Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[RedFox99]

2 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Speaking of 06:

I’ve come to associate 06 jokes as the lowest form of Sonic-related humour, if not one of them.

Anything comedic that has a Sonic 06 jab in there somewhere immediatly drags the whole thing down.

They're like memes: they've been overdone to the point where using them can make the comedy go done in quality. 

[Silvereyes]

Yeah that is true. That and people bringing up that Sonic porn exists, when there is porn of literally everything.

I'm on the Last Episode now and struggling my way through The End of the World level. The segment with Silver sucks so much. I knew alot of the game's problems and plot points, but it is interesting playing it and seeing the details. When I finish the game I'll post some thoughts in this thread about it. I actually find the plot a little bit interesting, but also amazingly incoherent and shabbily put together at points. You can see the good ideas but it gets muddled in the execution.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

Yeah that is true. That and people bringing up that Sonic porn exists, when there is porn of literally everything.

I'm on the Last Episode now and struggling my way through The End of the World level. The segment with Silver sucks so much. I knew alot of the game's problems and plot points, but it is interesting playing it and seeing the details. When I finish the game I'll post some thoughts in this thread about it. I actually find the plot a little bit interesting, but also amazingly incoherent and shabbily put together at points. You can see the good ideas but it gets muddled in the execution.

The platforms that come out of the walls have enough room/coding for Silver to stay on  as long as he runs into the wall.

Also, I believe those eyes of Solaris have a very faint, tiny light that appears a halfsecond before they do. Just aim to go around them and don't jump.

[Silvereyes]

Just now, DabigRG said:

The platforms that come out of the walls have enough room/coding for Silver to stay on  as long as he runs into the wall.

I managed to figure that out. It's when Silver has to jump over that wall across a pit of quick sand next to a black hole I keep failing at. I havn't even reached the other 3 characters yet, I keep running out of lives. At least Tails and Knuckles are easy to do once you memorise the route. Omega's throws so much shit at you it is ridiculous.

[DabigRG]

12 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

I managed to figure that out. It's when Silver has to jump over that wall across a pit of quick sand next to a black hole I keep failing at. I havn't even reached the other 3 characters yet, I keep running out of lives. 

I don't immediately recall that, but just make sure you have a full energy bar, get a running start, just to the fullest height over the pit and then use your levitation.

I also just found this, so if it's really too much of a hassle...

12 minutes ago, silvereye27 said:

. Omega's throws so much shit at you it is ridiculous.

Yeah, it really is. That's just a case where you just have to abuse Invincibility frames to get a move on. Aside from the eyes, of course.

[Silvereyes]

Well, I did it. Once I got past Silver, the other 3 wern't that bad. Really Omega and Silver who had the most frustrating bits. Mind you, I wound up losing some lives and getting a game over with Rouge because I forgot you could climb walls with her. Same problem I had in Adventure 2's finale actually, I kept forgetting what everyone's abilities were because you keep changing between them so quickly. Bizarrely, it took me over 10 minutes to defeat Solaris but apparently that is good enough for an S rank which surprised me.

I do find the plot interesting in aspects. I actually find it a nice idea that with each of the 3 heroes each has their own villian to face, rather than in Sonic Adventure where everyone was up against Eggman and Chaos for their own reasons. It's just a shame that Dr Eggman in '06 is really not that relevant aside from kicking off the plot to begin with, and Iblis is more of a force of nature rather than a bad guy.

I think Sonic gets the worse deal in terms of plot. I know it has been said alot, but his entire plot really does boil down to having to constantly rescue the princess over and over again. Like I said, I think Dr Eggman isn't really that relevant to the plot because the true villians are Iblis and Mephiles, and aside from being responsible for Mephiles escaping, and giving bits of exposition about the Solaris Project, Dr Eggman doesn't matter to the story. You could say the same for Tails and Knuckles actually, since they get nothing to do. Tails just acts as Sonic's sidekick, and Knuckles does so little he could of been cut out of the game.

And ofcourse, there is the lecherous cancer on the game's story being Sonic and Elise's romance, which is so badly written and so laughable it is an utter cringefest. I know it has been said before, but why make Sonic's love interest a human? It's weird. Princess Elise is possibly the worst character in the entire franchise, she is so helpless and never learns to become stronger. If she is the leader of Soleanna, Soleanna is royally fucked. And if she is the leader, why isn't she a queen?

