Should the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise have more rounded female characters?

[Aquaslash]

Anywoo, 'nough about Rouge. This coversation is interesting because my sister and I were sort of talking about it ealier.

The Sonic series has quite a diverse female cast actually:

Amy - she's the sterotypical girly-girl. She's a romantic, completely obsessed with Sonic, but that doesn't mean she takes garbage from anyone (even Sonic) and she can be quite dangerous when roused. She's an enhaustic go-getter (She doesn't wait for Sonic to come to her, She goes to sonic!), so don't try to get in her way!

Cream - Cream is the cute, inoccent little girl of the seires. She's never without her best chao buddy cheese. Cream is very polite, although she can be a bit cheeky at times, and she's not afraid to fight if she has to. When she's scared, she tries to be brave and overcome her fear.

Rouge - Rouge may just look like "some broad", but she's anything but. She's a cold caculating schemer who will do anything to get what she wants. She has an obsession with jewels, which can lead to confrontations with Knuckles. Rouge uses playful banter to distract her opponents - which when used on someone socially awkward like Knuckles, usally leads to her advantage.

Blaze - Blaze has a strong sense of responsibility. She is the guardian of the Sol emeralds, and she must protect them. She isn't so good with people, resorting to threats and demands, but Sonic has helped her to open her heart and mind a little to other people. (Sort of a female Shadow/Knuckles)

Blaargh. That was long.

Do Wave next =P

Edited October 31, 2012 by Aqua Buster

[Emmett L. Brown]

So is Wave topless or not?

[smogfog]

It's not surprising that Rouge looks rounded and acts seductive. She's 18 after all. She's a fully grown-up women, who wants to be attractive.

To their credit, Sonic Team do use Blaze the Cat a fair bit. She's actually a somewhat independent (unlike Amy), non ultra girly (unlike Cream) and non-sexualised (unlike Rouge) character which is somewhat amazing for a Sonic heroine! There is one problem I have with her though: she's a bit of a stereotypical strong almost feminist character. I have no problem with this, but she mostly seems to be all strength and little emotion (besides her death in 06 which was surprisingly well done and unless I'm missing out by not playing Rush).

As far as I know Blaze haven't died in 06, she was just teleported.

Why can't more Sonic characters be like this character?

Because Sonic Team was almost entirely fired after 2006-2007 Sonic games was told to be bad.

And then they hired a new Sonic Team, that made Unleashed and so on.

Edited October 31, 2012 by crystallize

[Mr. Taxi]

No need. I'll put it forward right here.

What I'm saying is that while a character fits an archetype, they're not going to do everything in that archetype down the last trait.

A sidekick is one who supports the main hero, but there's nothing that says they can't strike out on their own and be a main hero themselves. Even more so for them to outdo the main hero, or even lead the main hero. Tails may not have done much outdoing, but there are moments when he takes lead despite being under Sonic's wing, such as his actions in SA2 when trying to stop the ARK from firing.

A doppelganger is essentially a copycat of the character, but said doppelganger can have some uniqueness to them that makes them do more than just copy the hero. Metal Sonic's role as the main villain in Heroes is an example of him going up and beyond that of his role as a doppelganger, whether it was actually decently done or not.

And a femme fatale in the archetype of the seductress, like Rouge, may be sexy in appearance, but that does not mean they will use said sexiness to get what they want. They may be content with flirting or doing things that have nothing to do with sexuality at all. You've seen Rouge flirt with other males, but that's it. She's still knows when business is business, and although she may turn back to help you if you are in a grave situation, she's not going to be one who will always use her looks to get what she wants.

And that's before we get into the deeper characterization that some of them at least (try to) have.

Oh, in that regard, I completely agree with you. The archetype is just that - an archetype. A starting point. A guideline, not a rule. Still, I mantain my point that there are different ways to "not follow" the archetype and some of them tend... not to work.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Komodin]

Because Sonic Team was almost entirely fired after 2006-2007 Sonic games was told to be bad.

And then they hired a new Sonic Team, that made Unleashed and so on. New ST imo is a bunch of stupid after-university students, because they don't even know who Fang the Sniper is, for example.

... Okay, I must ask: is this really necessary?

[smogfog]

... Okay, I must ask: is this really necessary?

No...

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Do Wave next =P

*Eye twitches*

I can't think of that many positive things to say about Wave. Apart from the fact she's a good play off for Jet. She's sort of the second leader in a way: "In case I take charge, nothing ever gets done here!". She's smart, she has a ego issues like Jet, she's bossy and cruel to Tails, although Tails is quite friendly towards her and admires her as one sciencist to another. Other than that, nothing to say.

Because Sonic Team was almost entirely fired after 2006-2007 Sonic games was told to be bad.

And then they hired a new Sonic Team, that made Unleashed and so on. New ST imo is a bunch of stupid after-university students, because they don't even know who Fang the Sniper is, for example.

Im all regards to cannon, Fang is an obscure character who hasn't made that big an impact on Sonic lore. It's less of an impact than if they didn't know who Shadow(random example can't think of a better one don't kill me) was because he's had a big impact on the series and Sonic media in whole. And just because they're after-university means they're stupid - They're new and fresh and full of ideas. Most of them probably grew up with Sonic.

[Mr. Taxi]

Completely agree with this. Rouge can bring out the personalities of other characters due to both her looks AND her personality. You may say that rouge is cliche' in her actions of flirting towards knuckles, but in doing so, she breaks the cliche' personality of Knuckles, showing a shy and nervous side to the supposedly tough as nails character.

I for one, loved seeing her mess with the other characters, without rouge, that side of knuckles just wouldn't have been explored in the games or Sonic x.

I really wish there were more character interaction in the latest games....

Your statement made me realize: Rouge's and Shadow's relationship was severely affected by the fact that they were introduced in the same game. I don't even know if that is good or bad; it just came to me as a matter of course.

Well, since they were having their personalities built, they couldn't have one deconstruct each other so soon. With Knuckles, you had an already established personality that got a twist in Rouge's presence. But that's only because it was already solid. Shadow was only made immune to Rouge's flirting because, if they didn't, Shadow's entire personality would go to waste. Instead of "Shadow is a badass with a stoic personality - unless", it would be "Shadow is a badass with a stoic personality - oh, no wait. He isn't". And yet, they can't ever change their relationship in any way unless a strong enough external force comes into play, because the interactions are kind of actually the biggest signs of one's personality.

I don't even know what to make of this. Perhaps just a case of the needs becoming resources, I suppose?

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Multikaris]

The worst o e is that ugly evil pig Wave.

[Diogenes]

The worst o e is that ugly evil pig Wave.

dude if you're getting this mad about a minor character that's barely done anything you've got some fucking issues to work out

[Rally the Cheetah]

I'm pretty sure Bright Eyes means that the problem is not Rouge's cleveage but the lack of point in it. There is this trope of the sexy agent, but then again the sexiness is part of the character. It gives the impression of a mysterious, relentless woman who will use whatever she has at hand to reach her objectives, which in turn are also a mystery.

So the thing about Rouge is exactly "yeah, her suit shows cleveage. So what?". I mean, there is not a single time throughout the series in which this particular trait of hers isn't just for flavour. She never seduces anyone, she never uses this actual sexual appeal and therefore it looks displaced and cliched. She's not a "sexy agent", she's an "agent who happens to be sexy and just for the hell of it". It's lazy writing and characterization when you see the strings being pulled behind the puppet.

I sorta agree with this. I feel that Rouge was originally meant to be a sexual character for the guys to gawk at. She had boob physics, makeup, a very sexual design (in comparison to all other female character up to that point), heck Knuckles even calls her "Sexy" in the lyrics to Rock Canyon... Also lets not forget who she was teamed up with: . Yeah Shadow the bloody hedgehog. Now this character too can be argued as fan service but for the other gender. Seriously, before his return in Heroes he had many gals swooning over him and crying at the end when he "died". Also Rouge's ALWAYS teamed up with him, They are like the sexy duo of the series.

Now, looking at the argument of her character, it's this whole sexy duo thing that I feel is largely the problem. See, what we have is conflicting ideas here. As Palas pointed out her sexy body really serves her no purpose. Yeah, she's a flirt, but she doesn't seduce anyone. True if she did then the rating would likely have to go a notch but then if that's the case why make her sexy at all? Why not give her more of a design like Blaze where she's attractive but not over the top? Then there's her supposed personality. In SA2 she came off as being a strong willed and independent person. Heck her theme song was "Fly in the Freedom". Also she never asked for help, even when she needed it (getting locked in the vault). In fact that scene there shows her off pretty well. Yeah she failed and needed saving in the end but even though she knew she was gonna die she was more concerned about failing as a treasure hunter than her death. Yet despite being all business on the outside deep down she actually seemed a bit timid or at least awkward. This can be seen in the scene where Knuckles "saves" her from falling. For a brief moment she was taken aback but his actions. She quickly got over this by getting angry at the fact that he'd grabbed her. Still this scene shows she's not used to the idea of having help really doesn't know how to handle the idea. Finally there's the end scene where Sonic gives her Shadow's gold wrist band. She's really seems sad and is willing to show it rather than put up her strong front.

Now it's this independent personality I like for her, the problem is, it didn't last. Moving back to the duo thing, she's always being teamed up with Shadow. Now this wouldn't be such a bad thing if it were handled right, the issue is it isn't. Lets look at Heroes real quick, what's one of the first things Rouge does after releasing Shadow? She calls a truce and teams up with Shadow and Omega. YEAH.... This seems like a 180 from the Rouge we knew before. The once independent spy is now perfectly comfortable teaming up with 2 near strangers. Yeah she was teamed up with Shadow in SA2 but she never really worked with him. All their missions were independent. Now it's like "lets be friends everyone." Uh, no. Really no. The sad thing is her personally seems to go all over the place after this and at this point I really don't know what they are aiming for with her character anymore. In 06 she seemed pretty blah and was, well, largely overshadowed by Shadow. Same goes for her Shadow the hedgehog but that was sorta to be expected from the title and all. In Sonic Battle it seemed like they were bringing back her independent nature from SA2 but then started throwing in some more suggestive things like her nightclub in as well. Why does she own her own nightclub? What's the point? Also from the game one might assume she lives there, what with the "I'm home" line (or something along those lines). Also she leaves Shadow there when he's out cold so I guess there must be a bed or couch or something there. It would be odd to just have him on the floor or something. Also this brings up so many other questions like how she runs the place. I guess being a spy and treasure hunter/thief doesn't pay well enough? And that's another thing, how is one a government spy and jewel thief anyway? Yeah she said she was a treasure hunter in SA2 but being a hunter is different than being a thief. Hunter suggests she's good at tracking gems no matter where they are. Thief means she's good at stealing gems. So if she's a known jewel thief why does the government allow her to work as a spy? Is she like a mercenary or something? Do they not care or are somehow so incompetent they don't know of her hobby? It's so confusing. Also she becomes more a flirt after this with her "hi boys" lines and whatnot.

So... yeah.. after SA2 Rouge's characterization seems all over the place. From independent spy, to flirtatious thief, to little more than a amigo partner for Shadow. It's sad, she really seemed like she had potential.

[Skull Leader]

Why should only the females have to be rounded as characters? Why not both?

Personally I don't care if X or Y character fits a specific stereotype since that is just an archtype that works as a sort of guide of how the character would behave or act. It's when the character does stuff and when the resulting development sticks when the character takes shape, feels more believable and becomes a good character. (though likewise it can also not stick, which is normal since even we trip twice with the same stone, however it should not be overdone as it rubs off in the wrong way and gives the characters a bad perception. However if you also make them grow up to much as characters, you risk crossign a point were they become something different)

The current problem with the characters, the protagonist included, is that they are being written in a way where they are de-evolving to what was supposed to be a reference, becomming themselves one-dimensional stereotypes.

In SA1 she rescues the birdy and family all by herself - even when kidnapped, Sonic isn't the one who rescues her.

In SA2 she gets to Prison Island by herself and frees Sonic with Tails' distraction. She gets kidnapped later on but that's mainly Sonic and Tails' fault for not even appreciating that she could have helped. Obviously during the ending, she helps Shadow remember Maria's true wish, intentionally or not, and she doesn't even have to become "strong and independant" to do it. She solves a problem with compassion and words.

In Heroes she is terribly written and fuel for your argument.

In Shadow she doesn't even interact with Sonic much but this isn't really an example of anything coz the characters are generally oddly written in this game.

In Riders she flirts with Sonic early on but instantly jumps to Tails' defense with genuine anger when Wave makes fun of him. After she is knocked out of the tournament, she continues to support Sonic without getting in his way, AND shows she won't let him disregard her during the ending when he attacks Eggman without (or at least feigning) concern for her safety. In the finale she tags along to battle the Genie with everyone else.

In 2006, as said, she puts herself in the way of Sonic when she learns Silver is trying to kill him, and utterly abandons Silver as a result of the incident, causing the start of Silver's questioning as to whether Mephiles can be trusted.

In Zero Gravity, she very very briefly flirts with Sonic jokingly and then gets straight down to business in appreciation of the gravity (no pun intended) of the situation.

In Unleashed she doesn't offer much other than support from the sidelines, but it's a pretty key moment - even if it is casually done in a text conversation - that she tells Sonic that she doesn't care if he turns into a monster at night, he's still her Sonic. This at least shows Amy has genuine affection for Sonic and she's not shallow.

In Black Knight she only has a tiny cameo, but again shows that she doesn't take any crap from Sonic despite her adoration for him.

In Free Riders they once again used her psychopathic Heroes' personality, for shame.

In Generations... ugh prolly not worth talking about this one either. Everyone was kinda just there.

So... no, Amy isn't a bad character, it's just no-one notices the good stuff.

Along with Tails I always thought Amy was one of the most developed and well-rounded characters, but leaning more towards a more humane route where the character would have edearing moments where her redeeming aspects would show over the flaws, revealing that she genuinelly cares for others or that she is more than just a silly fangirl. I mean Sonic does the right thing because it's just right, while Amy does good things because of her compassion for others. Just compare Sonic in the Black Knight, mentioning how he does not mind playing the bad guy next to the Amy from the Adventures and 06 games and you'll see how both characters have different morals that share a similar goal.

What I found interesting is that she, despite being a relatively normal girl, would jump into situations that are beyond her and still manage to have an impact, whether it was on other characters who would question their motives after witnessing her actions (because unlike Cream who endears solely on being cute, Amy did because of what she did and said) like how she protected the little bird despite her having nothing to gain, or by triggering events that changes the tide of things, like in 06 where saving Sonic from Silver prevented a premature armageddon. Really I don't know how can she be considered by many as weak or dependant when Amy has done a lot of things without needing others or solved conflicts without using violence, like in SA2 where she does what Sonic could never achieve: defeat Shadow's intent by speaking words that left an impression, just like she would with Silver later on, as well as being capable of standing up even to Sonic if she feels he's doing or about to do something wrong, like defending Gamma, which also shows she's no shallow fangirl, otherwise she would had cheered for Sonic to scrap him. Personally I think that it's because people are still not ready to accept femenine characters that act femenine, instead wanting them to be more like the guys, a thing that defeats the whole purpose of having a female character.

With her what keeps her from being a truly well-rounded character is first the writting: To me it pains to see whom I consider to be the most humane character with the biggest heart be reduced to a charicature of her former self due to ST's lack of interest in doing or trying something interesting while switching the writting teams or styles from game to game. Basically, inconsistency in her portrayal and disregarding her development obtained from Adventure 1, 2, Heroes, 06 and Unleashed that made her go from a damsel to a self-sustained action girl.

The other is the one that as you said, her actions go unnoticed, mostly because her story contributions depend on people understanding context. Then there's how Amy is in the middle of Tails and Knuckles on one side that does not accept her as a classic character or as part of the core cast (even when she makes more sense than Knuckles), and Shadow, Blaze and Silver on the other because she does not have superpowers nor plot devices to elevate her importance, ignoring that she be that by triggering events or make a difference in other's lives, similar to Sonic (but more based on understanding). Even when the opportunity to use her presents itself, she is always displaced for someone else, like the re-release of CD, where the attention goes to the character being hyped for Episode II (were just on the gameplay aspect, she had much more to offer). There should be a better balance on how characters are used ecause the first step to improve them is to use them, and there are others that I also want to see provide their grain of salt like the Chaotix, who are also forgotten for most of the time.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I disagree about Rouge doing a 180 personality wise in Heroes. The team-up with Shadow and Omega is her idea, and she practically forces it on them. Even though Shadow is obviously the focus character of Team Dark, Rouge is the leader of the trio. She forms the team, she sets the objective, and she's the speaking lead in both the team battles.

[Urban Flow]

So Rouge looks like something that Team Ninja will make just cause she has boobs?

I was honestly gonna say the same thing xD

[batson]

I agree with the OP (and hey whaddaya know, yet again i find myself agreeing with the less popular of the opposing sides in the debate. Im starting to think i must be some kind of "siding with the underdog"-junkie)

Most major female characters in the series are are indeed problematic. Because while its true that the majority (or all) of the characters in the series are stereotypes, the problem with most female characters are that they are exclusively female stereotypes. As in, you certainly wont find many male characters all that similar in to Amy, Cream or Rouge. The cure for this problem would be to have more female characters who might still be stereotypes but who at least arent stereotypes that are exclusively reserved for the female gender. To take some examples of what these characters might be, we can just imagine this; a character who is exactly like Sonic, except female. Or a character who is exactly like Knuckles, except female. Or a character who is exactly like Eggman, except female (now that would be rare and interesting!). Obviously, the series doesnt need specifically another Sonic-, Knuckles- or Eggman-type character, but what i mean is just that we need more female characters who arent confined to female-exclusive stereotypes.

Edited October 31, 2012 by batson

[Nepenthe]

I dunno; this seems to hinge on the implication that there's something wrong with female stereotypes. It's perfectly okay for Amy to be a girly-girl, or for Cream to be innocent and sweet, or for Rouge to be a femme fatale, so long as these things don't completely dominate them to the point that they're nothing but cliches, which is something that should be avoided for characters in general.

[Dantemustdie00]

Here's my summary on Marine:

......

.....

.....

.....

.....

.....

STREWTH!

No seriously I love to here folks summaries on Marine, and other universe characters as well.

I'm talking about a mature summary too.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Dantemustdie00

[Mr. Taxi]

I dunno; this seems to hinge on the implication that there's something wrong with female stereotypes. It's perfectly okay for Amy to be a girly-girl, or for Cream to be innocent and sweet, or for Rouge to be a femme fatale, so long as these things don't completely dominate them to the point that they're nothing but cliches, which is something that should be avoided for characters in general.

I don't mind stereotypes as well. I do have a problem, though, when I find they are abandoned halfway through their build. I don't know, I can't help but see Rouge as a shell of the femme fatale archetype.

EDIT: Oh. I was taken by surprise when I saw Marine being mentioned. I didn't even remember she existed.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Palas

[Wraith]

I like Marine. She may not be badass, but she seemed like she was supposed to be Tails's counterpart, and she fit that role well.

Plus, I didn't find her nearly as annoying as anyone else did and I like how her character grew over the course of the game.

[tenchibr]

The reason why Rouge was sexed up is simple: they wanted to create a femme fatale kind of character, and making her sensual fit the bill. Have you ever seen an ugly nasty female secret agent?

I genuinely believe they were drawing inspirations off of James Bond films when they designed her, and it was not their direct intent to fanservice.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I agree with the OP (and hey whaddaya know, yet again i find myself agreeing with the less popular of the opposing sides in the debate. Im starting to think i must be some kind of "siding with the underdog"-junkie)

Most major female characters in the series are are indeed problematic. Because while its true that the majority (or all) of the characters in the series are stereotypes, the problem with most female characters are that they are exclusively female stereotypes. As in, you certainly wont find many male characters all that similar in to Amy, Cream or Rouge. The cure for this problem would be to have more female characters who might still be stereotypes but who at least arent stereotypes that are exclusively reserved for the female gender. To take some examples of what these characters might be, we can just imagine this; a character who is exactly like Sonic, except female. Or a character who is exactly like Knuckles, except female. Or a character who is exactly like Eggman, except female (now that would be rare and interesting!). Obviously, the series doesnt need specifically another Sonic-, Knuckles- or Eggman-type character, but what i mean is just that we need more female characters who arent confined to female-exclusive stereotypes.

In ten words, this reads: "Female characters should not ever be treated as female characters."

And really, for all your attempts at finding sexism here, you're actually being sexist in looking at the females in bad light here. And frankly, this isn't the problem. It's a matter of characters (both MALE and FEMALE) being rather blank and hollow and completely devoid of any decent characterization. You treat it as if it's a bad thing for Amy to be a preppy girl, Cream to be super polite, or Rouge to be a femme fatale when you guys should know better that even with the dip in writing quality there's far more to them than just that. You guys are only looking at this stuff on the surface, so how about you actually dive DEEPER than just one trait?

I don't mind stereotypes as well. I do have a problem, though, when I find they are abandoned halfway through their build. I don't know, I can't help but see Rouge as a shell of the femme fatale archetype.

I find it ironically sexist how you see a problem with females falling into female stereotypes as if that's somehow inferior to males being in their own stereotypes. Every character in this series have been abandoned halfway through their build. Now how in the blue hell is it that the female characters are being treated as if their getting the shit treatment in this series when everyone has been put through the shitter?

Edited November 1, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

Let us dive deeper into the female characters!

I found a blog of a sonic fanfiction writer who admits all Sonic fanfiction is horrible. But I think his take on Amy Rose is very good. And here is a paragraph about Amy that I think sums her up nicely.

So getting back to that breakdown, Amy Rose is an energetic character in every sense of the word. She is highly emotional, and that isn’t a bad thing. Her moods can swing from love-drunk to violent-drunk in an instant, to say the least. Highly devoted to Sonic and his causes, but can and will be independent for her own sake and for the sake of her friends. She is a kind person, loving, and can be thoughtful at times. She has a huge heart and isn’t afraid to show it. Amy doesn’t like to reign in her emotions when she’s riled up, but she can be calm and collected. She can – get ready for this – get frustrated with Sonic at times. Amy is able to hold her own in battle and if you want to take anything from SA2′s Battle mode, can hold her own with the boys to a degree. It can be said that she has some sort of connection with magic or more likely Chaos Energy because of the huge mallet she whips up out of nowhere, the Piko Piko Hammer (named for the sound it makes when hitting anything). The Sonic CD manual says she can read tarot cards (this was used to an extent in a story I read, but while that was interesting the rest of the story wasn’t even close) so it implies that she has psychic potential. Her strength is legendary along with her temper, she’s quick enough to chase Sonic around, and is a frequent target of Eggman. The only non-villain character she has a problem with is Rouge, at least to a point. Amy is able to make deductions and can read people fairly well.

http://howlingsuperc...ly-of-amy-rose/

Edited November 1, 2012 by Dejablue

[Your Vest Friend]

I'd extend the non-villain bit to basically anyone who bullies on Tails or Cream as well, since she seems quite sisterly and protective of the both of them (even though Tails can handle himself pretty well), although Rouge is portrayed as a more consistent "rival" (using the term loosely).

Edited November 1, 2012 by VEDJ-F

[HippyAmy]

For those who think that Rouge is unique for being a sexy cartoon character...

[Dejablue]

And people wonder why furries.