Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kazhnuz]

2 hours ago, Scape said:

* Uses Magic 

* Had a hand in Sir Lancelot's development

* Trusted King Arthur, but he turned out to be a massive asshole 

yeah sounds about right 

I was talking personality wise. There are some parallel possible but Nimue is the doppelganger with the least similar personnality to her "original self". Though, I don't remember much of these point (except magic of course) to be really much addressed in the actual story of the game (maybe they are in the text in the bonus stuff, though). A big part of the difference of personality is normal though, as Nimue as a different role than Amy have, so the changes are normal (as Nimue is a guide and a "mentor/test" to Sonic).

(and for the "Magic" part, for Amy it's mostly "it's told in the manuel", we don't see her often have that part of her in the game (it was a bit in the comic-book, though). TBH, I didn't knew it when I played the game when I was young, before going on forums and stuff like that.)

[Scape]

This fruitcake probably had the biggest impact in Amy's degradation. Who let him write for these games?

[DabigRG]

15 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

For Amy or for Blaze/Shadow/Knuckles ?

For Amy, it's that in his game, she is mostly "the girl of the group", with the different clichés we can get on it (being annoyed by the boy behavior, being the spark of morality for the anti-hero, having to be rescued), with some strange stuff often (the "Violent is Funny" that happens on some of the game she is here, or her talk about Sonic and the End of the World in 2006, that happens in Silver's Story, that is written by Maekawa). I won't talk about Sonic Battle and the "boxercise" fiasco because even if this game really looks like his writing (especially the symbolism and the pacifism), I'm not 100% sure that it is. But the few Maekawa games makes me feel that he doesn't have a real idea of how is Amy character-wise, and try to do what he can.

 

Wait, what was the first game he wrote?

15 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

 

For Blaze/Shadow/Knuckles, one problem that is often shown about them is their superficial resemblance : both of three are kinda-loner, but more importantly duty-filled serious people. And that's what make them great as knight of the round table, as they all had this kind of "honor" that made them fit as knights (Silver would have been great in the story too). But what I liked even more is that Maekawa took this resemblance to show better how they are different people, right from the first cutscene.

For me the opening cutscene show how Gawain/Knuckles is the less "cold" of the three, openly doubting the order of the King (he listen more his heart, for me). Lancelot is the one for who the order are absolute. I think this is a way to make a parallel with the role of Shadow as a weapon, but how also he often obey orders (making him sometime misguided) and can be the most ruthless of the three. Percival state the rules, and how they are defined by loyalty to the King (IIRC in Rush Blaze also defined her by her role), but also see the problem. It show Blaze as the most cautious and reflexive of the three.

Buuut that might be just me over-analysing a cutscene

That is some really good observation there.

I honestly never gave none of the Knights much mind besides Gawain.

[Scape]

If Sonic Xtreme released with no drama, it still would've been btfo by Mario 64

[StaticMania]

Obviously. That perspective gimmick looked really negative.

[Kazhnuz]

10 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Wait, what was the first game he wrote? 

Sonic Adventure 2. Sonic Adventure was written by Akinori Nishiyama (Scenario Writer), who after than became Director of the Advance and similar game, being for a small time the head of Sonic Team after Naka leaved and before Iizuka took the lead. (After than he left ST to focus on Phantasy Star Online and game like that, he moved to SEGA CS3).

[Shadowlax]

Interesting observations on Black Knight, though the shadow I think I think is sort of related to this thread isn't accurate. There's this weird idea that all shadow does is obey orders. Shadow's whole dealy was that he was gonna do...whatever the hell he wanted to do. Even with Gun that relationship when its actually elaborated upon is tenuous at best because... shadow does whatever the hell shadow wants to do. That was kinda the point of the end of his game, I guess people want to paint shadow as solider, when he's never really been that. Heck even in the disaster that was forces, shadow is essentially out doing whatever the fuck he wants and then decides to show up, I don't think isn't an official part of the " resistance" . He's sort of a wild card I guess. You can reason with him though

 

Why did I mention all this I wanted to talk about my team dark related opinion I do not agree with. Or portrayal. Simply, I don't think team dark hangs out at all. There's this idea of rouge being a team mom ( which... is kinda problematic for a few reasons, but we will get to that ) that I don't think is accurate, one because... not everyone woman on a team has to be mom, she can be as loose with her morality as anyone else... in fact rouge is quite loose with her morality. But two, because that comes with team dark hanging out and she takes shadow places. That doesn't happen. I don't think they hang out, I don't think shadow and omega hang out on base. I think Rouge calls them in, because as mentioned above shadow and omega's relationship with gun is tenuous at best. They do a thing, she doesn't see them again unless she actively seeks them for something, and I don't think she often does. 

