Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Cuz]

Quote

what's worst is that instead of getting interesting new bossfights, we are just getting portings of the Stardust Speedway bossfight almost every time.

 

The stardust speedway fight has been radically re-imagined both times. It was originally just a race, oddly passive for a boss battle, turned into a legit battle in generations and the combi machine sandwiched between phases in Mania is pretty interesting.

[Iko]

2 hours ago, Almar said:

But didn't that happen anyway (Chip, OC)? :^)

And Marine... well a lot of people hated Marine but not because of her competence in building stuff like Tails, more due to her being hyperactive and annoying to most people (I had no problem with her, I found her funny actually).

2 hours ago, Almar said:

Anyway, I'll agree that Cream in many ways comes off as being an attempt to revisit Amy's character from Genesis to Dreamcast (that is, the younger bystander girl who got roped into Sonic and Eggman's war who also can sometimes dispense wisdom) with some Tails thrown in (flight and being less aggressive/boisterous/bratty than Amy).

Probably they used elements of Classic Amy as inspiration source, though with all the differences, the character came out quite different in personality, and completely different in design, also she never tried to replacce Amy in any way, in every game she appears, the two coexist and have different roles/are both playable.

Taking inspiration from other characters is not a crime, Blaze is basically a female Shadwo with some Sonic and Knuckles elements in it, but people love her, and she never tried to replace Shadow at all.

I'd like the Amy vs Cream debate to end once for all but I'm sure it will be brought back again next time, it's been a decade or so and things have not changed.

2 hours ago, Almar said:

I also agree her character hasn't really been handled well from a variety of what to blame (making her look unhinged and a borderline villain rather than just bratty, trying too hard to play down her brattyness for making her more of an inoffensive team mommy/support).

That's a problem I have with her (assuming you are talking of Amy now), they toned down her bratty behavior because there was a time some years ago when almost everyone hated her and considered her incredibly annoying. Now they removed those traits from her personality, she's more tolerated by the fans, though as result you get an Amy who's just a shell of what she was intended to be. Loving Sonic is not enough to define a character's personality, even Tails is not just "I want to be like Sonic", there is more to him; on the other hand, "I love Sonic and I trust in him no matter what happens" is all what remains of Amy from Unleashed to now.

2 hours ago, Almar said:

That said, I wouldn't call her as forced as Knuckles is.

I don't think Knuckles is forced at all. Knuckles has been enstabilished as one of the 3 main characters of the series. It's not a matter of story, plot, canon or what; he's one of the most recognizable and iconic characters in the series and has ben (and still is) used in promotional material like this. When you play Sonic, you expect Tails and Knuckles exactly like when you play Mario you expect Luigi, when you play Kirby you expect Dedede and Metaknight, when you play Donkey Kong you expect Diddy and Dixie. Offcurse those characters may not appear in a game or two, but you can't deny they are the face of their respective franchise.

Amy on the other hand (with the exception of the Boom subseries) never reached that status, and probably never will, even just for the fact that her design is not completely original but it's based on Sonic's. The point is that a big part of the Sonic series' appeal, consists in all the original and colorful designs of the humanized animal characters.

Kinda like Pokèmon, people like all those different designs, how creative they are, despite still being coherent each other regardless of the variety and different animals. People want to explore more, different species and different designs.

When 2/3 of your main cast is made of hedgehogs you are clearly missing the point.

I appreciated the effort of SEGA in recent years, to introduce new designs and animal species into the series... first Sticks in Sonic Boom, then, the IDW comics, Tangle and other eventual characters, and Sonic Forces with Infinite and the character creator. This is a step through the right direction and they finally realized that what they have done in Sonic 06 (majority of the cast was made of hedgehogs) was a bad decision.

When the overload of hedgehog characters and recolors are in discussion, people thend to have a double standard with Amy, though I think that being female and an historic member of the cast doesn't exclude her from this.

Honestly, while I recognize Amy's relevance in the series, I think she should be kept aside a bit and give more spot to other characters once in a while, the series would definitely benefit of this. And when I say Amy, I mean Amy, Shadow, Silver, Metal Sonic, and all the recolor characters who don't bring anything original design-wise.

A last example, try to imagine if 1/3 of the total amount of pokèmons were all Pikachu with different dresses, colors and weapons: would people be happy of this? Personality and story telling can do little to help this situation, as you are killing what the pokèmon exist for: species variety. Sonic is not as strong as Pokèmon on this, but it still affects. Obviously it's not something that the hardcore fandom can see, but I assure you casuals and potential new players do.

