Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Hey, bore away. I kinda wanna hear.

I'm gonna try to keep this short. Emphasis on try. I really like DMC

Ok So the first flaw with the assertion that dante is just some crazy guy and everyone only loves that and the devs know it is... he's not. Dante has always had serious sides to him, and not just " Time to get serious " he gets sad , emotional. He gets depressed about stuff, he looses, infact 3 ( probably the most popular game in the series until 5 ) and 5 start with dante loosing, badly. 3 in particular is a heroes journey up a tower. That doesn't mean he can't get silly, he often does. But the idea that dante is purely a silly customer isn't actually true. Him not being silly all the time, compliments his sillyness. DMC3 , before DMC5 is probably was the most popular dmc game. And it has vergil in it, who is captain serious. He's so goddamn serious that every time vergil shows up in the series, dante gets serious. Everything to do with him, and his family makes dante pretty serious , even in the most recent game DMC5. A the director of these games , hiydeki itsuno likes serious dantes. And has dante often confront things that makes him more serious , he likes these characters being multifaceted even if the narratives aren't the best thing in the world. He understands that having a character who is one thing isn't interesting and dante has never really been one thing. The assertion that he's only silly is a surface level take.

So I guess my point is that dante is a multi faceted character he one minute can be combo-ing demons with a motorcyle and the next can be crying about his brother , he can loose and reflect. And is proven in the most recent game, he can just be wrong... and that's it. No caviats he can just be wrong.

2nd is , The games make fun of dante being silly, and dante himself. I think DMC5 has the most perfect introduction to dante as a character. When morrison strolls up to him, his buisness has to lights, he's sitting at a desk, there's no water running. So it smells like piss and shit and there are no lights, he's a giant man anti social man child who doesn't know how to run a business. In DMC5 there is a whole sequence of him doing a Micheal Jackson type dance with a cowboy hat and no one responds everyone else is like " Oh he's doing this shit again " .

3rd the game world and its characters are often against dante  , even fellow protagonists. Dante isn't crazy, dante is crazy in the face of adversity . He's some weirdo trying his best. Sonic hasn't been in the face of anything resembling adversity or stakes in...  ever. Even things like forces doesn't have enough of an interesting threat to make any of the characters interesting.

To summarize.

He's multifaced , not just silly. That makes you appreciate the sillyness. And he even started out as a much more serious character

He's allowed to loose, be wrong and get made fun of. And the game does the last one itself

He's often pitted against such insane stuff , his charisma in the face of that is interesting.

 

I would love if sonic was like dante. I would love if sonic could cry and be sad and have introspection , while also being a silly guy and a dork. I would love if he lost , and was wrong and got shit on. I would love if his attitude was in the face of adversity instead of nothing.

Dante is not some perfect paragon, some rolemodel, none of that. He's a flawed asshole, trying his best and that's why people love dante. And if sonic could evolve into that, i'm beyond down. A sonic that actually acts like a kid, like a 16 year old. He makes bad jokes people sand bag, he gets beat up by taking stuff on out of his league , but gets up and keeps going anyway. Actual flaws. A sonic who could cry sometimes, because dante has. Would be fantastic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

17 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm gonna try to keep this short. Emphasis on try. I really like DMC

Ok So the first flaw with the assertion that dante is just some crazy guy and everyone only loves that and the devs know it is... he's not. Dante has always had serious sides to him, and not just " Time to get serious " he gets sad , emotional. He gets depressed about stuff, he looses, infact 3 ( probably the most popular game in the series until 5 ) and 5 start with dante loosing, badly. 3 in particular is a heroes journey up a tower. That doesn't mean he can't get silly, he often does. But the idea that dante is purely a silly customer isn't actually true. Him not being silly all the time, compliments his sillyness. DMC3 , before DMC5 is probably was the most popular dmc game. And it has vergil in it, who is captain serious. He's so goddamn serious that every time vergil shows up in the series, dante gets serious. Everything to do with him, and his family makes dante pretty serious , even in the most recent game DMC5. A the director of these games , hiydeki itsuno likes serious dantes. And has dante often confront things that makes him more serious , he likes these characters being multifaceted even if the narratives aren't the best thing in the world. He understands that having a character who is one thing isn't interesting and dante has never really been one thing. The assertion that he's only silly is a surface level take.

So I guess my point is that dante is a multi faceted character he one minute can be combo-ing demons with a motorcyle and the next can be crying about his brother , he can loose and reflect. And is proven in the most recent game, he can just be wrong... and that's it. No caviats he can just be wrong.

2nd is , The games make fun of dante being silly, and dante himself. I think DMC5 has the most perfect introduction to dante as a character. When morrison strolls up to him, his buisness has to lights, he's sitting at a desk, there's no water running. So it smells like piss and shit and there are no lights, he's a giant man anti social man child who doesn't know how to run a business. In DMC5 there is a whole sequence of him doing a Micheal Jackson type dance with a cowboy hat and no one responds everyone else is like " Oh he's doing this shit again " .