I think this idea comes from a very limited view of what friendship can be, and partially from sega creating these teams. But I just don't agree with the opinion that team dark are these thick and thieves crew. They don't hang out. They are 3 people who ended up in a crazy situation who don't mind or even might like one another. But If they were to hang out any longer than they needed to, things might not go so well. With rouge and shadow being a bit closer than they are with omega. 

So that's my contribution I guess

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Sonic Adventure 2. Sonic Adventure was written by Akinori Nishiyama (Scenario Writer), who after than became Director of the Advance and similar game, being for a small time the head of Sonic Team after Naka leaved and before Iizuka took the lead. (After than he left ST to focus on Phantasy Star Online and game like that, he moved to SEGA CS3).

Oooh, okay, that actually explains a bit.

 

[Kazhnuz]

6 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Interesting observations on Black Knight, though the shadow I think I think is sort of related to this thread isn't accurate. There's this weird idea that all shadow does is obey orders. Shadow's whole dealy was that he was gonna do...whatever the hell he wanted to do. Even with Gun that relationship when its actually elaborated upon is tenuous at best because... shadow does whatever the hell shadow wants to do. That was kinda the point of the end of his game, I guess people want to paint shadow as solider, when he's never really been that. Heck even in the disaster that was forces, shadow is essentially out doing whatever the fuck he wants and then decides to show up, I don't think isn't an official part of the " resistance" . He's sort of a wild card I guess. You can reason with him though

Shadow isn't a soldier, he is a "weapon with a soul" (most of his scenario in Battle is based on that). He can make his own decision, and he fight before everything "for the world" (his 2006 scenario is based on that, showing that he is unbreakable), but in most game, he is shown as working for or with someone (and for me that's something brilliant with the character, because it counterbalance how much he is powerful, and tie both that part of the character in a same symbolic).

TBH, Shadow haven't really be shown to do "whatever he wanted". Mostly, he was driven either by understanding his past, or by his "mission" to protect earth/mobius/whatever. The point of his game was to make him let go of the past, and establish him definitively as a hero of the franchise, not really saying that he do "whatever he want", tbh. I don't really seem him as as much a wildcard as Sonic can be, for instance.

[Shadowlax]

5 hours ago, Kazhnuz said:

Shadow isn't a soldier, he is a "weapon with a soul" (most of his scenario in Battle is based on that). He can make his own decision, and he fight before everything "for the world" (his 2006 scenario is based on that, showing that he is unbreakable), but in most game, he is shown as working for or with someone (and for me that's something brilliant with the character, because it counterbalance how much he is powerful, and tie both that part of the character in a same symbolic).

1) Battle kind isn't canon, especially for shadow. We will get to that in a second. 

2) Working with friends doesn't mean he's a weapon with a soul, it doesn't mean he's not doing what he wants... he's just working with friends? Friendship does not negate that attitude. That's frankly a very limited view of what friendship is

3) Every time he works with someone he chooses to work with someone, and if you are ignoring this you have missed the entire point of the character. 

 

Quote

TBH, Shadow haven't really be shown to do "whatever he wanted". Mostly, he was driven either by understanding his past, or by his "mission" to protect earth/mobius/whatever. The point of his game was to make him let go of the past, and establish him definitively as a hero of the franchise, not really saying that he do "whatever he want", tbh. I don't really seem him as as much a wildcard as Sonic can be, for instance.

1)The point of his game, IS LITERALLY DOING WHATEVER HE WANTS, that's literally the main mode of story telling and the main mechanic in the game. You wanna be an evil dickhead, go for it. Wanna be the hero go for it ( that's the canon one ) . Wanna be an apathetic asshole, by all means. And even at the end of the game, he does what he wants. At the end of the game, he throws away a picture of maria and gerald. Its because he's making his own decisions and putting his past behind him. And what happened in the next game, he made a choice to work with the entity that has brought him so much harm because maybe there might be some benefit to the world at large. This is a choice and just because technically he has a boss or something or someone who may give him a mission does not invalidate that choice. 

