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Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!


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Yeesh. It was a joke. Why so serious? :rolleyes:
 

Because it was uncalled for.

 

He wouldn't always have to be looking for something. He certainly wasn't in the OVA. That's the beauty of it.

That doesn't answer my question: if Knuckles was a globe-trotting treasure-hunter, how many times would they have to keep coming up with stuff for him before it got old expecting him all the time? It's not like he's immune to getting stale.

You know what would've been nice? Knuckles telling Sonic and Tails about the Gaia Temples in Sonic Unleashed, instead of dumb-old Professor Pickle. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.


Or maybe we could have Knuckles do something else in Unleashed, because that wasn't really his place to talk about the Gaia Temples given that he isn't much of an archaeologist as people say he is.

That's an issue that's kind of inherent to Sonic's character. Sonic is a free-spirit, he lives in the moment, he has no job or responsibilities, nor is he tied down to any person or place. As the main character it works to his advantage since he can get involved in most any plot without any special reason to do so, but it also means that very rarely will have a personal stake in anything, and that makes him extremely susceptible to being eclipsed by those who do. Contrast that with characters like Knuckles, Shadow, and Silver who's roles are more rigidly defined, resulting in less freedom but also giving them a stronger identity, which allows them to form much deeper and more meaningful connections to the plot. They may be more limited in the ways they can get involved with the story but when the ball is in their court they can easily outshine Sonic.

That's an interesting way to look at it. But I see it rather differently in away.

Rather than Sonic being a jack of all trades, he and everyone else are specialized characters with interconnected investments into the plot, with some having greater personal stakes than others. And although certain characters have much more rigidly defined roles than Sonic, they have enough flexibility to grow into other roles. It's the kind of thing that allowed Shadow to go from bloodthirsty, revenge seeking spirit to a calmer, more protective (if not stoic) being - granted, the road he took was atrocious, but that had to do with the people in charge throwing influences like Underworld into his game.

For example, S3&K and SA1 involved a lot about Knuckles' ancient, but their whole conflicts were something that greatly involved Sonic to an equal extent. The stakes for Knuckles in both games were involving his home and the Master Emerald, but the stakes for Sonic was to stop Eggman's Death Egg from being spaceborne, with the Master Emeralds and Chaos Emeralds both tying Sonic and Knuckles together.

Silver...was a bit of an odd case. Sonic held some measure of importance in Sonic 06 given that he was targeted as the "Iblis Trigger" that would cause the apocalypse, which is what connected Sonic to Silver. But Sonic was mainly busy protecting the princess from Eggman, and it didn't really evolve much from that.

Sonic's stakes aren't entirely personal and he has more freedom than other characters, that much is true. But that isn't to say that others can't catalyze on their own limits and grow into something that allows more flexibility.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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  Because it was uncalled for.

 Know what else is uncalled for? Getting bent outta shape over a completely harmless and obvious joke.

That doesn't answer my question: if Knuckles was a globe-trotting treasure-hunter, how many times would they have to keep coming up with stuff for him before it got old expecting him all the time? It's not like he's immune to getting stale.

 But, it does, though... The amount of times is irrelevant, because they wouldn't have to always keep coming up with stuff for him. It's merely an excuse to get him off the island and to have him be more proactive in his own destiny, rather than sit around by himself on the island, waiting to have the trouble come to him.

Or maybe we could have Knuckles do something else in Unleashed, because that wasn't really his place to talk about the Gaia Temples given that he isn't much of an archaeologist as people say he is.

It wasn't really his place to give them knowledge about the Gaia Temples, a.k.a. the things responsible for recharging the Chaos Emeralds? Isn't Knuckles's knowledge of the Master and Chaos Emeralds unparalleled? I feel like he would've definitely known a great deal about those.

I honestly don't think either of us are really wrong on this one. They should have Knuckles be the keeper of the Master Emerald, but also have him globe-trotting to find more answers about his past. Have Tikal and Chaos hold down the fort back home, so he doesn't have to stay rooted down there all the time, like a watchdog. I think that's a beautiful compromise. You make it seem like both of our ideas for approaching the character are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are.

The Sonic OVA introduced the concept of Knuckles being a treasure hunter, and SA2 introduced Rouge the Bat -- a treasure hunter -- as his rival. I, personally, think that's grounds for giving the "Treasure-hunting Knuckles idea" a hard look. Hell, he could find another rival in Nack the Weasel. Bring that bastard back. I'd welcome it.

Also, in regards to the other good point that Bowbowis brought up: Do you think that, ultimately, that's a good thing? Or would you like to see Sonic's personality and role be altered. If so, then it what way?

Edited by Chaos Controller
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Knuckles never strike me as character that should be in the main cast (kind of like Shadow). And that's why I'm more for his Guardian role. Just use him when there is need for him.

Master Emerald/Angel island doesn't limits his character. Neglecting his duty is what holds Knuckles back. 

Frequently showing up just damaging his character.

 

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I'm pretty sure you can make Knuckles still have his guardian duties and give him other things to do, the Archie Comics did that pretty well so transfer that into the games and we can all have some Knuckles goodness without bastardizing his original purpose as a character!

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No they didn't? Pre-reboot, Knuckles just had whatever Chaotix member wasn't busy to guard it, which game Knuckles doesn't have the luxury of (not only are there vastly less members, they're not really his friends either). Post-reboot, Knuckles was drawn away because Tikal told him to while he had someone guard it that he'd never trusted it to before, and then the result of that arc was it being smashed into pieces which is where we are now. We've not really seen a regular arrangement that'd gel with the games. 

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No they didn't? Pre-reboot, Knuckles just had whatever Chaotix member wasn't busy to guard it, which game Knuckles doesn't have the luxury of (not only are there vastly less members, they're not really his friends either). Post-reboot, Knuckles was drawn away because Tikal told him to while he had someone guard it that he'd never trusted it to before, and then the result of that arc was it being smashed into pieces which is where we are now. We've not really seen a regular arrangement that'd gel with the games. 

Well I guess it's not perfect but it's better than pretending it doesn't exist (except that it does).

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Its been a while since we've argued about the old case of "Knuckles and the Master Emerald" 

 

To be honest, I'm past the point of caring. Even when Knuckles does appear in games nowadays, he's not particularly relevant to anything that's going on, much less the Master Emerald being involved so its just....whatever to me. 

That said, I'm starting to feel like rigidly defining him to the point where he literally cannot appear unless its tied to a specific plot point is sort of limiting what can be done with the character. Its like...Jezz brought this up in another thread, but I think everyone focuses too much on "How can X fit into this story" when we should focus on "How can the story fit around X". 

See, that is what I feel is the difference between characters like Blaze, Knuckles, and Shadow compared to Sonic, Tails, or Amy. The former three have all had stories about them personally as characters where each of them goes through an arc (Trusting people, learning more about their job, fleshing out their past, etc.) The story is literally fitted around those characters. Meanwhile, the likes of Sonic, Tails, and Amy are much less defined. As Bowbis said, Sonic is the enabler, the character that saves the day, but isn't the focus of the story like someone like Knuckles would be. He just wanders into the plot and helps out those in need and keeps it moving. Tails and Amy are, for the most part, his sidekicks; they're there to support Sonic as he saves the day, but once again the story isn't about them.

This is why I think we never question why Tails appears constantly, but Knuckles is constantly under scrutiny; Tails (& Amy) is an accessory character to Sonic, they exist in subservience to him as he saves the day. Knuckles however is very much defined independently of Sonic, he has his own plotline and character motivations completely separate from him, even if they tend to intersect. This is why his appearances tend to be so lackluster, its because he's stripped of everything that makes him...ya know, Knuckles the Echidna. He's not a tagalong like Tails & Amy are, he's got his own life to lead and things to take care of. Being friends with Sonic shouldn't really change that. 

I'm not saying every single story featuring Knuckles needs to be related to his heritage in some way, but at the same time, if his presence isn't needed for the plot to play out then I feel its best to just leave him out altogether. His appearance in the Riders series is a good use of the character; he's got his own rival, and his presence has a purpose beyond just tagging along (his knowledge of ancient culture in ZG for example). 

 

So in regards to any character that's not Sonic, I think there needs to be three simple questions to ask:

1. Is this character needed for the plot to play out?

2. If yes, what role does this character play in the plot?

3. How important is this role and what would the plot lack without it's presence?

 

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Eh, I'm not so into the "what criteria have to be met for Knuckles to reasonably appear" unpopular stuff. My unpopular opinion is that Knuckles was treated as superfluous as early as SA1. *shrug*

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Eh, I'm not so into the "what criteria have to be met for Knuckles to reasonably appear" unpopular stuff. My unpopular opinion is that Knuckles was treated as superfluous as early as SA1. *shrug*

To each their own I guess. But I'm curious as to why you feel that way? You feel his presence didn't have enough weight to it? You think he needed to be fleshed out a bit more?

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Eh, I'm not so into the "what criteria have to be met for Knuckles to reasonably appear" unpopular stuff. My unpopular opinion is that Knuckles was treated as superfluous as early as SA1. 

You know what I'm gonna agree with you on that as well, Knuckles just never seemed to have a strong appearance in the 3D games, he was always kind of there was past the Pontaff games. Which kind of sucks especially comparing him to the current Archie incarnation, he's easily my favorite interpretation of him (besides Boom Knux of course). 

Like in SA1, it seems to go a bit into if Knuckles should really bother guarding the Emerald at all (maybe it's just me not remembering things well) but like most issues in Sonic games, it kind of goes nowhere as early as SA2, where it's a completely different story that has no real strong connections to SA1 thoughit does reference some events that happened in the game though.

I really only felt that Knuckles had a reason to be in the story (atleast in the main series) was pretty much in Chronicles (no duh), Zero Gravity kind of gave him a treasure hunter side to him but it kind of came out of nowhere.

At the end, Knuckles just feels a character that never really had a strong role in the games past 3&K and there's so much potential for him as a character.

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I'd say that's less of a problem with the character himself and more how this series goes about handling its characters in general

Its like, a new character will get introduced with an amazing, fleshed out character and once that game is over, they're done and over with. However, some characters are more popular than others and Sega just can't drop them like a bad habit...which leads to things like Sonic Generations. A game where no character really matters :V

But yea, I can agree with that. The series` doesn't really try to flesh out its large supporting cast and just opt to keep introducing newer ones. It really does make every character beyond Sonic, Tails, and Eggman feel superfluous to the series, which is probably why Sega just said "fuck it" and just opt to focus primarily on those three these days.

*sigh* well, I suppose this is what fanfiction and the comic books are for, so these things actually are properly fleshed out. Its just kind of a shame the developers care less than the fans do ya know :\

Edited by Kuzu the Boloedge
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Honestly, I don't even really mind being only able to play just as Sonic that much. I would just like the other characters to show up in the plot and cutscenes (i.e. like Amy in Sonic Unleashed). I think having Knuckles act as a well-spring of knowledge, in regards to anything ancient or mystical in Sonic's world, would add to his character greatly, without betraying it. (Again, him being the source of exposition for the Gaia Temples, instead of Professor Pickle, would've been much better, in my opinion.)

I think the characters would show up more often, and in their proper roles, if SEGA gave two craps about the actual plots in the games anymore (which they really haven't, since Unleashed). They're afraid  to make their plots ambitious now, and have just kind of opted to take the Mario route, where the continuity is tenuous, at best. It's one of the reasons I'm kind of glad Boom exists now, because my hope is that all of the joke-oriented throwaway stories will go to that side of the house, and force the main series to distinguish itself by making its plots grander, lore-heavier, and epic again.

Wishful thinking, I know. But, a man can dream, can't he?

Edited by Chaos Controller
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Just a forewarning to those on Bumbleking, you've seen this before so this'll mostly be a retread for you.

 

For the unpopular opinion, I think about it like this; it's a matter of seeing how they contribute to the primary plot but also how much the character takes as a result of the plot, regardless of whether that growth is recalled in later games because that's irrelevant to what happens within the game.

-Sonic doesn't get much growth out of the game, but he's definitely a major contributor, I wouldn't doubt that for a second.

-Tails makes quite a contribution towards the main plot, and he gets an arc of growth out of it.

-Amy doesn't contribute much (she looks after one of the Chaos Emeralds inadvertently and stops the deck fight), but she also has an arc of growth.