Silver's story is better, but I'm not sure it is good. Honestly I think Silver's story suffers from a lack of focus in general. Silver's enemy is Iblis, but since Iblis is a non-talking entity who stays in the future, it does feel like Silver does alot of wandering around in his plot, at times seemingly tagging on with Sonic and Shadow in their stories. The notion of Silver trying to kill Sonic because he believes he is responsible for the apocalypse is a nice idea. It just feels very much bundled because Silver at first has absolutely no qualms about murdering a guy, and even seems to relish in killing Sonic when he mocks him for being so weak. Granted Silver seems to momentarily realise that killing Sonic is perhaps not a good idea thanks to Amy's interference, but then gets back on board when apparently Blaze has no problem with it either.

I find Blaze weird in this game. I mean, I know she is meant to come across as quite cold and a bit stiff and anti-social, but here, she comes across as extremely apathetic. She just comes across as not caring for the entire game, and some cutscenes have her barely say anything. It's only when she sacrifices her at the end when she ever really emotes. The idea of her being friends with Silver just never really gets sold to me, but I can understand why so many fans like to ship the 2. Amy does so little, again, she might as well of been axed from the game. It doesn't help that Amy is the worst playable character, her hammer is so terrible to use and her double jump is weird in how it only lets you jump straight up.

Shadow probably gets the best deal in the storyline department since he gets his own villian, and Team Dark all get to play a role. Granted, I'm not sure it is exactly a good story. Shadow and Mephiles interactions just kindof boil down to "join the dark side!" "Shadow the Hedgehog bombed so Sega won't let me be a villian anymore, so no." I like the idea of Shadow being scapegoated after Iblis is freed by humanity, and that Omega was the one responsible for Shadow being locked up, and Rouge gets to be her self.

And ofcourse there is the ending, which has the events of the game reset, except presumably for Blaze's dimensional exile which is meant to tie into Sonic Rush... I guess? Yeah, not a fan of reboot endings, and in a way this would essentially screw over Silver considering how everytime he appears it just begs the question why he isn't back in his own time. I understand from someone else on here that Rivals is where his canonical appearance is meant to be, but I havn't played it.

There are several questions I have though. Why does Eggman's carrier malfunction and blow up? Was it sabotage by Mephiles? How did Eggman and Elise not be able to escape, but Eggman is able to have a 5 minute boss fight with Sonic as the carrier explodes? Why can't Mephiles join with Iblis in the future? Why make Elise cry when apparently her dying is what released Iblis to begin with, so why not just kill her? What exactly is Solaris?

There is also the very baffling trials that Sonic and Silver must take to reach Kingdom Valley. Sonic has to choose who he loves, Elise and Amy. What's odd is that Sonic and Amy only talk to each other once in the game, and the fact that the game acknowledges that Sonic does have another love interest aside from Elise is just a bit weird to me. Not to mention the implication that choosing one will effect the game's ending, but it has no bearing on anything. Silver has even weird trials. He has to beat up a bunch of enemies to free Blaze to prove he is a good friend. And then he has to take a test where he just has to remember his past, that somehow the priests know about, and apparently having a good memory shows he has a good heart?

It's like the writers wanted to make sure the audience knew that yes, Sonic and Elise are in love for the finale, and that Silver and Blaze are bestest friends to try and make Blaze's sacrifice more emotional, like the audience are idiots or something.

Sonic '06 has been talked to death so I imagine everything I've said has been pointed out by others. Still, I am glad I finally played it. There are still a ton of Sonic titles I havn't played, none of the Wii games for instance, or Shadow the Hedgehog, or even Sonic Forces yet because I'm waiting to get that cheap.

 

 

 

[DabigRG]

Many of the current complaints and issues consumers have with the series is partly their fault to begin with.

[Blue Blood]

On 8/30/2018 at 6:05 PM, DabigRG said:

Many of the current complaints and issues consumers have with the series is partly their fault to begin with.

Such as?

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Such as?

"Why is everyone better than Sonic?, Sonic's Shitty Friends, Boost To Win,, Sonic Colors saved Sonic's reputation, Green Eyes, Sonic the Sitcom, ,Sonic is not Mario Tails is such a brat, Sonic needs to be dark again,...."

[SilverTheGamer]

I like the story and cutscenes of sonic 06, but i hate the story and execution in sonic forces. i think it's a million times worse.