1 hour ago, Cuz said:

The stardust speedway fight has been radically re-imagined both times. It was originally just a race, oddly passive for a boss battle, turned into a legit battle in generations and the combi machine sandwiched between phases in Mania is pretty interesting.

While in Mania there are those different phases, the majority of the bossfight was still running right while avoiding Metal ramming at you with electric fields. You may add Sonic 4 EP2, Sonic Generations 3DS and to an extent Sonic Forces too, even if it was slighty different in that game.

[RedFox99]

I think IDW!Amy so far is better than Boom!Amy.

[Red Hot Jack]

Sonic Boom got all the personalities wrong somehow:

Sonic is too bored and lazy

Tails is too perfect, literally he has no flaws

Knuckles is an idiot

Amy is a Type-A, which is VERY different from her normal personality

Eggman is too much of a goof

Orbot is without his sassy personality, another big mistake

And Sticks is just criminally underused in my opinion. If you can get past these big changes, and the redesigns, then you can enjoy the cartoon like I did.

[RedFox99]

4 minutes ago, Jack the Maniac said:

Tails is too perfect, literally he has no flaws

To be fair, Tails can be careless with his inventions sometimes and could often be too into them like in Alone Again where he cares little about Sonic's safety at first.

4 minutes ago, Jack the Maniac said:

Amy is a Type-A, which is VERY different from her normal personality

What's a type A?

[Red Hot Jack]

2 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

To be fair, Tails can be careless with his inventions sometimes and could often be too into them like in Alone Again where he cares little about Sonic's safety at first.

What's a type A?

I mean that she's too obsessed with being a kind and perfect lady, I know Amy is supposed to be girly, but she's also morally and physically strong, she doesn't care about being a lady.

[RedFox99]

1 minute ago, Jack the Maniac said:

I mean that she's too obsessed with being a kind and perfect lady, I know Amy is supposed to be girly, but she's also morally and physically strong, she doesn't care about being a lady.

Yeah, I didn't like how later on she became pretentious, which isn't by how she would be a straw-SJW like in the feminist joke. I honestly don't see how she was much better than X!Amy or Chronicle!Amy in episodes like Chez Amy or Just a Guy.

[Red Hot Jack]

She's not that bad, but not "the Amy Rose" I know. Boom!Amy is also strong and independent, which is something I like, but she's still not the one and only.

[StaticMania]

31 minutes ago, Jack the Maniac said:

Sonic Boom got all the personalities wrong somehow:

Purposely different = Wrong

 

Uh, that's not how that works...

[Red Hot Jack]

Just now, StaticMania said:

Purposely different = Wrong

 

Uh, that's not how that works...

I don't know if that's done on purpose to be honest. They are not necessarily wrong, it's definitely not how the characters should be, Sonic should not be bored, it's NOT him, Orbot shouldn't be stripped of his sassy persona. My opinion of course.

[StaticMania]

It clearly is purposeful...to fit with the sitcom-like format.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

16 hours ago, Jack the Maniac said:

I don't know if that's done on purpose to be honest. They are not necessarily wrong, it's definitely not how the characters should be, Sonic should not be bored, it's NOT him, Orbot shouldn't be stripped of his sassy persona. My opinion of course.

Dude, I sure as hell don’t like Boom either, for the same reasons, too. But that’s no excuse to disregard that it’s an alternate universe, therefore it has alternate rules. Boom Sonic is that way by intention, and while that doesn’t mean you have to like it, it doesn’t mean that’s not Sonic—it’s a different take of him, much like it is everywhere else that does a different take.

Boom isn’t the first to be different: AoSTH, SatAM, and (especially) Underground, despite being made before this franchise had a more concrete identity, are all different from what Sonic is.

Same for Sonic X, which was made once the franchise (supposedly) had enough of an idea what it was at the time. 

Hell, Archie Sonic had it’s own unique identity and different rules even when it adhered more closely to the games, and that’s my preferred universe even over the games, but it being purposely different in certain areas doesn’t mean it’s wrong or that it’s not how the characters should be. (In fact, I’d prefer the game characters to take more after their Archie versions given how much more consistent and balanced they are in characterization)

[E-122-Psi]

I have to say while Forces' story isn't great, it's probably one of the more tolerable attempts at a full on 'war with Eggman' plot since, aside from a couple ridiculous lines in the English version, it's at least pretty harmless. Yes there was WAY more they could have done with it, but aside from that minor bit of laughable 'grit' that was at least superficial enough to only be in one language, it was a passable 'even civilians can be heroes' story. (Haven't played the Shadow DLC yet though so don't know if they pile things on there).

