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Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

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On 4/28/2018 at 3:02 PM, Skull Leader said:

*I personally think that the introduction of the spindash took away some of the challenge that existed in Sonic 1 where speed was a reward for players that not only demostrated skill, but understood how the game's momentum mechanic worked.

This is probably an unpopular opinion but I rather much agree with it. Mastering building speed and how to utilize the roll is pretty much meaningless in the face of the Spin Dash. That said though, I do believe there is a benefit to it that I'll address in a moment.

13 hours ago, Skull Leader said:

I don't think that making things easy can lead to a rewarding experience.

For example, who doesn't remember how in Sonic 1's Green Hill there were these loops that at the top had a monitor with a 1up that apparently looked out of reach for Sonic?

While with a character like Tails you can simply tap the jump button to make him fly and reach that high spot, it doesn't have that feel of accomplishment as when the player solves the question of "how do I use Sonic's speed to jump high enough to reach that spot?"

Now enter the spindash, a movement that many players can't imagine being without on their 2-D games. Frankly, I feel that some of the challenge that the first Sonic game for the Genesis/Megadrive had was lost, as now players could simply activate this move that gives them a near-instant boost of speed that they did not earn to clear obstacles like the loops instead of actually building speed on their own.

Enter Amy Rose in Sonic Advance.

The irony here is that now the roles are reversed, and the question changes to "How do I use Amy's different jumps to gain speed?"

And that is why I find Amy with that particular gameplay that lacks rolling or spindashing to be more rewarding IMO and personal experience when speedrunning (or just playing normally), as the results are reflection of my own ability as a player, as well as how the use of jumps instead of rolling for me is a more engaged approach that allows me to better appreciate the perks of the Genesis style physics thanks to constantly interacting with them, while with Sonic (or other characters derivated from him like Tails and Knuckles), all you do is just press down and watch them roll downhill.

While I agree with the top half of this the second half brings to mind a phrase from the fighting game community that I think is appropriate for an all ages platformer like Sonic; easy to pick up and play but difficult to master. When I look at the original formula it is extremely simple and extremely intuitive making it one of the all time easiest to to pick up and play game I know of. Mastering said gameplay style though takes a much longer amount of time and practice though it is very rewarding to do so. However, for selling as many copies of the game as you can you want the game to be even more accessible and as much as it lowers the ceiling for mastery the Spin Dash accomplishes that easily. Of course without creating levels with a plethora of challenges, obstacles, and secrets that require mastering the Spin Dash and understanding how it reacts to the physics and slopes results in a dull experience that minimizes interactivity and removes any need for the player to experiment.

 

Now, more addressing the Adv.1 gameplay of Amy directly, while I have never played the game due to it only ever releasing once on a handheld I never owned (a testament to Sonic 2 which has been re-released numerous times, has a remaster, is the top selling game in franchise history, and was the debut of the Spin Dash) I have seen plenty of complaints of her gameplay being difficult, unintuitive, and too drastically different from the others as to come across as counter-intuitive. I've also seen counterarguments which have always usually just boiled down to insulting the players for finding Amy difficult or generally saying "git gud". To be fair I've also seen others describe playing as Amy as playing hard mode, but have seen interesting counters from that from parents or those with younger sisters who want to play as Amy who say that her difficulty of play is an unnecessary barrier which hurts Amy's popularity due to her being inaccessible. In short, she does not fit the mold of easy to pick up and play but difficult to master. Instead she fits more the mold of difficult to pick up and play, and even more difficult to master. For a grown man like yourself who has been playing games for a long time this may not be a problem but one has to consider the core demographic of the game; children. Combined with SEGA's desperateness to get new fans even at the cost of older long time fans and becomes little wonder that the gameplay style has not seen the light of day again since arguable (due to gimmick) Adv.3.

 

Looking at the above though, I can actually see why the hold X to win method of the boost games is so popular and why they have so stringently stuck to Sonic only gameplay; the inherent simplicity makes it easy to sell as nearly anyone can pick up and play a boost game.

