Jump to content
Awoo.

Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!


KHCast

Recommended Posts

I think nostalgia's the main reason why people hold SA2 up high, even with it's problems. Tho, I think a lot of people cross the line between criticism and bashing when it comes to SA2, so they hate not just the gameplay, but the story, the tone, the world, and the ideas as if they were complete and total trash with nothing redeemable or salvagable.

 

And that's when I start ripping and calling people out...

 

I can see a lot of SA2's flaws, but I see people act less like judges and start using the game as a whipping boy sometimes.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 7.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Kuzu

    565

  • E-122-Psi

    416

  • CrownSlayer’s Shadow

    397

  • DabigRG

    347

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

I think nostalgia's the main reason why people hold SA2 up high, even with it's problems. Tho, I think a lot of people cross the line between criticism and bashing when it comes to SA2, so they hate not just the gameplay, but the story, the tone, the world, and the ideas as if they were complete and total trash with nothing redeemable or salvagable.

 

And that's when I start ripping and calling people out...

 

I can see a lot of SA2's flaws, but I see people act less like judges and start using the game as a whipping boy sometimes.

 

Well, it's a modern game and the debut of Shadow, I'm not surprised...

 

I will say I am still a fan of SA2, but I love it for the characters, story (flaws and all), and the music, but even I'll admit the gameplay has aged like bread... OK, I'll shut up now and go to bed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SA2 used to be one of my favorite games in the series.  The gameplay was top-notch to me at the time and it was probably the first time I ever cried at a video game as a result of a character dying.  Truth be told, I still shed a tear at Shadow's descent to earth and that really sad string music that plays during the ending credits.

 

Thirteen years later, I have to say... I often wonder what I saw in the game besides Sonic.  The enemies and general atmosphere just about the most lifeless and bland things I've ever seen (to the point where I'd be inclined to credit the enemy designs of Sonic '06, which were also just "okay" to me at best), the story and presentation are about the last thing I ever would want to associate with a Sonic game (even though I'll admit the actual tonality of the game was fairly likable), and while I've grown far too accustomed to the gameplay to say I truly dislike it, the shoddy structure and numerous glitches make it feel very unstable.  I've never liked the walker stages (although it's forgivable with Eggman because that's what I'd expect him to be doing) and I just want to rip my hair out at the treasure hunting stages.  The music is great, but a huge step down from SA1, in my opinion.

 

Even with all these flaws, though, I still find SA2 to be okay and fairly enjoyable when in the right mood.  But I certainly wouldn't consider it at all the best Sonic game ever made, let alone the last good Sonic game.

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the story, I'm not exactly seeing why it's the last thing to associate with Sonic compared to the likes of ShTH or Sonic 06. It's like Sonic's version of Pokemon's Mewtwo Strikes Back down to the core.

 

The presentation tho, yeah that had some hiccups in it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pokémon was never outside the realm of character deaths, and even had scenes with guns that remained in the 4Kids dub.  The thing is that despite taking place in a world of talking hedgehogs and space stations, being gunned down by the military in a hardcore government cover-up just seems far too worldly compared to "killed as a result of a monstrous animal's psychic powers."

 

That being said, I think Pokémon's portrayal was a little problematic as well, but I literally can not separate Kanto Pokémon from my nostalgic vision of it, so I can't even  explain properly why it works there and doesn't elsewhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pokémon was never outside the realm of character deaths, and even had scenes with guns that remained in the 4Kids dub.  The thing is that despite taking place in a world of talking hedgehogs and space stations, being gunned down by the military in a hardcore government cover-up just seems far too worldly compared to "killed as a result of a monstrous animal's psychic powers."

I honestly beg to differ given how much darker other kids media can be. I can understand there's a limit, but when you have kids shows like Kung Fu Panda 2 getting away with things like genocide and on screen death in a world of talking animals in medieval China, I fail to see how the stuff in SA2 was too worldly. And that's just one example.

 

At least SA2 keep the military gunning people down off screen and you only read about it in Gerald's journal. If anything, that just seems like an unfair double standard to apply to Sonic, and we can really do without it. Besides, if something like Pokemon can make it work, there's no reason why a series like Sonic can't, and mind you The First Movie had Mewtwo unambiguously kill everyone in the intro. Funny how we thought nothing big of it when we were younger, no?

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly beg to differ given how much darker other kids media can be. I can understand there's a limit, but when you have kids shows like Kung Fu Panda 2 getting away with things like genocide and on screen death in a world of talking animals in medieval China, I fail to see how the stuff in SA2 was too worldly. And that's just one example.

 

At least SA2 keep the military gunning people down off screen and you only read about it in Gerald's journal. If anything, that just seems like an unfair double standard to apply to Sonic, and we can really do without it.