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, SilverTheGamer said:

I like the story and cutscenes of sonic 06, but i hate the story and execution in sonic forces. i think it's a million times worse.

I guess I can see that...?

Most scenes with Sonic and/or Infinite not withstanding.

[Scape]

Making Amy bitter, jaded, cynical, uncompassionate, etc. in an effort to make her more "~mature~" is idiotic. Behaving like you have a stick up your ass is not maturity.

though to be fair, becoming bitter and jaded is probably natural for a Sonic fan

[Red Hot Jack]

1 hour ago, Scape said:

Making Amy bitter, jaded, cynical, uncompassionate, etc. in an effort to make her more "~mature~" is idiotic. Behaving like you have a stick up your ass is not maturity.

though to be fair, becoming bitter and jaded is probably natural for a sonic fan

This! Sonic Boom changed Amy into a bad person, maybe a fake person too. I don't see what's wrong with her being an energetic fangirl, as long as it's not her only attribute. She's perfect in the comics, she still loves Sonic, but she's tough, independent, she can make her own decisions. Take IDW issue 2 for example, but also the Archie series.

[E-122-Psi]

Boom!Amy wasn't horrible, but she wasn't how I saw Amy (she'd arguably be a better way of depicting Sally Acorn in a comical work, sort of the well meaning control freak of the group). I don't see a problem with Amy being childish, childish is not the pivot to some of her criticised traits like being a damsel in distress or obsessive stalker for example. In Heroes for example, her only issue was during the boss battles which in fairness flanderized everybody, otherwise her bubbly spirit made her work fine as the life and soul of the team.

Boom also made Tails more sarcastic and flawed for example, but they if anything punctuated some of his older neglected traits like being a bit naive and childlike.

My recurring problem with 'maturing' a character in many works is that they often connect the process akin to abolishing all their flaws instead of being more able to keep them under control, thus turning them into a flat character in the eyes of new viewers who don't know about their character development. I have no problem with Amy and Tails being more competent, but getting rid of all their childlike habits in the process not only seems unrealistic given they ARE children, but also tends to make them incredibly boring and non distinct. I want Amy and Tails to be competent THROUGH their characters, not just become another generically competent character.

[StaticMania]

With characters who don't age, it might honestly be a better move to keep their flaws to a minimum...as in, if they're gonna appear a lot we shouldn't constantly be reminded of those flaws if they aren't gonna impact the plot in anyway. Even humorously.

 

Sonic characters don't show their personality much anymore.

[E-122-Psi]

The problem is that a large amount of individual quirks in the games cast have been dumbed down into just being tired running gags. Knuckles being gullible or making rash decisions is actually pretty easy to forget besides him always being tricked by Eggman into fighting Sonic, while Amy's giddy personality became little but her obsessive crush on Sonic. Quirks are not just one-note catchphrases or formulas, when developed right they can make tremendous foibles and even play a lot into character agency. But to make a quirk matter is the same as anything with a character, you have to develop them in a way that they drive the plot forward.

[Fire-N-Space]

I really hated watching what Boom did to Amy every Saturday I'll get up hoping to see Amy be madly in love with Sonic but nope, she's not even on the screen half of the time.

[StaticMania]

That not really the show's problem...?

Knuckles' gullibility has been non-existant, it didn't become an excessive thing...it just stopped happening. Like Amy's crush on Sonic has somehow went from being on full display to just being an occasional thing...

[Sonic Fan J]

Kind of outside of my usual ballpark, but I always feel Sonic works better as a character when he is larger than life and perceived through the eyes of characters younger than him. Or to put it another way, Sonic works best when perceived as the cool teenager that is the talk of the schoolyard that everyone wishes they were like. When painted in this light his obvious flaws don't weigh down the narrative or story telling because he's a wish fulfillment character for children who don't really understand the consequences of Sonic's way of life. It's part of the reason of late I find myself preferring the younger characters vs the older ones and feel the series really should go in a direction that is more akin to a children's series that takes itself serious while still being playful and fun.