 

On 4/28/2018 at 3:02 PM, Skull Leader said:

*Having played Sonic the Fighters not long ago, I realized just how much charm this franchise lost when ST decided to take things more seriously, particularly with stories like SA2, which given the implied cartoony aspect of the characters' designs, feels so very out of place.

I have no argument about the franchise loosing it's charm from SA1 on, but I disagree that taking things more seriously should have been the cause of that. If anything, I feel not taking the world of the franchise seriously and turning it into a meta-joke-fest has hurt the franchise more than helped it. Further, I think the OVA is a nice balance of a serious story with risks without sacrificing the more playful nature of the franchise. It's why I've enjoyed Sonic Mania Adventures so far as the world of the franchise is taken seriously and as such the in world antics have a naturalness to them that doesn't require you to know the latest meme and point of reference for any and all self-deprecating jokes which are in overabundance. Still though, if Sonic Adventure had been an evolution of Fighters graphic style it would have been a lot more charming.

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Sonic Forces had the best representation of Silver. I really enjoyed the idea of Silver being an optimist and a realist, which is a huge step-up from how he was characterized in 06, the Rivals series, and even the Archie comics. He isn't that one goofy/dorky kid who constantly gets his information wrong about a traitor, nor is he the whiny/naive imbecile who got kicked in the back of the head like a wimp. The Silver that I saw in Sonic Forces was much more mature and competent than what I've seen from past games/comics. When the IDW comics introduces Silver, I truly hope that the writers stick with this characterization, because I don't want him to be any different than how he is now. 

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11 minutes ago, AngelSlayerN64 said:

Sonic Forces had the best representation of Silver.The Silver that I saw in Sonic Forces was much more mature and competent than what I've seen from past games/comics.

Eh, true. I still like how the Archie Comics empathized his initial appearances, though..

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6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, true. I still like how the Archie Comics empathized his initial appearances, though..

I'll admit, he did get better during the Post-Reboot era, but I saw so little of him during that time which made me realize that he didn't leave much of an impression. If he appeared in more issues after The Silver Age, my stance on his character would've been much more positive.

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I don't think there's anything wrong with Sonic's character from Colors on. Primarily since before maybe Secret Rings he barely had one.

I prefer Sonic as a wisecracking snarker. It better than his previous potrayl as "hero".

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Really comin' back with new outlooks and opinions on the franchise every time. I should really form a solid opinion on the series and shut up.

-Most of the Archie characters are annoying.

Yes, I don't really like most of the Archie cast, especially the Penders-era characters. Sure, we had a good one, like Sally or Rotor every so often, but most of them were way too tacky and Deviantart-y for me, like Scourge the Hedgehog or Juli-Su the Echidna. I must say, the villains were top-notch tho.

-The GameGear games don't suck.

Personally, I prefer the Gear titles over the other Classic Sonic games, just because how different they feel. Sure, they may not have the polish, but I have to say, the boss designs, the zone concepts, and just the feel in general is just way more appealing to me for some reason. And on topic of the GameGear games...

-Sonic Drift and it's sequel aren't all that awful.

To be honest, for 8-bit portable racing games, those things are quite nifty, and don't play all that bad, not to mention that they have a pretty decent selection of characters, tracks, and power-ups. Of course, the "Watered-down Mario Kart" and "Sonic in a car, boo-hoo" arguments are here, but hey, recent practices tell a completely different story

-Swords and werehogs>Wisps

Let's be real, I'm sick of those little annoying things. I don't care if they "Enhance the platforming gameplay" or feel like Mario power-ups, at least the swords and Werehog looked like something powerful, you know, something which a power-up/transformation should do. Not to mention that at least they looked like something in-universe, and not like the aliens from Chicken Little.

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22 minutes ago, A person, that exists said:

Not to mention that at least they looked like something in-universe, and not like the aliens from Chicken Little.

Holy shit, some of them do look like that! :lol:

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6 hours ago, StaticMania said:

You're primarily thinking of Nex Gen, dude...

Sonic definitely had a character before that...