3rd the game world and its characters are often against dante  , even fellow protagonists. Dante isn't crazy, dante is crazy in the face of adversity . He's some weirdo trying his best. Sonic hasn't been in the face of anything resembling adversity or stakes in...  ever. Even things like forces doesn't have enough of an interesting threat to make any of the characters interesting.

To summarize.

He's multifaced , not just silly. That makes you appreciate the sillyness. And he even started out as a much more serious character

He's allowed to loose, be wrong and get made fun of. And the game does the last one itself

He's often pitted against such insane stuff , his charisma in the face of that is interesting.

 

I would love if sonic was like dante. I would love if sonic could cry and be sad and have introspection , while also being a silly guy and a dork. I would love if he lost , and was wrong and got shit on. I would love if his attitude was in the face of adversity instead of nothing.

Dante is not some perfect paragon, some rolemodel, none of that. He's a flawed asshole, trying his best and that's why people love dante. And if sonic could evolve into that, i'm beyond down. A sonic that actually acts like a kid, like a 16 year old. He makes bad jokes people sand bag, he gets beat up by taking stuff on out of his league , but gets up and keeps going anyway. Actual flaws. A sonic who could cry sometimes, because dante has. Would be fantastic

Ah ok, that makes perfect sense. And it's something that you make a good point about.

While it's true that Sonic's never been very well characterized, there were plenty of moments where he was allowed to at least have more depth and show that he's got more going on under the hood than just ONLY being a devil may care wanderer type. Sonic and a lot of his friends nowadays just aren't allowed to be multifaceted, because so many people, whether just through pseudo PTSD from Sonic 06 or just people too unwilling to really bother with nuance because the series "is just for kids", just keep wanting Sonic to be as safe and shallow as possible, because safe and shallow doesn't have the possibility of causing the pain that Sonic 06 seems to have scarred into the collective Sonic fandom and franchises' psyche. The problem is, it doesn't allow for any growth or depth either, and thus instead of blowing up in a glorious fire of epic fail, or having glorious highs and glorious lows, or ideally really good solid games all around in every facet, it instead fizzles and sputters along, never "failing" but never standing out in any manner of note either.

Also on a side note, do you guys get a feeling of deja vu here? because I feel like we've talked about Devil May Cry and Sonic before, but I don't remember where.

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I would love if sonic could cry and be sad and have introspection...

Sonic can feel sad, he just doesn't get any introspection. He's only ever sad so he can get over it later, not for development sake.

 

No cry though, Sonic the Hedgehog dislikes tears.

[Tarnish]

11 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

or just people too unwilling to really bother with nuance because the series "is just for kids"

I wouldn't say "is just for kids" is a good excuse for shallow, one dimensional characters. There are a lot of kid cartoons that explore a lot of different emotions and do a decent job at it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

1 minute ago, Tarnish said:

I wouldn't say "is just for kids" is a good excuse for shallow, one dimensional characters. There are a lot of kid cartoons that explore a lot of different emotions and do a decent job at it.

That was my point. It's not a good excuse at all.

[Wraith]

13 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Also on a side note, do you guys get a feeling of deja vu here? because I feel like we've talked about Devil May Cry and Sonic before, but I don't remember where.

It wouldn't surprise me. The story structure of Japanese action games like Devil May Cry is similar to the kinds of things Sonic used to try and do and it's way more engaging. It's not a bad example of what they should try and go for, imo. 

[Kuzu]

11 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

So there was a long response here. But I don't want to waste your time, maybe you didn't want to come back to some paragraphs. So i'll leave it up to you , if you want I can explain why dante is not only an awful example. Speaks to how bad sonic is in man regards and how I actually wish sonic was more like dante. Or we could just drop it. Sometimes you come back and you don't even wanna deal with an argument. I get it. So i'll give you the option.

I mean i agree with this but what does this have to do with anything

....I don't even know how to respond this...wut?

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

....I don't even know how to respond this...wut?

Before SenenatorEd asked for clairification all I was saying was. I had a long response there, didn't wanna bog you down with it. I think you were wrong, but like who cares. If you wanna hear it cool, if you don't , its also cool. This is an opinion thread and sometimes folks just wanna state how they feel and dip and I wasn't gonna be mad at you if you didn't wanna deal with some weirdo talking about how a blue hedgehog lacks character flaws.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Before SenenatorEd asked for clairification all I was saying was. I had a long response there, didn't wanna bog you down with it. I think you were wrong, but like who cares. If you wanna hear it cool, if you don't , its also cool. This is an opinion thread and sometimes folks just wanna state how they feel and dip and I wasn't gonna be mad at you if you didn't wanna deal with some weirdo talking about how a blue hedgehog lacks character flaws.

