Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Heckboy]

I dunno, where does anyone want the Modern brand to go after almost 20 years of mediocrity? Mania and tie-in stuff like Mania Adventures have completely revitalized the Classic series, now take this as a chance to branch out more with that consistently more well-received visual style and gameplay. 

[Cuz]

You run the risk of building back up to the same problem. Whether the classic brand can use the established cast or not it will still need characters and fresh settings, probably more than it's got. Maybe Modern's large cast is unwieldy. Okay, but drawing lines in the sand is just us asking for more characters to fill out the cracks in the long run, when I think time could be better spent using and developing existing ones.

[Red Hot Jack]

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Does the Modern Branch sharing Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Knuckles, and in some certain cases, Amy with the Classic Branch make Classic less unique and make fans see no point in playing Classic games? Why is it not the gameplay that makes people want to play a Classic or Modern game?

Furthermore, why in the world does Mighty and Ray being present mean that some other characters have to be replace? Not gonna lie, this last part makes no sense.

Obviously because there isn't room for everyone in the games, did you see Forces? There were tons of characters and yet:

- No one got a big role (aside maybe Shadow), either they were written badly (Tails) or they were just exposition (Knuckles and the others).

- Various missing characters like Blaze and Cream.

This is why I said the modern cast is already full of people, are we gonna add Mighty and Ray too?

I'm not even sure they should add Sticks to Modern in my opinion, I love her and I want her in, but is there room for her? Without replacing others? Probably not. I still look at it in this way: Sticks, like Cream in Sonic X, got her chance at a cartoon, and at spotlight, and now it's done, so she's likely gonna be forgotten (sadly), maybe she will cameo somewhere though. Mighty and Ray already got a big chance at being resurrected via Mania Plus.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Cuz said:

You start compartmentalizing it all you limit the possibilities.

I think the history of the series shows that not putting limits on possibilities is no better. This split's not my ideal solution but it's at least resulted in one genuinely great game compared to inconsistent games with halfassed pandering or games that straight up abandoned the parts of the series i care about.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, by definition, yes? The more things they have in common the less unique they are.

Okay, Dio, the fact that you would go and omit half my sentence is really telling how much you’re sidestepping the point for the sake of arguing. Even more when you’re considering this “poaching” on Classic Sonic.

So I’m just gonna be blunt with you on this: no, Modern and Classic sharing characters does not make either one any less unique. They both have a whole lot more to them than just which characters are present, and if Mighty and Ray were in Modern fans aren’t going to shun Classic or find them any less unique as characters just because of that. Even with their preference, they’re not that bigoted towards the other branch to treat them any less as unique.

1 hour ago, I Love Sticks said:

Obviously because there isn't room for everyone in the games, did you see Forces? There were tons of characters and yet:

- No one got a big role (aside maybe Shadow), either they were written badly (Tails) or they were just exposition (Knuckles and the others).

- Various missing characters like Blaze and Cream.

This is why I said the modern cast is already full of people, are we gonna add Mighty and Ray too?

You don’t think bad writing had a factor in that problem? The same exact thing happened in Modern games like Lost World when all those characters were nowhere to be seen or even games like Generations when they were present and did even less. Meanwhile, works with equally as many characters like Marvel’s Avengers, particularly Civil War and Infinity War don’t have this problem with such a high cast—granted, people find other faults, but their quality makes them pretty hard pressed to call out the cast size over it. Or if you want to stick to just the Sonic, Archie (which actually used Mighty and Ray with the Modern cast and several other characters) and even IDW has given these characters more in small arcs than what the games have done in the past several years combined.

Which illustrates my point even more. If we had someone or a development team that gave many characters big roles (not at once, but when appropriate), were well written, and more than just exposition, the number of characters wouldn’t be a problem, would it?

There’s only as much room as you can make, and I find it hard to believe a plot like Forces couldn’t have made room for everyone when you and I both know that they hardly made an effort to making room in that game to begin with, like they’ve done in the games before it. Adding Mighty and Ray isn’t going to hurt that.

What will hurt it is whether the team behind it isn’t competent enough to do so, and we don’t need to state the obvious as it is over whether Sonic Team is capable of doing so at them moment.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Oaky, Dio, the fact that you would go and omit half my sentence it is really telling how much you’re sidestepping the point for the sake of arguing.

