Should the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise have more rounded female characters?

[batson]

In ten words, this reads: "Female characters should not ever be treated as female characters."

Wrong, but in sixteen words it reads "Not all female characters should have to belong to one of the comparatively few female character stereotypes" (and by "comparatively" i mean that there are a much greater number of stereotypes that male characters tend to belong to). And i dont see how the hell can anyone could disgaree with this. The only way to show the young girls of the world that they shouldnt have to be defined by their gender is to at the very least counterweigh all the female characters in pop culture who are based on exclusively female stereotypes with characters that arent.

Also it really wouldnt hurt if pop culture could feature more male characters with traditionally female personalities. The only way to ever create a world where people dont feel forced to confine themselves to gender roles is to start blurring the line between "what a woman should be" and "what a man should be". It might sound radical to some more conservative ears but its true.

Edited November 1, 2012 by batson

[Dejablue]

does sonic the hedgehog really need to be the forerunner of this? everyone is a stereotype. If you want positive females I dunno go look at stoopid ponies.

I agree with Supreme. The very fact that you think female stereotypes are inferior to male stereotypes reeks of sexism. Also why would I want a character who is just like Sonic but with breasts? That would be redundant. But anyway you're basically saying that Knuckles lousy characterization is better than Amy's lousy characterization because Amy has a vagina (figuratively speaking)

The only way a female can be cool is if she acts like a boy.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Dejablue

[Mr. Taxi]

I find it ironically sexist how you see a problem with females falling into female stereotypes as if that's somehow inferior to males being in their own stereotypes. Every character in this series have been abandoned halfway through their build. Now how in the blue hell is it that the female characters are being treated as if their getting the shit treatment in this series when everyone has been put through the shitter?

Now it is your turn to miss the point of what I've been talking about. The thread is about the female characters and I just said I don't mind Amy or Cream. I also don't mind the femme fatale. I mind Rouge not being able to deliver this archetype properly.

That, and Blaze hasn1t been abandoned halfway through the build of her image has an Action Girl who accomplishes her duties but is slightly upset about doint whatever she does.

[batson]

does sonic the hedgehog really need to be the forerunner of this?

The more pop culture works that are forerunners of this the better.

[batson]

I agree with Supreme. The very fact that you think female stereotypes are inferior to male stereotypes reeks of sexism. Also why would I want a character who is just like Sonic but with breasts? That would be redundant. But anyway you're basically saying that Knuckles lousy characterization is better than Amy's lousy characterization because Amy has a vagina (figuratively speaking)

The only way a female can be cool is if she acts like a boy.

Im not saying that female stereotypes are worse than male stereotypes but the problem is that there are much, much fewer female stereotypes, which implies that there are fewer ways to be a girl than to be a guy. The only way to counteract this is to allow more female characters to step out of the confines of female character stereotypes.

And like i said, this should work the other way around too; we should also have more male characters being based on traditionally female stereotypes.

And just to guard myself against being accused of something like "oh so you want all the male characters to act female and all the female ones to act male", no, that's not what im saying. But we need more male characters who act traditionally female than what we have now, and we need more female characters who act traditionally male than what we have now. That's the only way to show the people growing up today that they dont have to act a certain way based on whether or not thay have a Y-chromosome.

And like i said, it's got nothing to do with me thinking that female stereotypes are "worse" than male ones (because i really dont), so dont say again that i do. But in the best of worlds, what kind of person one choses to be has little or nothing to do with what biological sex one belongs to because one doesnt feel that one type of personality is better suited to that sex than any other. And part of what could help create this world is to have a culture where in works of fiction, whether a character belongs to what has traditionally been considered a stereotype belonging to a particular gender doesnt actually have anything to do with that characters biological sex. In other words, a culture where a character with Eggmans personality is about as likely to be female as to be male, and a character with Creams personality is about as likely to be male as to be female.

Edited November 1, 2012 by batson

[Alice Twilight]

Oh, hey Laura, it's me, Alice from SEGA forums

[Sarah Jane Smith]

While as a feminist I admit to being perturbed by "traditional" female stereotypes, simply for the fact that women are almost always portrayed in a few select ways, I don't think it's wrong for girls to have traditionally girly traits. Just balance them out. Amy is a decent example, actually. While she's clingy and needy, she's also badass and, to most characters, scary, with that giant hammer of hers.

But a huge problem lies in the females' importance to the series in comparison with the males'. Every female in the series, even Amy, plays a supporting role. I'd take a swing and say that the leading roles belong to Sonic, Tails, Eggman and possibly Knuckles (though not as much anymore).