Oh, yeah so much personality. Like liking his friends and...

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On 1 May 2018 at 5:40 PM, Sonic Fan J said:

I have no argument about the franchise loosing it's charm from SA1 on, but I disagree that taking things more seriously should have been the cause of that. If anything, I feel not taking the world of the franchise seriously and turning it into a meta-joke-fest has hurt the franchise more than helped it. Further, I think the OVA is a nice balance of a serious story with risks without sacrificing the more playful nature of the franchise. It's why I've enjoyed Sonic Mania Adventures so far as the world of the franchise is taken seriously and as such the in world antics have a naturalness to them that doesn't require you to know the latest meme and point of reference for any and all self-deprecating jokes which are in overabundance. Still though, if Sonic Adventure had been an evolution of Fighters graphic style it would have been a lot more charming.

I think it's a moderation and being able to add depth and emotional weight to a universe without completely changing it's identity. A recurring problem with the Sonic franchises' attempts at being 'dark' is that it often tries to latch onto genres that are the current trend and completely transform the entire backdrop accordingly. Sonic felt like a alien within the SA universe, which was more an anime universe with sci-elements, while Next Gen was even worse with it's photo realistic universe and a backstory that could have easily replaced Sonic with any other protagonist.

Darkness is subjective. I mean one could argue some Winnie the Pooh works are good attempts at making the franchise 'dark' (eg. Pooh's Grand Adventure) just it's done in a subtle way without changing any of the usual mythos or it's target audience, while Sonic has a tendency to do it the superficial pretentious way, grittier genre changes, character deaths, and all that convolution.

Like you said there are exceptions like the OVA which do just try to work off of the mythos and aesthetics of the original games as at least a base and give them more weight, but a lot of the times, the creative team almost come off as ashamed to be working on a Sonic the Hedgehog story and not some high brow adult fantasy. Sonic looks fine the way it is thank you. Build off of that.

-Sonic Drift and it's sequel aren't all that awful.

To be honest, for 8-bit portable racing games, those things are quite nifty, and don't play all that bad, not to mention that they have a pretty decent selection of characters, tracks, and power-ups. Of course, the "Watered-down Mario Kart" and "Sonic in a car, boo-hoo" arguments are here, but hey, recent practices tell a completely different story

Sonic Drift 1 was bland but playable. Sonic Drift 2 would have been pretty decent if it wasn't for the annoying rubber band AI.

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Sonic really seems to latch on to trends regardless of what tone he’s in honestly.

Lost Worlds for instances tried emulate more from Mario and Boom goes the current trend of sit-com cartoons that try to milk humor when it can.

And don’t get folks started on milking the nostalgia since arguably Generations.

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2 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think it's a moderation and being able to add depth and emotional weight to a universe without completely changing it's identity. A recurring problem with the Sonic franchises' attempts at being 'dark' is that it often tries to latch onto genres that are the current trend and completely transform the entire backdrop accordingly. Sonic felt like a alien within the SA universe, which was more an anime universe with sci-elements, while Next Gen was even worse with it's photo realistic universe and a backstory that could have easily replaced Sonic with any other protagonist.

Darkness is subjective. I mean one could argue some Winnie the Pooh works are good attempts at making the franchise 'dark' (eg. Pooh's Grand Adventure) just it's done in a subtle way without changing any of the usual mythos, while Sonic has a tendency to do it the superficial pretentious way, grittier genre changes, character deaths, and all that convolution.

Like you said there are exceptions like the OVA which do just try to work off of the mythos and aesthetics of the original games as at least a base and give them more weight, but a lot of the times, the creative team almost come off as ashamed to be working on a Sonic the Hedgehog story and not some high brow adult fantasy. Sonic looks fine the way it is thank you. Build off of that.

I think I get what your saying but I may not have been clear with what I was saying. As you pretty much covered it for the most part though let me clarify more the benefit of anyone else reading. When i say take the world seriously, I mean the creative team that is working on it actually considering the world in which they are telling their story. Despite the efforts of Aaron Webber to the contrary, Sonic actually exists (partly my own interpretation of the classics and partly based on the origin story of the franchise)in a functioning world that seems to be based off of the time era between World War 1 and 2 with the industrial revolution as a thematic visual to demonstrate the destructiveness of Eggman's pursuit of his ambitions with sci-fi and fantastical elements sprinkled throughout, not a comedy stage with a desperate comedian trying to stay relevant. Now from Adventure onward the setting became more modern based with less sci-fi elements and almost no sign of Eggman's effect on the world around him (which in turn lessens the ability to perceive him as a threat). Either way neither of these settings are ever used to any effect because the creative teams don't take anything seriously. They ignore the world and even the characters at times and just seem to focus on whatever artistic endeavour they actually want to focus and then make a joke out of Sonic and his world as if they are trying to tell the higher ups that their talent is being wasted on Sonic. Or in short, they have no pride in Sonic and his world and are retaliating in the least conspicuous way possible so as not to undermine their pride as game developers but as a result never take their work on Sonic seriously.

Now for an example of such a world done right (minus the industrial revolution imagery) plus including the self depreciating humor that seems to be overly present in the franchise these; I would direct your attention to Porco Rosso by Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli. The lead character is a pilot who after a certain event found himself with the head of a pig. It is a fairly ripe scenario for a comedy to unfold but is instead mostly played straight throughout the entire movie with who he is as a person and his interactions with those around him taking center stage. The setting is used to show his way of life and how the status quo he has settled into is endangered and what zaniness is throughout the film is almost always balanced back out by what is happening in the world and that is what informs the characters reactions instead of trying to figure out how to squeeze in some unnecessary reference. One of the additional reasons though that I choose Porco Rosso as my example is also because of how Hayao Miyazaki views the film (he hates it because he pretty much went in with no real intention and just let his love of planes take over as he pretty much went wacky) and the professionalism and pride he still put into the work. If Sonic team even had a percentage of as much pride and professionalism, and some degree of awareness to the point that they could work on Sonic's stories seriously (regardless if they were aiming for comedy, adventure, drama, or a mixture of the three) the quality of work we see out of them would likely be amazing.

Hopefully I actually did clarify what I meant now instead of just making things more confusing.

 

As a total aside though partly related to my little rant above, my ideal Sonic world would honestly be a mixture of the elements and atmospheres of Cowboy Bebop, Porco Rosso, and Castle in the Sky by Studio Ghibli with Eggman still being the oblivious, nature destroying, Industrial Revolution themed, childish and charming, super scientific genius whose willful actions and consequences make him the threat he should be without depriving him of what makes him entertaining.

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I think a key here maybe a story and universe that is earnest in handling. People tend to mistake 'dark and serious' for being 'earnest' when in reality you can make even a very light hearted story rather heart felt and meaningful instead of one big gag (though occasionally being open to making fun of it's occasional audacious elements. In moderation).

Maybe that's why some like Mania Adventures so far, because it does seem to be done with some endearment instead of constant 'nudge nudge, are we appealing to you? Nudge, nudge.'

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I'm not really sure how the fandom feels about super transformations. Personally, I love the idea that anyone can use the 7 Chaos Emeralds and become a super version of themselves. I dislike the idea some games seem to imply that male hedgehogs are basically the Saiyans of the Sonic universe and only they can do it. I think the idea that anyone, from Tails, Knuckles and Amy, to goofballs like Big or Cream can go super. I think that's far more interesting, and potentially interesting.

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3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think a key here maybe a story and universe that is earnest in handling. People tend to mistake 'dark and serious' for being 'earnest' when in reality you can make even a very light hearted story rather heart felt and meaningful instead of one big gag (though occasionally being open to making fun of it's occasional audacious elements. In moderation).

Maybe that's why some like Mania Adventures so far, because it does seem to be done with some endearment instead of constant 'nudge nudge, are we appealing to you? Nudge, nudge.'

Earnest in handling is actually a great phrase and probably would have saved me some trouble instead of going through my long explanation. Though when I say serious I'm more referring to say taking your job seriously vs. going to work and goofing off. For example, I feel like that Sonic Team is just goofing off with their work on Sonic instead of taking it seriously. or from merriam-webster.com

Quote

1: in a sincere manner : earnestly 

  • speaking seriously

So as I said you summed it up perfectly.

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There are some times I feel like being able to make fun of the series helps, since let's be frank, the franchise is renowned for it's pretentious moments, and having moments it's self aware of it's own holes lightens that a bit. Sometimes this can be done a clever meaningful way as well, such as character deconstructions (good development isn't always serious). I think this is maybe why Sonic Boom DID hit the point in some elements, just it's NON-STOP nudging and meta mocking took it to a level there was barely much but debris of a real universe. At the same time, a story that tries to take EVERYTHING with a dignified straight face, even some elements that rely on heavy suspension of disbelief, starts to become just as laughable and cringeworthy.

I think this a reason Eggman works better as a clown that is SOMETIMES taken seriously but often regarded as a joke for example, because even the more serious versions of the doctor have the same flaws and arrogance and make incredibly stupid mistakes to circumvent otherwise solid plans. The story works better to ridicule that when it's due, rather than trying to treat him like a fully dreaded mastermind even when he's screwing up, thus he feels less like a botched badly written villain, and more a rounded, entertainingly flawed one.

I think this is also where trying too hard to separate comical from serious characters can also falter (eg. trying to give the likes of Shadow and Sally constant serious dignity even in the face of their narm-y or error prone moments, or limiting the likes of Amy or Knuckles to one note comic relief). The writers can work around their limitations in storytelling and actually use to make more character and mythos building.

I mean sure Knuckles being a dum dum can be annoying, but imagine how much more insufferable it would be if they DIDN'T make fun of how ridiculously gullible he is towards Eggman each time and it was just generic plot induced stupidity instead of a comical trait.

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I don't really agree with the argument that sonic 06 would be a vastly different game if it got some tweaks to fix bugs and such like that. Honestly, I actually do like the game enough as it is and if we could get a version of the game that got rid of the more annoying bugs and glitches, maybe set the speed cap a bit higher and remove amy's segment from the game i'd be pretty darn happy with it. It wouldn't make the game suddenly game of the year or anything like that, but the base game is fun enough to the point where just tweaks like this (and a couple of other minor ones) could really increase the quality in my eyes.

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33 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

There are some times I feel like being able to make fun of the series helps, since let's be frank, the franchise is renowned for it's pretentious moments, and having moments it's self aware of it's own holes lightens that a bit. Sometimes this can be done a clever meaningful way as well, such as character deconstructions (good development isn't always serious). I think this is maybe why Sonic Boom DID hit the point in some elements, just it's NON-STOP nudging and meta mocking took it to a level there was barely much but debris of a real universe.

Poking fun of itself is definitely fine and I always appreciate a good self aware moment when used tastefully (unlike in Colors). As for Boom! I just couldn't get into and I did give it a try but what I look for in Sonic wasn't there (mostly lighthearted globetrotting adventure with the occasional conflict). The non-stop nudging and meta mocking definitely did not help.

34 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think this a reason Eggman works better as a clown that is SOMETIMES taken seriously but often regarded as a joke for example, because even the more serious versions of the doctor have the same flaws and arrogance and make incredibly stupid mistakes to circumvent otherwise solid plans. The story works better to ridicule that rather than trying to treat him like a fully dreaded mastermind.

I agree that Eggman works best when appearing like a harmless clown. Partly because it helps keep a lighthearted tone and also because when you do see the effects of Eggman's actions it encourages you to buckle down and best him to save the day; i.e, getting to Scrap Brain Zone after how wondrous and fantastical the rest of the game is. That sudden and harsh change in environment shows you what you're actually up against and it helps drive the intensity of the coming final confrontation. I also personally can't stand the drop dead serious interpretations of Eggman or really any character as it makes them come across as 1-dimensional and completely fake. Then there is the fact that I actually do accept that Sonic is a children's franchise and dark and gritty should be handled with the utmost of care. Some classic Disney movies would probably provide some good examples of how to handle the tone change though Eggman's personality is usually more in line with the bumbling minions.