2) Battle ain't canon, for shadow at least. Shadow the hedgehog basically retcnons all the shit in that game with " ALIENS " and that's what they continue to reference, so, i'm assuming its that. 

3) Him doing whatever he wants is literally his character archetype. I like shadow, I like seeing the best in him. But he's an asshole who is a loose canon that does whatever the fuck he wants and sometimes that shit don't work out because he's an asshole. That's the whole point of his character. You talk about consistent characterization that's been consistent since day uno. To reference the comics, post restructuring/reboot/IDW shadow is literally that. Every single thing he's in , its him going off to do some shit and then he either decides not to do it because he doesn't want to , or shit goes south because he's flying off the handle. Shadow and Sonic are loose canons, they are just two different versions of loose canons. Even in the crapfest that was forces...shadow did whatever the hell he wanted, he dissapears, you don't know where he went. He just shows up half way in the story. Its even consistent in bad stories. 

4) Even his powers are a literal representation of him breaking the rules of the universe he exists in. He exists in  world where the mode of travel is running fast, and he can teleport and stop time. His entire theme his character design is " Edgy rebel man " . And " He'll do anything to get what he wants " has been present in like every , single character bio for him, ever. 

Not to be mean or nothing but your explanation suggests a very limited view of like , how character elements can be portrayed differently with different personalities, and friendship and having a job .

 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

12 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Why did I mention all this I wanted to talk about my team dark related opinion I do not agree with. Or portrayal. Simply, I don't think team dark hangs out at all. There's this idea of rouge being a team mom ( which... is kinda problematic for a few reasons, but we will get to that ) that I don't think is accurate, one because... not everyone woman on a team has to be mom, she can be as loose with her morality as anyone else... in fact rouge is quite loose with her morality. But two, because that comes with team dark hanging out and she takes shadow places. That doesn't happen. I don't think they hang out, I don't think shadow and omega hang out on base. I think Rouge calls them in, because as mentioned above shadow and omega's relationship with gun is tenuous at best. They do a thing, she doesn't see them again unless she actively seeks them for something, and I don't think she often does.

Your point kinda makes me think of a status I made sometime earlier:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=933081&type=status

Quote

 

Rouge is a rather unusual character. She's someone who's arguably got more life experience than either of the other members of Team Dark, which aids why she would be considered the leader since she's arguably more mature overall despite being such a vain and shady person.

That being said, her lifestyle and her shady professions also suggest something of a cynical side to her, even if there isn't much onscreen evidence to prove it. After all, I can't imagine that a spy/government agent and part-time treasure hunter has much of a solid life, or at the very least probably has some cynical undertones to the way she thinks. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that she's someone who sees the world as very dog eat dog, that the only way to get around in life is less to try to fix a broken world determined to remain broken, but rather to make sure you're the top of the crap pile, and to at least always be ready to manipulate and control how others perceive you in some way or fashion, since others will try to do the same.

It also makes me wonder whether Team Dark's ever had points where their unity breaks down, where Shadow or Omega just go into dark places that Rouge intellectually knows how to deal with, but her life experiences make it so that she can't really help them except through half-assed therapy/help mixed with manipulation that doesn't work so well since they're both familiar with her methods, or just aren't keen to have their mindset and beliefs manipulated and tampered with, even if done with benevolent intent.

 

While granted much of my thought here is pretty much speculation and partially what I kinda expect from her rather than what she might actually be, but it does highlight to me how much Team Dark on paper sounds more like a group of people who can only work together well when the stakes are high, but in more personal situations or anything like that, they'd probably end up hitting some roadblocks that they'd either just sidestep or ignore. Yes I'm aware that Heroes does show that they have the capacity to care for each other, but I just have a hard time believing that that a thief/spy/government agent with vanity and manipulative tendencies would be able to helm a team with a broody terse loner with a wildcard streak and a psychopathic belligerent killing machine as easily as many past stories have shown.