Amy is not important. She chases Sonic around, providing comedic relief. She sometimes gets captured (Sonic CD) and rescued by the male. Other times she's running away (Sonic Adventure) from a threat, even though she has a GIANT HAMMER. And in Sonic Adventure 2 she mostly stands around, seeming out of place. Rare are the times when we see her kick any ass, except in "_____ fights Eggman" games like Sonic Advance, and that doesn't really count to me.

Rouge is the sexy one who occasionally provides insight or contributes to the story, but she's sidelined in both her major titles by Shadow; in SA2 Shadow got more plot importance due to being Sonic's "evil twin" with the mysterious/tragic past and his big scene in the ending, while in Heroes, Shadow was the leader of the group, not Rouge. She did contribute quite a bit in Sonic Adventure 2, I will admit, but after that she has pretty much been sitting in the sidelines. In addition, she had to be saved from falling by Knuckles even though she has WINGS.

As an aside, I find it funny that people complain about her cleavage when the entire male cast is naked.

I don't know enough about Blaze to comment on her, but from what I've seen she seems legitimately valuable, but under-utilized.

Cream was designed from the beginning as an "easy-mode" character. She's young to appeal to younger players, can fly and has a spammy attack (Sonic Advance 2), and is the first to be unlocked. She's also in the "easy" team in Sonic Heroes. She contributes barely anything to any of the games. Not to say I dislike her character; she's just unimportant.

Contrast these four females to the four leading males. Tails is a genius and an invaluable ally to Sonic; Knuckles, while basically a butt monkey now, has ties to the Emeralds and is a learned fighter and treasure hunter; Sonic and Eggman are the most important characters of all. And all four of them play huge roles in the series. If you removed Amy from the equation, what would we lose? Comedic relief and occasional, rare plot relevance? I'm pretty sure if we needed to have someone be kidnapped in Sonic CD and guard the Flicky in Sonic Adventure, SEGA could have easily put Tails in her place.

To sum up, the females' character traits aren't necessarily what's wrong with them; they simply need to be important to the story so they can have their chance to shine.

Edited November 1, 2012 by creepy cosmictruffle

[Skull Leader]

Let us dive deeper into the female characters!

I found a blog of a sonic fanfiction writer who admits all Sonic fanfiction is horrible. But I think his take on Amy Rose is very good. And here is a paragraph about Amy that I think sums her up nicely.

http://howlingsuperc...ly-of-amy-rose/

Kind of reminded somethng I found elsewhere:

I used to dislike Amy a lot because I kneejerked at her obsession with Sonic. Once I actually took the time to look past that and at who and what she really is… she’s an absolutely amazing character. And a ridiculously STRONG female character at that.

Sure, she chases a boy and is obsessed with a boy and wants to have a family with a pretty little house so she can be a housewife. You know what? That’s what I wanted out of life. A lot of very strong, very wonderful women want that. They’re the mothers of this world. They’re all those moms you hear about and read about and that make you think about how awesome and strong your own mom might be. She’s not a horrible character for wanting that, just like I wasn’t a horrible person for wanting it, myself. I hear all the time about how awesome a mom I am. My friends -call- me mom because of that.

So why hate on Amy for the same things? She’s strong, she’s courageous, she’s loyal, she’s dedicated and she’s incredibly loving. Don’t be blinded by her over eager crush. Don’t penalize her for wanting to be a good wife and mother someday. Like her even more because of these things. If you can wave a flag for Sailor Moon for kicking ass with her classically sparkly hearts and love girl powers, why can’t you learn to appreciate the pink hedgehog who likes pretty clothes, who wants to raise a happy family and can still kick your fucking ass if you try to hurt them or this world?

I think part of why Amy gets some flak is because she's not aiming for an "important, higher than life" role in the future, as if that was the only thing that matters, or satanizing the role of females that want to become that as if it was some kind of negative stereotype, which IMO isn't because not many have the strength to put others happiness and well being before their very own.

I don't mind stereotypes as well. I do have a problem, though, when I find they are abandoned halfway through their build.

