Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[E-122-Psi]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

And all of those are fair points, and I even agree to an extent. But I still think it's handled well for what it was, and it makes me appreciate the characters more than Lost World ever will. I mean, there's a reason people still talk highly of those games almost two decades after their initial release and it can't just be simple nostalgia, otherwise the games would have just been obscured to time. 

So yea, is the storytelling in older games a little bland? Sure. But it's solid for what it does and is executed decently enough. And I would much rather that than actively disliking these characters after finishing a game like I did with Lost World. 

Fair enough. I know depiction is subjective, and I have defended the games against other interpretations like Archie which similarly arguably have way more depth, but just leave me just as put off and antipathetic.

I've always been a quirks guy. I see more depth in stuff like Winnie the Pooh than dramatic epics because I enjoy character driven stuff and having all sort of silly vices and foibles venting out into the plot and bouncing off of each other. I guess I come to expect that from Sonic because it is at heart a cartoon, even if many will argue to what level. Even if the character has only one sort of quirk that spills and gives some distinct life into everything they do I consider them more of a success than one that has none.

[Kuzu]

Sonic isn't simply a cartoon though, it's an Action-Adventure series at its heart. Not really comparable to something like Winnie the Pooh.

Unless we're gonna say all cartoons are the same :V

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Sonic isn't simply a cartoon though, it's an Action-Adventure series at its heart. Not really comparable to something like Winnie the Pooh.

Unless we're gonna say all cartoons are the same :V

I do understand that, but still, Sonic was a character conceived to be appealing part by his bombastic personality, his 'attitude' and how he vented it in his gameplay expressions and what not. He had appeal from being a cartoon. Several characters like Knuckles and Vector were blatantly made to be similar. It's tragic how mechanical some of them have become through time, even when the writers try to give them characterisation.

I guess it's that I consider the quirk element the core that development builds itself on. If you don't have that core it's hard for the development to work or structure itself into something meaningful. I suppose this is where Pooh does make a good example since at face value he is a one gag character being 'nice but stupid' but many stories demonstrate depths like being philosophical, loyal and unflappably pure. At the same time however, none of them would really be as noteworthy without his simple minded core to make it colourful and give him unique interactions and behaviour to vent it all through.

The Deadly Six don't really have the extra depths I agree, they just have that one note 'core', but I think some characters like Tails often failed to a similar level because they tried to have development but didn't have a 'core' to work off of to make it meaningful. It also made Tails' development solitary in making his character work because he had zero chemistry with anyone else, you know it's bad when the least formal interaction he has between Sonic every game is 'Long time no see'.

[Rowl]

I'm not really sure about that. The action adventure image of Sonic started in my eyes with the Adventure series and then ended with Unleashed. And most of the games that happen between SA2 and Unleashed felt more like an other genre. Shadow the Hedgehog was more of a science-fiction drama and 06 felt more like a modern fantasy drama. Heroes was like the classic series a more a lighthearted cartoon adventure. all of them have a bit of action in it, but at their core some of them are either a simple, fun ride or an overly dramatic soup opera.

I personally wouldn't call the whole series a full action adventure genre. 

[Diogenes]

9 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Like I said, its wasn't handled well. What I'm trying to understand is how the Deadly Six are somehow better handled in this regard. If you like one over the other, fine. But strictly speaking in terms of quality of the writing, neither of them are particularly batting out of the park. If you're gonna cite "Sonic's personality is challenged", then why can't you count the characters that were affected by the whole Chaos incident? Including Tails, whom you seem to point out as being one of Lost World's stronger written characters. By this token shouldn't you count Tails character arc in Adventure as well?

For me it's not that the Deadly Six were more connected to the main characters or that they more directly challenge them, but more that Lost World had a clearer idea of what it wanted to focus on than SA did.

The climax of SA's story is focused on Chaos and Tikal. You get bits and pieces of their story through the other characters, and then only when you've finished all of their stories do you unlock the last story, where you put all those pieces together and actually address that whole situation. But despite this being the climax where all the characters come together to deal with this game-wide issue, none of them feel like they're really connected to it, beyond "there is a monster and we are heroes". So in spite of how interwoven the rest of the game's story is, the climax just sort of leaves the main characters hanging and doesn't meaningfully reflect on them or tie together their individual stories.