I'm not sidestepping any point. Your sentence made two points, I commented on the one that I felt you were wrong on, and I saw no need to explicitly agree with the other.

"Uniqueness" is not a purely binary matter, even though there would still be reasons to play classic dimension games if they made modern versions of Mighty and Ray, there would be fewer things unique to them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not sidestepping any point. Your sentence made two points, I commented on the one that I felt you were wrong on, and I saw no need to explicitly agree with the other.

Okay, so you sidestepped half of one point I was making. That’s not any better.

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"Uniqueness" is not a purely binary matter, even though there would still be reasons to play classic dimension games if they made modern versions of Mighty and Ray, there would be fewer things unique to them.

Then quit making it into a purely binary matter based on whether they’re in the Classic or Modern branch. No where in this whole discussion did I say it was.

My entire point was that it wasn’t. And what fewer things unique to them would they lack being in both Modern and Classic games? Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles didn’t lack anything unique in Classic games just because they were in Modern, mainly because no one except those intent on maintaining this division sees them as less unique based on their branch. If you think uniqueness isn’t a binary matter, then act like it.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Okay, so you sidestepped half of one point I was making. That’s not any better.

I'm not sidestepping anything. I'm just not wasting time and bloating my posts by replying to points that I agree with. I thought this was obvious.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

And what fewer things unique to them would they lack being in both Modern and Classic games?

There would be fewer things unique to the classic dimension if Mighty and Ray also existed in the modern dimension (specifically, "having Mighty" and "having Ray" would no longer be unique to the classic dimension). That is what the discussion is about, not about what is unique or not to the individual characters.

[Wraith]

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I think the history of the series shows that not putting limits on possibilities is no better. This split's not my ideal solution but it's at least resulted in one genuinely great game compared to inconsistent games with halfassed pandering or games that straight up abandoned the parts of the series i care about.

I don't see how the continuity being split made Sonic Mania possible. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

26 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not sidestepping anything. I'm just not wasting time and bloating my posts by replying to points that I agree with. I thought this was obvious.

Dio, there’s nothing obvious about that when you omit parts from whole sentences to make a rebuttal. You don’t have to say “I agree” to points you do agree with, but what you’re doing definitely doesn’t come close to agreeing with anything I’m making a point on. And I’m pretty sure you know that.

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There would be fewer things unique to the classic dimension if Mighty and Ray also existed in the modern dimension (specifically, "having Mighty" and "having Ray" would no longer be unique to the classic dimension). That is what the discussion is about, not about what is unique or not to the individual characters.

No, there wouldn’t. S3&K isn’t seen as less unique than the likes of Sonic Adventure just because it has the same three playable characters (and three more), as well as levels like Ice Cap, Angel Island, and expands on the lore behind the Master Emerald and the Island’s history they share together. The same would be the case with Mighty and Ray being in the Modern settings—they would not be seen as any less unique for being present in both like Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles are.

These things have their own merits. Sharing them doesn’t devalue that anymore than Sonic being known as a blue hedgehog in every media he’s present in does.

You claim this isn’t a purely binary matter, and yet you keep treating them along binary lines of Classic and Modern and claiming that one can only be more unique if it’s not in the other. That’s a contradiction if there ever was one.

[Plasme]

I'd love for the whole idea of Classic and Modern to be thrown out the window to get rid of arguments like this.

Now I do think there should be 2D and 3D separate series (and I personally think they should try to capture the spirit of the Genesis games), but I think segregating them into two different dimensions and sets of characters is frustrating. They are ultimately the same characters but just in different art styles. The developers should feel free to use what characters they see fit without worrying about affecting different dimensions. Especially when the franchise doesn't even care about the lore at this point.

[Guergy]

8 minutes ago, Plasme said:

I'd love for the whole idea of Classic and Modern to be thrown out the window to get rid of arguments like this.

Now I do think there should be 2D and 3D separate series (and I personally think they should try to capture the spirit of the Genesis games), but I think segregating them into two different dimensions and sets of characters is frustrating. They are ultimately the same characters but just in different art styles. The developers should feel free to use what characters they see fit without worrying about affecting different dimensions. Especially when the franchise doesn't even care about the lore at this point.