I don't know.  I feel the prospect that "other children's media did it, therefore it's okay" is a bit of a fallacy.  New Super Mario Bros. had a scene of Bowser being scalded to his apparent death, which many people use to justify more intense scenes in Sonic, but I honestly thought that was just as terribly out of place and horrible as it would be in Sonic game.  That being said, I wasn't saying that Sonic should be held to a golden, non-violent standard, but that such intense plots are not what I personally associate with the series.  I think it can be complex and interesting without the use of such gruesome and worldly character deaths, off-screen or otherwise.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know.  I feel the prospect that "other children's media did it, therefore it's okay" is a bit of a fallacy.  New Super Mario Bros. had a scene of Bowser being scalded to his apparent death, which many people use to justify more intense scenes in Sonic, but I honestly thought that was just as terribly out of place and horrible as it would be in Sonic game.  That being said, I wasn't saying that Sonic should be held to a golden, non-violent standard, but that such intense plots are not what I personally associate with the series.  I think it can be complex and interesting without the use of such gruesome and worldly character deaths, off-screen or otherwise.

 

It's more a counter against the more fallicious "think of the children" argument; the point being that if children can handle in one equally cartoony media, it's not going to bother them in another one. Nevermind how much these people have been exposed to the same things at that age, and it just comes off as hypocritical to say it works for one children's media, yet not for another one because we have to think of the children. That and the whole notion that Sonic shouldn't do dark because he's Sonic, and that's ridiculous in itself. It's just annoying that we can't explore these things without Sonic being considered out of place for them, because he really isn't so long as you don't treat it so foolhardy, which was the series problem when it came to this stuff post-SA2.

 

All in all, I think Sonic is perfectly suited for intense moments like those when done well. Sonic is well within his range so long as he's not trying to emulate franchises for the sake of being edgy and mature like the series tried to do in ShTH. He doesn't need to be Inception, but there's really no need to chain him away from such scenes or heavy elements and themes so long as it's done with care. That's really all there is to it. Besides, it can be thought provoking when you give it a chance, one that you could weaken or completely ruin the point if you deny him such moments, just like Mewtwo Strikes Back. wink.png

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's more a counter against the more fallicious "think of the children" argument; the point being that if children can handle in one equally cartoony media, it's not going to bother them in another one. Nevermind how much these people have been exposed to the same things, and it just comes off as hypocritical to say it works for one children's media, yet not for another one because we have to think of the children. That and the whole notion that Sonic shouldn't do dark because he's Sonic, and that's ridiculous in itself. It's just annoying that we can't explore these things without Sonic being considered out of place for them, because he really isn't so long as you don't treat it so foolhardy, which was the series problem when it came to this stuff post-SA2.

 

My point was not about the reaction of the children, but how the atmosphere and setting doesn't lend well to these kind of things.  It's not to say that Sonic can't handle more realistic and more close-to-home matters, but the way SA2 presented it sure didn't convince me of it.  Sonic and the Secret Rings, on the other hand, did.  It had themes of a controlling and abusive relationship, but not in such a way that it took away from the clearly fantasy setting.  Replaying SA2 just made me think "what the fuck this isn't fucking Tom Clancy's Sonic the Rainbow Splinter 6 by Ian Fleming what is this," not "oh so deep the story."  I know that sounds moronic, but it just miffed me a little.

 

--FUCK IT IPB WON'T LET ME PASTE THE SECOND QUOTE SO PRETEND THE SECOND PART OF YOUR POST IS HERE--

 

 

 
I don't know.  I still don't believe Sonic needs any more dark or down-to-earth plotlines to be interesting and relatable, nor do I think it's refraining from them is something that's holding the series back.  Even in Secret Rings, it was just the sprinkles on the cake.  Nice, but didn't need to be added to give the story substance.  The same could be said for Pokémon.  The scientists dying didn't need to happen.  The story's interesting delve into the subject of cloning and Mewtwo's search for purpose and meaning were more than enough to keep the story afloat.

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My point was not about the reaction of the children, but how the atmosphere and setting doesn't lend well to these kind of things. 

Yes, I know. I just felt you should understand the point behind the prospect you found fallicious. 

 

 

 

It's not to say that Sonic can't handle more realistic and more close-to-home matters, but the way SA2 presented it sure didn't convince me of it.  Sonic and the Secret Rings, on the other hand, did.  It had themes of a controlling and abusive relationship, but not in such a way that it took away from the clearly fantasy setting.  Replaying SA2 just made me think "what the fuck this isn't fucking Tom Clancy's Sonic the Rainbow Splinter 6 by Ian Fleming what is this," not "oh so deep the story."  I know that sounds moronic, but it just miffed me a little.

I guess I could see you point.

 

So how would you present SA2 better, make it tell the same tale in the same tone but in away that's more Sonic and less Tom Clancy?

 

 

 

I don't know.  I still don't believe Sonic needs any more dark or down-to-earth plotlines to be interesting and relatable, nor do I think it's refraining from them is something that's holding the series back.  Even in Secret Rings, it was just the sprinkles on the cake.  Nice, but didn't need to be added to give the story substance.  The same could be said for Pokémon.  The scientists dying didn't need to happen.  The story's interesting delve into the subject of cloning and Mewtwo's search for purpose and meaning were more than enough to keep the story afloat.

But the thing is that it's not a matter of necessity. It a matter of telling a story and raising the bar. Sonic should be allowed do whatever he can to tell a story in a way that doesn't make him look stupid, whether it's being too cheesy for being too light or off putting for being too dark, but he shouldn't be refrained from these elements if he can handle them.

 

It's sending and audience on a rollercoaster with its ups and downs, with moments of high stakes and moments of fun. It's shouldn't be if "Sonic needs it" but if "he can do it" and without looking silly either way he goes. I don't want Sonic to be either/or, because I believe he can and should be well rounded to tell a story in a rainbow of tones within the series threshold. So, yes it's holding him back when you refrain from letting him do it; he doesn't need to be any more dark and down-to-earth any more than he needs to be light and in-the-clouds, but it's not like he can't do it and still be true to himself.

 

And honestly, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am absolutely sick as hell of that kind of talk. To me, that just denies part of the audience who wants it a chance to feel something out of it, something of high stakes and tension that you really couldn't get from the other side of the spectrum. And really, it's not like we can't have both here and compromise, it just comes off as one-sided otherwise.

 

For example, Pokemon. When Mewtwo blew up the lab and killed the scientists, you say that didn't need to happen, but I say that shows Mewtwo's frustation and intent to forgo the current world of humans and pokemon and remake it so that he can make his purpose. Whether it needed to happen is completely irrelevant to the intent it would raise in his actions. Later on, we see people having a blast and enjoying their lives before they reach the point of facing this dark moment later on, setting tension: we know Mewtwo is willing to kill, and he damn near does it to the protagonist, which is what makes us feel the stakes that are at play here - a loss and destruction of that happy world that they enjoy. That tension wouldn't come off the same way if the death of the scientists didn't happen; sure you didn't need it, but it sends a shockwave of a message over what this foe is willing to do on his own power and that he's playing for keeps.

 

Sonic can have a better masterpiece of a narrative without being restrictive over the tones he "needs": let him laugh and joke around, let him relax and have fun, but when something gets serious let him be shocked and demoralized - let him and the audience by proxy feel it without losing what makes him who he is. People have gotten onto Colors for being joke heavy, they've gotten on to Heroes for being too cheesy, they've gotten onto ShTH for making a mockery out of being dark and mature, and they've gotten on to Sonic 06 for being too dull and serious. All in all, we're better off not hitting just one chord of a tone in a plot.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is, as I said, having a character brutally murdered wasn't really necessary to the narrative, let alone in the semi-realistic way it was done.  The primary theme of SA2 was forgiveness and accepting humanity despite its flaws.  Could that not have been done if Maria and Gerald died of old age in prison or something?  I don't mean like conventional prison where they debatably get better treatment than honest, hard-working people either.  I mean, bare minimum treatment, maximum security prison.  Sure, having a child and the co-protagonist's only on-screen friend shot right in front of his eyes would definitely leave a larger impact, but it didn't enrich the plot in the slightest.  It merely soured the tone.

 

But to answer your question, let's assume that Maria and Gerald's gruesome demise was absolutely necessary and that the story simply could not progress without it.  I think what would have been a real game-changer for me is, instead of focusing on her death, how about focusing on the good times she had?  Ironically enough, showing happiness is the best way to write a sad story.  You can see in the flashback that happens after Shadow rescues Rouge from the vault on Prison Island that they sort of tried to do this, but every other time, they just kept flashing back to the scene where she evacuates Shadow to Earth.  Even at that, the one cutscene we get that doesn't involve Maria's death is still depressing, as it shows Shadow suffering from an existential crisis.  Now, not to say that scene was unnecessary.  I think it's definitely worth noting that Shadow is a deeply troubled character with Maria's death being something that exasperated pre-existing symptoms, but we see next to no instances of Shadow and Maria being happy together or even their meeting.  You would think if Maria was such an important person in Shadow's life, they'd at least have the decency to show a scene like that.

 

Chalk it up to bad writing over the actual concept if you will, but I feel SA2 focused far too much on the brutality of Shadow's dilemma and not enough on his old self and what made him such a Gloomy Gus to begin with.  You can have a more happy, whimsical universe while still having tearful elements.

 

 

 

And honestly, I'm not trying to be rude, but I am absolutely sick as hell of that kind of talk. To me, that just denies part of the audience who wants it a chance to feel something out of it

 

 

And ironically enough, that's exactly the reason why I hate the concept of dark, brutal stories in regards to Sonic.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is, as I said, having a character brutally murdered wasn't really necessary to the narrative, let alone in the semi-realistic way it was done.  The primary theme of SA2 was forgiveness and accepting humanity despite its flaws.  Could that not have been done if Maria and Gerald died of old age in prison or something?  I don't mean like conventional prison where they debatably get better treatment than honest, hard-working people either.  I mean, bare minimum treatment, maximum security prison.  Sure, having a child and the co-protagonist's only on-screen friend shot right in front of his eyes would definitely leave a larger impact, but it didn't enrich the plot in the slightest.  It merely soured the tone.

No, because then the impact is so weak it completely ruins the motive behind the revenge in the first place and would weaken the theme as a result. Shadow is trying to fight fire with fire (or a nuke-er, colony drop, whatever), his world was destroyed tragically before his eyes, and as a result he's going to return the favor to the world at large that took that away until he turns around to forgive the world in the end. You have them sent to prison and die of old age, you make Shadow's and Gerald's motive less tragic and more petty and less sympathetic. And considering that Maria meant the world to Gerald, if she's alive and dies with Gerald (or lives to old age, point being she's alive and well) you've rendered much of his motive for revenge completely null, with less of a strong motive to fit his already disproportionate revenge or even have him modify Shadow to do this.

 

So now you have to work around those problems that the death was suppose to be a catalyst of.

 

But to answer your question, let's assume that Maria and Gerald's gruesome demise was absolutely necessary and that the story simply could not progress without it.  I think what would have been a real game-changer for me is, instead of focusing on her death, how about focusing on the good times she had?  Ironically enough, showing happiness is the best way to write a sad story.  You can see in the flashback that happens after Shadow rescues Rouge from the vault on Prison Island that they sort of tried to do this, but every other time, they just kept flashing back to the scene where she evacuates Shadow to Earth.  Even at that, the one cutscene we get that doesn't involve Maria's death is still depressing, as it shows Shadow suffering from an existential crisis.  Now, not to say that scene was unnecessary.  I think it's definitely worth noting that Shadow is a deeply troubled character with Maria's death being something that exasperated pre-existing symptoms, but we see next to no instances of Shadow and Maria being happy together or even their meeting.  You would think if Maria was such an important person in Shadow's life, they'd at least have the decency to show a scene like that.

This sounds good. You give more bonding for Shadow, make the audience understand more of his suffering and as a result it earns him more sympathy in that while he has to be stopped we feel even more sorry for him.

 

But I was thinking something more along the lines of the world as well. A lot of the military elements being too realistic, because my idea for that would be to make them a little more stylized like Sonic so that they fit the world more instead of clashing. But at any rate.

 

 

 

Chalk it up to bad writing over the actual concept if you will, but I feel SA2 focused far too much on the brutality of Shadow's dilemma and not enough on his old self and what made him such a Gloomy Gus to begin with.  You can have a more happy, whimsical universe while still having tearful elements.

That's something one of my friends critiqued on my writing about earning audience sympathy. So I can see your point, and will chalk that up to bad writing. However, I still prefer a well rounded and flexible universe, one that is both happy, whimsical but can be dark, and grounded. I honestly don't see why we can't do both.

 

 

 

And ironically enough, that's exactly the reason why I hate the concept of dark, brutal stories in regards to Sonic.

For a cheap feel, right? Because I'm talking things that completely shift a playing field with high tension and stakes.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So let's if IPB wants to behave with multi-quotes now. XD 

 



No, because then the impact is so weak it completely ruins the motive behind the revenge in the first place. Shadow is trying to fight fire with fire (or a nuke-er, colony drop, whatever), his world was destroyed tragically before his eyes, and as a result he's going to return the favor to the world at large that took that away. You have them sent to prison and die of old age, you make Shadow's and Gerald's motive less tragic and more petty and less sympathetic. And considering that Maria meant the world to Gerald, if she's alive and dies with Gerald (or lives to old age, point being she's alive and well) you've rendered much of his motive for revenge completely null.

 

I wouldn't say that.  Being stripped of all your human rights and many of the worldly freedoms and comforts you've grown attached to is a pretty despicable thing as well.  For Gerald, I guess I'm at a bit of a fix here, but I really don't think Maria being brutally killed in such a manner would be a necessary component to flick the switch and make him go insane, nor does doing so add anything.  As for Shadow, I can see your point, but honestly I think keeping her alive could serve a great point:  The revenge is often more brutal than the actual offense to provoke it.  Shadow deciding to fight against humanity in such a way would make perfect sense because he wants to make the lives of humans worse than the lives of that which they left him.

 

 

 

This sounds good. You give more bonding for Shadow, make the audience understand more of his suffering and as a result it earns him more sympathy in that while he has to be stopped we feel even more sorry for him.

 

But I was thinking something more along the lines of the world as well. A lot of the military elements being too realistic, because my idea for that would be to make them a little more stylized like Sonic so that they fit the world more instead of clashing. But at any rate.

 

 

Ah, yes, that would definitely have been beneficial as well. ^^ - At the same time, I think having the Station Square Police Department resemble highly realistic SWAT officers didn't really detract too much from the setting of SA1, so I don't necessarily think that having a realistic military was the culprit in and of itself.

 

 

 

For a cheap feel, right?

 

 

Not quite, although ShTH and Sonic '06 did give me plenty of dark-phobia for pretty much that reason.  I do want to see more weight in Sonic games.  I'm not saying the games should be free of consequence or looming threat, but too much weight and worldly consequence and you've officially lost me.  No longer does the story impress me for its richness, but how unpleasant and non-escapist it is.  Going back to the Tom Clancy example, that's something that's always been a bit hard to swallow with the Splinter Cell games.  Not to criticize those stories as they are perfectly legitimate story-telling tools that work within the tone, setting, and narrative of the series, but seeing civilians and otherwise innocent people be murdered simply on the basis of "in the wrong place at the wrong time" just sucks all intrigue and other-worldliness of the story and is probably why Sarah's death in Double Agent struck such a nerve with me.  (Of course, I know it's supposed to strike a nerve, but it's not an enriching or thought-provoking way; at least, not to me.)

 

And yes, I know she returns in Blacklist, but I haven't played that one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So let's if IPB wants to behave with multi-quotes now. XD 

 

I wouldn't say that.  Being stripped of all your human rights and many of the worldly freedoms and comforts you've grown attached to is a pretty despicable thing as well.  For Gerald, I guess I'm at a bit of a fix here, but I really don't think Maria being brutally killed in such a manner would be a necessary component to flick the switch and make him go insane, nor does doing so add anything.  As for Shadow, I can see your point, but honestly I think keeping her alive could serve a great point:  The revenge is often more brutal than the actual offense to provoke it.  Shadow deciding to fight against humanity in such a way would make perfect sense because he wants to make the lives of humans worse than the lives of that which they left him.

But to Gerald, Maria meant the world to him. With her alive, one could assume he'd be okay with his comforts and freedoms stripped. So now you'd have to find something to flick the switch and make him go insane, which if we're talking prison, then you're treading on the same dark and brutal territory as death, which wouldn't be different, if not worse depending on how you portray it. So you're really just setting yourself up for something even darker or you're going to be hardpressed to remake SA2's plot to tell give the same motives and catalysts for the story. Either way, you're setting a lot of it against yourself to avoid being dark because one leads to something darker and the other leads to more narrative problems you have to solve trying to reach the same result with less brutality.

 

And as for Shadow, not only does a lot of the stuff for Gerald apply here, but that's still much more petty compared to losing her the way he did. Not to mention that it's less scarring for his attitude, and he doesn't earn the same tragic feel. And if the revenge is to be more brutal than the actual offense, then isn't that basically putting you at square one over trying to avoid such brutal elements? If not, then that still has other problems of not being sympathetic enough. We have to feel for Shadow's loss while knowing that he needs to be stopped, otherwise it comes off as a lot more whiny and petty to the audience since his scars weren't deep enough to warrant the much more brutal revenge he would try to carry out upon the world.

 

This is why that death fits into place a lot better, otherwise you might as well remake the whole puzzle set to make it work.

 

Ah, yes, that would definitely have been beneficial as well. ^^ - At the same time, I think having the Station Square Police Department resemble highly realistic SWAT officers didn't really detract too much from the setting of SA1, so I don't necessarily think that having a realistic military was the culprit in and of itself.

So the military was okay?

 

Funny, because I'm of the opinion of remaking the human soldiers along Unleashed's designs. But it's not that big a deal.

 

 

 

 

Not quite, although ShTH and Sonic '06 did give me plenty of dark-phobia for pretty much that reason.  I do want to see more weight in Sonic games.  I'm not saying the games should be free of consequence or looming threat, but too much weight and worldly consequence and you've officially lost me.  No longer does the story impress me for its richness, but how unpleasant and non-escapist it is.

But...that's the thing I'm trying to get by over having a well-rounded and flexible tone that puts you on a roller coaster. It has some light and soft moments before it dives you into dark and serious, a mood whiplash that makes you enjoy the happy moment and cringe at the tense parts. That's why I'm saying we shouldn't be either/or, we should have both.

 

But I question what "too much" is, because that plays into a lot of the weight and consequences that can happen. There comes a time when I call a bluff so much that I want to see a surprise that I couldn't see coming that makes things unpleasant and force the heroes to pick up the slack to fix things.

 

Going back to the Tom Clancy example, that's something that's always been a bit hard to swallow with the Splinter Cell games.  Not to criticize those stories as they are perfectly legitimate story-telling tools that work within the tone, setting, and narrative of the series, but seeing civilians and otherwise innocent people be murdered simply on the basis of "in the wrong place at the wrong time" just sucks all intrigue and other-worldliness of the story and is probably why Sarah's death in Double Agent struck such a nerve with me.  (Of course, I know it's supposed to strike a nerve, but it's not an enriching or thought-provoking way; at least, not to me.)

 

And yes, I know she returns in Blacklist, but I haven't played that one.

...I really don't know what to say other than "that's the point" and "it might not be your cup of tea" because you're dealing with a plot of black-and-grey morality that has people carry out acts that are down right criminal all for the sake of national interest or for political purposes. 

 

I mean, really, it's Splinter Cell, it's a series about black operations, the dark and heavy world of being a black operative, a game with some dark and heavy as hell elements. That's just something your suppose to expect regardless of whether or not you find it enriching or thought-provoking - and if anything, I'd argue all that death wasn't suppose to be either of those things other than to show just how tense and brutal such a black-and-grey setting is and how extreme the consequences and stakes can be. It's not like Sonic where you have a morality kitchen sink of shades and can end things on a more bittersweet or happy note, because Splinter Cell expects you to know that it dives into an darker abyss.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

But to Gerald, Maria meant the world to him. With her alive, one could assume he'd be okay with his comforts and freedoms stripped. So now you'd have to find something to flick the switch and make him go insane, which if we're talking prison, then you're treading on the same dark and brutal territory as death, which wouldn't be different, if not worse depending on how you portray it. So you're really just setting yourself up for something even darker or you're going to be hardpressed to remake SA2's plot to tell give the same motives and catalysts for the story. Either way, you're setting a lot of it against yourself to avoid being dark because one leads to something darker and the other leads to more narrative problems you have to solve trying to reach the same result with less brutality.

 

"I only want the best for my daughter who suffers from NIDS, but I can't because we are both behind bars and she will not receive the cure that I've worked so hard to attain.  My daughter's health being my primary concern, the thought that I'd be separate from her, never sure if she has all the help she needs drives me to insanity."

 

Sounds okay to me.  Granted, if presented the right way, it can still border on equally unpleasant, but I think it can be worked around to be a lot less so than having her gunned down.

 

And as for Shadow, not only does a lot of the stuff for Gerald apply here, but that's still much more petty compared to losing her the way he did. Not to mention that it's less scarring for his attitude, and he doesn't earn the same tragic feel. And if the revenge is to be more brutal than the actual offense, then isn't that basically putting you at square one over trying to avoid such brutal elements? If not, then that still has other problems of not being sympathetic enough. We have to feel for Shadow's loss while knowing that he needs to be stopped, otherwise it comes off as a lot more whiny and petty to the audience since his scars weren't deep enough to warrant the much more brutal revenge he would try to carry out upon the world.
Again, I don't agree. He's separated from what we're led to believe is his only friend and imprisoned away from her.  She's as good as dead to him by the time he gets out anyway.  So his motivations still fit and wouldn't require that much retooling.

 

So the military was okay?

 

Funny, because I'm of the opinion of remaking the human soldiers along Unleashed's designs. But it's not that big a deal.

think so?  I don't know.  All I'm saying is that the SSPD didn't bother me in SA1, so there's probably more to it than just redesigning the military. XD

 

But...that's the thing I'm trying to get by over having a well-rounded tone that puts you on a roller coaster. It has some light and soft moments before it dives you into dark and serious, a mood whiplash that makes you enjoy the happy moment and cringe at the tense parts.

Even with lighthearted moments and atmosphere that isn't depressing in and of itself, it still has the possibility of going too far.  Going to have to ask my friend about the name of this animated film masquerading as a kid's movie where a bunch of baby tadpoles are devoured and the lead character's father is murdered in front of his eyes.  If anyone knows what the hell I'm talking about, feel free to link that because it was incredibly depressing.

