Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Sonic Fan J]

Which probably brings us to the franchise's biggest weakness; lack of sincere character development. While having character development that actually sticks wouldn't solve all of the problems in the franchise, it would create a more memorable journey even if there is no clear end point. And it's not like character development couldn't work in the franchise either. As a thought experiment I once did over on the official SEGA forums I ran the series in a chopped up version of release order in advance with a sprinkling of side media starting from BOOM! and ending with the original game. At the conclusion of that thought experiment Sonic had gone from quippy jokester without an ounce of concern to a quite and steadfast hero whose cockiness and attitude only really still manifested itself in his body language. It was an interesting bit of character examination mixed with a bit of head cannon and fanfiction to be sure, but regardless, one could still see a clear evolution of Sonic going from someone who would joke with Eggman in mostly harmless skirmishes in town to Sonic being able to attack a defenseless Eggman at the end after Eggman had endangered the entirety of the world on numerous occasions. Even without all of my added bits the contrast between where the franchise was when BOOM! deputed and how Sonic was presented in the original game regardless of technology limitations was fairly intriguing. It's kind of a long read and split into like three parts covering for Knuckles and Amy as well, not to mention full of grammatical and spelling errors to no end, but I've got it saved to a flash drive somewhere and would be glad to upload it if you would like to read and see a little better into my unusual perspective.

Anyway, getting back on point, I think even without an end point character progression and development would add to a sense of a journey taking place even without a clear end point. And honestly a lack of a clear end point is fine by me. After all, I like to think most of us live the story of our own lives without thinking about the end point everyday.

[Kuzu]

It's not really a weakness per se, it's just the medium itself. What works in a serialized medium doesn't necessarily work for what's meant to just be a pick up and play platform series.  Not that you can't make engaging and intriguing character arcs and whatnot, but that usually involves characters in self-contained stories that aren't meant to be long running. JRPG's can get away with this because their stories are mostly contained within that game and outside of direct sequels, aren't really connected. Sonic is a mascot platformer first and foremost; his primary purpose is to sell a video game to the audience for them to play and Sega themselves basically subscribe to the idea  that any story has to be subservient to the gameplay.

 

Essentially, I think people's problems with the lore and characterization stems from the fact that what they want out of the series is something that the creators just aren't interested in developing, a rich world of colorful characters. 

[Sonic Fan J]

A shame really since whether by design or accident they did a good job of implying that was their intent only to pull the plug when complaints about the narrative quality they were putting out started to come up. But I guess that's typical SEGA/Sonic team over reaction. Have a hangnail, cut off the who arm from the rotary cuff. Problem solved. Now if only that approach didn't create a whole new slew of problems. 

[Mountaindewandsprite]

An unpopular opinion I agree with is how Sonic ( in games like Generations and Forces and even outside media like Sonic X) is basically the other character's lifeline. I can't stress this enough. In Sonic Forces, during the final boss fight, Tails literally says Sonic is their "shining hope". It's like the other characters are completely defenseless or incompetent when he's not around. Generations reduced everyone to Sonic's personal cheerleaders. Forces has everything go to shit after Sonic is presumed dead. Even outside media like Sonic X has characters like Knuckles...fucking Knuckles...the dude who knocked the chaos emeralds out of super Sonic... getting his ass kicked until Sonic shows up to crack some not so witty banter and effortlessly defeat the robot or whatever. I get that he's the main character but there's a thing called SUPPORTING characters. Supporting characters are actually involved in the action. Those who aren't are background, minor, or stock characters.  This is Sonic, not Superman.

[E-122-Psi]

It's a shame because making a world with vibrant characters shouldn't be something THAT hard to do, at least to some palpable degree. I mean we get even loads of basic childish cartoons like the aforementioned Winnie the Pooh that have tons of fun bits of character and dialogue, no matter how bad or bare bones the plot is. I mean Sonic Boom, while not amazing, did succeed at this, there was some inherent amount of personality to all the characters that shone through, no matter how bad the writing was.

For the games it always feels like the writers are struggling desperately just to have one of the cast tell so much as a bad joke that connects to a foible of their's.

[Kuzu]

Once again, different mediums.