Mind you, I do also kinda think that the whole idea of Teams for the Sonic Franchise is a HUGE double edged sword that's only resulted in many potentially good characters being flattened or homogenized for the sake of forced teaming, with only maybe two groups genuinely benefiting from it. Team Dark and Team Sonic in my mind would frankly end up being the most dysfunctional by far, Team Dark for the reasons I mentioned above, and Team Sonic for similar reasons except more due to the fact that they'd realistically never actually be around each other that often to actually BE a Team. I mean Sonic on paper is a wanderer with the only consistent ally being his buddy, brother and sidekick Tails, who would naturally work alongside him the best. Then you've got Knuckles, who on paper is the guy who tends to only stay in one place and whose relationship swings from friendly to distant depending on the circumstances, but for the most part would be rather distant and not really get involved unless push comes to shove. Amy's the next likely to be around Sonic, but her relationship either ranges from friendly to annoying, not to mention her clingyness issues in the past.

The only two groups who I see Teams generally working well for are those who were explicitly introduced as Teams from the get go instead of being forcibly shoehorned into a group, like Team Chaotix and the Bablyon Rogues. Both of them benefit from being essentially dysfunctional family groups with enough characterization to generate conflict and also show that they do have a camaraderie.

I dunno, I'm just rambling at this point.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Your point kinda makes me think of a status I made sometime earlier:

https://board.sonicstadium.org/profile/2255-seneddtor-missile/?status=933081&type=status

While granted much of my thought here is pretty much speculation and partially what I kinda expect from her rather than what she might actually be, but it does highlight to me how much Team Dark on paper sounds more like a group of people who can only work together well when the stakes are high, but in more personal situations or anything like that, they'd probably end up hitting some roadblocks that they'd either just sidestep or ignore. Yes I'm aware that Heroes does show that they have the capacity to care for each other, but I just have a hard time believing that that a thief/spy/government agent with vanity and manipulative tendencies would be able to helm a team with a broody terse loner with a wildcard streak and a psychopathic belligerent killing machine as easily as many past stories have shown.

Mind you, I do also kinda think that the whole idea of Teams for the Sonic Franchise is a HUGE double edged sword that's only resulted in many potentially good characters being flattened or homogenized for the sake of forced teaming, with only maybe two groups genuinely benefiting from it. Team Dark and Team Sonic in my mind would frankly end up being the most dysfunctional by far, Team Dark for the reasons I mentioned above, and Team Sonic for similar reasons except more due to the fact that they'd realistically never actually be around each other that often to actually BE a Team. I mean Sonic on paper is a wanderer with the only consistent ally being his buddy, brother and sidekick Tails, who would naturally work alongside him the best. Then you've got Knuckles, who on paper is the guy who tends to only stay in one place and whose relationship swings from friendly to distant depending on the circumstances, but for the most part would be rather distant and not really get involved unless push comes to shove. Amy's the next likely to be around Sonic, but her relationship either ranges from friendly to annoying, not to mention her clingyness issues in the past.

The only two groups who I see Teams generally working well for are those who were explicitly introduced as Teams from the get go instead of being forcibly shoehorned into a group, like Team Chaotix and the Bablyon Rogues. Both of them benefit from being essentially dysfunctional family groups with enough characterization to generate conflict and also show that they do have a camaraderie.

I dunno, I'm just rambling at this point.

Ok , we are kind of similar pages. With this, there's a sort of dysfunction that occurs do to who the characters are that don't make them some happy family , far from it. The cloeset ones might be rouge in shadow because they might like one another , but that has never really been acted upon in the games plots anyway. That doesn't excuse bad story telling of course, i think one of the issues with the shadowfall story in the archie comics was I felt like rouge would have asked shadow about what's going on a bit more often. But generally they probably don't hang out and aren't really equipped to handle each others problems. Its why I want team dark members to hang out with other people because there might be other characters more equipped to handle more interesting interaction. To reference the comics again, Knuckles got shadow in a way I don't think a lot of other characters actually did , because of knuckles's unique perspective on the world. I can see that happening with rouge with various other characters, or quite the opposite.

For example I think blaze and rouge .. just wouldn't really get along. 

I think the team structure is this forced thing that for the most part isn't really needed and I would like them to dissolve it. 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 To reference the comics again, Knuckles got shadow in a way I don't think a lot of other characters actually did , because of knuckles's unique perspective on the world.

