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*Both Tails and Amy would never doubt to get out there to go save/rescue Sonic when he is in trouble, even to the point of risking their very own lives and that will always speak highly of them.

However, when the character that Sonic sometimes ignores is the one that is willing to sacrifice her own happiness (wether it's in 06 letting Elise kiss Sonic back to life, or ugh, issue #222 of the old Archie comic) it really puts into perspective who really was Sonic's best and most loyal friend all along.

Sorry Tails, but there is no way to top that kind of sacrifice.

 

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17 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Not so much about the games but I think the fandom gets too angry about things. It seems like some folks loose their minds if a new game or comic or anything comes short of being the next most revolutionary Sonic game.

I couldn't agree with you more. X_X

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Looking back, I don't really think any of the SatAm/Archie writers really had 'Sally favouritism' besides the writers for SatAm's second season (and even then partially due to their own admission). If anything sometimes I feel like the comics preferred working with the games cast or their own characters over the SatAm ones, but the dynamic inherited from the show insisted they stick with what the established fans wanted and awkwardly work around it. In fact it almost feels like a lot of issues from Sally stem from the fact that she wasn't really managed to be a main character (a straight man is a fine enough character in a supporting role, but as a main character they tend to feel too flawless and bland, hence the 'OMG MARY SUE' complaints). I almost feel like Ian's team would have been fine just keeping her in the occasional role but by then internet complaints were widespread and they felt obligated to fix everything fans bemoaned about her and get back the old dynamic in the forefront like everyone wanted.

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Knuckles is not, and never has been a serious foil to Sonic. He's definitely a foil, don't get me wrong. But he's not the Piccolo esc character that everyone just kind of assumes he is cuz...reasons I guess.

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Admittedly though, it would be fun if he was though? And kind of almost is but with the mentality of a grumpy loner teenager in the current day Sonic comics? 

He's a lot of fun to play with and they don't do enough with him because as being the guardian of the series' famous McGuffins, you'd think they'd do more with him, but... they don't. It's awkward. 

On 2/5/2019 at 12:37 AM, Skull Leader said:

*Both Tails and Amy would never doubt to get out there to go save/rescue Sonic when he is in trouble, even to the point of risking their very own lives and that will always speak highly of them.

However, when the character that Sonic sometimes ignores is the one that is willing to sacrifice her own happiness (wether it's in 06 letting Elise kiss Sonic back to life, or ugh, issue #222 of the old Archie comic) it really puts into perspective who really was Sonic's best and most loyal friend all along.

Sorry Tails, but there is no way to top that kind of sacrifice.

 

I like this take. However, we're going to take a moment for both of their history with Sonic to shine. 

They've both been fanatics ever since they first met Sonic and while that childlike wonder would have gone away, Sonic proved that he's a good person who stands up for what he believes in. His conviction is nothing short of inspiring to them so these kids become more when they grow up. They grow to be more codependent or independent of Sonic and live their lives with the kind of philosophy Sonic holds. Amy wants to do right and aide in the fight against Eggman, Tails wants to believe in themself and go out there and do things so his brother will be happy for him. 

Amy wanted to be a lover and arguably is but non mutually, and regardless of how much she's tested through robots trying to kidnap her, having Dr. Robotnik threaten to kill her for his personal gain, and being supportive of everyone, she's learned a lot about how to be a leader. Tails is Sonic's brother and is always wanting to be treated as the adult he actually is and do things that will make his brother proud even if Sonic were to die. Sonic's Sacrifice in Sonic Adventure 2 was built up to quite a bit in Sonic Adventure 2 and when it hits, it hits everyone in the moment. Amy is a best friend, yes, but Tails is Sonic's brother. This is going to be hard for him to think of Sonic as being gone. Sonic Forces almost had something good to play with before wasting that. They should have played with his code of morals and convictions more because he does very much have a sense of rules amid all the chaos. But that would take better writing than they're capable of? 