On the other hand, Lost World isn't about the Deadly Six. Like, at all. That's why they're such one-note characters, it's why their motivation is so simple and unsympathetic, it's why we don't get a whole bunch of backstory about them or the conch or Lost Hex. They exist to push the real story forward; they give consequence to Sonic's impatience, they force Eggman and the heroes into an uneasy alliance (which is what triggers Tails to act out), and they keep enough pressure on them for it all to boil over eventually. And I'm not going to say that it's especially well written, especially deep, or that it makes for a big epic conclusion like SA's, but it keeps the story focused on and about the main characters in a way that SA doesn't.

[Wraith]

I'd be interested in more stories that challenge Sonic as a character but also have a villain with some kind of emotional core. I think sacrificing one for the other when you have a lot of time in a game to cover different things is the wrong way to go about it.

No matter what Sonic plot you see potential in, I think we can all agree that all the loose ends and half developed characters are getting tiresome.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I do understand that, but still, Sonic was a character conceived to be appealing part by his bombastic personality, his 'attitude' and how he vented it in his gameplay expressions and what not. He had appeal from being a cartoon. Several characters like Knuckles and Vector were blatantly made to be similar. It's tragic how mechanical some of them have become through time, even when the writers try to give them characterisation.

I guess it's that I consider the quirk element the core that development builds itself on. If you don't have that core it's hard for the development to work or structure itself into something meaningful. I suppose this is where Pooh does make a good example since at face value he is a one gag character being 'nice but stupid' but many stories demonstrate depths like being philosophical, loyal and unflappably pure. At the same time however, none of them would really be as noteworthy without his simple minded core to make it colourful and give him unique interactions and behaviour to vent it all through.

The Deadly Six don't really have the extra depths I agree, they just have that one note 'core', but I think some characters like Tails often failed to a similar level because they tried to have development but didn't have a 'core' to work off of to make it meaningful. It also made Tails' development solitary in making his character work because he had zero chemistry with anyone else, you know it's bad when the least formal interaction he has between Sonic every game is 'Long time no see'.

That's a general issue the developers have had with Modern Sonic. All characters are just really one-note and unexpressive so yea, I get that. I feel like the alternate medias sidestep this issue cuz they're allowed to be way more expressive.

But I feel like the "core" they tried for Tails in Lost World and D6 is flawed.

2 hours ago, Diogenes said:

For me it's not that the Deadly Six were more connected to the main characters or that they more directly challenge them, but more that Lost World had a clearer idea of what it wanted to focus on than SA did.

The climax of SA's story is focused on Chaos and Tikal. You get bits and pieces of their story through the other characters, and then only when you've finished all of their stories do you unlock the last story, where you put all those pieces together and actually address that whole situation. But despite this being the climax where all the characters come together to deal with this game-wide issue, none of them feel like they're really connected to it, beyond "there is a monster and we are heroes". So in spite of how interwoven the rest of the game's story is, the climax just sort of leaves the main characters hanging and doesn't meaningfully reflect on them or tie together their individual stories.

On the other hand, Lost World isn't about the Deadly Six. Like, at all. That's why they're such one-note characters, it's why their motivation is so simple and unsympathetic, it's why we don't get a whole bunch of backstory about them or the conch or Lost Hex. They exist to push the real story forward; they give consequence to Sonic's impatience, they force Eggman and the heroes into an uneasy alliance (which is what triggers Tails to act out), and they keep enough pressure on them for it all to boil over eventually. And I'm not going to say that it's especially well written, especially deep, or that it makes for a big epic conclusion like SA's, but it keeps the story focused on and about the main characters in a way that SA doesn't.

This is fair, but then it comes down to what you prefer in the end. And sure, focusing on the main characters is important but if you sacrifice your main source of conflict, then it becomes difficult to invest in. In that case, the character writing needs to be great to make up for it.

But having bland main characters isn't really that interesting either I admit. 

[Wraith]

I should clarify: you can make the baddie less layered and more of a moustache twirling type if you think it'll serve the game better, but you gotta understand that that shit's hard to do well too. The Hardboiled Heavies are about as layered as the Six but people were charmed by them instead of immediately put off. Eggman isn't the most interesting character either but he's usually entertaining enough that it doesn't matter much.
 

[Your Vest Friend]

Eh, I lump them all into the same boat of bland to be honest. 

[Kuzu]

46 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Eh, I lump them all into the same boat of bland to be honest. 

What would you consider a good villain then?