I haven't seen that bit, what did he get exactly?

[Shadowlax]

Just now, SenEDDtor Missile said:

I haven't seen that bit, what did he get exactly?

So what he got was, why shadow is the way he is. I feel like there are a lot of characters who brush off shadow for being grumpy with out thinking why he's grumpy. But knuckles while he was being tricked by someone pretending to be an echinda, had shadow telling him it was obviously a trick and he was silly for believing him. The guy pretending to be an echidna was even a bit alarmed at how blunt shadow was. 

Knuckles then says something like " You don't trust anyone because your family is a bunch of alien monste...OOOOOH " 

And he kind of gets, everyone in shadow's life has kind of tried to use him as a weapon. His creator, the people who murded his friend and the same or rather their decedents who he now moonlights for , and his alien dad. And his alien uncle who only existed in the comics. He apologizes to , its a neat moment that solidifies why these characters need to interact with other people. 

Knuckles is a guy who's just trying to find a family holding on to what he can because he doesn't have one. Shadow learned from day 0 that things are temporary and is willing to let go of his family and has. He has been forced to, he saw it get ripped away and two other people who are technically his family try to use him. 

Before this, in the previous arc shadow and knuckles fight and during the fight shadow is like " You can find something new to live for " and knuckles kind of just rejects the notion, it feels like part of the reason knuckles is so annoyed by shadow is that at the time... he didn't get him at all.  And then after that fight, and into the arc we started with knuckles...actually is effected by shadows words, amy gives him a pep talk ( which is a wonderful amy moment where while I think she's 100% wrong works for her character ) , and he sort of gains more confidnece. But after a fight with someone he previously didn't respect who, not only was just as strong as he was, saved his life while fighting and was able to fight way longer than he was, he was questioning himself. And this lead into him questioning shadow. 

And when he actually considered the other person. Knuckles, GOT shadow. 

[Kazhnuz]

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

1) Battle kind isn't canon, especially for shadow. We will get to that in a second.  

2) Working with friends doesn't mean he's a weapon with a soul, it doesn't mean he's not doing what he wants... he's just working with friends? Friendship does not negate that attitude. That's frankly a very limited view of what friendship is 

3) Every time he works with someone he chooses to work with someone, and if you are ignoring this you have missed the entire point of the character.

I never said that when he worked with other people, he didn't wanted to. What I mostly disagreeing with is showing him as some kind of wildcard, when except in some game, he is shown to be way more focused than a Sonic or other character like that, making him similar to Knuckles (before he seemingly sold the Master Emerald) and Blaze.

Him being "obediant" was a strong word though, I agree with that. It's mostly a combination of him being "loyal" and somewhat ruthless with his own method, or something like that.

9 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

1)The point of his game, IS LITERALLY DOING WHATEVER HE WANTS, that's literally the main mode of story telling and the main mechanic in the game. You wanna be an evil dickhead, go for it. Wanna be the hero go for it ( that's the canon one ) . Wanna be an apathetic asshole, by all means. And even at the end of the game, he does what he wants. At the end of the game, he throws away a picture of maria and gerald. Its because he's making his own decisions and putting his past behind him. And what happened in the next game, he made a choice to work with the entity that has brought him so much harm because maybe there might be some benefit to the world at large. This is a choice and just because technically he has a boss or something or someone who may give him a mission does not invalidate that choice. 

2) Battle ain't canon, for shadow at least. Shadow the hedgehog basically retcnons all the shit in that game with " ALIENS " and that's what they continue to reference, so, i'm assuming its that. 

3) Him doing whatever he wants is literally his character archetype. I like shadow, I like seeing the best in him. But he's an asshole who is a loose canon that does whatever the fuck he wants and sometimes that shit don't work out because he's an asshole. That's the whole point of his character. You talk about consistent characterization that's been consistent since day uno. To reference the comics, post restructuring/reboot/IDW shadow is literally that. Every single thing he's in , its him going off to do some shit and then he either decides not to do it because he doesn't want to , or shit goes south because he's flying off the handle. Shadow and Sonic are loose canons, they are just two different versions of loose canons. Even in the crapfest that was forces...shadow did whatever the hell he wanted, he dissapears, you don't know where he went. He just shows up half way in the story. Its even consistent in bad stories.