-Gamma doesn't have that much to contribute either, but he has one of the most famous character arcs in the series for a reason.

-Big contributes very little, and doesn't grow from the experience.

Knuckles also really contributes very little (he fights Sonic which knocks two Emeralds out, and he gathers six of them in one place so Chaos can conveniently grab them again), and he also doesn't grow from the experience (at the end, he says he may not know much about his past, but it might be better that way. He doesn't take anything from what he's seen of his heritage and he's not interested in learning more). In fact, the comparison to Big is apt because his story follows the same beats (precious macguffin is lost, they go around to retrieve it/them in multiple places, they eventually get it back, they go back to the status quo). It's awkward because the Master Emerald is important initially as it contains Chaos and Tikal, but after it's smashed by Eggman it's only important in the past (so much so that the second you start the final story, the Island falls again even though the Master Emerald is in one piece), and it's not treated with any urgency in the present (Tikal insists that Chaos has to be sealed again, but Sonic shoots that idea down and it's only the Chaos Emeralds that are needed, it's not needed at that point). It's also awkward because the story heavily revolves around his ancestors, but he's not really involved with them (like I said, he's not interested in learning more of what he sees, that experience never comes up when you'd think it would be useful, Tails has more knowledge on the macguffins that are actually key. Even Chaos, who was initially spurred by the tribe, has zero reaction against seeing a live Echidna, he only fights him because either Eggman ordered him to or because he's got something he wants).

So yeah, a slap-dash summary of that unpopular opinion. 

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(which they really haven't, since Black Knight). 

Fixed it for ya. 

I think of get what what you're saying V.

Knuckles could've been just as important to the main plot as Sonic was, since he could have a journey on the history of his ancestors and learning more about the island's mysteries, about Chaos and could've provided some info on how dire the situation can be to Sonic and such, bringing quite a lot of lore into it, and of course, while he's still finding the Emerald shards. 

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Fixed it for ya. 

I think of get what what you're saying V.

Knuckles could've been just as important to the main plot as Sonic was, since he could have a journey on the history of his ancestors and learning more about the island's mysteries, about Chaos and could've provided some info on how dire the situation can be to Sonic and such, bringing quite a lot of lore into it, and of course, while he's still finding the Emerald shards. 

Haha. Good point.

I guess I tend to overlook the Storybook games a lot, in these discussions, because they take place in alternate worlds. But, they really do have some of the best plots in any Sonic game to date, I think.

Even in those games, though, Knuckles (and everyone else but Sonic) played completely different roles than the ones usually given to them, and it worked wonders. That's kinda my point. A slight shake-up is in order, character-wise, I think.

Edited by Chaos Controller
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I wouldn't consider the Storybook variants to be valid interpretations of the character they look like since they are different characters that takes the form of a character we know, I guess a personification of the character in the book if I'm wording it right.

 

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There's also the fact that the additional characters in the storybook games aren't really that central to the plot; Alibaba(Tails), Sinbad(Knuckles), and Sharyar(Eggman) are cameos for the most part and the Knights of the Round Table don't really have much of a role beyond their macguffins. 

 

@ VEDJ-F: I would argue the story was less about Knuckles and more about his past, but I can understand. Knuckles doesn't really try to pursue his heritage and just "whatever" about it. 

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Yeah, I agree. But, do you see how much more mileage they got out of them, by approaching them in a completely different way (more in regards to Black Knight, over Secret Rings)? Not only were the Knights playable, but they actually felt like they mattered in the plot, and belonged there.

I'm not saying to completely throw out what's already been established (or maybe I am? I don't effin' know). But, maybe it wouldn't hurt to reconsider the characters' normal roles and how they're typically treated and approaded?

Edited by Chaos Controller
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To be fair, Knuckles' questions amounted to why he, of all people, had to be stuck with this job and what really happened to his people. He gets involved in the events and sees through Tikal's flashbacks some fucked up things, but at the end of the day no one character actually understood the entire extent of the backstory. So after that, what can you do aside from conclude that maybe some things are just better left unanswered? A main character doesn't necessarily need to grow for the better so much as have an arc where a change happens, and Knuckles' goes from frustrated curiosity to forlorn acceptance. That's okay to me.

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I like Sonic Spinball and Sonic 3d Blast.

And not just for nostalgia reasons, but I genuinely like both, In fact I have managed to play both recently and they still hold up, in my opinion.

I'd rather play them over SATBK, SASR or Sonic 06 Any day.

I mean, Sonic 3d Blast may not have the best controls of the couple, but still, both games stick to the sonic formula pretty well (sonic fights robotnik in order to save the world)

So i'm very fond of those two games... =) 

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Yeah, I agree. But, do you see how much more mileage they got out of them, by approaching them in a completely different way (more in regards to Black Knight, over Secret Rings)? Not only were the Knights playable, but they actually felt like they mattered in the plot, and belonged there.

I'm not saying to completely throw out what's already been established (or maybe I am? I don't effin' know). But, maybe it wouldn't hurt to reconsider the characters' normal roles and how they're typically treated and approaded?

that's mainly because its a story centered around King Arthur and not having the Knights of the Round be important would have been extremely weird. But its like...that won't really work in a main series game. 

Like I said, you need to stop trying to contrive ways for the characters to fit into the story and starting wondering if said character is needed for the first place. If you feel you have to add a character to something, it just feels awkward to me.

 

To be fair, Knuckles' questions amounted to why he, of all people, had to be stuck with this job and what really happened to his people. He gets involved in the events and sees through Tikal's flashbacks some fucked up things, but at the end of the day no one character actually understood the entire extent of the backstory. So after that, what can you do aside from conclude that maybe some things are just better left unanswered? A main character doesn't necessarily need to grow for the better so much as have an arc where a change happens, and Knuckles' goes from frustrated curiosity to forlorn acceptance. That's okay to me.

I can agree with this, but I do admit I would have liked to get some reaction out of Chaos towards Knuckles, or Tikal to interact with him directly. When you think about it, Knuckles arguably could have played as big a role in the plot as Sonic himself given all of the crap happening.

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To be fair, Knuckles' questions amounted to why he, of all people, had to be stuck with this job and what really happened to his people. He gets involved in the events and sees through Tikal's flashbacks some fucked up things, but at the end of the day no one character actually understood the entire extent of the backstory. So after that, what can you do aside from conclude that maybe some things are just better left unanswered? A main character doesn't necessarily need to grow for the better so much as have an arc where a change happens, and Knuckles' goes from frustrated curiosity to forlorn acceptance. That's okay to me.

Acceptance is definitely fine, but the character needs to find a new purpose, I think. He needs to go to the next level.

Say what you want about Shadow, but he went from being just Sonic's evil doppelganger to being an agent for a peacekeeping organization. I'd like to see other characters treated the same way, instead of just being centerpieces for a new plot, and then completely pushed to the side after they've had their 15 seconds in the spotlight.

that's mainly because its a story centered around King Arthur and not having the Knights of the Round be important would have been extremely weird. But its like...that won't really work in a main series game. 

Like I said, you need to stop trying to contrive ways for the characters to fit into the story and starting wondering if said character is needed for the first place. If you feel you have to add a character to something, it just feels awkward to me.

How is making Knuckles a treasure-hunter (something that's already been heavily hinted at and shown in other games and material) contrived, though? Characters should be able to grow and acquire new motivations, so they can remain relevant and keep up with new plots. (Again, I think Shadow is a fine example of this).

The games already plop Knuckles into things willy-nilly, with no justification. All I'm saying is that they should start providing proper justification for it.

Edited by Chaos Controller
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To be fair, Knuckles' questions amounted to why he, of all people, had to be stuck with this job and what really happened to his people. He gets involved in the events and sees through Tikal's flashbacks some fucked up things, but at the end of the day no one character actually understood the entire extent of the backstory. So after that, what can you do aside from conclude that maybe some things are just better left unanswered? A main character doesn't necessarily need to grow for the better so much as have an arc where a change happens, and Knuckles' goes from frustrated curiosity to forlorn acceptance. That's okay to me.

That didn't stop people like MatPat from figuring out what's up with FNaF.

But I can see why Knux just forgettting about that stuff anyway but it would've been more interesting for Knux to figure out what happened all those years ago and the aftermath and such, a life journey or something of the like. Instead we got what's pretty much was Big's story and overall feels like a waste of time when they could've done so much more, atleast the life journey thing can be a start on Knuckles' first taste of adventure and mystery and such that can be recalled back to Zero Gravity. 

I don't need Knuckles to have a character arc but atleast make his story worthwhile to play through. 

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I can agree with this, but I do admit I would have liked to get some reaction out of Chaos towards Knuckles, or Tikal to interact with him directly. When you think about it, Knuckles arguably could have played as big a role in the plot as Sonic himself given all of the crap happening.

Eh. If you wanted, I guess the most appropriate thing would have been perhaps Chaos reacting towards Knuckles in a "Hey, I didn't kill all of you" kind of way (although to be fair there is a boss fight between the two), but considering Chaos was intent on simply destroying everything because fuck the world, one can argue that Knuckles was pretty irrelevant to Chaos in his blind state of rage anyway. After all, it's not like he was the one who ordered that army to advance or was one of the soldiers. At that point in time it didn't really matter to Chaos who you were- just that you needed to die. Knuckles isn't special in that regard.

Acceptance is definitely fine, but the character needs to find a new purpose, I think. He needs to go to the next level.
Say what you want about Shadow, but he went from being just Sonic's evil doppelganger to being an agent for a peacekeeping organization. I'd like to see other characters treated the same way, instead of just being centerpieces for a new plot, and then completely pushed to the side after they've had their 15 seconds in the spotlight.

None of this really seems like a necessity so much as a desire. It's nice seeing characters change and grow, but not everyone needs to have a succession of epiphanies and learn something new every single time. That's a nice approximation of real life; we get into habits and prefer to stay in those habits. We're not all the chosen one. Note that I'm not against Knuckles ever developing past his guardian role if Sega actually wanted to do that, but in the context of SA1 I'm arguing that Knuckles having a character arc where he simply comes to accept his lot in life after having an incomplete experience isn't actually bad writing.

That didn't stop people like MatPat from figuring out what's up with FNaF.

But I can see why Knux just forgettting about that stuff anyway but it would've been more interesting for Knux to figure out what happened all those years ago and the aftermath and such, a life journey or something of the like. Instead we got what's pretty much was Big's story and overall feels like a waste of time when they could've done so much more, atleast the life journey thing can be a start on Knuckles' first taste of adventure and mystery and such that can be recalled back to Zero Gravity. 

I don't need Knuckles to have a character arc but atleast make his story worthwhile to play through. 

Why wasn't Knuckles' story worthwhile to play through? He's frustrated that he doesn't understand his past, gets swept in dangerous events that hint at something bigger and more sinister but which he can't be expected to fully comprehend due to how ultimately small he is in the grand scheme of things and limited in his point of view is as a single individual, which not only ties nicely into the whole "six unique viewpoints" gimmick of the game but is probably the most realistic story of the bunch considering the circumstances. After this, he comes to realize that he doesn't understand everything about his past and probably ever won't, but that that's okay. He gains acceptance and peace at that point. I don't see the issue in him not having some explosive epiphany of understanding and change. Fiction doesn't need to do that with every character all the time.

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None of this really seems like a necessity so much as a desire. It's nice seeing characters change and grow, but not everyone needs to have a succession of epiphanies and learn something new every single time. That's a nice approximation of real life; we get into habits and prefer to stay in those habits. We're not all the chosen one. Note that I'm not against Knuckles ever developing past his guardian role if Sega actually wanted to do that, but in the context of SA1 I'm arguing that Knuckles having a character arc where he simply comes to accept his lot in life after having an incomplete experience isn't actually bad writing.

Oh, no, it definitely isn't a necessity or anything. It's just something I'd personally like to see toyed with. Knuckles doesn't have to go through a life-changing journey all the time. But, it would be nice for him to have greater stakes in the story than just, "Oh, you know, I'm Sonic's buddy. That's why I'm here." Knuckles is far more interesting than that, and he deserves better, I think.

And yeah, SA1's plot totally works as a self-contained little story. I just would like to see more is all. Sonic Chronicles was a great place to go with him.

Edited by Chaos Controller
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