she is terribly written and fuel for your argument.

In Shadow she doesn't even interact with Sonic much but this isn't really an example of anything coz the characters are generally oddly written in this game.

In Riders she flirts with Sonic early on but instantly jumps to Tails' defense with genuine anger when Wave makes fun of him. After she is knocked out of the tournament, she continues to support Sonic without getting in his way, AND shows she won't let him disregard her during the ending when he attacks Eggman without (or at least feigning) concern for her safety. In the finale she tags along to battle the Genie with everyone else.

In 2006, as said, she puts herself in the way of Sonic when she learns Silver is trying to kill him, and utterly abandons Silver as a result of the incident, causing the start of Silver's questioning as to whether Mephiles can be trusted.

In Zero Gravity, she very very briefly flirts with Sonic jokingly and then gets straight down to business in appreciation of the gravity (no pun intended) of the situation.

In Unleashed she doesn't offer much other than support from the sidelines, but it's a pretty key moment - even if it is casually done in a text conversation - that she tells Sonic that she doesn't care if he turns into a monster at night, he's still her Sonic. This at least shows Amy has genuine affection for Sonic and she's not shallow.

In Black Knight she only has a tiny cameo, but again shows that she doesn't take any crap from Sonic despite her adoration for him.

In Free Riders they once again used her psychopathic Heroes' personality, for shame.

In Generations... ugh prolly not worth talking about this one either. Everyone was kinda just there.

So... no, Amy isn't a bad character, it's just no-one notices the good stuff.

Edited October 31, 2012 by JezMM

[Aquaslash]

I don't see an inherent problem with making characters overtly sexual, especially if there ends up much more to them than meets the eye. Also it seems my other post got lost in the shuffle.

Oh and it stands to be said that Rouge is unbelievably tame compared to other characters out there.

That last one is played by an ex porn star

Edited October 31, 2012 by Aqua Buster

[Mr. Taxi]

I'm pretty sure Bright Eyes means that the problem is not Rouge's cleveage but the lack of point in it. There is this trope of the sexy agent, but then again the sexiness is part of the character. It gives the impression of a mysterious, relentless woman who will use whatever she has at hand to reach her objectives, which in turn are also a mystery.

So the thing about Rouge is exactly "yeah, her suit shows cleveage. So what?". I mean, there is not a single time throughout the series in which this particular trait of hers isn't just for flavour. She never seduces anyone, she never uses this actual sexual appeal and therefore it looks displaced and cliched. She's not a "sexy agent", she's an "agent who happens to be sexy and just for the hell of it". It's lazy writing and characterization when you see the strings being pulled behind the puppet.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Andrew Albacia]

I'm pretty sure Bright Eyes means that the problem is not Rouge's cleveage but the lack of point in it. There is this trope of the sexy agent, but then again the sexiness is part of the character. It gives the impression of a mysterious, relentless woman who will use whatever she has at hand to reach her objectives, which in turn are also a mystery.

So the thing about Rouge is exactly "yeah, her suit shows cleveage. So what?". I mean, there is not a single time throughout the series in which this particular trait of hers isn't just for flavour. She never seduces anyone, she never uses this actual sexual appeal and therefore it looks displaced and cliched. She's not a "sexy agent", she's an "agent who happens to be sexy and just for the hell of it". It's lazy writing and characterization when you see the strings being pulled behind the puppet.

She kicks high.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm pretty sure Bright Eyes means that the problem is not Rouge's cleveage but the lack of point in it. There is this trope of the sexy agent, but then again the sexiness is part of the character. It gives the impression of a mysterious, relentless woman who will use whatever she has at hand to reach her objectives, which in turn are also a mystery.

So the thing about Rouge is exactly "yeah, her suit shows cleveage. So what?". I mean, there is not a single time throughout the series in which this particular trait of hers isn't just for flavour. She never seduces anyone, she never uses this actual sexual appeal and therefore it looks displaced and cliched. She's not a "sexy agent", she's an "agent who happens to be sexy and just for the hell of it". It's lazy writing and characterization when you see the strings being pulled behind the puppet.

Considering she's rather flirtatious at times and her voice is made to be rather sensual, yeah I'm pretty sure she fits into the archetype dude.

And besides, Bright Eyes wasn't considering characterization. Just the design. I'm telling her the design and character is part of the archetype she is made to fill.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic