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IDW Sonic did take some time, but I feel like it's starting to grow its beard, if it hasn't already. Enough so that I'm glad I stuck with it. That said, while I've been enjoying the ride and been getting more or less what I expected, I do see why some think it's a bit slow to really get started, the more I think about it. Again, I got what I expected and am satisfied, but this is stuff I thought about.

That said, I heard extremely conflicting reports on its sales figures, so only time will tell if it's going to continue.

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On 10/24/18 at 1:39 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

What are those dimensions then?

Or rather the single dimension most of the cast has? Usually people say “one dimensional” without knowing what that actually means.

 

Doesn't One Dimensional just mean you know nothing about the character except their base personality?

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On 10/24/2018 at 7:39 PM, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

What are those dimensions then?

Or rather the single dimension most of the cast has? Usually people say “one dimensional” without knowing what that actually means.

Well... Tails for example is now more the smart guy character. Amy the typical girl character, Knuckles the typical dump muscle character, Sticks the one not crazy character, Shadow the typical evil rival guy, Espio the one dimensional ninja guy etc. 

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I feel like the Deadly Six get so much flak because PR builds them up as these supreme threats above Eggman, but in actuality they're just...boring.

No interesting motives or personality traits, just a bunch of generic tropes with no innovation to make them feel unique. 

So the fact they're the main villains just makes them grating.

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Same's true of Infinite, though, and while he's not exactly popular he doesn't seem to get the same level of bile.

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15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I feel like the Deadly Six get so much flak because PR builds them up as these supreme threats above Eggman, but in actuality they're just...boring.

No interesting motives or personality traits, just a bunch of generic tropes with no innovation to make them feel unique. 

So the fact they're the main villains just makes them grating.

The thing is that the games do the same thing with even duller and more generic villains, and unlike those, the Deadly Six are at least SUPPOSED to be kinda bumbling losers in areas. I mean Mephiles is set up as this ultimate sinister villain but his plot isn't even written to make sense. He's just a big Shadow shaped blob of evil and convolution that's supposed to be chess mastering.

Not that the Deadly Six are any more remarkable by that virtue but I don't see why they get exceptional flak over any of the games' other even more crappy villains.

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2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Same's true of Infinite, though, and while he's not exactly popular he doesn't seem to get the same level of bile.

There are two reasons I theorize.

1) He's edgy. That's always going to appeal to certain people, especially the younger demographic.

2) He's an actual anthro like the rest of the cast, so he has appeal to the furry community

 

Infinite, as shitty as he is, has overall design quirks that appeal to the most general Sonic fan. The Deadly Six have none of that, so you're just left with terrible characters. Aesthetics are a big part on why these characters are still so popular.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

The thing is that the games do the same thing with even duller and more generic villains, and unlike those, the Deadly Six are at least SUPPOSED to be kinda bumbling losers in areas. I mean Mephiles is set up as this ultimate sinister villain but his plot isn't even written to make sense. He's just a big Shadow shaped blob of evil and convolution that's supposed to be chess mastering.

Not that the Deadly Six are any more remarkable by that virtue but I don't see why they get exceptional flak over any of the games' other even more crappy villains.

Because aside from say, Black Doom or Erazor Djinn, no one of the other antagonists are really characters?

Chaos, Solaris, and Dark Gaia are more akin to forces of nature than actual sentient beings with the focus remaining on the important characters.

The Deadly Six clearly aren't in that category as they're fully realized characters, but they're boring.

 

And even so, is it not universally agreed that almost every non-Eggman villain sucks? The Deadly Six are hardly the first villains to be hated so there's no real distinction being made for them.

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2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I feel like the Deadly Six get so much flak because PR builds them up as these supreme threats above Eggman, but in actuality they're just...boring.

 

Did it? Because aside from the mention that the story would involved Sonic and Eggman teaming up, the Deadly Six were primarily marketed as their own thing.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Same's true of Infinite, though, and while he's not exactly popular he doesn't seem to get the same level of bile.

I thought the thing with Infinite was that he was willingly working FOR Eggman, unlike most of the other villains?

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2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

The thing is that the games do the same thing with even duller and more generic villains, and unlike those, the Deadly Six are at least SUPPOSED to be kinda bumbling losers in areas. I mean Mephiles is set up as this ultimate sinister villain but his plot isn't even written to make sense. He's just a big Shadow shaped blob of evil and convolution that's supposed to be chess mastering.

Not that the Deadly Six are any more remarkable by that virtue but I don't see why they get exceptional flak over any of the games' other even more crappy villains.

Because aside from say, Black Doom or Erazor Djinn, no one of the other antagonists are really characters?

Chaos, Solaris, and Dark Gaia are more akin to forces of nature than actual sentient beings with the focus remaining on the important characters.

The Deadly Six clearly aren't in that category as they're fully realized characters, but they're boring.

 

And even so, is it not universally agreed that almost every non-Eggman villain sucks? The Deadly Six are hardly the first villains to be hated so there's no real distinction being made for them.

1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

Did it? Because aside from the mention that the story would involved Sonic and Eggman teaming up, the Deadly Six were primarily marketed as their own thing.

 

My memory is hazy I admit, but fact remains they didn't really live up to their roles.

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15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

There are two reasons I theorize.

1) He's edgy. That's always going to appeal to certain people, especially the younger demographic.

 

Infinite, as shitty as he is, has overall design quirks that appeal to the most general Sonic fan. The Deadly Six have none of that, so you're just left with terrible characters. Aesthetics are a big part on why these characters are still so popular.

 

Uh, Zor.

15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Because aside from say, Black Doom or Erazor Djinn, no one of the other antagonists are really characters?

Chaos, Solaris, and Dark Gaia are more akin to forces of nature than actual sentient beings with the focus remaining on the important characters.

 

Chaos has backstory relating to it's emotional state and Solaris technically gets motivation through Mephiles.

I get what you mean, though.

15 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The Deadly Six clearly aren't in that category as they're fully realized characters, but they're boring.

 

Wait, I thought their problem was that they weren't very fleshed out or established?

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3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Doesn't One Dimensional just mean you know nothing about the character except their base personality?

No, it means you only know that character physiology—in other words, a character’s appearance and what they’re capable of. They’re essentially those random nameless characters in the background of a scene that are their to fill the world (think the Foaming Mouth Guy from Avatar the Last Airbender).

The source is from Lagos Egri who defined them in the Art of Dramatic Writing, but unless you plan to buy that book (it’s not much tbh) here’s a link explaining them. Will definitely help anytime someone talks of it.

3 hours ago, Rowl said:

Well... Tails for example is now more the smart guy character. Amy the typical girl character, Knuckles the typical dump muscle character, Sticks the one not crazy character, Shadow the typical evil rival guy, Espio the one dimensional ninja guy etc. 

But Tails, Amy, Knuckles, Sticks, Shadow, and Espio have more to them than just smarts, being a girl, dumb muscle, being crazy, an evil rival, and being a ninja.

What about their personalities and their mindsets? What about their history and how they grew up that led to them becoming how they are now? What about their abilities and how they use them?

Each of those are a dimension of a character—any character. And while like Sticks and Espio don’t have much in their history that’s all to fleshed out, others like Shadow and Knuckles do. And as such, Sticks and Espio are more two dimensional due to their history not being all that developed compared to their personalities and abilities, while Shadow and Knuckles are three dimensional for having very developed histories, which that shaped the other dimensions of their personalities and how they use their abilities.

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5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I thought the thing with Infinite was that he was willingly working FOR Eggman, unlike most of the other villains?

That...doesn't really make any difference in this comparison? He was still hyped up as some uber-badass villain, he still ended up being boring and generic and having basically no motivation.

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36 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Chaos has backstory relating to it's emotional state and Solaris technically gets motivation through Mephiles.

I get what you mean, though.

Yeah, with Chaos and Mephiles it kinda felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Having them merely a force of nature, but still kinda hyping them up as a meaningful character after all (it did feel like you were supposed to feel sentiment towards Chaos in the ending at least).

The Deadly Six, while not amazing villains, I felt like they at least halfway tried for the GAMES standards, in that they had basic personalities, designs that were diverse but still sort of connected with the Sonic aesthetics, and a role that did actually merge well into the story and have meaningful effect on the characters' roles (compared to many previous villains where they're just a generic threat or Eggman is actually still the bigger impetus due to doing all their grunt work). Sonic and Eggman actually interacted with them in terms of personality acknowledgements and they actually regimented their role in a way that allowed their characters to shine at least moderately. I know it's still basic stuff and had loads of flaws, but it's still a greater deal than the games and even many other interpretations of the franchise manage.

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15 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah, with Chaos and Mephiles it kinda felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Having them merely a force of nature, but still kinda hyping them up as a meaningful character after all (it did feel like you were supposed to feel sentiment towards Chaos in the ending at least).

I think Chaos is fine, actually. I think he's deliberately a "beast", driven by basic emotions, lacking the higher understanding of a human (or human equivalent) but not simply being a mindless force of nature. Just that unlike Mama Bear tearing off one guy's face for getting near her cubs, Chaos is supernaturally powerful and his anger wipes out entire civilizations.

Mephiles is total bullshit though.

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38 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah, with Chaos and Mephiles it kinda felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Having them merely a force of nature, but still kinda hyping them up as a meaningful character after all (it did feel like you were supposed to feel sentiment towards Chaos in the ending at least).

Chaos is fine. It's a force of nature, but it has actual motives for what it's doing and is ultimately quelled at the end of the game. Like the above said, it's more of a wild animal acting on basic instinct than anything else. A solid, if unremarkable character arc. Which is far more than what can be said about any of the Deadly Six. 

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I can cut Chaos some slack since it was the first 3D game with a full story and they likely still wanted Eggman centre stage. Even then though, I think SA1's main story was bogged down by how little Tikal and Chaos had distinct effect or chemistry with anyone, especially Knuckles. They could have easily been any other monster or mystical ally with zero connection to the echidna mythos.

I think this is another key point with the character debate, it doesn't matter how many dimensions a character has if nothing in the story or world they're in bounces off of it. They need to have a developed role in their universe and somehow compliment the rest of it. This is how we get problems in defining meaning to characters, like having another ally for Sonic that he treats like any other guy in the street, same stock upbeat quotes and all, or the hundred billionth villain that doesn't deviate from the 'rampaging monster that worfs Eggman' formula. The Deadly Six were at least a small improvement in that regard.

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But Chaos did that? It's literally directly connected with Knuckles` background and ties directly into the lore of the Emeralds. How is that not being connected to the setting? Especially because you're trying to tell me the Deadly Six are somehow more connected in that regard? In what way? How do they tie into the series and what do they even add to it that's meaningful?

If you prefer one over the other fine, but saying the Deadly Six are more connected to the series than Chaos is just blatantly untrue. 

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18 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But Chaos did that? It's literally directly connected with Knuckles` background and ties directly into the lore of the Emeralds. How is that not being connected to the setting? Especially because you're trying to tell me the Deadly Six are somehow more connected in that regard? In what way? How do they tie into the series and what do they even add to it that's meaningful?

If you prefer one over the other fine, but saying the Deadly Six are more connected to the series than Chaos is just blatantly untrue. 

The story I agree yes, but not in any way it seems to deeply effect the characters. Expanding on the echidna backstory did not radically alter anyone's outlook in a long or even short term way, even Knuckles (as Geek Critique accurately pinpointed his reaction to discovering what happened to his people first hand is 'Hmmm...this is very strange...' :P).

Deadly Six are the opposite since while they can be considered filler-ish villains, they were at least involved in a way that pivoted something of an attempt at a character study of the main cast of three (a pretty haphazardous one but still). As a result of their actions, Sonic got his impulsiveness and protectiveness of Tails limelighted from being put way out of his comfort zone with them, Eggman's calculating self preserving drive to be alpha villain mixed with his virtues and overconfidence from a more developed team up than against most previous usurping villains, and Tails aggravation towards being the middle man and later having to use his craftiness to turn the tables against them using him as a damsel in distress. All in all they felt like villains who maybe weren't nearly the most remarkable or important, but enforced a greater amount of new dynamics and emotions out of the main cast than usual to make them feel effective in their role.

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1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

But Chaos did that? It's literally directly connected with Knuckles` background and ties directly into the lore of the Emeralds. How is that not being connected to the setting?

It's technically connected, but it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of impact. Like, ok, SA's finished, Chaos is pacified, he and Tikal move on to the afterlife or whatever, and everyone goes their separate ways again...but what's changed? Specifically in connection to Chaos/Tikal/the ancient echidnas. Sonic saw an old mural, had some flashbacks, then fought a water dragon, but he's not really changed or personally challenged by any of it, it's just some stuff that happened (and it's kind of a shame that they made a villain out of one of his biggest weaknesses but never really go anywhere with that). Knuckles should have been hugely impacted by all this, but he just sort of bumbles through 3 flashbacks, barely even reacting to them, and the end of his story is basically "idgi. well whatever back to guardianin'." Every other characters has even less connection to the Chaos/Tikal stuff; they get a random nonsense flashback and maybe fight Chaos, who to them is just a big monster in their way. And the game explains a bit about Angel Island's past, but stops before it actually becomes Angel Island, so it ends up dodging basically all the questions you might've had from 3&K, like what actually made it start floating or how Knuckles became the last of his kind.

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16 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The story I agree yes, but not in any way it seems to deeply effect the characters. Expanding on the echidna backstory did not radically alter anyone's outlook in a long or even short term way, even Knuckles (as Geek Critique accurately pinpointed his reaction to discovering what happened to his people first hand is 'Hmmm...this is very strange...' :P).

Deadly Six are the opposite since while they can be considered filler-ish villains, they were at least involved in a way that pivoted something of an attempt at a character study of the main cast of three (a pretty haphazardous one but still). As a result of their actions, Sonic got his impulsiveness and protectiveness of Tails limelighted from being put way out of his comfort zone with them, Eggman's calculating self preserving nature mixed with his virtues and overconfidence from a more developed team up than against most previous usurping villains, and Tails aggravation towards being the middle man and later having to use his craftiness to turn the tables against them using him as a damsel in distress. All in all they felt like villains who maybe weren't nearly the most remarkable or important, but enforced a greater amount of new dynamics and emotions out of the main cast than usual to make them feel effective in their role.

Yeaaaa, no I'm not feeling it. All of what you said is technically true, but it's so poorly handled that I can't really give it any credit. Especially since all of that is by proxy and not a direct result of any meaningful dynamic or interactions between the cast and the Deadly Six themselves. You could literally replace them with any other generic villain from the past games and what you said would still apply, because it's happened before. The whole Chaos conflict spawned growth in Tails as well, and Amy, and Gamma. Shadow's entire character arc happens because of Black Doom, and he's actually directly tied to the latter due to being created by him.

I'm not going to really argue that the series handles these things really well, but I don't understand why we're giving the Deadly Six credit for things that have already been done in the past.

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's technically connected, but it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of impact. Like, ok, SA's finished, Chaos is pacified, he and Tikal move on to the afterlife or whatever, and everyone goes their separate ways again...but what's changed? Specifically in connection to Chaos/Tikal/the ancient echidnas. Sonic saw an old mural, had some flashbacks, then fought a water dragon, but he's not really changed or personally challenged by any of it, it's just some stuff that happened (and it's kind of a shame that they made a villain out of one of his biggest weaknesses but never really go anywhere with that). Knuckles should have been hugely impacted by all this, but he just sort of bumbles through 3 flashbacks, barely even reacting to them, and the end of his story is basically "idgi. well whatever back to guardianin'." Every other characters has even less connection to the Chaos/Tikal stuff; they get a random nonsense flashback and maybe fight Chaos, who to them is just a big monster in their way. And the game explains a bit about Angel Island's past, but stops before it actually becomes Angel Island, so it ends up dodging basically all the questions you might've had from 3&K, like what actually made it start floating or how Knuckles became the last of his kind.

Like I said, its wasn't handled well. What I'm trying to understand is how the Deadly Six are somehow better handled in this regard. If you like one over the other, fine. But strictly speaking in terms of quality of the writing, neither of them are particularly batting out of the park. If you're gonna cite "Sonic's personality is challenged", then why can't you count the characters that were affected by the whole Chaos incident? Including Tails, whom you seem to point out as being one of Lost World's stronger written characters. By this token shouldn't you count Tails character arc in Adventure as well?

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Well in Chaos' case, like I said, it's still mostly Eggman doing all the hard work, he's the one who releases Chaos, he's the one who tricks Sonic and Knuckles, he's the one who creates Gamma and causes his betrayal, he's the one who captures Amy, he's the one who threatens Station Square to inspire Tails. It's all largely to empower Chaos, but Eggman is the proactive character who enacts all of it. Literally the only character Chaos is anything more than a generic boss towards is Big due to possessing and capturing Froggy personally.

Black Doom was effective for Shadow, and next to no one else but the GUN Commander. Everyone else, Black Doom was another big baddie to join forces against.

The Deadly Six aren't incredible in that regard, but they do follow a similar proactive input as Eggman in SA1. I'm maybe more willing to give them credit because their particular instance was one of few times the games really developed on the original cast's vices. Sure Sonic being reckless and having a more vulnerable side is commonplace in Sonic media in general, but that depth was seldom spoken of in the games, at least not in a way that affected his depiction. Even in Unleashed, Sonic's cockiness against Eggman in the intro pivoting the whole plot was not called out in the story, thus the Deadly Six's role as foils felt at least slightly more developed. They made Sonic actually FEEL imperfect and helpless, something nearly no other villain beforehand had done, despite most of them arguably being far more formidable. Similarly rather than just 'worfing' Eggman and making him look like so last week's baddie, they had a game of oneuppsmanship against him, so still got to demonstrate his own role meaningfully.

Nothing said here debunks your point that the execution was poor but still it was a step for the games.

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And that's just it though; there is a key difference between the examples you posted just now. Namely in execution. In Adventure, its like you said, it's Eggman running the show and making the big plays and outsmarting the heroes. The heroes have to work harder and grow inwardly to overcome Eggman's machinations.  It leads to a lot of good growth in some characters and catharsis when Eggman is finally able to be satisfactorily defeated. 

 

Now Lost World, most of it's conflict is born out of the character's flaws, sure but mostly because the characters themselves act in ways that cause the conflict. Which would be 100% fine, I love a good story that explores the character flaws and has them overcome them to win the day. But Lost World doesn't do this...or rather, it does it really badly. Ok, so firstly the plot gets kick started when Sonic ignores Tails and sabotages Eggman's way of controlling the Zeti. Classic impulsive moment and Sonic screws up, cool. The thing is though, there's no payoff to this. Sonic never gets a moment to reflect on this screw up and makes up for it, in fact, he does it again later in the game. Which leads into the next thing; Tails, who suddenly starts blowing up at how Sonic trusts Eggman more than him even though him and Sonic had expressed absolute displeasure at working with the doctor a few cutscenes before. And ultimately, it's Sonic who has to learn the lesson of "trusting his friends", but what happened to overcoming his impulsiveness?

Also, note how I barely mentioned the Deadly Six, wanna know why? Because they barely factor into any of the above. They're not clever bad guys who exploit the heroes` flaws to their own ends, but they happen to get lucky that the characters are too busy arguing among themselves to actually do anything about them. That's what I mean when I say they're unremarkable; not just their characters but the fact that they do not have any meaningful moments of genuinely outsmarting and one=upping the heroes on their own merits like the aforementioned Eggman. It makes them feel less like cunning villains and more bad guys who just got lucky. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact Sonic did not get any moment to redeem his earlier screw up and continuously screws up to justify Tails being in the right in a conflict that wasn't really that well setup that well just sours the entire thing for me. 

 

The main difference between  how the older games handled stuff like this versus the newer games is that older games, conflict was born from outside problems like Eggman awakening some shit that Sonic has to stop rather than the more flawed way the characters are written now. And I don't mind the characters being flawed which breeds conflict, but it needs to be done in a way that still makes me wanna root for them and Lost World does not do this. Ironically enough, this is one of the few things Forces got down....with the Avatar and Infinite lol. 

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Fair play, but as said the games had little bulk to compare that to in the first place. Even in SA1 I felt like half the development was stilted and exposition heavy. Tails didn't really have a personality at all until his final showdown with Eggman, otherwise just sharing expo with Sonic and acting like a generic helper. I remember being intrigued with Lost World's writing since it was one of the few times in the games Tails was written with much in terms of quirks and some sort of unique characteristics instead of talking in generic exposition, even if the final result was all rather absurdly written. (I did like the brief scene where Tails was too engrossed by his tech to notice his Cubot monstrosity about to attack him however, with Sonic even scolding him, that was a unique take).

Knuckles has been frequently criticised for his 'gullibility' since it rarely attaches to any other facet of his standoffish personality and thus has come to be more a formula where if someone says Sonic is up to no good then he'll believe them for story conflict. Amy stood up for Birdie, but many argue the stakes in her story were so low that they diminished the idea of her becoming 'independent' (and it didn't stop SA2 making her a damsel in distress again). Sonic was pretty much a generic hero with the odd one liner. Big I suppose was okay for what it was, but not many liked that. Gamma's story was among the few that was fully fledged but some could consider it a 'cheater' since Gamma was a robot so even if it failed, blandness could be a personality in itself.

Everything in Lost Worlds was still a very primordial state, and most it tried other medias did way better (I feel like Boom successfully did a lot of things they AIMED for didn't quite get how to go about it, eg. Sonic and Tails having more foibles and a villain that manipulated them in an effective but comical way), but it was at least an experiment with extra depth after several games between that and SA1 that barely did anything and just let the cast get blander. 

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And all of those are fair points, and I even agree to an extent. But I still think it's handled well for what it was, and it makes me appreciate the characters more than Lost World ever will. I mean, there's a reason people still talk highly of those games almost two decades after their initial release and it can't just be simple nostalgia, otherwise the games would have just been obscured to time. 

So yea, is the storytelling in older games a little bland? Sure. But it's solid for what it does and is executed decently enough. And I would much rather that than actively disliking these characters after finishing a game like I did with Lost World. 

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49 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's technically connected, but it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of impact. Like, ok, SA's finished, Chaos is pacified, he and Tikal move on to the afterlife or whatever, and everyone goes their separate ways again...but what's changed? Specifically in connection to Chaos/Tikal/the ancient echidnas. Sonic saw an old mural, had some flashbacks, then fought a water dragon, but he's not really changed or personally challenged by any of it, it's just some stuff that happened (and it's kind of a shame that they made a villain out of one of his biggest weaknesses but never really go anywhere with that). Knuckles should have been hugely impacted by all this, but he just sort of bumbles through 3 flashbacks, barely even reacting to them, and the end of his story is basically "idgi. well whatever back to guardianin'." Every other characters has even less connection to the Chaos/Tikal stuff; they get a random nonsense flashback and maybe fight Chaos, who to them is just a big monster in their way. And the game explains a bit about Angel Island's past, but stops before it actually becomes Angel Island, so it ends up dodging basically all the questions you might've had from 3&K, like what actually made it start floating or how Knuckles became the last of his kind.

A really funny thing about this game's writing now that you point it out is that Tails, Amy and new character Gamma are the ones that have major personal breakthroughs in this game despite Sonic and Knuckles being the one with the most no brainer ways to go through some character development in this plot.

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