[Red Hot Jack]

I still think that adding Shadow to Infinite's backstory was a good idea, it seems something my favorite tv show would do with it (making a flashback with a protagonist that explains the villain's backstory), the whole backstory was also nice in my opinion, complete with the comic prequel, in which Infinite and Eggman touch the phantom ruby, they see their future, Infinite sees his powerful persona and Eggman his conquered world, so that's how their partnership begins. Infinite is a loser, but a relatable character, he wants to be respected, he wants to believe in himself again after a pathetic defeat by the hands of Shadow, and that's why he needs power, he becomes kind of addicted to it. And he makes fear, what he had during the fight with Shadow, his strongest skill, giving fear to the others like he once felt. He is an interesting villain, with a lot of wasted potential, he should have lasted longer in the game. Unlike other final bosses, who were just monsters of the week, generic and with no personality, I thought Infinite deserved to be the final boss for once. Sadly it didn't happen and we don't even know what happened to him.

[Red Hot Jack]

Sorry for double post, but this one includes only negativity. Hi, I'm Jack, and today I will be listing the things I hate the most about the Sonic the Hedgehog series. My posts are usually positive and hopeful, this one will counter balance it. 

Obviously I love a lot of things Sonic the Hedgehog, but it's impossible to like all of it.

- SatAM, AoStH and Sonic Underground, basically the old cartoons, I thought they had crappy quality, and I'm not talking about drawings, we'll get to that later, I think the premise is awful in all of them, it has little to do with Sonic, with the exception maybe of AoStH, SatAM is interesting to be honest because it's a bit like Star Wars, the world is under the rule of an Emperor and a resistance still fights, it's okay but it's just that with Sonic slapped in it. And Sally is basically the protagonist here. I dislike the Freedom Fighters in their SatAM appearance and personality, they are much better in the comics, I especially hate Sally, the coward Antoine, the boring Rotor, and the worst sidekick of all... Snively! They are all better during the reboot.

- About the comics, I didn't like the first issues, basically SatAM without the interesting narrative, but with Boom's comedy? Strange mix. What came later was a fan fiction that had little to do with Sonic, not just the games, but with Sonic in general, and then there were weird things like Amy living in an older body with the brain of a child, the Robo-Robotnik who became human and all that unnecessary confusion. I started to love them when the Flynn & Yardley era began. Can't talk about StC because I haven't followed.

- I don't like the Deadly Five, and even then, Zavok is really generic but still okay. The others... my God, filler villains, very uninspired designs and monotone personalities, especially Zik, Zeena and Zomom. They also don't fit Sonic. Nor do Erazor and Merlina, in fact I'm 50/50 about them, great villains but still weird in a Sonic game. Mephiles and Eggman Nega I also despise, in this case they are recolors, pretty much, Mephiles has a bit of edgy coolness though, I still don't like the design. That's what a recolor is, not Shadow or Silver, it's a bit of a different story. But the worst of the worst are those generic monsters, I'm not counting Chaos but Iblis and Dark Gaia particularly. I'm also not a fan of the Neo Metal Sonic design. And neither Black Doom, I just don't like the design in this case too.

-  I don't like Spring Yard Zone, it's so uninspired compared to the other Sonic 1 zone, the game itself is decent compared to the classics. As for the games, I used to love the Adventure series but now they've kinda grown tired to me, I'm not sure anymore. Same for Shadow, I used to enjoy the game when it came out but now? Not so much. I didn't buy Rise of Lyric even though I used to own a Wii-U, I just wasn't interested. I could never get into Sonic Spinball, not my genre. And Lost World? Fun but it's too Mario-ish and too sloooow XD

-  Stories: I didn't like the execution of Forces storyline (the game itself was a disappointment, I didn't enjoy it), but the premise I really like. Lost World is a big no to me. Both stories have the Tails characterization issue, he's either a big douche or a coward, I prefer him in Forces because at least he's nice but we're still far from the good characterization from the comics and maybe Boom. Heroes obviously had garbage story even though I appreciated a couple of twists such as the Chaotix storyline. Shadow the Hedgehog's storyline... I don't wanna talk about it. I basically only save the Adventure series, Unleashed, maybe Forces, and the Rush series, and obviously the Storybooks. In terms of storyline. For me a Sonic story is either Archie or IDW.