SatAm and Archie (and maybe STC if my memory serves well) I felt tried to fabricate a deeper grittier take but didn't want to put in the emotional weight. We'd have civilians roboticized but suddenly perfectly fine after being in a state of living death for so long as a decade, red shirts that were lost and maybe mourned for two seconds. Ian's run had a few times people called the main cast out for celebrating and getting complacent when people were still suffering, but had the issue of strawmaning them into ungrateful jerks cause hey, the protagonists won and got out all right. That lingering problem made it harder to sit through and also had the unfortunate side effect of making it's protagonists look inadvertently callous (Cat? Whose Cat? We've found a long cold clue to the location of Sally's father and we can also banter and make small talk on our little adventure while the guy who sacrificed his life for us is being tortured). It was still glamorised kids war but it got one unpleasant real life element down pat, shame it was by accident:

 

This is another reason I'm relieved the games fazed out killing off a character every main title for drama.

 

On 2 June 2018 at 11:25 AM, Jack the Maniac said:

Tails is too perfect, literally he has no flaws

Boom Tails I could argue was WAY more flawed than X/early 3D games Tails, who were both practically sheets of cardboard. Even in SA1 and 2 with his development going on, I dunno, he felt so damn empty. EVERYTHING he said was exposition. Even his actors usually sounded utterly unenthusiastic about reading his lines.

Boom Tails by comparison is the tech guy again, but he's over enthusiastic about his work and has some of his chirpier, eager to please side back. He has funny lines and his obsession with using gadgetry along with his naive wimpy nature still there without rendering him useless makes him quite vibrant to me.

[RedFox99]

@E-122-Psi Oh and don't forget that in some cases in SatAM/Archie, the problems would often be lengthened because the protagonists would hold the idiot ball like how despite having Dulcy freeze both robotnik and Snivley, the FFs don't do anything to end the war or a lot of the Iron Dominion arc.

[E-122-Psi]

6 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

@E-122-Psi Oh and don't forget that in some cases in SatAM/Archie, the problems would often be lengthened because the protagonists would hold the idiot ball like how despite having Dulcy freeze both robotnik and Snivley, the FFs don't do anything to end the war or a lot of the Iron Dominion arc.

Yeah, I mean Forces did a lot of that silly cartoon logic stuff as well, but it did at least feel like it was sticking to just that, being a silly cartoon and being enjoyable in that regard (it maybe wasn't amazing about it but it was palpable), rather than wanting to do that AND be a serious tightly woven 'epic' (the exact term creator Ben Hurst used when describing Satam).

[RedFox99]

Just now, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah, I mean Forces did a lot of that silly cartoon logic stuff as well, but it did at least feel like it was sticking to just that, being a silly cartoon and being enjoyable in that regard (it maybe wasn't amazing in that regard but it was palpable), rather than wanting to do that AND be a serious tightly woven 'epic' (the exact term creator Ben Hurst used when describing Satam).

I wonder if Ben and the other writers took SatAM too seriously. I mean "epic", really? That's beyond exaggerating the quality of the show.

Oh yeah, and let's forget how the only reason Robotnik really came into rule was because of foolish many of the people were. 

Man, SatAM was not really a great show, was it?

[E-122-Psi]

No personal offence to Hurst (RIP) but I do think Satam was rather pretentious in it's direction and it only got ten times worse when he became the writer for the whole show.

I mean Forces makes similar dumb premises (a bumbling villain somehow being pushed as all powerful, inappropriate comic relief, unimpressive attempts at tension, pushing a group/army effort despite two characters doing nearly all the work) but it doesn't feel like it's going against all the grandeur and depth it's trying to play itself off as having like with Satam. Plus you know, it's a games story, it's secondary.

 

I know the earlier plans for Satam (which the pilot and early Archie supposedly based themselves on) were meant to be more moderate and light hearted, and I feel like it might have been able to handle itself better that way. Robotnik was only in control for short more believable while before the show started, and robotocization was just brainwashing at that point, it wouldn't need to worry over half assing for a happy ending. I also think some of the cast were able to stick out better when they didn't have their quirks subdued (pilot Rotor was probably him at his most prominent since his mild mannered dorkiness made him a better foil for Sonic).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You guys are overgeneralizing Archie A LOT at the expense of its details.

And as someone who was looking forward to it, I can definitely say that Forces comes nowhere close to making a decent war story by comparison given that it doesn’t really hold much in the way of emotional weight.