The basic concept of Shadow is "choose a road", but for me the story isn't really based on the fact that Shadow do always "just the thing he want" (especially as he really seems lost in a big part of the game… which is pretty normal for someone amnesiac that is living an alien invasion related to his unknown past). Even if the point of "weapon with a soul" wasn't really reused in Shadow the Hedgehog, his artifical nature often do something similar in the symbolism and storytelling of the game : but most of the plot points of the story is based on the representation of Shadow as an "object". A failed experiment in one ending, and for Black Doom, as a weapon. Eggman also try to "objectify" him as his creation. The fact that he could choose whatever road was also related to his character developpement at that time : he wasn't sure of what he was, so we were in a real where everything was possible (especially as we can do whatever we want, but there is a canon ending that his shown the be the "true path" for Shadow).

I never said that he never made a choice (I said that he was able to make his own decision). The part I disagree the most is the "whatever" he want (the "wildcard" part). If the very concept of Shadow's end is to him finally making willingly the choice to protect the world, he is shown in the subsequent game to be still driven by this will. (I a way, we could see a link with the Kantian vision of freedom, even if I strongly think that no Sonic writers have read Kant (and I understand them) and that's it's a pure coincidence). It might also be related to me being more of an Adventure fan, and not knowing enough the last games, though. For Forces, the problem I have is that it's mostly not explained why he disappeared for six month. The Episode Shadow show him as pretty focused on missions, while being an asshole, but nothing really create a coherence within the story for his disappearance.

Shadow is sometimes shown as an "asshole" (depending on the game, though, Shadow's archetype is really oscilling between Edgy Jesus and the Edgy Independant Guy xD), I agree with that, and he often do the things the way he want… And for me that's the important point : he doesn't do whatever he want, but he do it the way he want, the way he works. (Sonic X when to stop the Metarex he decide to kill Cosmo, for instance) He is driven by a mission, he accept to work for other (as long as he recognize them, I'm not saying that he will obey to anybody without thinking)… but he'll do the thing the way he want. In a way that make it a good opposite of Sonic, who will often act in the righteous way, but who like having no constraint or anything… that's why Shadow is better as a bigger-scale character than Sonic, often.

 

And honestly everything I said in that post is moot point (but I have too much free time). Interpretation is the effect of mostly how we where affected by this licence. Shadow is actually a bit inconsistant in the way he is figured : Maekawa's Shadow was often based on the idea of redemption, and even went a bit "Christic" in 2006 where the parallel is quite visible, while other stories show him as more independant. Basically my vision is what it is because of my preferences and stuff, and because I will interpret some stuff of the second type of stories based of what I decided as "important" in the first parts (which is even stronger as I'm a pretty big fan of Shadow and I liked the symbolic I saw in him). That's why I'm not criticizing really your interpretation, that is pretty valid too.

( I don't say that especially for you, but more "generally" because it's something I find important to remember in these case of discussion when we act a bit like our headcanons are "the canon", so maybe this part will be useful for someone, IDK xD)

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kazhnuz said:

 


And honestly everything I said in that post is moot point (but I have too much free time). Interpretation is the effect of mostly how we where affected by this licence. Shadow is actually a bit inconsistant in the way he is figured : Maekawa's Shadow was often based on the idea of redemption, and even went a bit "Christic" in 2006 where the parallel is quite visible, while other stories show him as more independant. Basically my vision is what it is because of my preferences and stuff, and because I will interpret some stuff of the second type of stories based of what I decided as "important" in the first parts (which is even stronger as I'm a pretty big fan of Shadow and I liked the symbolic I saw in him). That's why I'm not criticizing really your interpretation, that is pretty valid too.

( I don't say that especially for you, but more "generally" because it's something I find important to remember in these case of discussion when we act a bit like our headcanons are "the canon", so maybe this part will be useful for someone, IDK xD)

 

While I think stuff like this is semantics

Quote

And for me that's the important point : he doesn't do whatever he want, but he do it the way he want, the way he works.