[E-122-Psi]

54 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Kind of outside of my usual ballpark, but I always feel Sonic works better as a character when he is larger than life and perceived through the eyes of characters younger than him. Or to put it another way, Sonic works best when perceived as the cool teenager that is the talk of the schoolyard that everyone wishes they were like. When painted in this light his obvious flaws don't weigh down the narrative or story telling because he's a wish fulfillment character for children who don't really understand the consequences of Sonic's way of life. It's part of the reason of late I find myself preferring the younger characters vs the older ones and feel the series really should go in a direction that is more akin to a children's series that takes itself serious while still being playful and fun.

I dunno, Sonic X did that portrayal in full throttle, and it was arguably the most generic overglorified version of Sonic yet, being overpowered, always right and just being so cool and suave and awesome that it doesn't really feel like he needs anybody physically OR emotionally. He was so often seen through another character like Chris' eyes for their own development that he was barely even the main character, he wasn't dimensional enough to be such. Basically a prop more than a character himself.

Add to that, in ANY interpretation, even Sonic X, Sonic is known for being very smug and arrogant. It's meant to be in a likeable way for the most part of course, but after a while, those are aspects that need to come back to haunt him every once in a while, an egotist needs to have their ego taken down a peg otherwise they become insufferable.

I feel like Tails was created to create sort of a balance with Sonic concerning his 'attitude', a little brother archetype that Sonic is warm and protective towards, but I don't think it works like that full time. Boom and AoSth Sonic were okay presenting this sort of perspective while still letting him be a full and proper character of sorts with foibles. I feel like Satam's large cast was supposed to create this balance as well, what with the kid brother through Tails and the wistful nerd through Rotor balancing straight men or authority figures like Sally or Chuck, but of course the former characters got demoted quickly so the obnoxious flawed parts of Sonic that always needed to be put in their place became more dominant.

Funnily enough Pokemon had a similar setup recently with Ash. XY made him more an 'ace' archetype seen through the other characters, which made him a cool battler and hero and what not, but pretty dull as a character. Sun and Moon meanwhile tried to make more of a balance afterwards, making him a more goofy fallible (but still very good natured) character again, but giving him a large cast of foils to play on his different sides (and unlike Satam with Sonic, not having a necessary category fade into the background), thus a Team Mom/Dad to scold his impulses, a rival/kindred spirit to play off of his energy, an idolising rookie to play off of his protective side (and have this occasional XY perspective without taking over his character), an intellectual nerd to play off of his book dumb side. Thus a balance is kept in his positive and negative qualities.

I feel like Sonic, with his very large cast, could very easily have the same dynamic, unfortunately only so many characters are actual effective foils for him.

 

It's not like you can't have the cute idolising kid member dynamic towards a character that's still goofy and flawed anyway. If anything that's all the more endearing:

[Sonic Fan J]

36 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I dunno, Sonic X did that portrayal in full throttle, and it was arguably the most generic overglorified version of Sonic yet, being overpowered, always right and just being so cool and suave and awesome that it doesn't really feel like he needs anybody physically OR emotionally. He was so often seen through another character like Chris' eyes for their own development that he was barely even the main character, he wasn't dimensional enough to be such. Basically a prop more than a character himself.

Add to that, in ANY interpretation, even Sonic X, Sonic is known for being very smug and arrogant. It's meant to be in a likeable way for the most part of course, but after a while, those are aspects that need to come back to haunt him every once in a while, an egotist needs to have their ego taken down a peg otherwise they become insufferable.

I feel like Tails was created to create sort of a balance with Sonic concerning his 'attitude', a little brother archetype that Sonic is warm and protective towards, but I don't think it works like that full time. Boom and AoSth Sonic were okay presenting this sort of perspective while still letting him be a full and proper character of sorts with foibles. I feel like Satam's large cast was supposed to create this balance as well, what with the kid brother through Tails and the wistful nerd through Rotor balancing straight men or authority figures like Sally or Chuck, but of course the former characters got demoted quickly so the obnoxious flawed parts of Sonic that always needed to be put in their place became more dominant.

Funnily enough Pokemon had a similar setup recently with Ash. XY made him more an 'ace' archetype seen through the other characters, which made him a cool battler and hero and what not, but pretty dull as a character. Sun and Moon meanwhile tried to make more of a balance afterwards, making him a more goofy fallible (but still very good natured) character again, but giving him a large cast of foils to play on his different sides (and unlike Satam with Sonic, not having a necessary category fade into the background), thus a Team Mom/Dad to scold his impulses, a rival/kindred spirit to play off of his energy, an idolising rookie to play off of his protective side (and have this occasional XY perspective without taking over his character), an intellectual nerd to play off of his book dumb side. Thus a balance is kept in his positive and negative qualities.

I feel like Sonic, with his very large cast, could very easily have the same dynamic, unfortunately only so many characters are actual effective foils for him.

 

It's not like you can't have the cute idolising kid member dynamic towards a character that's still goofy and flawed anyway. If anything that's all the more endearing:

You make a fair argument, though you approach it more so from the only example that is not well handled in my opinion. I see what you're saying with Chris, but Chris as a character refuses to even recognize what he has and never really comes to realize it at all. It doesn't help Chris any that he is anything but an endearing character, which is one of the reasons that I drastically prefer characters like Tails and Amy. To me, these two characters and how aloof Sonic is would actually work to build an interesting narrative all its own. If you'll humor a strange take for moment, if instead of focusing on Sonic, say you made Tails and Amy the main characters who become friends out of their desire to chase after and be like Sonic and that they did indeed go on adventures in that very pursuit. Taking the optimism of Amy and the weariness of Tails' doubt you create an interesting duo of child characters who play off of each other and learn from their experiences from chasing after Sonic. Their own abilities would also come into play as they discover their own strengths and weaknesses while learning the dangers of Sonic's way of life. Since keeping Eggman involved is still a necessity in this type of set up Sonic is still able to be presented as a larger than life character who can accomplish the seemingly impossible. Sure this approach keeps Sonic aloof and in the background, and perhaps stems from my love of seeing kids go on adventures in pursuit of their dreams, but I find it would create a very rich character narrative that doesn't lose sight of Sonic as the hero and Eggman as the villain. Admittedly, for such an approach to continue to work long term it would require minimizing interactions with Sonic himself as that would spoil his mystique. Conversely though, that leaves plenty of room to interact with any number of other characters and viewpoints of others' interactions with Sonic.

I guess to an extent, as much as I like Sonic as a character, what with him being a cheeky globetrotting adventurer and all, I find that when handled as a larger than life character he presents a completely unexplored range of narrative possibilities in those inspired to chase after his shadow. Then again, it could also just be me being nostalgic for those same feelings that Sonic once inspired in me and believing as a result that stories told in that way would be engaging as a result. Regardless though, I believe such an approach can work and would like to see it one day even if it's on the more will never happen side of the spectrum.

[Kuzu]

I would just run with the original idea of Sonic as an escapist character; someone you wish you could be and probably enjoy watching live out a life you want to. Granted, everyone constantly talking him up would get old really fast, especially without someone to balance him out. That direction might work with a smaller and more naive cast, but a lot of these characters are pretty well-established at this point.

Feels like the type of story you'd tell with a new character and not one of the pre-existing ones. 

[E-122-Psi]

The problem is that I kinda grow apathetic with a character developing over their bond and idolisation towards a character that isn't really a character and doesn't really have much of a bond with them. Sonic and Tails in Sonic X wasn't nearly as heartwarming as in other medias due to Sonic's said aloofness and lack of characterisation, Tails blatantly cared about him more than Sonic did him. Granted Tails himself was kinda dull in Sonic X so that didn't help. Developing a character around a prop only goes so far.

[Sonic Fan J]

Fair enough, I have an unusual outlook anyone compared to most anyway and have nothing against using an abstract to develop a character. To me it's almost more of a case focusing on the character at hand and their journey to reach that abstract. Son Goku from Dragon Ball with strength, Kaname Madoka from Puella Magi with a meaningful wish, Rico from Made in Abyss and the bottom of the abyss, Negi Springfield from Negima with his father, etc. They are all characters who are motivated and partake in journeys due to an abstract of some sort. Be it a goal, a person, or even a location, they are motivated by abstracts and partake in thrilling journeys that define them and how they interact and perceive the world. To me that has always worked as a character motivator and results in interesting stories. I guess if anything though, the problem with the Sonic franchise is that Sonic is both the lead and title character and the type of story I see would require removing him from being the lead. I can see how people would have a problem with that and I'm good with that. As I already said, I have a rather strange outlook compared to most so it's easy for me to see potential in unusual places where others see a dead end.

[Kuzu]

The main difference with those stories however is that those are series with clear end points to stop and conclude. Sonic is a video game series that is meant to go on indefinitely, it's not much of a journey if there's no actual goal or end point.