... and to continue, these characters were built up but as we all kind of agree, the writing in the games are a huge mess. And the characters have been inconsistent for a decade now in the Sonic Team games. It's a real bother to me. It's why even though I've seen the cutscenes and know all of these stories, the game stories are hard to follow but the comics have always been this nice place to read actual stories with them all. And yeah, that makes a good amount of difference for the characters and their personalities. When even the Sonic Boom version feels more fleshed out than current day Modern Sonic, there's a problem

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54 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Looking back, I don't really think any of the SatAm/Archie writers really had 'Sally favouritism' besides the writers for SatAm's second season (and even then partially due to their own admission). If anything sometimes I feel like the comics preferred working with the games cast or their own characters over the SatAm ones, but the dynamic inherited from the show insisted they stick with what the established fans wanted and awkwardly work around it. In fact it almost feels like a lot of issues from Sally stem from the fact that she wasn't really managed to be a main character (a straight man is a fine enough character in a supporting role, but as a main character they tend to feel too flawless and bland, hence the 'OMG MARY SUE' complaints). I almost feel like Ian's team would have been fine just keeping her in the occasional role but by then internet complaints were widespread and they felt obligated to fix everything fans bemoaned about her and get back the old dynamic in the forefront like everyone wanted.

Pretty much my take on it overall.

Though the reboot just straight up removed much of what was hanging up her character in favor of making her a freer, more visibly dynamic character, which I sorta liked.

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21 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much my take on it overall.

Though the reboot just straight up removed much of what was hanging up her character in favor of making her a freer, more visibly dynamic character, which I sorta liked.

My general problem with that is that most of their attempts to change up Sally just involved giving her weaker elements of Sonic's impulses. Hell nearly ALL of the times the comics tried to make Sally flawed involved just ignoring her usual cautious characterisation and making her reckless. The fact they NEVER called out the hypocrisy of this and her treatment of Sonic only further gives me the feeling it wasn't really intended as long term personality and foil potential, it was just a quota to say 'There, Sally makes mistakes so isn't perfect, moving on'. That plus the blades, which always felt like a really generic combat weapon that didn't suit Sally, just made her feel more interchangeable to me in the reboot. It furthers my belief Ian wasn't THAT attached to her, otherwise he'd have probably taken a more gingerly approach to 'fixing' her that still complemented most of her old characterisation.

I always found it a shame they never utilised her opposing chemistry with Sonic to give her a flawed side, like someone who went completely with a strategic and methodical approach but was just too convoluted and overbearing to make it any safer a bet than Sonic's impulsive risk taking one (premeditated strategies can still go horribly wrong, especially if Sally couldn't improvise as well as Sonic). Basically the two sides would even each other out over the one being the most apparently abrasive at face value always being in the wrong, meaning Sally could be fallible without needing to completely break character.

Hell I think that the previous few years have only started toying with the idea of complex 'smart' characters in the Sonic franchise (besides Eggman of course), that you can be intellectual in one element but that doesn't mean you're perfectly functional and competent in another. They've realised that Tails can be smart AND still be childish, rather than being the most rational, mature and almost godly minded hero of the lot in all fields just because he's 'smart'.

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2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

My general problem with that is that most of their attempts to change up Sally just involved giving her weaker elements of Sonic's impulses. Hell nearly ALL of the times the comics tried to make Sally flawed involved just ignoring her usual cautious characterisation and making her reckless.

I think that was meant to be an odd way of referencing how she and Sonic weren't all that different in temperament originally.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

The fact they NEVER called out the hypocrisy of this and her treatment of Sonic only further gives me the feeling it wasn't really intended as long term personality and foil potential, it was just a quota to say 'There, Sally makes mistakes so isn't perfect, moving on'. 

Wasn't there a moment like that with Nicole(though I don't think Sonic himself was mentioned)?

But yeah, it did sorta feel like that at times.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 That plus the blades, which always felt like a really generic combat weapon that didn't suit Sally, just made her feel more interchangeable to me in the reboot. It furthers my belief Ian wasn't THAT attached to her, otherwise he'd have probably taken a more gingerly approach to 'fixing' her that still complemented most of her old characterisation.

Really now? Why so?

I know it was basically a holdover from Mecha Sally and sorta gave her a small "hi-tech" answer to Amy's big "toy" hammer.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

I always found it a shame they never utilised her opposing chemistry with Sonic to give her a flawed side, like someone who went completely with a strategic and methodical approach but was just too convoluted and overbearing to make it any safer a bet than Sonic's impulsive risk taking one (premeditated strategies can still go horribly wrong, especially if Sally couldn't improvise as well as Sonic). Basically the two sides would even each other out over the one being the most apparently abrasive at face value always being in the wrong, meaning Sally could be fallible without needing to completely break character.

Huh. I suppose that would be , heh, logical a way of going about it.

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Hell I think that the previous few years have only started toying with the idea of complex 'smart' characters in the Sonic franchise (besides Eggman of course), that you can be intellectual in one element but that doesn't mean you're perfectly functional and competent in another. They've realised that Tails can be smart AND still be childish, rather than being the most rational, mature and almost godly minded hero of the lot in all fields just because he's 'smart'.

You think so?

I mean, Tails is the one to look to in that regard, but still.

Are there even that many smart characters to begin with, for example?

 

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17 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I think that was meant to be an odd way of referencing how she and Sonic weren't all that different in temperament originally.

Well that isn't a bad thing, it works with a 'so different yet so similar' chemistry (I liked how she also had moments of Sonic's hubris in early SatAm as well), but as said that didn't have any effects on their dynamic since it's never pointed out. Also making her only flawed in the 'so similar' aspect also implies she can only be flawed when she has moments of weakness and acts like Sonic, her differences from Sonic like being more methodical and cautious are near constantly depicted in the right (except for that one infamous case...).

17 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Wasn't there a moment like that with Nicole(though I don't think Sonic himself was mentioned)?

But yeah, it did sorta feel like that at times.

That's the problem, it wasn't towards Sonic and it was actually IN Sally's favour than against it, thus it was handwaving a flawed moment from her rather than developing on it. An instance her self righteousness was called out and she realised it was much easier to preach than practice could have made a fitting scenario for her characteristics. The fact NICOLE got it in a much shorter time span implies they had more investment in making her personality fallible than Sally.

I remember the Monkey Khan arc had a similar thing, her soothing Khan's temper and then completely losing it herself against Fiona, with Khan failing to play a proper foil to this.

17 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I know it was basically a holdover from Mecha Sally and sorta gave her a small "hi-tech" answer to Amy's big "toy" hammer.

Yeah, I can get that, but it doesn't change that close combat to me just doesn't fit Sally. I see her as a sniper before anything.

17 hours ago, DabigRG said:

IHuh. I suppose that would be , heh, logical a way of going about it.

I'll admit that probably my ideal rendition of Sally would be just to rip Twilight Sparkle's personality from MLP and put it into her. :P

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16 hours ago, DabigRG said:

You think so?

I mean, Tails is the one to look to in that regard, but still.

Are there even that many smart characters to begin with, for example?

 

Well, there's Rouge, and Rotor, and Orbot...

Orbot is perhaps the only one out of those that feels like he has some sort of personality that all fits together properly.

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1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well that isn't a bad thing, it works with a 'so different yet so similar' chemistry (I liked how she also had moments of Sonic's hubris in early SatAm as well), but as said that didn't have any effects on their dynamic since it's never pointed out. Also making her only flawed in the 'so similar' aspect also implies she can only be flawed when she has moments of weakness and acts like Sonic, her differences from Sonic like being more methodical and cautious are near constantly depicted in the right (except for that one infamous case...).

 

That's fair.

What, the slap or the trap?

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

That's the problem, it wasn't towards Sonic and it was actually IN Sally's favour than against it. An instance her self righteousness was called out and she realised it was much easier to preach than practice could have made a fitting scenario for her characteristics.

The fact NICOLE got it in a much shorter time span implies they had more investment in making her personality fallible than Sally.

Hm.

...Say what now?

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Yeah, I can get that, but it doesn't change that close combat to me just doesn't fit Sally. I see her as a sniper before anything.

Okay, that's very true. Come to think of it, did any freedom fighter use projectile attacks?

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

I'll admit that probably my ideal rendition of Sally would be just to rip Twilight Sparkle's personality from MLP and put it into her. :P

Oh, dude, that's all I could here whenever I read New252!Sally.

59 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well, there's Rouge, and Rotor, and Orbot...

Orbot is perhaps the only one out of those that feels like he has some sort of personality that all fits together properly.

One may also argue Dr. Nega and maybe Zavok & Zik, now that I think about it. And Cubot would arguably be the reverse.

What do you mean by that?

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1 minute ago, DabigRG said:

That's fair.

What, the slap or the trap?

The slap. Sally saw Sonic get hurt and in a neurotic panic, plotted out this rather concise approach to keep him out of harm's way which blatantly sounded a LOT more lucid on paper, and when informed this she couldn't handle it.

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Speedy reply.

Just now, E-122-Psi said:

The slap. Sally saw Sonic get hurt and in a neurotic panic, plotted out this rather concise approach to keep him out of harm's way which blatantly sounded a LOT more lucid on paper, and when informed this she couldn't handle it.

Aw yes. We were mainly talking about the Reboot version, so I had to ask to be sure.

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13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Hm.

...Say what now?

What I mean is that Sally calls out Sonic for being reckless, and then has multiple times she herself is reckless. No one EVER calls out the hypocrisy of this nor does it ever lead to a realisation that jabbing Sonic over it is a lot easier than sticking to a safer approach herself. The first time NICOLE does the same thing however, she INSTANTLY calls her out on it, which feels like it gives a greater psychology and humanity into NICOLE being protective towards her. Sally meanwhile is just the designated straight man with the odd token moment of weakness, her flawed moments feel like something more phoned in so the fans won't moan about her being too perfect, not to flesh her out that distinctively. Her chemistry with Sonic if anything just got weaker.

13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Okay, that's very true. Come to think of it, did any freedom fighter use projectile attacks?

Nah, because....Guns are bad, M'kay. :P

13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Oh, dude, that's all I could here whenever I read New252!Sally.

Except without the funny neuroses, the consistent preference in meticulous methods, much sense of quirks or being called out frequently by her friends and treated as an inherently flawed character.....

13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

One may also argue Dr. Nega and maybe Zavok & Zik, now that I think about it. And Cubot would arguably be the reverse.

What do you mean by that?

Ah, fair enough, those too. Granted villains tend to be easier to handle in that regard, especially goofy villains that are set up to fail through their own foolishness. They're smart but there's always quirks that mean they haven't thought everything through.

Heroes are meant to be taken more earnestly, and whats more they have to usually win by the end of each story, so there's less room for flaw-induced failures.

Well for Rouge she seems like an awkward mish mash of mutually exclusive roles and morals, while Rotor struggles to have a personality even more than Sally.

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12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

What I mean is that Sally calls out Sonic for being reckless, and then has multiple times she herself is reckless. No one EVER calls out the hypocrisy of this nor does it ever lead to a realisation that jabbing Sonic over it is a lot easier than sticking to a safer approach herself. The first time NICOLE does the same thing however, she INSTANTLY calls her out on it, which feels like it gives a greater psychology and humanity into NICOLE being protective towards her. Sally meanwhile is just the designated straight man with the odd token moment of weakness, her flawed moments feel like something more phoned in so the fans won't moan about her being too perfect, not to flesh her out that distinctively. Her chemistry with Sonic if anything just got weaker.

 

I was about to say, were she and Sonic really all that at odds in the reboot?

13 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Nah, because....Guns are bad, M'kay. :P

Well, you say that, but Nack was literally about to snipe Sonic and/or Knuckles during the Championship.

Also, Julie-Su shooting Finitevus in the arm preboot.

13 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Except without the funny neuroses, the consistent preference in meticulous methods, much sense of quirks or being called out frequently by her friends and treated as an inherently flawed character.....

 

Yeah, whatever you said.

Say, here's an opportunity: define the differences between quirks, flaws, and that other woid you like to use, per your view.

13 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Ah, fair enough, those too. Granted villains tend to be easier to handle in that regard, especially goofy villains that are set up to fail through their own foolishness. They're smart but there's always quirks that mean they haven't thought everything through.

Heroes are meant to be taken more earnestly, and whats more they have to usually win by the end of each story, so there's less room for flaw-induced failures.

 

That's the trend, yep. It's easier for many to make villains feel faceted, intelligent, or just enjoyable.

 

13 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Well for Rouge she seems like an awkward mish mash of mutually exclusive roles and morals, while Rotor struggles to have a personality even more than Sally.

I suppose.

With Rotor, it was initially just a matter of different writers portraying him differently based on different contexts(gung-ho in early Archie, doofy in the Satam pilot, glum-ish in Satam Season 1, slightly more expressive in Sataam Season 2, etc) and then you eventually had to acknowledge Sally and Tails as being smart characters as well.

The reboot basically just brought him back to how he was initially portrayed in the comics and tried to expand on it.

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On 2/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, DabigRG said:

I was about to say, were she and Sonic really all that at odds in the reboot?

I don't think so. I think that's the issue with 'fixed Sally. Similar to most cases 'fixed Amy' they don't really develop her in regards to broadening her as a character or a foil but more just bland her to be harmlessly pleasant and lucid.

On 2/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, DabigRG said:

Well, you say that, but Nack was literally about to snipe Sonic and/or Knuckles during the Championship.

Also, Julie-Su shooting Finitevus in the arm preboot.

Well the Nack thing was definitely treated as bad, M'Kay.

On 2/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, DabigRG said:

Yeah, whatever you said.

Say, here's an opportunity: define the differences between quirks, flaws, and that other woid you like to use, per your view.

I'm guessing the other woid (where'd you suddenly get a Brooklyn accent from? XD) is foible, since I use that one a lot too.

I guess I mean a flaw that plays a lot into the character's agency, not just being their defining weaknesses but also playing a lot into how they vent a character in both positive and negative and how they interact as foils for the other cast members. Sonic is cocksure for example, so he is confident to a fault and as a result also very playful, extroverted and optimistic in standard behaviour. There's those moments his hubris gets him specifically into trouble but there's other times it's a strength, but there are at least those times he understands it's a shortcoming he has to keep in check (until the next story anyway, but that's another problem).

For Sally and the other Freedom Fighters, I often struggle to grasp that much of a defining element to them, at least outside their earlier days. Sally being cautious and meticulous was at least played as making her a bit neurotic and high strung in SatAm, but unlike Sonic there was rarely any moments that behaviour backfired hard on her, it didn't give her much agency besides being Sonic's straight man. I think the fact her core is kind of based around her being a control freak in spite of the writers trying to whitewash it plays into fan's perceiving her as unsympathetic. It's not really something you can pretend doesn't exist and not give at least occasional reprimand over.

On 2/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, DabigRG said:

I suppose.

With Rotor, it was initially just a matter of different writers portraying him differently based on different contexts(gung-ho in early Archie, doofy in the Satam pilot, glum-ish in Satam Season 1, slightly more expressive in Sataam Season 2, etc) and then you eventually had to acknowledge Sally and Tails as being smart characters as well.

The reboot basically just brought him back to how he was initially portrayed in the comics and tried to expand on it.

Perhaps. Maybe it's just because I watched the show more so was kinda used to a more geeky and awkward Rotor. I suppose Tails fits that more now, though from what I remember Archie didn't do that much with that aspect of him either. Actually Archie weren't exactly great with introverted characters, they were usually straight men unless something coerced them into acting more like a hot blooded bone head characters. It really had that whole 'quiet and sensible' vs 'brash and error prone' hierarchy, while even stuff like Boom sort of understands the extra dimensions and that either can be positive or negative.

The fact Rotor kept constantly changing his personality (or whether he even had one) only furthers the notion the writers didn't have a passion for him. One of Satam's writers even admitted to be antipathetic about him.

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On 2/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, DabigRG said:

That's the trend, yep. It's easier for many to make villains feel faceted, intelligent, or just enjoyable.

I guess it's harder to judge for Archie since it's not as character driven in how it handles its heroes. A lot of their personal dilemmas are from external forces, bad guys shattering families and livelihoods and what not rather than say, foibles and parables storylines like in a lot of Boom.

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4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I don't think so. I think that's the issue with 'fixed Sally. Similar to most cases 'fixed Amy' they don't really develop her in regards to broadening her as a character or a foil but more just bland her to be harmlessly pleasant and lucid.

I suppose that's accurate?

And then she also had the disadvantage of not only people with previous grudges against her, but the fact that not being a [full out] game character means there wasn't as much enjoyment to be had in just seeing her portrayed positively.

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Well the Nack thing was definitely treated as bad, M'Kay.

 

I know. 👅

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

I'm guessing the other woid (where'd you suddenly get a Brooklyn accent from? XD) is foible, since I use that one a lot too.

Yeah, that's the one.

And a typo that I just decided to keep for effect.

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

I guess I mean a flaw that plays a lot into the character's agency, not just being their defining weaknesses but also playing a lot into how they vent a character in both positive and negative and how they interact as foils for the other cast members. Sonic is cocksure for example, so he is confident to a fault and as a result also very playful, extroverted and optimistic in standard behaviour. There's those moments his hubris gets him specifically into trouble but there's other times it's a strength, but there are at least those times he understands it's a shortcoming he has to keep in check (until the next story anyway, but that's another problem).

 

Not really what I asked, but okay. Reminders can be neat.

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

For Sally and the other Freedom Fighters, I often struggle to grasp that much of a defining element to them, at least outside their earlier days. Sally being cautious and meticulous was at least played as making her a bit neurotic and high strung in SatAm, but unlike Sonic there was rarely any moments that behaviour backfired hard on her, it didn't give her much agency besides being Sonic's straight man. I think the fact her core is kind of based around her being a control freak in spite of the writers trying to whitewash it plays into fan's perceiving her as unsympathetic. It's not really something you can pretend doesn't exist and not give at least occasional reprimand over.

 

The straight man thing was something that seemed to develop as the show went, from what I recall; essentially make her just as much as representation of the 90s as Sonic is, for better or worse. Which, in her case, meant usually being in the right/"right".

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

Perhaps. Maybe it's just because I watched the show more so was kinda used to a more geeky and awkward Rotor. I suppose Tails fits that more now, though from what I remember Archie didn't do that much with that aspect of him either. Actually Archie weren't exactly great with introverted characters, they were usually straight men unless something coerced them into acting more like a hot blooded bone head characters. It really had that whole 'quiet and sensible' vs 'brash and error prone' hierarchy, while even stuff like Boom sort of understands the extra dimensions and that either can be positive or negative.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

Tails being the somewhat eager kid was his shtick at the time, at least in the comics. I actually don't remember much of him in the show outside of the more notable scenes and the pilot, where he was flying into trees out of frustration.

 

More introverted characters just seem sorta difficult for writers to write and/or some audiences to get into, it seems. 

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

The fact Rotor kept constantly changing his personality (or whether he even had one) only furthers the notion the writers didn't have a passion for him. One of Satam's writers even admitted to be antipathetic about him.

Yeah, I heard about that.

I know Tvtropes at one point suggested his Season 1 characterization was supposed to be another foil for Sonic at one point, interestingly. 

 

But anyway, poor Rotor was just kinda predisposed to often being overlooked due to his design and place in the series as it went on. At the very least, it meant the writers usually did have to get a little unorthodox when they did wanna do stuff with him. 

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I guess it's harder to judge for Archie since it's not as character driven in how it handles its heroes. A lot of their personal dilemmas are from external forces, bad guys shattering families and livelihoods and what not rather than say, foibles and parables storylines like in a lot of Boom.

Very true. Expansive lore became that comic's bread and butter, even if the sheer weirdness of the continuity was very much it's precedence.

 

But hey, at least that's accurate to the source material.

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On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:37 AM, Skull Leader said:

*Both Tails and Amy would never doubt to get out there to go save/rescue Sonic when he is in trouble, even to the point of risking their very own lives and that will always speak highly of them.

However, when the character that Sonic sometimes ignores is the one that is willing to sacrifice her own happiness (wether it's in 06 letting Elise kiss Sonic back to life, or ugh, issue #222 of the old Archie comic) it really puts into perspective who really was Sonic's best and most loyal friend all along.

Sorry Tails, but there is no way to top that kind of sacrifice.

 

My fan fiction is once again relevant (I know you didn't read it, just saying). It's in italian so sadly I can't share it with you  guys directly.

It starts a bit like Forces, Sonic is presumed dead after the final fight with Eggman and just vanished, Tails has given up hope and Amy is the one who can't stop believing in Sonic and she actually thinks he's alive, so when a fairy spirit comes from another dimension to tell her he's alive, she embarks on this quest to find him, while Tails stands up to Eggman and gets to be the hero of the planet. Plus the spirit grants Amy's hammer magical powers, so… I already said this, but it was the concept for an Amy Rose game, in which the magical hammer would interact with the environment to solve puzzles. I can't make a game but I can write a fan fiction.

So this turned out to be an 8 chapters story focusing on all the main girls in the Sonic series, even though Flynn says that each of them has limitations:

Amy is limited by her crush on Sonic, and she's just seen as a love interest.

Blaze has her own things in another dimension

Rouge is sexualized and a bit of a anti-hero

Cream is a pacifist so she doesn't want to fight

Sticks is non-relevant due to being a spin-off character

Well, so I decided to embrace most of those things and turn them into a focus and positive aspects for them, Cream and Sticks (from the main universe) join Amy to help her, and Blaze tags along because the Jelewed Scepter has been stolen. So this is my interpretation of the girls and their point of "focus":

Amy -  she's strong, she's a force of nature and you don't want to be in her way, she's also social and full of energy, loyal to her friends, and the love for Sonic can actually turn into a mission, and she never stops believing in what's positive. The downside (her flaw) is that she is overwhelmed by her emotions, like a teenager. Also giving Amy a female antagonist with the powers of the jeweled scepter was a nice idea.

Sticks - I just thought, her character is already way flawed, so I asked myself, and she asks herself: Who can I trust? What's real and what is not? Am I willing to team up with the bad guys to protect my friends? etc.

Cream - This one is a bit Tricky, because she doesn't want to fight, and Battle already did the trope "I'm willing to fight for my friends", so I did other cool things with Cream, like a secret that could make her friends' lives in danger, and whether or not she has to keep this secret/threat to keep her friends alive, but she has to lie to them. And she does actually have a darker side, that tempts her keep lying, and a light side that believes in the truth.

Blaze - Making her a bit more vulnerable but still strong, overcoming her fear of heights, Always in prospect of saving her friends, and there is a nice plot where she hides her identity in an armor as Sir Percival to infiltrate a castle. For the second book, I'd love to give her a love interest, a girlfriend...

And obviously Rouge, I actually prefer her as an anti-hero, she doesn't side with the heroes but only makes deals with them to gain something in return, and finally the most precious offer comes from the villains, so in the end she sides with them and pays the price of defeat for it.

That focus and the mystery of finding Sonic (if he's alive), all it made a great idea, I'm glad it was successful, so maybe I should write that second book. Anyway, this is my interpretation of female Sonic characters, who feel all underused.

 

 

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On February 6, 2019 at 4:33 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Knuckles is not, and never has been a serious foil to Sonic. He's definitely a foil, don't get me wrong. But he's not the Piccolo esc character that everyone just kind of assumes he is cuz...reasons I guess.

I do think Knuckles can have a neat dynamic with Sonic similar to that of Daffy and Bugs since Knuckles seems to have a bit of an inferiority complex when he compares with Sonic, and feel jealous too of all the attention he gets. Just look how Sonic is not only the character after whom the franchise is named after,mbut also has his own sidekick and a girl that loves him more than anyone in the entire world while all Knuckles has is a huge rock and a job that nobody thanks him for doing. There's definitively potential to make Knuckles a character everyone would feel empathy for... but it's all thrown away because of how he is seen as the Piccolo of the series, which is ridiculous because:

* Piccolo was evil and vengeful from the very moment he hatched from the egg, while Knuckles is just a good and honest character who is tricked and taken advantage of by Eggman.

* Piccolo had a transition that started when he took away Gohan and warmed up to the boy, slowly discovering there was good in him. Heck,mGohan is basically his adopted son and that fatherly side of Piccolo is what made him eventually become a god guy. Knuckles just doesn't have that transition nor a close bond with characters like Tails or Amy that would led to him having a motivation tonget involved besides the ME, which I think he needs urgently.

 

Anyway...

Something that I always believe that makes a fictional character be considered a "good character" is not how much lore and backstory the have or how many virtues you can pack into them. No, it is all about how credible and entertaining they can be.

Often I see such character be immediately brushed off completely just because they have some eccentricities that are considered to be annoying , or because they don't live up to more idealized standards, as well as how things like being strong or badass are given more importance, especially among those who grew up with some of the most mainstream anime like DBZ.

When it comes to Sonic, the two character I see to set the standard for what an endearing hero and villain can be are Amy and Eggman,,since these two are the characters I find to be the most credible and entertaining within their respective ends of the moral spectrum.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, so SEGA treating the Chaotix (Vector, Espio, Charmy) as modern-only is something I've been saying for a while and is supported by how the mandates have fallen in the post-reboot Archie comics/IDW/Mania etc. That's not the unpopular opinion. 

What the unpopular opinion is, is that I think I've come to understand why they're treated this way, and it's all to do with how they transitioned to the modern era. 

For the characters that exist in both timelines (Sonic, Amy, Knuckles, Tails, Eggman and Metal Sonic), their reintroduction into modern was Sonic Adventure, and while it was a bold new direction, it basically did a semi-soft retcon of their characters. So while certain aspects were changed (Amy and Eggman's designs, a few personality facets), they were still supposed to be the same entities, and the game even references each of the classic games they debuted in on-screen (even if weirdly since it was using the modern looks and pre-existing assets). 

The Chaotix are unique in that they did not have this reintroduction. As said in the now infamous (if you're big into the Chaotix anyway) quite, "In [Iizuka's] mind, [he] didn't bring back the Chaotix", they were given a hard retcon and brought in as if they were brand new to the games (despite also being there to appeal to nostalgia). But what does this have to do with the classic versions not appearing now there's a classic branch? In the process of retconning the Chaotix, it essentially left their classic forms dead to use since they had been explicitly supplanted by their modern selves. This is different to any of the classic-exclusive cast, as they were just left dormant and were therefore free to appear when the window popped up for them.

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In my eyes, the Chaotix were rebooted because the game was mostly unknown and didn't define any of the characters, they just teamed up to kick some egg while the manuals gave them personalities that didn't really fit them in-game. It was easier to re-introduce them than act like they were always around, and there was never a need to bring back their classic counterparts because there wasn't any classic Sonic content to begin with, and even when there was the trio was never important enough in either side. Games like Generations or Mania still reference the game, and didn't Espio and Vector have some moves from Chaotix in the Olympics? Their classic parts may not be active, but Sonic Team still knows that doesn't change where they came from.

Iizuka tends to make up his rules on the spot rather often, and while some of them are consistent (such as only Sonic having a real super form in Mania), others he swiftly breaks such as Mighty and Ray being "sealed away". Aaron also considers Mighty a Chaotix member to this day so it's an unspoken rule at most, and the Classic/Modern split is mainly because Sonic Team don't want to clog up the modern cast even further, characters they probably care about more.

The Mania universe has existed for barely two years and Amy just joined, so if it continues to be a thing, something Chaotix is only really a matter of time. Mighty is now conveniently paired with Ray so they could easily take the trio, give them a slight rework and make them detectives, since that's what Classic Sonic knows them as anyway from Generations and Forces. I dunno, I may be biased here, and I won't get my hopes up since ST work in mysterious ways, but introducing them seems like a much safer choice than jumping straight to Shadow next. Plus, the team as a whole doesn't get much to do in modern Sonic unless a Heroes sequel/remake is on the table, so they could have a comfy spot there while modern games can focus more on characters like Shadow or Silver.

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He's not been that inconsistent. Mighty and Ray are still not allowed in the modern games (which was likely why they were sealed since there was no classic branch), Aaron's thoughts have no bearing on things (recall that one tweet of Modern Mighty from the Social team), and all the mandates done to the comics Chaotix-wise have been to separate them more and more from anything classic. Also assets being referenced in Generations and Mania doesn't mean their characters have to come with it. 

They know where they come from, but nothing Sonic Team has done suggests they want them to go back there. 

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2 hours ago, VEDJ-F said:

He's not been that inconsistent. Mighty and Ray are still not allowed in the modern games (which was likely why they were sealed since there was no classic branch), Aaron's thoughts have no bearing on things (recall that one tweet of Modern Mighty from the Social team), and all the mandates done to the comics Chaotix-wise have been to separate them more and more from anything classic. Also assets being referenced in Generations and Mania doesn't mean their characters have to come with it. 

They know where they come from, but nothing Sonic Team has done suggests they want them to go back there. 

Yeah, Generations has assets from Spinball of all games. I also wonder why MBM assets were not included in Mania in favor of old-school Puyo assets. Is that game a special case? 

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The series needs a more varied rogues gallery. I'm tired of seeing the Egg Empire in every game.

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