That's probably one of the most annoying things that can happen when the characters are reaching an interesting point. The two examples that come to mind are Tails and Amy: the first made some progress in Sonic Adventure by gaining trust in himself, but SA2 was where he really reached his highest as a character who instead of relying on copying Sonic, he used his gifted intelligence to build his own unique way to fight and even went as far as taking point and plan a strategy to find and stop Eggman. The second had a more detailed development from her starting point of damsel all the way to where she was able to take care of herself and others by given a reason that woke an almost maternal instinct in her that provided a motivation to move on, triumph and make a promise. After a bit of a regression in SA2, she leveled up again in Heroes where she displayed another facet as a leader. 06 kind of brought her to full circle when she saved both the hero and the damsel along with showing a selfless side where she would be willing to give up her dream for a good cause. Really wanted to see what would be the next step with these two but saddly the plug was pulled for Tails in Heroes and for Amy later on. (I'd say in Unleashed but that game showed she was not as shallow as many call her, along with revealing her real motive to be with Sonic)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Wrong, but in sixteen words it reads "Not all female characters should have to belong to one of the comparatively few female character stereotypes" (and by "comparatively" i mean that there are a much greater number of stereotypes that male characters tend to belong to). And i dont see how the hell can anyone could disgaree with this. The only way to show the young girls of the world that they shouldnt have to be defined by their gender is to at the very least counterweigh all the female characters in pop culture who are based on exclusively female stereotypes with characters that arent.

Also it really wouldnt hurt if pop culture could feature more male characters with traditionally female personalities. The only way to ever create a world where people dont feel forced to confine themselves to gender roles is to start blurring the line between "what a woman should be" and "what a man should be". It might sound radical to some more conservative ears but its true.

See that's the problem I just laid out. You see Amy acting like a female character and you find it sexist as if they're treating her like "this is how a woman should be". No dude, that's not how you look at things. There's nothing wrong with whether a woman acts this or a male acts like that, it's only a problem when the female characters are treated as tho they are inferior in universe. Essentially, when they try to handle a problem, the male characters are like "No, you're a woman, you shouldn't be doing this."

None of the male characters do that tho. You wanna talk about bluring gender roles? Amy runs away from Zero like a little girl in SA, but that's because she was trying to protect a bird that she's after; she gets pissed off and out right fights the damn thing when it gets harmed. Rouge in SA2 takes on Knuckles the Echidna, the physically strongest character in the series, and neither one holds back any of their punches/kicks. Cream, for all her politeness, helps fight characters like Eggman and Metal Sonic when a little girl at the age of 6 has absolutely no goddamn business getting into combat like that.

Yeah, I think that for all the way that their treated "as a woman should be" they're doing actions that a lot of what "men should be" doing as well. The thing is that there's nothing wrong with the feminine compared to the masculine; there's nothing wrong with a female character being put in a typical gender role, but there is a problem when you make it out as one is superior to the other. For all their femininity, the female Sonic character generally capable of taking care of themselves when necessary, even when they can't it's not as if the male character are the only ones who need absolutely no help to get something done.

Now it is your turn to miss the point of what I've been talking about. The thread is about the female characters and I just said I don't mind Amy or Cream. I also don't mind the femme fatale. I mind Rouge not being able to deliver this archetype properly.

That, and Blaze hasn1t been abandoned halfway through the build of her image has an Action Girl who accomplishes her duties but is slightly upset about doint whatever she does.

That's the thing. You see more of an issue with female characters like Rouge not being able to deliver her archetype properly, yet the males haven't delivered theirs properly either.

Now if you were just sticking to the topic and leaving the males out since although they're no better then the females they're not the point in the topic, then I'll concede. But if you're taking issue with how Sonic Team seem to be handling their female characters worse than their males, that's what I think is ironically sexist when the ground is completely neutral: they've both been handledly badly.

Edited November 1, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

See that's the problem I just laid out. You see Amy acting like a female character and you find it sexist as if they're treating her like "this is how a woman should be". No dude, that's not how you look at things. There's nothing wrong with whether a woman acts this or a male acts like that, it's only a problem when the female characters are treated as tho they are inferior in universe.

Please go back and read what i wrote in my latest post (you know, latest except this), and you will see why i find the very idea of confining most female characters to some stereotypes and most male characters to other stereotypes to be problematic in itself. In short, i want to see a world where biological gender matters very little when it comes to how people chose to act, and one step to take in order to accomplish this is to start showing people (im thinking first and foremost of kids here, who are still impressionable and changeable) that there is no type of personality better suited for a female than for a male and vice-versa.

But like i said, you should read my last post again, i explain it in more lenght there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Please go back and read what i wrote in my latest post (you know, latest except this), and you will see why i find the very idea of confining most female characters to some stereotypes and most male characters to other stereotypes to be problematic in itself. In short, i want to see a world where biological gender matters very little when it comes to how people chose to act, and one step to take in order to accomplish this is to start showing people (im thinking first and foremost of kids here, who are still impressionable and changeable) that there is no type of personality better suited for a female than for a male and vice-versa.