[E-122-Psi]

As said it felt like something they were TRYING for, which is a good sign, but they were so unused to doing that that the direction was an unevolved mess. It's not just them though, the Sonic cast isn't exactly known for it's dimensions, even when writers half way try to give them it. There was a similar deal with Archie and some of the Freedom Fighters in it's late run for example, they were so used to not really giving a lot of them distinct foibles for a long time that when they finally got the point to do so they were kinda firing blindly, having no idea what could naturally stem from their usual personality. As Chuck Jones once described the situation in character writing, it's like watching a character "walking around with their umbilical in their hand, looking for some place to plug it in." 

Like I said before, it felt like Boom (which aired shortly after) kinda got the gist of what Lost Worlds' WANTED to do in terms of being more character driven and set it out more competently in many areas.

[DabigRG]

I kinda love how the Deadly Six invites one to consider how they could/could've been better and actually get a little serious with it.

 

To follow up on Kuzu's point about the flawed character writing, I feel like Lost World just exposed the flaws/shortcomings of Mr's Pontac, Graff, and whoever is in charge of directing/supervising the recent games' stories in full force once the easy fun and games that were Colors and Generations were over with. 

One of the duo's comments that they may have just ran out of time may add to that.

[Multikaris]

I don’t mind old zones coming back, as long as there aren’t too many, and especially if they get a Badnik roster and item overhaul. 

If GHZ comes back, I think it should use one of the other themes it has had over the years rather than the familiar, overused melody. Such as the Blast version, or even the Drift version. Heck, like in Sonic 4, two acts with entirely different songs would be a nice twist. I would not mind having some 1 or 3-Act zones in the game, but I feel having a full contingient of 3-Act Zones would be excessive. 

Modern Sonic should also show up in a Classic game at some point.

[DabigRG]

20 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

 Heck, like in Sonic 4, two acts with entirely different songs would be a nice twist. I would not mind having some 1 or 3-Act zones in the game, but I feel having a full contingient of 3-Act Zones would be excessive. 

Modern Sonic should also show up in a Classic game at some point.

He did. You just named it. 

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I kinda love how the Deadly Six invites one to consider how they could/could've been better and actually get a little serious with it.

 

To follow up on Kuzu's point about the flawed character writing, I feel like Lost World just exposed the flaws/shortcomings of Mr's Pontac, Graff, and whoever is in charge of directing/supervising the recent games' stories in full force once the easy fun and games that were Colors and Generations were over with. 

One of the duo's comments that they may have just ran out of time may add to that.

It was indeed something VERY rough, but, I dunno, so many previous writers just left me apathetic. At the very least I hoped it might leave an opening for a more competent writer to step in and expand on it in a later title (again I suppose Boom sort of did that).

Adding onto this, while the games cast have pretty limited 'core' personalities, I don't think many of those cores are a bad start off point. For example for all people complain about how one-note Amy is, it bugs me how nearly every attempt to flesh her out involves actually taking out that one note she had (with Boom probably being the only case where they put something else in it's place), actually making her even less compelling. Even with all it's flanderization, I can at least appreciate Heroes for trying to make Amy more competent and capable of taking leader role while still making her standard bubbly effeminate personality integral to that. 

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

At the very least I hoped it might leave an opening for a more competent writer to step in and expand on it in a later title (again I suppose Boom sort of did that).

18 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Adding onto this, while the games cast have pretty limited 'core' personalities, I don't think many of those cores are a bad start off point. 

That's more or less my hope/thought as well.

29 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Even with all it's flanderization, I can at least appreciate Heroes for trying to make Amy more competent and capable of taking leader role while still making her standard bubbly effeminate personality integral to that. 

Heroes is another game where I feel like some of the character motivations and dynamics were trying to get out but were undeveloped, particularly where Team Rose is concerned.

[E-122-Psi]

The Sonic franchise kinda feels like watching one of those shows that's still at it's starting points and most of the characters don't act quite right because the writers haven't fully 'clicked' what they're gonna do with them.

It's bad when even some of the actual Sonic shows suffer from this and never quite have their characters leave 'base' format (again you can see the potential in many characters in stuff like SatAm and X, especially early on, but unlike even many other simpler cartoons, they never really utilise it to it's full potential, and if anything most of them just slowly get blander).

[DabigRG]

9 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The Sonic franchise kinda feels like watching one of those shows that's still at it's starting points and most of the characters don't act quite right because the writers haven't fully 'clicked' what they're gonna do with them.