 

That being said, what makes that movie different from the likes of The Land Before Time is probably the matter that it's one point of the movie, not the whole point.  I mean, yes, SA2 has a lot going for it aside from that, too, but it all ultimately tied to Maria's death.

 

...I really don't know what to say other than "that's the point" and "it might not be your cup of tea" because you're dealing with a plot of black-and-grey morality that has people carry out acts that are down right criminal all for the sake of national interest or for political purposes. 

 

I mean, really, it's Splinter Cell, it's a series about black operations, the dark and heavy world of being a black operative, a game with some dark and heavy as hell elements. That's just something your suppose to expect regardless of whether or not you find it enriching or thought-provoking - and if anything, I'd argue all that death wasn't suppose to be either of those things other than to show just how tense such a black-and-grey setting is. It's not like Sonic where you have a morality kitchen sink of shades and can end things on a more bittersweet or happy note, because Splinter Cell dives into an darker abyss.

You're missing the point.  I know that Splinter Cell is dark by nature and I'm okay with that.  It's Splinter Cell.  It's something that you would play if you want to experience that sort of gritty realism.  And because Lambert is unintentionally hilarious

 

My point being that I don't want Sonic to be comparable to Splinter Cell on that level.  Next to Manhunt or some other gritty horror survival game, it's probably the last thing I want to compare it to.  That was my reason of my comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

"I only want the best for my daughter who suffers from NIDS, but I can't because we are both behind bars and she will not receive the cure that I've worked so hard to attain.  My daughter's health being my primary concern, the thought that I'd be separate from her, never sure if she has all the help she needs drives me to insanity."

 

Sounds okay to me.  Granted, if presented the right way, it can still border on equally unpleasant, but I think it can be worked around to be a lot less so than having her gunned down.

I don't think so, because here Maria still dies in a horrible way. If she doesn't get shot, she slowly succumbs to her disease, so all you're doing is trading a quick, brutal death for a slow, brutal one. They both get the same result, but the latter is no less lighthearted than the former.

 

 

Again, I don't agree. He's separated from what we're led to believe is his only friend and imprisoned away from her.  She's as good as dead to him by the time he gets out anyway.  So his motivations still fit and wouldn't require that much retooling.
But it's not as scarring, and his motivations are still arguably petty compared to a death before his eyes that cements him as more tragic. So she gets imprisoned and dies there, so that gives him the motivation to destroy the world? I'd rather we keep the death, as it makes the disproportionate retribution much more understanding and equal (okay, that's a stretch), since it makes him want blood for blood spilled unjustly instead of blood for unjust imprisonment then death.

 

 

 

Even with lighthearted moments and atmosphere that isn't depressing in and of itself, it still has the possibility of going too far.

Then, I'm sorry, but I think you're a bit squeamish over these things and I don't really agree with it.

 

Lots of works are lighthearted in moments and atmosphere that go too far: Mufasa and Scar's death in Lion King 1, Bambi's mom getting shot in Bambi, the introduction to Fox in the Hound where Todd's mother gets shot (I recall you giving me this as an example at one point), Clayton and Kerchak's death (the latter also gets shot, like Maria and the other two Disney moments listed) in Tarzan, Esmeralda's burning at the stake and Frollo's death in Hunchback of NotreDame, Bowser's flaying body in New Super Mario Bros, Mewtwo's killing of the scientists in Mewtwo Strikes Back, the destruction of Neo Arcadia in Megaman Zero 4, the genocide of the Panda's and the Alpha Wolf's death in Kung Fu Panda 2, etc. (really, there's a whole list for animated works, much less Disney alone here)

 

If it still goes too far despite being lighthearted, then I don't really buy that you're okay with more weight in this series like you say your are. Maria's death presented in SA2 was no less gruesome or extreme than the examples above, particularly in the three examples where characters also get gunned down off screen just like her. So if that's too far for you regarding Sonic, then I'm not sure what else to say regarding these comparisons. 

 

 

 

 

You're missing the point.  I know that Splinter Cell is dark by nature and I'm okay with that.  It's Splinter Cell.  It's something that you would play if you want to experience that sort of gritty realism.  And because Lambert is unintentionally hilarious

 

My point being that I don't want Sonic to be comparable to Splinter Cell on that level.  Next to Manhunt or some other gritty horror survival game, it's probably the last thing I want to compare it to.  That was my reason of my comparison.

I never said I want Sonic to be on that level either. I like Sonic being lighthearted, but I also like him with tension and high stakes, and see nothing wrong with him treading darker moments while still being Sonic. It doesn't have to be civilian's getting viscerally murdered left and right, but it's not like Sonic can't be himself while tackling heavier themes similar to other franchises.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the only thing I really don't like about SA2 these days is the camera and half the treasure hunting stages, everything else is pretty cool.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think that's an unpopular opinion, since that is one of the reasons why that scene sucked so hard.

 

It's also pretty telling that Sonic was killed by someone who was pretty much the main enemy for Shadow and someone he only saw once throughout the story (where they're in the future eavesdropping on Mephiles and Silver's conversation).

 

But does Sonic ever give a damn about who that guy was or why he sent Silver to kill him? No.

 

In fact he never brought it up with Shadow since Mephiles was still in Shadow Recolor Mode. Hell, Knuckles of all people notified that he looked like Shadow. So my question is, if one of them made it point that they thought it was Shadow, why did none of them bring this up to Shadow in the next cutscene? What was the point of making it a point when it goes nowhere, real fast? Not only would it have made Shadow more suspicious about Mephiles's motives, but also put Sonic on his guard of another threat besides Eggman and Silver when he got back to his time. But no, that would've made too much sense for 06'. 

 

But the really sad thing about it still is, it isn't until his death that Sonic actually became goddamn important to the plot with everyone saying "Oh, we could've had a chance if Sonic was still alive." Oh gee whilickers, now you're telling me the real big damn hero of this game, Shadow (and Silver to an extent) is now of all times, incapable of actually accomplishing something without the one character who should've been the hero of this game.

 

....Whoa, that escalated more than I intended...

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have a problem with SA2 being dark and all, but I do have a problem with how those elements are handled. They just seem to be put in the story for a cheap attention grab without realizing how these plot points are supposed to work together, so we get "The military commissioned Gerald to create weapons and biological experiments on board the Space Colony ARK, but then the same military kills everyone on board for some... reason... I dunno, BUT LOOK, MARIA IS DEEEEEAAADDDD IT'S SO TRAGIC! #2dark2heavy"

 

But I suppose they could of answered some of those unanswered questions in another game-

340px-Shadow_ps2_us.jpg

oh no... just... nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In terms of those Disney scenes, I think the key difference is that those cases still fit in the conventions of the universe the story created. A key problem with many 'dark' Sonic scenes is that to make them work they have to pretty much alter the entire universe and backdrop to make it work, usually abiding to some pretentious anime cliche. I liked SA1 for example since while it had dark scenes, they were all connected heavily to the fantasy mythos of the original series (Gamma is basically the badnik setup with Cerebus Syndrome slapped on, while Tikal's story elaborates more on the echidna backstory), there's still some degree of whimsy to the whole ordeal as well.

 

SA2 and many other examples seem more like slapping Sonic into any generic action film setup. As mentioned GUN are incredibly disconnected from the usual Sonic affair, being a realistic corrupt military of photo stylized humans. I've also mentioned cases such as Molly's story in Sonic X, which almost come off like a Giant Space Flea From Nowhere just add more tragic weight onto the plot. The once almost ritual tendency to bow out one shot characters by killing them off for drama also started to get a bit unsettling too. It just came off very grandiose and pretentious how far some dark stories tended to skew the Sonic world just to look dramatic, especially since a lot of the time they'd undermine actual personality and pathos focus as a result.

  • Thumbs Up 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In terms of those Disney scenes, I think the key difference is that those cases still fit in the conventions of the universe the story created. A key problem with many 'dark' Sonic scenes is that to make them work they have to pretty much alter the entire universe and backdrop to make it work, usually abiding to some pretentious anime cliche.

We're talking mainly Maria's death and the revenge it motivates in two characters. The main point being Maria being gunned down is too brutal even if off screen and that lighthearted works can still go too far, even with works like those from Disney go much further despite being optimistic themselves.

A lot of stuff in SA2 can fit with some alterations, make the human military more stylized rather than realistic, you can brighten the scenery, etc. But my point is that I don't think the elements done in SA2 are out of reach for Sonic or go too far in themselves.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

very very unpopular opinion: I dont like Sonics love intrest, Amy Rose.

 

I just dont. I want to like her because her design but shes so annoying. I think shes just a loud annoying fangirl who wont leave Sonic alone and think shes entitle to Sonic and sometimes I wonder if she even knows the guy. Yeah shes protected him i wont say she didnt but still. Its annoying to see a character run around saying Sonics her boyfriend and force herself on dates with him and gross him out. She even gets mad at Cosmo for thinking shes here to be with Sonic.

 

Its really annoying. And thats why I hate the character. I wouldnt want her to to be a Julie Su because shes fucking horrible or Shade or even Blaze. But I would want her to kinda grow up and get a clue. Sonic doesnt love her and should accept him as a friend only. Thats my view.

 

Im sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.