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Jafar and Gaston could be considered characters on Eggman's level, since while they are competent and malicious enough to get results and be something of a threat, they are still driven by comical arrogance and pettiness. The story and the characters know they are clowns, threat or not. We also actually spend a reasonable deal of the movie from their perspective, which not only makes them more human and semi-pitiable in spite of their callousness but shows just how their plans concoct through or despite their clownish personalities to make it believable they'd get so far.

Jafar is a key mirror, he is powerful and manipulative, but the story makes obvious he relies as much on some of the equal buffoonishness of the heroes and in the end, despite putting up a good threat, he ends up rather characteristically outsmarted through his ego. Not only is he a believable villain, but his characteristics also help develop the flaws and strengths of the heroes, being gullible or overconfident against him, but still savvy enough to beat him at his own game.

Compare this to say, SatAm's Blast to the Past, where we are only seen a minimal amount of Robotnik's perspective setting things up (mostly just to make him look more evil and cunning) and we are made to believe his rather paper thin ruse would be diabolically manipulative and sneaky enough to fool the almost one dimensionally good and wise King Acorn and Uncle Chuck, who TOTALLY did not hold the idiot ball with all their artillery. Much like Jafar, Robotnik is also incredibly arrogant and driven by petty impulses, but only VERY sporadically is that made fun of, and the show genuinely tries to convey him as a true menace that could keep control of the world for over a decade without much depth into how he could work past his own follies that long. Add to that, the world being a dystopia seems to be totally intentional on his part and he's in perfect control, compared to say Scar from the Lion King, where things are a mess as much due to his own selfish ego meaning things have been discarded and fallen to waste (one could argue Eggman's Bad Futures in Sonic CD even follow this trait, they're robotic, but not in good condition, something's obviously gone wrong).

 

I think what didn't help the games was that for a while I don't think they could handle that balance with how serious they were trying to be taken. I think they worried Eggman was too buffoonish and borderline likeable to act as the final true threat, so always had this terrifying one dimensional monster thing with no relatable entities take over as the last boss.

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I could easily see that, especially since the unification of the brand between Japan and the rest of the world was happening at that point. Where Japan was presented with a relative goofball who just happened to be a threat like he believed himself to be, the rest of the world was always presented only with either the extreme threat angle regardless of anything else or the extreme goof. In a time like that and considering that Sonic is more popular outside of Japan a lot of the things going on at that time start to make since. The funny thing is I don't see why merging the two (not in Japan at least) disparate should have been that hard or why they should have feared it not working. At least here in the states we have the Joker (Batman's arch-nemesis for any who don't know) who is known as the Clown Prince of Crime and is taken seriously in world because of his actions and the consequences they hold. Comparatively I always felt that showing the consequences of Eggman's actions would legitimize him even while he was being a caricaturist villain and is one of the reason's I love the bad futures of Sonic CD. Every time I play and let myself see one of those bad futures it just motivates me more to not just beat Eggman, but stop his plans from taking route all without sacrificing how much he entertains.

 

Just to throw something in that's more on topic, I enjoyed Shadows story in 06 and personally felt that the game was more of a Shadow game and Sonic was tacked on from some incomplete project as a last minute addition. I even go so far as to believe that 06 would have worked better as a stand alone Shadow game without Sonic ever being in it.

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I think it's the problem that the Western location has a tendency to overshill 'dark and edgy' stuff.

Let's take Sonic Forces, it played the 'Eggman as a threat' angle, not to a very depthful degree, but palpable enough. Then the English dub tried tweaking the script to make it more gritty, stuff like adding a longer duration Eggman was in control, and through all that time Sonic's been tortured and Tails had a nervous breakdown. Stuff that just sounded completely laughable and implausible considering the unchanged depiction at face value, and just made the story into a lame attempt at being grim dark.

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