It's bad when even some of the actual Sonic shows suffer from this and never quite have their characters leave 'base' format (again you can see the potential in many characters in stuff like SatAm and X, especially early on, but unlike even many other simpler cartoons, they never really utilise it to it's full potential, and if anything most of them just slowly get blander).

Which is actually kinda fine in characters like Marine and the Deadly Six's case, but Tails and depending on context Amy definitely shouldn't be that way.

[Multikaris]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

He did. You just named it. 

That doesn’t count. If it did, Pocket Adventure, Advance 1... any 2D modern game up to a certain point qualifies. Also, I meant alongside Classic.

[Red Hot Jack]

I think Lost World is a good game... Fight me, but I think I enjoyed it more than Forces and even Colors. In fact I think I'm gonna start playing it again.

I believe fans disliked it because it's different, it's not necessarily good as a Sonic game but, as a game in general? Sure. It may be more similar too a Mario game, but whatever, it's still plenty of fun to me, it's not even that slow, even though you have to press that stupid button to run. What I liked:

+ It has more 3D and open paths, multiple routes to explore, than most modern games, in fact it has fully 3D stages unlike any recent game.

+ It tries to do something new instead of relying on boost, it provided a fresh gameplay, with the return of the spin dash, the parkour (although underused), the kick.

+ There is more variety of enemies and some focus on combat, with the kick you can do different moves and ways to attack the badniks.

+ The story is mediocre, I agree, but it still has more going on than in Generations, which was one giant unexplained plothole, and Colors which was just pointless jokes and conversations between few characters.

+ The Deadly Six are a fun idea, even though I dislike them aside from Zavok, it was refreshing to see a group of villains who respect each other, and they still had more personality than the generic monsters like Iblis, Dark Gaia and even Mephiles the recolor.

+ More variety in boss fights, the Deadly Six actually have a fun ability which lets them control machines and do crazy things with them. They are too easy because of the chargeable homing attack skill but still fun IMO. Better than chase fights for sure.

+ 2D is perhaps boring but still better than Forces' linearity and Colors blocky platforming which I didn't like.

+ Wisps: they weren't mandatory or everywhere, they were used for different paths and to find red rings. I don't get the complaint "they are pointless, the story doesn't explain their presence" it's just a lazy way of saying people dislike them.

+ The soundtrack is actually nice to hear, decent even though less memorable than Colors and Unleashed.

+ Knuckles and Amy are at least present, unlike Colors Wii. But yeah, they are barely cameos.

+ It's extremely polished. Runs smooth and the animations are really fluid.

+ Plenty of extra stuff between circus minigames, Super Sonic, Hidden World, free DLC stages like NiGHTS, Yoshi's Island and the Legend of Zelda.

So yeah, I like the game, there is little bad to talk about it from my perspective. One thing I really dislike is the art style though, it's way too simple for my tastes, and the story is barely acceptable, weird characterization of Tails but Eggman really shines there.

 

 

 

[Kazhnuz]

I agree with that one. Sonic Lost World may have its share of problems, but it was one of the most promising game for the future, in term of gameplay at least.

Even if I like boost-gameplay, I really liked how Lost World had more things inside. It was full of idea (I loved that Tornado bonus stage) and what I loved the most is that the game was able to have an interesting diversity of stages. Some were classic 2D, some had autoscroll 2D, some were linear 3D, some were "mach-speed", some had 3D with some exploration, some had 3D focused on plateforming, we got a tornado level… And they didn't need to add a completely-different gameplay from Sonic's to have this diversity (like the Werehog, etc). Compared to the boost-gameplay levels, the game really felt like a game that make us do diverse things, and I liked that. And I also liked how most of the 3D levels were really 3D levels ! I'm not against having 2D levels in a 3D Sonic game, but I really prefer the stronger separation that Lost World have. Some small touch like how we can see Sonic even when something block the view are great.

It was full of potential, that could have been exploited in future game (for instance I think it would have been the best fundation for a return to side-character, as the parkour+spindash make easier to give side-character other powers in similar levels than the boost does. Not to mention that they could really make other character build from the same fundation, and make them have different capacities that Sonic à la Classic/Advance). I get the feeling that they really tried something with it, and it's sad that it seems to be going to waste.

I would really have loved if they had tried the task to make some kind of simpler, kinda "Chaos/Advance/Rush-level" games based on the Lost World bases, with just some better writing (even Rush-level would be enough for that) and some alternate characters. I think it's a game that would have worked well enough for their budget, and that could be some kind of simpler nice games. And just having some kind of game that return to Lost World ideas, but with a better writer and a less simple art-style would be great for me (and that have playable character that are not Sonic… the only other thing that I would add would be a SA/SA2-like mission system, where you can replay the level with an alternate goal).

 

I really feel that there have been a great potential that was wasted by simply returning to boost gameplay.

[DabigRG]

I think a major part of the problem with Lost World was the fact that it came relatively fresh off the heels of Generations, which was generally agreed to be a great anniversary game and proof that Sonic had a winning formula again. And unfortunately, it seems a lot of recent negativity towards a lot of things with this series lately(characterization, storytelling, nostalgia seemingly in general, etc.) was heavily generated in part because of that game and the fact that most of the games that came after it were deemed to be mediocre at best.

I mentioned this in a thread regarding the next big Sonic game, but after Forces, it feels like SonicTeam can't do anything now and have it be accepted.

[Gotta Go Rational]

These aren’t so much opinions on the quality of something or what I enjoy/don’t enjoy etc, more about disagreeing with a couple of assumptions that I’ve read floating around the internets over the years.

I don’t believe that Sonic Unleashed's Savannah Citadel daytime music is intended to be a re-arrangement of Sonic 1’s Master System/Game Gear credits theme. I do hear the similarities, but to me the tune is not similar enough and too obscure (the credits theme of a lesser known adaptation of Sonic 1, is remixed in a game with completely new music composed for every other stage? Doesn’t seem to fit) to seem like it was an intentional reference to that piece. Also, if a Sonic game does feature an intended reprise of a previous tune, the original game and composer is often cited in the official soundtrack release of the game. (It would for example, say something like “original music taken from ‘Sonic Heroes’, music by Fumie Kumatani, etc..) That last point isn’t watertight admittedly, as there is no citing of Sonic 3 for Generations’ Classic City Escape/Endless Mine remix (Sonic Adventure 2/Jun Senoue is the only game/composer cited as to piece it was based on), but Savannah Citadel’s day theme simply credits Tomoya Ohtani as the composer with no acknowledgement of Yuzo Koshiro, who composed the MS/GG version of Sonic 1.

Speaking of Sonic Unleashed, and I’m not sure how widely believed this one is nowadays…there is no official reference to the final stage being called Crimson Carnival. It’s Eggmanland, both the hub world and the stage itself. I do dig the name Crimson Carnival though, the fan who came up with it obviously did so to fit in with Unleashed’s frequent use of alliteration (Rooftop Run, Skyscraper Scamper, Jungle Joyride etc.), but there was a point after the release of the game where a lot of us seemed to believe that was the stage’s official name. Even some youtube uploads of the game and its soundtrack still refer to it as such to this day.

[Harkofthewaa]

As far as pure gameplay goes, I think that the 8-Bit version of Sonic Spinball is the worst Sonic game ever made. You have games like Sonic 06 and Labyrinth, but those are at least playable, while Spinball's controls and physics are fundamentally broken. Doing a spindash can send you flying off at 1000 miles an hour, and actually trying to control Sonic when he's flying through the air is a joke. In addition, the graphics are very bland and the level design sucks, although the music is good (par for the course for Sonic). It's one of those things where you have to see it to believe it, but I wouldn't recommend playing this trash heap for more than a few minutes (that's really all you need in order to see the broken mess that it is. Obviously it had no impact on the series proper which is why no one talks about it, but someone has too.

[Multikaris]

17 minutes ago, Harkofthewaa said:

As far as pure gameplay goes, I think that the 8-Bit version of Sonic Spinball is the worst Sonic game ever made. You have games like Sonic 06 and Labyrinth, but those are at least playable, while Spinball's controls and physics are fundamentally broken. Doing a spindash can send you flying off at 1000 miles an hour, and actually trying to control Sonic when he's flying through the air is a joke. In addition, the graphics are very bland and the level design sucks, although the music is good (par for the course for Sonic). It's one of those things where you have to see it to believe it, but I wouldn't recommend playing this trash heap for more than a few minutes (that's really all you need in order to see the broken mess that it is. Obviously it had no impact on the series proper which is why no one talks about it, but someone has too.

Agreed. Played two minutes on Gems collection and nothing made any sense or made me feel remotely good about it. Though Schoolhouse and Jam for Game.Com are up there, along with Rise of Lyric. Those games don’t even have a good soundtrack! Especially not the game.com version of Jam.