You really cannot tell me that there was no emotional weight to having a loved one mental enslaved against their will and being forced to fight them, nevermind whole societies like the Echidnas being enslaved by the Eggman-supported Dingoes, or Eggman’s victory in issue 175. Nevermind the whole Endgame arc, however dated and shoddy it is now, being one of the comic’s most tense arcs, or the terror everyone in New Mobotropolis, even Sonic, felt when they saw the second Death Egg looming over them.

Archie wasn’t always great, but I’m sorry this is just fishing for potshots here. Because I barely even scratched the surface with those examples—Forces doesn’t hold anywhere near a candle to it or even the Adventures in terms of gravity, and I will be more than happy the argue this whole debacle if anyone insists.

[E-122-Psi]

I think it's more I can sit through Forces and enjoy it for what it is (besides those couple of stupid lines in the English version), it's a simple bare bones story, but it knows that and does okay as one.

 

Nearly every story Satam or Archie does that attempts to be darker and have emotional weight has some constantly looming flaw or over reliance on suspension of disbelief that I cannot take it for what it wants to be. I was too exasperated by EndGame's pointlessly convoluted story and other stupid details needed to get it running to appreciate how tense it was (oh and ANOTHER story everyone thinks Sonic is a traitor, which really makes his "ever trusting" band of friends more likeable), and I've already went through how botched up sacrifices like Cat were. There is some legit drama, but it's often botched by failing to make me connect with the character or offer a personality in the first place because they've been too preoccupied looking dramatic, while some of the arcs are almost downright unpleasant to look at because of how grim they try to be. 

I end up more frustrated looking at these than I did Forces.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Which is fine and all, but that’s literally ignoring the whole intention and weight being present and using those flaws to undercut the story being told.

People who have been the most critical of Forces, barring those whose criticisms equate to “Dark=bad”, don’t even do this. Heck, Heroes is bare bones, and it shows much more in what it presents, and no one criticizes it’s bare bones plot for the same reasons they do Forces.

It’s bare bone not because it knows it is—far from it in fact given how it does the storytelling cardinal sin of “Tell, don’t Show” most of the time. It’s bare bones because it isn’t doing enough, such as not even showing Eggman conquering the world unopposed (Archie nor StC shies away from showing this), stating that Sonic was tortured only for him to not show any signs of it (Sonic has the absolute shit beaten out of him in 175 and gets hung up on it, but gets right back up to fight again even with the odds stacked against him), and Infinites infamous “I’M NOT WEAK!!!” whining comes off as down right ridiculous even for the story with very little motivation and effort into his character to make him a decent antagonist (and I say this because Infinite had the potential to actually do better, and I hated him from the moment he was shown in trailers), nevermind the lazy final battle between the world and Infinite’s illusions, or the bait and switch they pull with said illusions when they could have done far better with the ability.

Forces in contrast to very many plots before it, does very little to sell itself as an actual war story. It doesn’t carry anywhere near the weight it should, and does so more out of spectacle than it does to immerse. You say Archie fails to make you connect, or it has some looming flaw, but your critiques often come off as disliking the tone and overgeneralizing at the expense of the details—or at worst, because it gives detail—as it just “looking dramatic” regardless of context it establishes that gives everything sense of what’s going on, who’s involved, why things are happening or the way they are, and how do they intend to go about dealing with them, as well as the consequences of them succeeding or failing that leads into the next events. And while it may not be your cup of tea, that is still no excuse to straight up ignore these details and oversimplify them with strawmans.

That’s especially the case when Forces, if anything, is far more guilty and blatant of these flaws and more, and it doesn’t put anywhere near enough context for its story as it should.

[DabigRG]

While I did call Knuckles being the commander of the Resistance as a shorthand for making him important again, I think Amy as Mission Control/Tech Support is might be even more out of left field.

[RedFox99]

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

While I did call Knuckles being the commander of the Resistance as a shorthand for making him important again, I think Amy as Mission Control/Tech Support is might be even more out of left field.

Especially since she doesn't seem like the most tech savvy after Tails; plus, it seemed to have tied her down to being an exposition fairy.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

Especially since she doesn't like the most tech savvy after Tails; plus, it seemed to have tied her down to being an exposition fairy.

Pretty much my thought.

[RedFox99]

31 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much my thought.

Honestly, I think next to Tails she got the shortest end of the stick in Forces since she didn"t do much in the game and only got a mention in the prequel comics.

[DabigRG]

3 minutes ago, RedFox99 said:

Honestly, I think next to Tails she got the short end of the stick since she didn"t do much in the game and only got a mention in the prequel comics.

Tails?

But yeah, at least Knuckles had some indirect precedent and a bit of character-driven chaffing with his position. I only remember a few things Amy even said.