Because this is him doing whatever he wants, He chooses to work at gun, and he chooses not to. In 06 he chooses to work with eggman, this is a choice. You are trying to make it seem like its not , but shadow is making a choice. " By fair means or Foul' this is consistent with who he is as a character. ( Its actually so consistent that even his sonic boom terrible version is just that cranked to %500 vegeta style). And to bring up the comic again... its the first thing he does in the new comic...the first thing. That's how they wanted to introduce his character to people, I Think that says something.

That said its up to interpretation , I guess. I just think that people try to paint him as some loyal soilder, and I feel like... the most consistent character trait shadow has is if , if he doesn't like how shit is going... he'll just leave. That said your interpretation isn't awful, and there are much worse official interpretations that yours . The aforementioned Terrible sonic boom version, that time they made shadow a fascist dictator in the comic ( Throws up in my mouth ) , to be quite honest...every version of shadow in the comics before they restructured the comics. STC too, all very bad. 

To summarize how I view shadow, He's Just captain america, but his origin story is bucky's. I don't know if you follow comics , but despite captain america cap has actually rebelled against the US government several times. When he felt like the values of the US government weren't reflecting the values he had ( When marvel comics were protesting particularly bad presidents ) . That's how I view shadow, he chooses to work with you if you think you can help or he feels like he needs to. But he will bounce. He's making that choice, its not about being a soilder, its about helping people the best way he can. I think people are too focused on him working with gun, and less focused on WHY he works with gun. 

That said this conversation was extremely pleasant , and thanks for talking with me

[Kazhnuz]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

You are trying to make it seem like its not , but shadow is making a choice.

Just on that point : my point is that there is a difference between making a choice and doing whatever we want, and that Shadow illustrate this difference. He do choices, but he doesn't to them just because "he want to" (and I think that on that point) : he is driven by something noble. I a way, I think that we could say that Sonic and Shadow illustrate two vision of freedom. Sonic do stuff because he feel like too, while Shadow is more "driven" by something (his will to help people). (that's why I talked about Kant, as Kant said that true freedom is acting freely according to what moral reason say to us to do, which is for him following the categorical imperative -- I'm not sure about the translation xD)

And I agree with you with the comparison with Capitain America : if GUN became a threat to what is for me the main motivation of Shadow (protecting earth/mobius/whatever), he would be the first one to go solve the problem. I think that his reason to work with GUN is that it's the most pragmatical choice to fulfill his "role".

 

It was pleasant for me too, it's interesting to confront two differing interpretation.

[DabigRG]

Here's an unpopular opinion for ya'll: While I'm sure there's interesting stuff being said, tangents and topics heavily revolving around Shadow were some of my earliest kryptonite here.

[Guergy]

I don't think Shadow is a bad character but I do agree that he is polarizing. 

[Cayenne]

A very unpopular one from me:

Sonic Heroes is deeply flawed, but has the wildest level design of the 3D games. Using the characters as balls in a world full of giant pinball tables and bingo cards, turning the level upside down, grinding rails in PTSD inducing locations (when this game was new and I was just a very silly preteen afraid of heights, Rail Canyon, Bullet Station and Egg Fleet would almost wet my pants)...I would gladly accept something creative and cool as this in a future project for consoles.

[Guergy]

I didn't get a chance to finish Sonic Heroes but I do like some of the levels in the game. I agree.

[StaticMania]

Nobody had a problem with Sonic Heroes' aesthetics and themes...it's like the truest transition of CLASSIC to modern.

[Guergy]

I think that Archie comics is okay, not perfect but okay.

[Yoko/葉子]

Might as well make an announcement, while sharing an opinion.

Some of us like to hear games in Japanese. I am very happy for Mamiko Noto and think she will have the perfect singing voice for her upcoming baby.

She is the Japanese voice of Merlina in Black Knight and has a singing voice that intentionally has a sort of lullaby effect.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2018-09-17/strawberry-marshmallow-more-manga-creators-celebrate-mamiko-noto-wedding/.136910

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2018-09-14/as-the-seiyu-world-turns-two-marriages-and-a-pregnancy/.136749

 

Noto-san, fans around the world can't fully express their happiness for you in words.

So many Sonic voice actors with kids now, a new generation.

[Red Hot Jack]

Might be an unpopular opinion but I tried to make this pie chart, I feel like this is what usually happens in Sonic stories: