Should the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise have more rounded female characters?

[Mr. Taxi]

And considering she just flirts because... it's somehow what she was going to do anyway, fitting the archetype isn't enough. It's almost as if she was a caricature.

EDIT:

And besides, Bright Eyes wasn't considering characterization. Just the design. I'm telling her the design and character is part of the archetype she is made to fill.

Well. In this case, I'll just have to shrug and say "fair enough".

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Aquaslash]

Well this is a PG series, she can only push that envelope but so much.

[Dr. Homem]

I'm pretty sure Bright Eyes means that the problem is not Rouge's cleveage but the lack of point in it. There is this trope of the sexy agent, but then again the sexiness is part of the character. It gives the impression of a mysterious, relentless woman who will use whatever she has at hand to reach her objectives, which in turn are also a mystery.

So the thing about Rouge is exactly "yeah, her suit shows cleveage. So what?". I mean, there is not a single time throughout the series in which this particular trait of hers isn't just for flavour. She never seduces anyone, she never uses this actual sexual appeal and therefore it looks displaced and cliched. She's not a "sexy agent", she's an "agent who happens to be sexy and just for the hell of it". It's lazy writing and characterization when you see the strings being pulled behind the puppet.

Good point, and I agree with you. However it's not really enough of a reason for such dislike of it.

Yeah, fuck off. No, really. I cannot believe there is such a thing as a 'sexualized' Sonic character but there does appear to be so because I'm looking at her!

That's just pettyness. Yeah, her boobs serve no purpose, but so do many elements in Sonic and other media. Yet there's no real problem with that lack of point.

[Nepenthe]

Palas, you just noted that one of the characteristics of a femme fatale is that she will use whatever she has at her disposal to achieve her goals. I'm not exactly sure how this doesn't fit Rouge's actual personality to a T, even if she's never been inclined to use her attractiveness as a tool with which to do so (which is false; she's done so in the games and Sonic X already).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And considering she just flirts because... it's somehow what she was going to do anyway, fitting the archetype isn't enough. It's almost as if she was a caricature.

Same could be said of other characters in children's shows and games. That doesn't underscore the fact that she was made for a specific archetype with those very traits.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Aquaslash]

Honestly, since every other female in the games is rather flat chested, Rouge is actually pretty refreshing from a design standpoint.

But man, all these problems over Rouge, I hope you don't pick up any Archie Sonic that was drawn by Steven Butler XD

[Mr. Taxi]

Palas, you just noted that one of the characteristics of a femme fatale is that she will use whatever she has at her disposal to achieve her goals. I'm not exactly sure how this doesn't fit Rouge's actual personality to a T, even if she's never been inclined to use her attractiveness as a tool with which to do so (which is false; she's done so in the games and Sonic X already).

That's because it only works when the character in question does something actually mischievous. If she tells the heroes she is going to help them but just for her own reasons, well, alright, that's a point. That happened in Sonic Battle. But whatever, d'you know what I mean? It's only when she does something morally wrong that the "oh, so she will do anything" factor will strike the audience, and I honestly can't remember that happening.

EDIT: And the game desperatly wanting to rub on your face the fact that she is sided with the villains is not... really... convincing. It's a start, sure, but honestly, Rouge has more "saving grace" moments than actual sins.

Same could be said of other characters in children's shows and games. That doesn't underscore the fact that she was made for a specific archetype with those very traits.

Well, sure, but then why are you going for something you won't be able to use fully anyway?

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Rusty Spy]

And besides, Bright Eyes wasn't considering characterization. Just the design. I'm telling her the design and character is part of the archetype she is made to fill.

I would also like to point out that by ignoring the character behind the design and focusing solely on the design, she is being just as demeaning to the character as the people she is condemning for making her and reacting to her looks.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Rusty Spy

[JezMM]

Honestly, since every other female in the games is rather flat chested, Rouge is actually pretty refreshing from a design standpoint.

Well, Blaze does have boobs so it's not like Rouge is the only female with 'em. Just that they're bigger and more on display. I still don't see the problem with a bit of cleavage, and if the fact that they're big somehow means they are inherently sexier to you then... well you're being boobist aren't you.

Though to clarify I'm well aware that the designers were indeed being boobist when they made the choice to give her big 'uns.

[Nepenthe]

That's because it only works when the character in question does something actually mischievous. If she tells the heroes she is going to help them but just for her own reasons, well, alright, that's a point. That happened in Sonic Battle. But whatever, d'you know what I mean? It's only when she does something morally wrong that the "oh, so she will do anything" factor will strike the audience, and I honestly can't remember that happening.

But Rouge is a mischievous character. If she's not going it alone to try and steal treasure from someone like Eggman or Knuckles, she's using the people around her to do so for her. Free Riders is of particular note, as she was willing to leave her robot comrade to break down despite him asking for assistance when she believed they had won the tournament and could take the prize money and be on her merry way. Beyond Shadow and mayhaps Omega, Rouge doesn't seem to give two shits about anybody else and has made this known through her actions on more than one occasion. xP But more pertinent: if you were writing her, how would you have her act?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, sure, but then why are you going for something you won't be able to use fully anyway?

To fit the archetype.

And even then, not every character fits it to a T. Shadow's an anti-hero for example, but nowadays he's been teetering towards being a full blown hero than an morally ambiguous one. Not every archetype requires you to fully use everything. Metal Sonic is the doppleganger, but he's tried to do more than just compete with Sonic on his own level. Tails is a sidekick, but even he ends up striking out on his own.

Generally speaking, a femme fatale is a character who is a seductress, but isn't overly sexual in her advances. Rouge is exactly that kind of character; yes she is sexy, but she doesn't use her sexiness to get what she wants, but rather more her feminity and sensuality. Each of which are different things with overlap to them.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Emmett L. Brown]

For what other reason would you emphasize the breasts of a female character when they have an overwhelming sexual connotation anyway?

Someone here also made a good point: Rouge's design is sexualized, but in the actual storylines it's one of the most downplayed parts of her character. She readily involves herself in conflict in which her opponent(s) have taken her as a serious threat on par with any male characters in a similar role, she has been a team lead on more than one occasion even when her comrades have been significantly physically stronger than her, and she has been a steadfast ally to a major male character who appreciates her company and loyalty without any kind of romantic or sexual inclinations towards her. Dare I say Rouge is actually one of the few sexual female characters done right; she can certainly use her wiles when she wants to, but it is far from the point of her character when you actually bother to engage in the stories that she's in.

Huh; now I appreciate this character a little more.

I know we're way past this part in the thread, but I just have to say that posts like this really make my day. Normally I go in to a thread to learn others viewpoints and then add my own to the mix. It's a rare delight when someone brings up a way of looking at a subject that changes my own perspective.

I, too, now appreciate this character a little more.

[Aquaslash]

Well, Blaze does have boobs so it's not like Rouge is the only female with 'em. Just that they're bigger and more on display. I still don't see the problem with a bit of cleavage, and if the fact that they're big somehow means they are inherently sexier to you then... well you're being boobist aren't you.

Though to clarify I'm well aware that the designers were indeed being boobist when they made the choice to give her big 'uns.

Heh heh. We do have Blaze and Wave, but they're on the small side. After all, there was that discarded bit about Blaze being so pissed off about being near flat chested that mentioning it was a sure fire way to get burned. Pun intended. =P

I kinda wish they could use that at some point too. It'd be so hilariously awkward

*character is on fire*

>Oh jeez, what happened to her?

>She went on about Blaze's little titties again

>DA FUCK'D YOU JUST SAY?

>...Uh oh

Edited October 31, 2012 by Aqua Buster

[Mr. Taxi]

But Rouge is a mischievous character. If she's not going it alone to try and steal treasure from someone like Eggman or Knuckles, she's using the people around her to do so for her. Free Riders is of particular note, as she was willing to leave her robot comrade to break down despite him asking for assistance when she believed they had won the tournament and could take the prize money and be on her merry way. Beyond Shadow and mayhaps Omega, Rouge doesn't seem to give two shits about anybody else and has made this known through her actions on more than one occasion. xP But more pertinent: if you were writing her, how would you have her act?

I haven't played Free Riders and know too little of its story to tell, so I'll just take your word for it. That's a good moment, yes. But, uh, I don't think I'd have many good ideas regarding her writing. I know for sure I'd give her more moments of bitchy actions with a charismatic attitude than charismatic actions with a bitchy attitude.

That, and have this controlling aspect of her more prominent. Yes, she knows the weak points in the other characters' psyché and how to blackmail, but that only truly shows in Sonic X and with Knuckles. I wish she did that more often and beyond the "I'LL HELP YOU IF YOU GIVE ME JEWELS" stuff.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I would also like to point out that by ignoring the character behind the design and focusing solely on the design, she is being just as demeaning to the character as the people she is condemning for making her and reacting to her looks.

To put it bluntly, that's called being "petty" as I've said before.

Or in another definition, it's judging a book by it's cover. You don't do that by itself. That's essentially taking issue with a woman being dressed in a two piece bikini and nothing more. Does she act in a way that is demeaning? Does she speak in a way that is demeaning?

There's more to it than just looks alone.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mr. Taxi]

To fit the archetype.

And even then, not every character fits it to a T. Shadow's an anti-hero for example, but nowadays he's been teetering towards being a full blown hero than an morally ambiguous one. Not every archetype requires you to fully use everything. Metal Sonic is the doppleganger, but he's tried to do more than just compete with Sonic on his own level. Tails is a sidekick, but even he ends up striking out on his own.

Generally speaking, a femme fatale is a character who is a seductress, but isn't overly sexual in her advances. Rouge is exactly that kind of character; yes she is sexy, but she doesn't use her sexiness to get what she wants, but rather more her feminity and sensuality. Each of which are different things with overlap to them.

Deconstruction, sir, is different from flanderization. If they were to deconstruct her archetype, like having her somehow get self-conscious of her sexy nature and be embarassed about it (leaving it implied that she acts that way only because it's all she has), that would be deconstruction. Tails being more than a sidekick at times is another example and, even if badly executed, so is Metal Sonic's overcoming his own doppelganger nature exactly in order to reaffirm it. Shadow's and Rouge's case is not so much of this as a blatant scream of "I can't use it fully so I'll try to tell you all the time that's the archetype they belong to".

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Andrew Albacia]

I'd fly into her freedom, if you know what I mean....

...is not something I hear often. Thankfully.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Andrew Albacia

[Aquaslash]

Honestly, Rouge's sexuality is so downplayed to the point where it's basically an informed attribute. She's really more of a conniving, thieving bitch that just happens to have tig ol bitties.

[Kuzu]

Honestly, Rouge's sexuality is so downplayed to the point where it's basically an informed attribute. She's really more of a conniving, thieving bitch that just happens to have tig ol bitties.

I wouldn't say it's informed because her design is very much Hotter & Sexier than any female before or after, but it's really not something overly emphasized like you said.

[Mr. Taxi]

...But that's exactly the point.

Well, alright, she speaks with a smooth voice and, for some obscure reason, there'll always be an acid jazz big band following her. The elements of the archetype are there, but not the substance. I'm not saying they should make her use her sexuality as if we suddenly were playing Nikita: The Game, but it would be really nice to have the smooth voice say smooth things every now and then. There's more to sexuality than sex.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Deconstruction, sir, is different from flanderization.

Neither deconstruction, nor flanderization, had anything to do with what I just said.

[Mr. Taxi]

So... I'm sorry for not seeing you're getting at. I'll reread your posts and get back to you in an instant.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So... I'm sorry for not seeing you're getting at. I'll reread your posts and get back to you in an instant.

No need. I'll put it forward right here.

What I'm saying is that while a character fits an archetype, they're not going to do everything in that archetype down the last trait.

A sidekick is one who supports the main hero, but there's nothing that says they can't strike out on their own and be a main hero themselves. Even more so for them to outdo the main hero, or even lead the main hero. Tails may not have done much outdoing, but there are moments when he takes lead despite being under Sonic's wing, such as his actions in SA2 when trying to stop the ARK from firing.

A doppelganger is essentially a copycat of the character, but said doppelganger can have some uniqueness to them that makes them do more than just copy the hero. Metal Sonic's role as the main villain in Heroes is an example of him going up and beyond that of his role as a doppelganger, whether it was actually decently done or not.

And a femme fatale in the archetype of the seductress, like Rouge, may be sexy in appearance, but that does not mean they will use said sexiness to get what they want. They may be content with flirting or doing things that have nothing to do with sexuality at all. You've seen Rouge flirt with other males, but that's it. She's still knows when business is business, and although she may turn back to help you if you are in a grave situation, she's not going to be one who will always use her looks to get what she wants.

And that's before we get into the deeper characterization that some of them at least (try to) have.

Edited October 31, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[- Eternal Paradox -]

You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with Rouge's outfit. I think there was a comparison with her and Bayonnetta a while back on the ASRT thread. I think this is an unfair comparison. Rouge in terms of design is a girl in a tube-top. Bayonnetta is stripper in full fetish spanex mode, cracking a whip yelling "Hey boys...."

...

I think Rouge is fine. There's nothing wrong with having a sexy character. And it's not like all the girls in the series are bouncing aroung in bikinis with plot-lines revolving around the entirity of an episode OF THEM BEING IN A BATH. Parents can act shocked about this, but Rouge isn't the first sexy cartoon character and she's not that sexy anyway. Sonic isn't just a kids show, and honestly, parents, do you cover your children's eyes when a woman in tube top walks by?

Anywoo, 'nough about Rouge. This coversation is interesting because my sister and I were sort of talking about it ealier.

The Sonic series has quite a diverse female cast actually:

Amy - she's the sterotypical girly-girl. She's a romantic, completely obsessed with Sonic, but that doesn't mean she takes garbage from anyone (even Sonic) and she can be quite dangerous when roused. She's an enhaustic go-getter (She doesn't wait for Sonic to come to her, She goes to sonic!), so don't try to get in her way!

Cream - Cream is the cute, inoccent little girl of the seires. She's never without her best chao buddy cheese. Cream is very polite, although she can be a bit cheeky at times, and she's not afraid to fight if she has to. When she's scared, she tries to be brave and overcome her fear.

Rouge - Rouge may just look like "some broad", but she's anything but. She's a cold caculating schemer who will do anything to get what she wants. She has an obsession with jewels, which can lead to confrontations with Knuckles. Rouge uses playful banter to distract her opponents - which when used on someone socially awkward like Knuckles, usally leads to her advantage.

Blaze - Blaze has a strong sense of responsibility. She is the guardian of the Sol emeralds, and she must protect them. She isn't so good with people, resorting to threats and demands, but Sonic has helped her to open her heart and mind a little to other people. (Sort of a female Shadow/Knuckles)

Blaargh. That was long.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Paradox

[Naysu]

Yes, she knows the weak points in the other characters' psyché and how to blackmail, but that only truly shows in Sonic X and with Knuckles. I wish she did that more often and beyond the "I'LL HELP YOU IF YOU GIVE ME JEWELS" stuff.

Completely agree with this. Rouge can bring out the personalities of other characters due to both her looks AND her personality. You may say that rouge is cliche' in her actions of flirting towards knuckles, but in doing so, she breaks the cliche' personality of Knuckles, showing a shy and nervous side to the supposedly tough as nails character.

I for one, loved seeing her mess with the other characters, without rouge, that side of knuckles just wouldn't have been explored in the games or Sonic x.

I really wish there were more character interaction in the latest games....