I am not sure if it is that simple........I think it just needs some direction.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 minutes ago, Guergy said:

I am not sure if it is that simple........I think it just needs some direction.

Good direction specifically.

Although honestly, direction is a lot simpler than what they’re doing now. Heck, there was some sembalce of it before the whole Two World’s thing came about, and Classic being retconned as a separate dimension rather than Sonic’s past seems to have made it worse sent it leads to moments that we’re in now.

That’s on top of them not executing ideas well in the first place. 

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I don't see how the continuity being split made Sonic Mania possible. 

Well, it's not the continuity split itself, but them understanding that "classic Sonic" is a viable and separate idea from modern Sonic. Not understanding that gave us Sonic 4.

 

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Dio, there’s nothing obvious about that when you omit parts from whole sentences to make a rebuttal. You don’t have to say “I agree” to points you do agree with, but what you’re doing definitely doesn’t come close to agreeing with anything I’m making a point on.

Okay, I guess I do have to make it explicit (again)? Yes, there are things other than Mighty and Ray (or any other particular characters) that are unique to the classic continuity/dimension/game(s) and there would still be reasons for people to play future "classic" games even if certain characters were not unique to the classic continuity.

However, if Mighty and Ray were introduced to the modern universe, then the classic universe would have fewer unique points than it currently does.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

No, there wouldn’t. S3&K isn’t seen as less unique than the likes of Sonic Adventure just because it has the same three playable characters (and three more)

Okay let me explain it this way. SA has the 3 playable characters from 3&K, plus 3 more. Those 3 more characters, Amy, Big, and Gamma, are unique to SA (when we're considering just SA and 3&K). If Sega somehow magically updated 3&K so that Amy was also playable in it, then SA would only have two unique playable characters. SA would lose a small bit of what makes it unique.

1 minute ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

You claim this isn’t a purely binary matter, and yet you keep treating them along binary lines of Classic and Modern that one can only be unique if it’s not in the other. That’s a contradiction if there ever was one.

If your point is that a modern Mighty wouldn't be identical to classic Mighty, then that's true. But they don't have to be identical for my point to be true. The very fact that people are asking for these characters to be added to the modern dimension shows that there's some perceived value to them that is different than the value of other characters, some fundamental "Mighty"-ness or "Ray"-ness that wouldn't be replicated if Sonic Team introduced two entirely new characters to the modern dimension. That is the unique element that the classic dimension would lose if modern versions of Mighty and Ray were introduced.

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well, it's not the continuity split itself, but them understanding that "classic Sonic" is a viable and separate idea from modern Sonic. Not understanding that gave us Sonic 4.

 

It's a viable idea but it never had to be a seperate one. 

[Diogenes]

To get the full package, gameplay, graphics, music, etc, it kinda did. Not necessarily a separate continuity (though that does help it operate independently and not have to worry about affecting the modern games), but that modern Sonic had grown into a separate thing stylistically and that there was an audience for the things that were specifically "classic" and not what modern was doing.

Again making it a separate continuity wasn't strictly necessary, but it was the means through which we got the game.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Okay, I guess I do have to make it explicit (again)? Yes, there are things other than Mighty and Ray (or any other particular characters) that are unique to the classic continuity/dimension/game(s) and there would still be reasons for people to play future "classic" games even if certain characters were not unique to the classic continuity.

However, if Mighty and Ray were introduced to the modern universe, then the classic universe would have fewer unique points than it currently does.

Simply because they’re not exclusive? Yeah, once again, I’m not buying that.

At the end of the day, I think people would care more about playing potential favorites and wouldn’t consider either universe more or less unique. It wasn’t more unique when they were absent, bringing in doesn’t make it any more unique either.

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Okay let me explain it this way. SA has the 3 playable characters from 3&K, plus 3 more. Those 3 more characters, Amy, Big, and Gamma, are unique to SA (when we're considering just SA and 3&K). If Sega somehow magically updated 3&K so that Amy was also playable in it, then SA would only have two unique playable characters. SA would lose a small bit of what makes it unique.

No, because the merits that make S3&K unique from SA isn’t through the absence Amy. SA doesn’t lose one iota of what makes it unique because they update S3&K to include Amy. It would still be unique because of the elements that made the games fun to play in the first place. 