- Sonic X: it's my favorite Sonic cartoon but I have to admit it had shitty drawings, really poor quality, and Chris was the protagonist sadly, he's very spoiled and annoying, I didn't like the adaptations because in general I find them a waste of time, and basically ruined by Chris, some cool moments for Amy and Rouge were replaced by Chris. Ugh. Also, I recognize, even though I like it, that Season 3 is a bit monotone, every episode they are fighting Metarex, there's little variety.

- Other characters: I don't like Elise because of the love story, but I do like her character theme. Omochao, I'm unsure because he's supposed to be annoying, and that kind of makes it funny. Wave and Storm, because they are basically Rouge and evil Big, Wave I especially dislike (not the design though) because she is a bully towards Tails and a cheater! I also changed my mind about Boom!Amy, she's not that good, she's a fake person who acts nothing like Amy Rose. I don't mind Boom!Knuckles because at least he's funny. Orbot is a brilliant character, but in Boom he's... personality-less, he's basically become a boring butler to Eggman, and a straight man to Cubot, I really hate what they did to him. The Shadow model from Rise of Lyric also sucks, now THAT'S a recolor. I'm not that big of a fan of Cream and Big as well, Cream especially, I adore Sticks and she's cute, but Cream is different to me because she was created with a cute face and nothing else, in my opinion, she's born to be cute. When I think of cute in the Sonic series, for me it's Classic Tails, Sticks, Big, and maybe Blaze.

- The Marine case... look, I don't mind, even though I find her to be spoiled and hysterical, a brat who wants to be captain at all costs but she's afraid of ghost ships, she's so bossy, I don't want to use the generic "annoying" word, I know she's supposed to be like that, I'm not sure if I like her though. What I really dislike is that people keep bringing her up after eleven years, that's what makes me hate her, she was never relevant, she was in an obscure game where she was a NPC with no voice in 2007, why did people expect her to be suddenly playable in Team Sonic Racing with Silver and Blaze? I mean, they didn't put Cream in that game. I've seen a lot of nasty comments against Sticks, hear me on this: it's okay to dislike her, it's not possible that everyone can love a character, but I've seen comments like "nope, it's garbage/ it's damaging the Sonic series", if you make such superficial comments... well, you can do it anyway, but then you don't know Sticks one bit.

- I do like Boom although I think it was severely limited by the comedic route, it could have been a funny adventure like other shows, instead we got a full comedy with bits of action and no adventure ;/

Meanwhile I secretly love Sonic Mania (including Plus!) and I give it the S rank along with Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Generations. Don't tell anyone!

[DabigRG]

As someone who's grown quite indifferent to Tails, I thought Wave and to an extent Fiona presented interesting foils/antagonists for him.

On 9/3/2018 at 3:56 AM, Scape said:

Making Amy bitter, jaded, cynical, uncompassionate, etc. in an effort to make her more "~mature~" is idiotic. Behaving like you have a stick up your ass is not maturity.

though to be fair, becoming bitter and jaded is probably natural for a Sonic fan

And this happened when...?

[Scape]

22 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

And this happened when...?

I was mostly referring to fanworks

[DabigRG]

45 minutes ago, Scape said:

I was mostly referring to fanworks

Oh, so shit most people don't have to worry bout?

Okay, I can see how that'd be annoying.

[Scape]

39 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh, so shit most people don't have to worry bout?

Okay, I can see how that'd be annoying.

fanworks, but also Sonic Boom and Sonic the Comic

[StaticMania]

Sonic Boom isn't an example...that would just be misinterpretation.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Scape said:

fanworks, but also Sonic Boom and Sonic the Comic

I hadn't gotten far int StC, so that's up in the air, but Boom!Amy never struck me as any of those things from what I remember.

If anything, part of the deal with her was that she often preach for good not so old fashioned values and "enriching" things that most of the other characters often found boring and/or sappy.

[Skull Leader]

On September 3, 2018 at 4:55 PM, E-122-Psi said:

The problem is that I kinda grow apathetic with a character developing over their bond and idolisation towards a character that isn't really a character and doesn't really have much of a bond with them. Sonic and Tails in Sonic X wasn't nearly as heartwarming as in other medias due to Sonic's said aloofness and lack of characterisation, Tails blatantly cared about him more than Sonic did him. Granted Tails himself was kinda dull in Sonic X so that didn't help. Developing a character around a prop only goes so far.

It's kind of funny how the more looney show Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog had a more legit bond between Sonic and Tails than Sonic X could ever dream of.

I think that through Tails and Amy respective points of view, the audience could have an idea of what Sonic is... more or less since, IMO, one of the biggest issues with Sonic is that he allows people to grow close to him only so much and there will always be a distance that no character can ever cross to really see Sonic for whom he really is.

Then there is the issue of Sonic being more of an ideal/force of nature than an actual character (making him an escapist character for the audience would only accentuate how he seems to lack substance) and how it can change the context of the bond of Tails and Amy (in contrast, two very relatable, down to earth characters), making it come off more as idolizing this character who is greater than life and who exists on a different plane than an actual friendship where all parties are equally invested in each other... There's just something really off that makes it feel one-sided, especially when one considers Sonic's selfish love for freedom and how he would never compromise that one thing... not even for his friends.

[E-122-Psi]

5 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I hadn't gotten far int StC, so that's up in the air, but Boom!Amy never struck me as any of those things from what I remember.

If anything, part of the deal with her was that she often preach for good not so old fashioned values and "enriching" things that most of the other characters often found boring and/or sappy.

I get Boom!Amy was self righteous and pushy to the point of hypocrisy, but I guess the catch there is that she was SUPPOSED to be. Most of her worst ego trips ended with her being the butt monkey or realize she shouldn't try to force her opinions down other people's throats, and there was often the feeling that many other characters knew she was sappy or full of it without being treated as in the wrong.

There's so many other self righteous characters that get on my nerves in fiction because their self righteousness is more an accidental result of making them a designated hero and the writers accidentally flip flopping their opinions with what is meant to be merely a powerful no-nonsense attitude just making them look abrasive and holier than thou. Sally and even some interpretations of Sonic himself are especially irritating in this regard.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I get Boom!Amy was self righteous and pushy to the point of hypocrisy, but I guess the catch there is that she was SUPPOSED to be. Most of her worst ego trips ended with her being the butt monkey or realize she shouldn't try to force her opinions down other people's throats, and there was often the feeling that many other characters knew she was sappy or full of it without being treated as in the wrong.

There's so many other self righteous characters that get on my nerves in fiction because their self righteousness is more an accidental result of making them a designated hero and the writers accidentally flip flopping their opinions with what is meant to be merely a powerful no-nonsense attitude just making them look abrasive and holier than thou. Sally and even some interpretations of Sonic himself are especially irritating in this regard.

Eh, guess it goes to show what you can get away with in a non-serious, everyone is a target medium.

[E-122-Psi]

4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Eh, guess it goes to show what you can get away with in a non-serious, everyone is a target medium.

Which is something I tend to appreciate about comical works, compared to more serious ones which have a habit of dividing the comic relief from the dignified competent characters and making an annoying hierarchy. Often the best characters can be badass AND buffoonish.

At least in Boom, even with Sonic as the de facto leader, everyone feels like an equal, even Knuckles and Sticks, while the tons of more serious continuities have this more prevalent use of 'main character and less competent underlings'. Hell it was practically a gimmick in Next Gen.

This is part a reason I don't like the whole 'Sonic being a greater scope' character, I like him having humanity and not being put on this pedestal. Yeah it makes sense for the kids to idolise him, but that's because they're the kids. At the same time making him the victim of the designated pedestal like Sally doesn't help either. There needs to be balance, everyone feeling fallible but still having strengths to even out the others.

[Skull Leader]

On September 5, 2018 at 6:08 AM, DabigRG said:

Eh, guess it goes to show what you can get away with in a non-serious, everyone is a target medium.

Not necessarily. 

Even more serious works like Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai film had a very particular character in Kikuchiyo who unlike the other more dignified samurai, was meant from the very start to be rude, had an ego, was loud, etc  (providing comic relief and essentially being the best character of the film) as well as having his fair share of virtues.

The thing is that if you as a writer set a character on a pedestal as some sort of idealized image, you'll be placing tons of restrictions on how that character has to act like, and when he steps out of that, or contradicts what it is supposed to be, it will stick out more than had you've treated the character like an actual person with a credible personality.

This is why I don't mind Amy in Boom since she is meant to be a bit pretentious, like she knows better than the others, and will suffer the consequences in a comical fashion (like when she helped the robot strike) or realize her mistake and try to fix things, like in the episode where she opens her own restaurant.

In contrast, idealized characters/protagonists who on top have the narrative suck up to them about how awesome/more pure of heart they are is something that really irritates me for how condescending it feels, along with how unrelatable these type of characters can be.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

Not necessarily. 

Even more serious works like Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai film had a very particular character in Kikuchiyo who unlike the other more dignified samurai, was meant from the very start to be rude, had an ego, was loud, etc  (providing comic relief and essentially being the best character of the film) as well as having his fair share of virtues.

The thing is that if you as a writer set a character on a pedestal as some sort of idealized image, you'll be placing tons of restrictions on how that character has to act like, and when he steps out of that, or contradicts what it is supposed to be, it will stick out more than had you've treated the character like an actual person with a credible personality.

This is why I don't mind Amy in Boom since she is meant to be a bit pretentious, like she knows better than the others, and will suffer the consequences in a comical fashion (like when she helped the robot strike) or realize her mistake and try to fix things, like in the episode where she opens her own restaurant.

In contrast, idealized characters/protagonists who on top have the narrative suck up to them about how awesome/more pure of heart they are is something that really irritates me for how condescending it feels, along with how unrelatable these type of characters can be.

...So, pretty much what I just said, minus the occasional Boom!Amy=Sally comparison?

[Skull Leader]

Imagine that Eggman mugs Tails.

Now imagine Silver, the character ST sells as having a great sense of justice do the same thing to Tails because the end justifies the means.

Both do something equally mean and awful to Tails, but only one of them look really bad doing so: Silver. 

Why? Because unlike Eggman, who is meant to be a spiteful jerk, Silver was not. He's elevated by the designers as being above doing such things, and when he contradicts his own principles, his actions will be judged more harshly.

That is more or less a simplified version of the difference E-122 is trying to make.

Alternatively, I believe that there are some cases where even if the character is meant to be flawed like say, Amy in either of her incarnations, their actions are also judged harshly despite the intentional context because people build an idealized image of those characters that overlook their flaws.

 

 

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

Imagine that Eggman mugs Tails.

Now imagine Silver, the character ST sells as having a great sense of justice do the same thing to Tails because the end justifies the means.

Both do something equally mean and awful to Tails, but only one of them look really bad doing so: Silver. 

Why? Because unlike Eggman, who is meant to be a spiteful jerk, Silver was not. He's elevated by the designers as being above doing such things, and when he contradicts his own principles, his actions will be judged more harshly.

That is more or less a simplified version of the difference E-122 is trying to make.

 

 

How about Silver mugs Tails because he is under the impression it's a necessary event to unveil some sort of threat that totally exists and/or will bring about destruction of Blue Skies candy bars?

19 minutes ago, Skull Leader said:

 

Alternatively, I believe that there are some cases where even if the character is meant to be flawed like say, Amy in either of her incarnations, their actions are also judged harshly despite the intentional context because people build an idealized image of those characters that overlook their flaws.

 

 

...Nah, I've leave that alone.

[Scape]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

...Nah, I've leave that alone.

Amy's biggest flaw was being written by hacks who never understood why anyone would like Sonic sincerely

[DabigRG]

Just now, Scape said:

Amy's biggest flaw was being written by hacks who never understood why anyone would like Sonic

That makes sense?

[Fire-N-Space]

Just now, Scape said:

Amy's biggest flaw was being written by hacks who never understood why anyone would like Sonic sincerely

Amy biggest flaw was her haters she was written by good people and she always like Sonic sincerely.