Okay, now that I've read that, then there's another problem: you don't know about there being spear counterparts to a stereotype.

For every action guy, there's an action girl; For every Ms. Fanservice, there's Mr. Fanservice; for every King, there's a Queen, and so on and so forth.

It's not a matter of women having so few stereotypes compared to men because they really don't, because they have just as many of their own unique stereotypes separate from men as men do from women. It's a matter of which is the most interesting, and because generally the more action oriented stereotypes tend to have more of the wow factor and men tend to be associated with that, you're going to see a lot of people flock towards that than they would. But just putting females in male stereotypes doesn't cut it, you need to make them interesting. Men can be just as boring an uninteresting as men as women can be boring and uninteresting as women; subverting that by switching personalities and attitudes isn't going to make that better, because then you might run the risk of men and women being laughable and stupid switching roles like that in the eyes of the audience. You need to make them interesting and engaging and have the audience like them for who they are, whether they fall into a stereotype or not.

In other words, whether male or female, you need to make them actual 3-dimensional characters.

Edited November 1, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

Okay, now that I've read that, then there's another problem: you don't know about there being spear counterparts to a stereotype.

For every action guy, there's an action girl; For every Ms. Fanservice, there's Mr. Fanservice; for every King, there's a Queen, and so on and so forth.

It's not a matter of women having so few stereotypes compared to men because they really don't, because they have just as many of their own unique stereotypes separate from men as men do from women. It's a matter of which is the most interesting, and because generally the more action oriented stereotypes tend to have more of the wow factor and men tend to be associated with that, you're going to see a lot of people flock towards that than they would. But just putting females in male stereotypes doesn't cut it, you need to make them interesting. Men can be just as boring an uninteresting as men as women can be boring and uninteresting as women; subverting that by switching personalities and attitudes isn't going to make that better, because then you might run the risk of men and women being laughable and stupid switching roles like that in the eyes of the audience. You need to make them interesting and engaging and have the audience like them for who they are, whether they fall into a stereotype or not.

In other words, whether male or female, you need to make them actual 3-dimensional characters.

I want to particulalry comment on the bolded part. First of all, you are very right about what you said there. A piece of fiction released today that genuinely doesnt take biological sex into account at all when it places its characters in various stereotypes would be deemed laugable. Not only that, but it would also be deemed completely unrealistic. After all, generally speaking, men and women even in real life do act differently from each other (if only due to culture, not nature). If we for instance imagine a story in which the men are just as likely to put on high heels when going to a night out as the women are (a silly exmaple, but whatever), people would both laugh and roll their eyes at the story because it doesnt at all compute with reality in this regard.

So with this in mind, i certainly wont go as far as suggesting that neither Sonic nor any other piece of pop fiction that has any at all ambitions to be a mainstream hit should actually abandon gender stereotypes altogether. That is, not today. But if we ever want a future with complete and utter gender equallity and freedom from the chains of gender roles, it is my firm belief (and not just mine, i do want to stress that!) that the gender roles must be completely and utterly obliterated, and with them the gender-based stereotypes we see in fiction. Only when the world is finally here where no particular kind of personality is favored for one particular gender will people be truly free to be who they feel like. Females can then still chose to act in ways that in the old times would have been described as "feminine" but they are just as free to act in ways that would once have been described as "masculine", and it will be the same for males. Yes, the only way to break free is to break the mold. You cant stop now, lock and load. You cant stop now come on and rock and roll.

But like i said, that time is not here yet. But what we can do already today is start paving the way. And one of the many ways to help pave that way is for the creators of pop culture (pop culture being, as we all know, oh so influential to young and even not-so-young minds) to start showing us a few more female Eggmen and a few more male Cream's (lol male cream).

Edited November 1, 2012 by batson

[Nerfuffle]

I’d complain that the female characters tend to be the only ones with hormones, or at least distracted/controlled by them, (despite the fact that the entire cast is made up of teenagers), that they tend not to be as important to the story, tend not to accomplish as much or have important goals, that Amy and Rouge’s fashion sense look incredibly uncomfortable to wear and contribute to a style whiplash similar to why werehogs, guns, and swords feel out of place in the context presented. (I still suspect Rouge is homage to Honey Flash)

Aside from that, my problems with the characters aren’t really that they are offensive clichés but that they are portrayed in an irritating way just like the male characters. Maria's stay in the fridge has been buried and forgotten by the sands of plot, Amy the distaff counterpart got a haircut, and Elise isn't in another castle.