Removing things without adding something of equal value or greater to make up for it would definitely make them lose a small bit what makes them unique, but having Amy included in a hypothetical DLC for S3&K would be the equivalent of playing Knuckles in Sonic 2 through the use of the Lock-on—of which on that merit, S3&K didn’t lose anything unique just because you can play Knuckles in Sonic 2.

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If your point is that a modern Mighty wouldn't be identical to classic Mighty, then that's true. But they don't have to be identical for my point to be true. The very fact that people are asking for these characters to be added to the modern dimension shows that there's some perceived value to them that is different than the value of other characters, some fundamental "Mighty"-ness or "Ray"-ness that wouldn't be replicated if Sonic Team introduced two entirely new characters to the modern dimension. That is the unique element that the classic dimension would lose if modern versions of Mighty and Ray were introduced.

No it wouldn’t. 

The fact that people are asking for Mighty and Ray in Modern games means that they value these characters entirely—they don’t care if they’re in both branches even if they might favor one or the other, and that exclusivity is not what makes them or the Classic branch unique regardless of whether or not they’re identical. If that were even remotely the case, people wouldn’t find the Classic games unique in the first place due to Modern Sonic having its cast and more. But that is not the value being given, and you know that.

All this claim of losing uniqueness is really just a wall being propped up between the two branches that others never wanted and would rather be torn down. If that is how you really see it, then it really looks like there’s something else under the surface, because at the end of the day people will still find something unique in them without that separation and in more ways than you think.

They’re not going to see the Classic branch as any less unique for sharing elements with the Modern branch—they can both make themselves unique on their own merits even as they share elements if not whole character and settings with each other. 

Again, if “uniqueness” isn’t a purely binary matter, then quit treating it like one between Classic and Modern. Because right now, you’re treating it precisely as a binary matter regarding the idea of Mighty and Ray in the Modern branch.

[Diogenes]

I don't even know what to say at this point. If we can't even agree that if I have Thing, and you have Thing, then having Thing is not unique to me, then we may as well not even be speaking the same language.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I don't even know what to say at this point. If we can't even agree that if I have Thing, and you have Thing, then having Thing is not unique to me, then we may as well not even be speaking the same language.

No, we’re speaking the same language.

You’re just just putting the value in something out of the other lacking it compared to you. I don’t work that way.

[Wraith]

50 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

To get the full package, gameplay, graphics, music, etc, it kinda did. Not necessarily a separate continuity (though that does help it operate independently and not have to worry about affecting the modern games), but that modern Sonic had grown into a separate thing stylistically and that there was an audience for the things that were specifically "classic" and not what modern was doing.

Fair enough. 

[Diogenes]

7 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

No, we’re speaking the same language.

You’re just just putting the value in something out of the other lacking it compared to you. I don’t work that way.

If you really don't think having something unique gives a series some amount of value then you should at least try to argue that, instead of trying to say that a series doesn't become less unique when other series gain the things that were unique to it.

[Multikaris]

I think it’s because the Heavies feel more akin to the general design and characterization ethos of the (Neo)Classic Game era, unlike the likes of Tikal who took those concepts and played them in a rather different light from the classics. (Though not to the extent Western comic adaptations took with these concepts). They seem a lot more crisp and carefree than the E-100s, Blaze, and the aforementioned Tikal, let alone stuff like Robians and the Brotherhood of Guardians.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

17 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If you really don't think having something unique gives a series some amount of value then you should at least try to argue that, instead of trying to say that a series doesn't become less unique when other series gain the things that were unique to it.

Problem with that first part is that’s not my argument.

Because, no, a series doesn’t become less unique when others gain things that were unique to it. It’s not that binary.

Sonic sharing aspects unique to Dragon Ball Z didn’t make DBZ less unique, now did it?

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Because, no, a series doesn’t become less unique when others gain things that were unique to it. It’s not that binary.

Sonic sharing aspects unique to Dragon Ball Z didn’t make DBZ less unique, now did it?

Yes, it does! That's what the word means!

If Game A is the only game that lets you ride a cyborg hippo, and then Game B comes out and also lets you ride a cyborg hippo, then Game A is now less unique because it is no longer the only game that lets you ride a cyborg hippo.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yes, it does! That's what the word means!

No, it doesn’t (and there’s more than one meaning to that word). But you’re more than welcome to believe that.