Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Regen]

I think what Sonikku's trying to say is that she doesn't want Sonic to get overwhelmed by his fifty five billion friends. In games like Heroes and 06 he clearly lost some of the spotlight. In Heroes, Sonic was just kind of there whilst Chaotix and Shadow had more relevance to the plot. In 06 his story was almost completely pointless, it was Shadow and Silver who had the real plots. 

Adventure, despite its many flaws, handled the Sonic and Co situation well. Sonic was clearly the star, he dominated the game but it seemed fitting. In Adventure 2, Sonic and Shadow were lead protagonists. In Heroes, Sonic started to completely fall from the limelight into irrelevance. I think that's what she's getting at.

Thing is, Sonic Team went from one extreme to the other. They are now so paranoid of Sonic's friends that we don't even get to play as them when it makes logical sense, like Sonic Colours and Lost World's multiplayer. Instead we get different coloured Sonic's. LOL. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by Regen

[Lord-Dreamerz]

I think what Sonikku's trying to say is that she doesn't want Sonic to get overwhelmed by his fifty five billion friends. In games like Heroes and 06 he clearly lost some of the spotlight. In Heroes, Sonic was just kind of there whilst Chaotix and Shadow had more relevance to the plot. In 06 his story was almost completely pointless, it was Shadow and Silver who had the real plots. 

Adventure, despite its many flaws, handled the Sonic and Co situation well. Sonic was clearly the star, he dominated the game but it seemed fitting. In Adventure 2, Sonic and Shadow were lead protagonists. In Heroes, Sonic started to completely fall from the limelight into irrelevance. I think that's what she's getting at.

Thing is, Sonic Team went from one extreme to the other. They are now so paranoid of Sonic's friends that we don't even get to play as them when it makes logical sense, like Sonic Colours and Lost World's multiplayer. Instead we get different coloured Sonic's. LOL. 

Billions of friends? I don't think so. There hasn't actually been more then maybe a few dozen characters that had any real importance in some from or another across the whole game series the last I knew. And to nitpick a bit more… a handful of the characters are not even friends to Sonic… such as Shadow.

And it’s not the other characters fault if Sonic is to much pushed to the side or written poorly in a game where he is still playable… that’s just bad writing and or planning on the developers part.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Guys, I think I know what Sonikku's saying, much as I disagree with how she'd prefer to go about things.

Sonic is treated as the basic, the everyman, with no spectacular abilities of his own. Sonic has super speed? So does damn near every character. Meanwhile, Tails can fly (Sonic can't), Knuckles as super strength (Sonic doesn't), Blaze can shoot fire (do I have to explain this one?), Shadow has at least 3 different Chaos powers (Sonic only knows one), and Silver has telekinesis (notice a pattern?)

Everyone else has an ability that overshadows Sonic. Funny enough, this has been something I've called out in the past and suggested we give Sonic a comparable ability to stand as strongly as these other characters, but people were too conservative in wanting to leave Sonic the way he is (while some ironically complained about the other characters having these abilities on top of that).

I can understand why Sonikku would say what she's been saying.

However, Sonniku, rather than have Sonic take everyone else's talents which risks diminishing characters like Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow - and in turn, upsetting people who like these characters - I'd make a different suggestion: why not give Sonic newer abilities to match them instead? Abilities that no other character has? For example, Sonic has been strongly associated with the wind, and no other character has any natural wind-based powers. In fact, SA2 sorta gave us one: Sonic Wind, which is a pity it's never been used again.

Or you can bolster Sonic's older abilities. Anyone remember the instashield? Make that shit reflect enemy attacks back at the enemy.

Just a thought.

[Nepenthe]

The argument isn't about the number of friends or the writing. The argument is focused the cast's abilities and whether or not their degrees of separation from Sonic automatically make him overshadowed. It's a framing of the issue I find problematic because it seems to say that the only thing inherently worth caring about concerning these characters is their arbitrary superpowers which are malleable from game to game anyway. It also downplays Sonic's abilities as not being all that special which is not only pretty disheartening (even when Sonic is just running, he's still a real badass; how many people flipped their shits at the Unleashed opening when all he did was like three things?) but the fact remains that he probably has the largest movepool of the entire cast to date anyway- praytell how many types of jumps, rolls, boosts, flips, energy blasts, and fucking transformations does Sonic have compared to even the likes of Shadow?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I think what Sonikku's trying to say is that she doesn't want Sonic to get overwhelmed by his fifty five billion friends. In games like Heroes and 06 he clearly lost some of the spotlight. In Heroes, Sonic was just kind of there whilst Chaotix and Shadow had more relevance to the plot. In 06 his story was almost completely pointless, it was Shadow and Silver who had the real plots. 

Adventure, despite its many flaws, handled the Sonic and Co situation well. Sonic was clearly the star, he dominated the game but it seemed fitting. In Adventure 2, Sonic and Shadow were lead protagonists. In Heroes, Sonic started to completely fall from the limelight into irrelevance. I think that's what she's getting at.

Thing is, Sonic Team went from one extreme to the other. They are now so paranoid of Sonic's friends that we don't even get to play as them when it makes logical sense, like Sonic Colours and Lost World's multiplayer. Instead we get different coloured Sonic's. LOL. 

Guys, I think I know what Sonikku's saying, much as I disagree with how she'd prefer to go about things.

Sonic is treated as the basic, the everyman, with no spectacular abilities of his own. Sonic has super speed? So does damn near every character. Meanwhile, Tails can fly (Sonic can't), Knuckles as super strength (Sonic doesn't), Blaze can shoot fire (do I have to explain this one?), Shadow has at least 3 different Chaos powers (Sonic only knows one), and Silver has telekinesis (notice a pattern?)

Everyone else has an ability that overshadows Sonic. Funny enough, this has been something I've called out in the past and suggested we give Sonic a comparable ability to stand as strongly as these other characters, but people were too conservative in wanting to leave Sonic the way he is (while some ironically complained about the other characters having these abilities on top of that).

I can understand why Sonikku would say what she's been saying.

However, Sonniku, rather than have Sonic take everyone else's talents which risks diminishing characters like Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow - and in turn, upsetting people who like these characters - I'd make a different suggestion: why not give Sonic newer abilities to match them instead? Abilities that no other character has? For example, Sonic has been strongly associated with the wind, and no other character has any natural wind-based powers. In fact, SA2 sorta gave us one: Sonic Wind, which is a pity it's never been used again.

Or you can bolster Sonic's older abilities. Anyone remember the instashield? Make that shit reflect enemy attacks back at the enemy.

Just a thought.

Exactly thats what I mean. Im sorry to rant on this and annoy other people but it makes me sad that Sonic can never have awesome ablties on his own. But yet the friends are allowed to. Who cares about running fast when you can fly or chaos control? Why is it not OK for Sonic to have cool powers in a solo game but OK for the friends to take the light from Sonic with their better ablties? I dont get it. Thats the biggest problem with Sonic 06 and Sonic Adventure 2 and also Sonic Advance series. I hate how Sonic was treated like shit in the games and everyone else was better then him.

All I wanted as for my favorite character to be equal to everyone. Stop shoving him in the basic box so that everyone else is better. Give him some respect and some cool stuff to.

 

[Zaysho]

 

Exactly thats what I mean. Im sorry to rant on this and annoy other people but it makes me sad that Sonic can never have awesome ablties on his own. But yet the friends are allowed to. Who cares about running fast when you can fly or chaos control? Why is it not OK for Sonic to have cool powers in a solo game but OK for the friends to take the light from Sonic with their better ablties? I dont get it. Thats the biggest problem with Sonic 06 and Sonic Adventure 2 and also Sonic Advance series. I hate how Sonic was treated like shit in the games and everyone else was better then him.

All I wanted as for my favorite character to be equal to everyone. Stop shoving him in the basic box so that everyone else is better. Give him some respect and some cool stuff to.

 

Nobody is shoving Sonic in "the basic box." Stop saying people are trying to treat Sonic like shit because it simply isn't true.

Nobody has said Sonic can't have cool powers. As Nepenthe points out, Sonic has the largest movepool of the entire cast, and he's shown to be the most adaptable to virtually any situation. He can transform with no ill effects, either with the Wisps or even when exposed to something as terrible as Dark Gaia energy. His super speed is incredibly versatile and can be used to do things like parkour and he can even shoot himself around in the air like a missile. He picked up swordsmanship in... what, a day? He figured out Chaos Control immediately (albeit he was desperate)? He picked up Extreme Gear quickly.  He can make use of elemental shields in ways no one else can. He has unique upgrades in SA2 like the bounce bracelet and Magic Hand, not to mention his Sonic Wind attack, that sets him apart from Shadow. His whole body, without upgrades or power ups, is already a formidable weapon, as seen in Super Smash Bros. and even just the regular series. He's shown to be resourceful and quick thinking. He's arguably the most flexible character of the entire franchise (and for good reason) in ways the rest of the cast cannot match. By the time of Generations, he could take out Perfect Chaos without transforming. Sonic has a lot going on whereas the rest of the cast is rather specialized.

Sonic is already extraordinary. How do you not see that?

I will say I agree, let's enhance his abilities further, make use of things that haven't been used much, like his wind powers. Bolster what's there, but it's ridiculous to say he's being diminished if the other characters show off their unique abilities, too.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Zaysho

[Muscles Maximum]

Seriously, what Zaysho is saying is right. Sonic's easily the most versatile and adept character in the series. Beautifully put.

[Bowbowis]

I definitely see where Sonikku is coming from. I think that one way to help alleviate the problem would be to set up the move-sets and control schemes more consistently so that each button is mapped to moves with similar functions for each character with maybe one or two buttons mapped to more unique actions.

 

Here's one possibility for how things could be structured things more consistently:

A* = Jump/Air Action: Sonic has the Homing Attack, Tails flies, and Knuckles glides.

X = Attack/Air Attack: Sonic uses the somersault/bounce, Tails throws/drops bombs, Knuckles has punches and the Drill Claw.

B = Dash Action: Sonic Spindashs, Tails has the Tailspin (possibly reworked into something like Wind Waker's Hurricane spin sans dizziness), Knux has the Screwdriver.

Y = Context Action: Sonic has the Light Dash, Tails could have some kind of grappling hook like in Sky Patrol, Knuckles digs.

RT = Special Action: Sonic has Parkour, Tails uses his arm cannon from Battle, Knuckles can pick up and throw things like the Werehog.

 

And here it is in table form if you prefer:

Button	Sonic	Tails	Knuckles
A	Jump/H. Attack (Air)	Jump/Fly (Air)	Jump/Glide (Air)
X	Somersault/Bounce (Air)	Bomb Throw/Drop (Air)	Punch/Drill Claw (Air)
B	Spindash	Tailspin	Screwdriver
Y	Light Dash	Grappling Hook	Dig
RT	Parkour	Arm Cannon	Grab

*The button lables used here are based on the Xbox controller layout

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Nobody is shoving Sonic in "the basic box." Stop saying people are trying to treat Sonic like shit because it simply isn't true.

Nobody has said Sonic can't have cool powers. As Nepenthe points out, Sonic has the largest movepool of the entire cast, and he's shown to be the most adaptable to virtually any situation. He can transform with no ill effects, either with the Wisps or even when exposed to something as terrible as Dark Gaia energy. His super speed is incredibly versatile and can be used to do things like parkour and he can even shoot himself around in the air like a missile. He picked up swordsmanship in... what, a day? He figured out Chaos Control immediately (albeit he was desperate)? He picked up Extreme Gear quickly.  He can make use of elemental shields in ways no one else can. He has unique upgrades in SA2 like the bounce bracelet and Magic Hand, not to mention his Sonic Wind attack, that sets him apart from Shadow. His whole body, without upgrades or power ups, is already a formidable weapon, as seen in Super Smash Bros. and even just the regular series. He's shown to be resourceful and quick thinking. He's arguably the most flexible character of the entire franchise (and for good reason) in ways the rest of the cast cannot match. By the time of Generations, he could take out Perfect Chaos without transforming. Sonic has a lot going on whereas the rest of the cast is rather specialized.

Sonic is already extraordinary. How do you not see that?

I will say I agree, let's enhance his abilities further, make use of things that haven't been used much, like his wind powers. Bolster what's there, but it's ridiculous to say he's being diminished just because the other characters have their own unique abilities, too.

When you put it like that he is amazing and part of why hes my favorite character because he expends his superhero stuffs. 

[Komodin]

When you put it like that he is amazing and part of why hes my favorite character because he expends his superhero stuffs. 

The thing is: here's where the current problem with the way the stories are written have been situated. Sonic showcases his awesomeness and flexibility just fine, but his supporting cast--even someone like Tails--have been made more one-note and ineffectual. This is, at best, hardly a better situation that the thing during the Heroes-'06 trilogy where Sonic really has been cast aside for the most part.

The series can do far better than either of these options.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

The thing is: here's where the current problem with the way the stories are written have been situated. Sonic showcases his awesomeness and flexibility just fine, but his supporting cast--even someone like Tails--have been made more one-note and ineffectual. This is, at best, hardly a better situation that the thing during the Heroes-'06 trilogy where Sonic really has been cast aside for the most part.

The series can do far better than either of these options.

I agree. I do want them to be more there even the homing missle thing was bad. I dont know if I am ready for it but I welcome them to be playable. 

[StaticMania]

I've been thinking about this and I'm not seeing how Sonic's basic-ness is a problem.

Sonic getting shoved out of the spotlight in the stories is one thing, but in game-play this never happened.

Like in the Sonic Advance games or any games with multiple playable characters. Specifically in the Sonic Advance games, the only things that make playing as Tails or Knuckles better is because they can traverse levels easier. When it comes to abilities, they all have the same amount of abilities...but Sonic has a few more like air dashing or homing attacking(grinding in Adv. 1)

This setup has almost always been the same from Sonic 3 onwards, Sonic has always had the most ability during game-play, while everyone else has just had one move that makes them better at traversing platforming obstacles, like flying, gliding, or high jumps.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I understand where you're coming from, Sonikku. I used to think it was rather weird how, in the past, it sometimes seemed like other characters' have all Sonic's abilities plus some more, and the abilities Sonic had that others didn't were relatively minor. At least, that's the way it seems.

But in reality, despite the fact that other characters may have special abilities like flying or gliding, Sonic is pretty much always my favorite character to play. What he does, he does better than other characters. Even in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, where Knuckles has cool gliding and climbing and Tails has flying and whatnot, I prefer playing Sonic, even though Knuckles is my favorite dang character and he has special abilities. Sonic's faster speed and higher jump really do make a difference, as do his special Shield abilities.

And don't get me started on the Adventures. Sonic's homing attack is immensely helpful and many times more fun to use than gliding or climbing. Ironically, it makes him better at defeating enemies than Knuckles. Add to that the fact that Knuckles and Tails can't spindash anymore and Sonic has other exclusive abilities (the light dash, bounce attack, etc.), and he really doesn't get the short end of the stick at all.

Probably the difference is that Sonic's abilities have an amazing flow to them that fits much better with the basic Sonic gameplay than other characters'.

If Sonic has a disadvantage to other characters, it's doesn't show up in gameplay, but only in story terms...but I would definitely argue even that's not the case. After all, in "story terms" other characters usually don't go as fast as Sonic, use as many spin attacks, or do nearly as many cool things in general, really.

There have certainly been times in the past when Sonic's been sidelined, and I definitely don't want that to happen again. He's the main character and my second favorite. But I don't really think you have anything to worry about. Sega has moved very far from that direction.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I hope they dont treat him bad again. Playing Sonic 06 first I love Sonic when I first see him but I was sad when there wasnt enough of him and the game was about him and I play the later games and I got to adventure with Sonic with no interrputions. I want to be able to do that again and if I can then its good

[Zaysho]

(I wanted to respond earlier, but was busy, so sorry if I keep bringing up this discussion)

When you put it like that he is amazing and part of why hes my favorite character because he expends his superhero stuffs. 

My point, Sonikku, is to show you that Sonic has a lot going on and that there is nothing for the other characters to take away. I took issue with the way you phrased things, because you make it sound like the other characters take away something special away from him or are stealing the spotlight, when they're not. They're sharing in it. Big difference.

Sonic is a jack of all trades type of character. He's well-rounded and flexible. The other characters are more specialized. They're still versatile in their own right, but their skills stand out from Sonic's in different ways, which allows them to prove themselves as individuals, but also complement Sonic's expansive moveset. They balance each other out in terms of power, and when it's done right, it works quite well. Just look at how Sonic 3 and Knuckles was structured: All three characters play roughly the same, have the same running speed, and react to the environment in similar ways. However, there's a bit of a trade off. In addition to his speed, Sonic gets shield abilities via the insta-shield and the elemental shields. Tails and Knuckles don't get that, but they can explore the levels in ways Sonic cannot. Tails can swim and fly for short periods of time, going to places neither Sonic nor Knuckles can reach. He is, however, vulnerable when flying or swimming. Knuckles can't jump as high as Sonic, but he can glide (which doubles as an attack in mid-air that Tails can't do), climb walls, and break through to paths not available to the other two.

I can't speak for everyone, but from what I've seen in similar discussions like this, this is what it seems people want when it comes to the other characters. What these characters can bring to the table and how they balance with Sonic. It has nothing to do with who's better or whatever. I'm hoping this has at least makes it easier to understand where people are coming and to see we're not trashing Sonic to spite you or something. I am starting to understand a bit of where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with some things. I like having this discussion because I can refine my arguments and try to make them clearer, but also because I want to talk about the positives of the characters.

 

I definitely see where Sonikku is coming from. I think that one way to help alleviate the problem would be to set up the move-sets and control schemes more consistently so that each button is mapped to moves with similar functions for each character with maybe one or two buttons mapped to more unique actions.

 

Here's one possibility for how things could be structured things more consistently:

A* = Jump/Air Action: Sonic has the Homing Attack, Tails flies, and Knuckles glides.

X = Attack/Air Attack: Sonic uses the somersault/bounce, Tails throws/drops bombs, Knuckles has punches and the Drill Claw.

B = Dash Action: Sonic Spindashs, Tails has the Tailspin (possibly reworked into something like Wind Waker's Hurricane spin sans dizziness), Knux has the Screwdriver.

Y = Context Action: Sonic has the Light Dash, Tails could have some kind of grappling hook like in Sky Patrol, Knuckles digs.

RT = Special Action: Sonic has Parkour, Tails uses his arm cannon from Battle, Knuckles can pick up and throw things like the Werehog.

I like this, actually. It's quite similar to what SA/2 did, and I think it would serve as a good basis, should other characters return, to unify their unique abilities while keeping them distinct for each character.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not sure it's accurate to even call Sonic a "jack-of-all-trades", either. I mean, in the sense that other characters build off of him, sure - like I said before, he's like an basic everyman. But he's a bit odd in that he has moments when he's specialized like everyone else, just...differently.

I don't know. Sonic's just awkward, if anything as far as defining specialist/generalist roles go. Yeah, he's flexible, and everyone builds from his abilities, but at the same time he's not exactly well-rounded and he has specialized skills of his own - instashield, boost/hydroplaning (okay, this one's not entirely fair, but you get my drift), heck having multiple forms depending on the circumstances. Nevermind the basic skills he lacks which a jack-of-all-trades kind of character wouldn't - swimming would at least be an average skill for a jack-of-all-trades, but Sonic can't even do it at all without something assisting that (like a float-jacket).

What do we even call that?

Edited October 31, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Zaysho]

I'm not sure it's accurate to even call Sonic a "jack-of-all-trades", either. I mean, in the sense that other characters build off of him, sure - like I said before, he's like an basic everyman. But he's a bit odd in that he has moments when he's specialized like everyone else, just...differently.

I don't know. Sonic's just awkward, if anything as far as defining specialist/generalist roles go. Yeah, he's flexible, and everyone builds from his abilities, but at the same time he's not exactly well-rounded and he has specialized skills of his own - instashield, boost/hydroplaning (okay, this one's not entirely fair, but you get my drift), heck having multiple forms depending on the circumstances. Nevermind the basic skills he lacks which a jack-of-all-trades kind of character wouldn't - swimming would at least be an average skill for a jack-of-all-trades, but Sonic can't even do it at all without something assisting that (like a float-jacket).

What do we even call that?

 

Ah, I see what you mean. I was mostly thinking of thinking of he gets dropped into new situations and picks up new skills and applies them to his natural abilities (such as mixing his sword fighting with this spin attacks). I also thought about how he shares skills with other characters, but doesn't necessarily have a mastery of them, at least to the same level, like others (e.g. his Chaos Control versus Shadow's). I suppose I was thinking of him more in relation to other characters and how Sonic Team affords him more flexibility. Perhaps jack-of-all-trades wasn't the right word, it just seemed to fit with the rest of my ranting

True, though. Looking at it again, he is as specialized since he can get around things a more well-rounded character wouldn't have to, such as adapting his spin jump to get through water instead of having to learn how to swim.

I guess he's just flexible. As I'm thinking about it, I'm now feeling in all this I've somehow downplayed the other characters while talking about Sonic. Oops.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Zaysho

[Kuzu]

Sonic's mostly specialized in the 2D games where he has the highest jump and the ability to use the insta-shield; how much that differentiates him from Tails & Knuckles is up in the air. 

Its the 3D games I kinda don't feel he's specialized enough in, but then the 3D games are kind of poor examples for everyone else too.

[Dizcrybe]

I think the main point here is the inclusion of other playable characters does not inherently diminish Sonic's role or abilities.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Sonic only playable is my prefence for the games but I do not mind others playable if I am not forced to play as them. There are some characters I like playing as well 3 come to mind other then Sonic and I wouldnt mind playing with them again. For right now I want to see more of what Sonic can do and play a game with him with his friends helping him. 

[Dee Dude]

I can understand why Sonic should have his own specialized abilities since everybody deserves to be unique in his/her own way and Sonic himself is surely no exception. He could utilize many moves that he could use that Shadow couldn't such as the Insta-Shield as stated above or maybe he could use the Sonic Overdrive from SH as his own move, granted i can't really think of any other move Sonic can use that Shadow can't but you get my point.

But it's not uncommon for the main protagonist to the balanced/basic type of character you always play as many video games, but you think about it this way: It makes for the main character to the "boring" all-around character like Mario in Smash Bros and others etc because it can good for the average player to play cool and balanced in a video game. But like ChaosSupreme said, its kind of a stretch to call Sonic of all characters a-jack-of-all-trades unless you go by his series perspective.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Dan-Dude

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Of course I want Sonic to be unique to. Thats part of why I like the Sonic only games. 

[Zaysho]

Of course I want Sonic to be unique to. Thats part of why I like the Sonic only games. 

Sonic being part of an ensemble wouldn't affect his ability to be unique, though. He has his abilities, the other characters have theirs.

I know I'm discounting Sonic Team's obvious incompetence, but even looking at games that had multiple playable characters, like S3&K, Sonic Adventure, Black Knight, the Advance series, the Rush games, etc., the other characters just did their thing and Sonic did his. The real issue here is that Sonic Team doesn't know what to do with the other characters to incorporate them into the games, and balance them, anymore. It has nothing to do with the character themselves.

I think Black Knight did playable characters the best in years, honestly, making them optional, but unique, and it didn't matter if you played as them or not to complete the story. If we got another game that handled them that way, I'd be happy, because ensemble games are my preference and it wouldn't be stepping on the toes of people who only prefer Sonic.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yes thats what I want for them to be optinal and I dot have to be force to play with them or be force to play with him to play with Sonic beating up a boss

[Shadowlax]

Yes thats what I want for them to be optinal and I dot have to be force to play with them or be force to play with him to play with Sonic beating up a boss

Eh i'm going to be honest. Technically they usually are optional. 

If you care enough about the story to want to see all of it, play as other characters, if you don't then don't . If that conflicts... to bad. This isn't even exclusive to sonic. A bunch of games do that. I wouldn't mind if friends came back, the complaint that you can't play as sonic through the whole narrative is.. stupid. Play the sonic part if you just like sonic. If you value story play the rest. Tough chilidogs.