[Mr. Taxi]

That's the thing. You see more of an issue with female characters like Rouge not being able to deliver her archetype properly, yet the males haven't delivered theirs properly either.

Now if you were just sticking to the topic and leaving the males out since although they're no better then the females they're not the point in the topic, then I'll concede. But if you're taking issue with how Sonic Team seem to be handling their female characters worse than their males, that's what I think is ironically sexist when the ground is completely neutral: they've both been handledly badly.

...What

I haven't even mentioned the male characters. In fact, I haven't even mentioned other female characters as well. If anything, I said Tails and Metal Sonic provide somewhat good examples of deconstruction, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are males. See, I'd appreciate if Rouge's sexuality was downplayed - but as a plot point instead of a matter of course. I really don't mind the girly girl or the innocent child.

Moreover, I do realize the male characters suffer from the same problem. I even said so about Shadow. But I just wouldn't bother saying anything about him when he was not on subject.

[Kuzu]

I want to particulalry comment on the bolded part. First of all, you are very right about what you said there. A piece of fiction released today that genuinely doesnt take biological sex into account at all when it places its characters in various stereotypes would be deemed laugable. Not only that, but it would also be deemed completely unrealistic. After all, generally speaking, men and women even in real life do act differently from each other (if only due to culture, not nature). If we for instance imagine a story in which the men are just as likely to put on high heels when going to a night out as the women are (a silly exmaple, but whatever), people would both laugh and roll their eyes at the story because it doesnt at all compute with reality in this regard.

So with this in mind, i certainly wont go as far as suggesting that neither Sonic nor any other piece of pop fiction that has any at all ambitions to be a mainstream hit should actually abandon gender stereotypes altogether. That is, not today. But if we ever want a future with complete and utter gender equallity and freedom from the chains of gender roles, it is my firm belief (and not just mine, i do want to stress that!) that the gender roles must be completely and utterly obliterated, and with them the gender-based stereotypes we see in fiction. Only when the world is finally here where no particular kind of personality is favored for one particular gender will people be truly free to be who they feel like. Females can then still chose to act in ways that in the old times would have been described as "feminine" but they are just as free to act in ways that would once have been described as "masculine", and it will be the same for males. Yes, the only way to break free is to break the mold. You cant stop now, lock and load. You cant stop now come on and rock and roll.

But like i said, that time is not here yet. But what we can do already today is start paving the way. And one of the many ways to help pave that way is for the creators of pop culture (pop culture being, as we all know, oh so influential to young and even not-so-young minds) to start showing us a few more female Eggmen and a few more male Cream's (lol male cream).

Dude, you're talking about making a feminist movement, out of Sonic the Hedgehog, think about that for a second.

[WarioBone]

Boy, I sure hope this joke hasn't been made yet.

If by "more rounded female characters" you mean female characters with bigger breasts, then I am all for it.

/end of terrible joke

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, didn't I say we'd be best not to get into a debate about feminism in this series? (despite breaking that myself. lol)

[batson]

I'll admit that much of what i've said for the last couple of posts doesnt have anything much to do with the Sonic series in particular, instead being about culture in general, so i've probably derailed the topic to the point where i should just call it a quit. Im pretty tired of debating heavy stuff now anyway. I think i'll hang out at some of the less serious minded threads for a while.

[tenchibr]

Don't even get me started at the lack of representation on orientation... After all, you know there's a certain stereotype missing about females that we will NEVER see in the series.

[Kuzu]

Don't even get me started at the lack of representation on orientation... After all, you know there's a certain stereotype missing about females that we will NEVER see in the series.

Which is?

[tenchibr]

Which is?

A manly one, who feels like she was born in the wrong body. Every female will ALWAYS act "girly" to some extent.

[Dejablue]

Yeah and the Sonic series doesn't need a transgendered character holy mother of fuck what is going on with you people today?

[WarioBone]

A manly one, who feels like she was born in the wrong body. Every female will ALWAYS act "girly" to some extent.

>implying that all series need a transgender character

[tenchibr]

>implying that all series need a transgender character

Not at all. It's just that I like Wave and I think there should be more females like her and I don't see it happening.

[WarioBone]

Not at all. It's just that I like Wave and I think there should be more females like her and I don't see it happening.

I honestly think you threw a lot of people with that "born in the wrong body" statement. :V I don't mind a non-girly girl, but one that would've rather been born a man is one of those issues that Sonic games probably shouldn't be covering.

(For more examples, see every fanfic ever.)