I'm more concerned why you seem to assume that I'm just going to dismiss you and have this "ho hum" attitude about it.

If you got a response, just say it and I'll respond it the best I can. It's not that complicated.

[Sonic Fan J]

When I look at the above conversations I honestly find that I'm probably the odd man out in not wanting to see Sonic himself humanized, but rather the characters around him. I'm fine with that to be sure as it allows me to see how other people see the franchise. Only down side is really that it feels like everyone else has their heels dug in to the point that they won't even discuss the merits or avenues available by putting Sonic on that pedestal. Sure you could take the negative approach and just use something along the lines of that's just wanting to see Sonic do cool things but it ignores the characters who surround Sonic. I mean honestly, what does it feel like to have Sonic in your world. How does it feel to face a larger than life character like Sonic who always stops your plans? How does it feel to chase after that? What's it like barely being good enough at what you do and seeing Sonic always succeed? What's it like having your entire identity put into question because this larger than life figure who just is, is? It's also why I enjoy that Sonic is an adventurer as it allows for new character stories without having to compromise Sonic's status quo.

If anything, I would prefer that one off characters like Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, etc. stayed gone at the end of their story arcs unless there is a new idea that fits them and allows a new story to be told that allows Sonic to partake in another adventure. As much as I can come up with ways to tie Knuckles to the Master Emerald and still keep him an adventurer himself his story with the Master Emerald was resolved and resolved again when it was revisited in Adventure along with the fall of the echidnas. It's the same with Shadow. First his mission of revenge and a general theme of eth truth which then became about his identity to finally his conviction. All of those story arcs have been resolved though and every other appearance of his has been wasted just like Knuckles so I'd rather not see him again if he has no story to tell. Sonic on the other hand being a static larger than life character who adventures always allows for new stories just by the nature of where he goes and who he meets with Tails and Amy being the characters who highlight the flaws of that way of life since they aren't larger than life.

Anyway, at this point I'm just rambling. Bottom line is though, for as many advantages as there are to humanizing Sonic I find that there are just as many and interesting stories to be discovered by putting him back on the pedestal he was created on. Of course both can coexist within the same narrative as well and I think Black Knight is probably the closest it's ever come even though it was on the pedestal side of the series. But that's fine to since one of Sonic's caveats is to live a life without regrets. It's part of what makes him carefree but also what allows him to keep going whatever happens and assure that he enjoys life. An interesting philosophy and great image for a mascot of a gaming company as long as Sonic always remains on the side of making lives better when given the opportunity. He has once been described as disliking tears after all so it wouldn't make sense to see him not helping people if they need it.

[batson]

Sonic 06 is good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

APRIL FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLS!

 

There, I did my duty.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm more concerned why you seem to assume that I'm just going to dismiss you and have this "ho hum" attitude about it.

If you got a response, just say it and I'll respond it the best I can. It's not that complicated.

Just was trying to be nice, sorry.

[Kuzu]

27 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Just was trying to be nice, sorry.

There's nothing to apologize for; it's a forum about a video game series. There's no need to be so hesitant to speak. Speak ya mind dude.

[Dr. Detective]

They haven't even scratched the surface of what they could do with Knuckles and his Master Emerald. Not a fan of the fact that they did the same thing for two Adventure games then stopped trying. It should have been a big warning of the extreme laziness to come.

I've had push back before about how versatile Knuckles has the potential to be and how I don't mind him showing up all the time should it be attached to some sort of ongoing character driven thing that allows for it to be understandable. Or at the very least, if they mention the Master Emerald every once in a while, which Sonic Heroes does, more than once, but then afterward it stops happening.  

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

When I look at the above conversations I honestly find that I'm probably the odd man out in not wanting to see Sonic himself humanized, but rather the characters around him. I'm fine with that to be sure as it allows me to see how other people see the franchise. Only down side is really that it feels like everyone else has their heels dug in to the point that they won't even discuss the merits or avenues available by putting Sonic on that pedestal. Sure you could take the negative approach and just use something along the lines of that's just wanting to see Sonic do cool things but it ignores the characters who surround Sonic. I mean honestly, what does it feel like to have Sonic in your world. How does it feel to face a larger than life character like Sonic who always stops your plans? How does it feel to chase after that? What's it like barely being good enough at what you do and seeing Sonic always succeed? What's it like having your entire identity put into question because this larger than life figure who just is, is? It's also why I enjoy that Sonic is an adventurer as it allows for new character stories without having to compromise Sonic's status quo.

If anything, I would prefer that one off characters like Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, etc. stayed gone at the end of their story arcs unless there is a new idea that fits them and allows a new story to be told that allows Sonic to partake in another adventure. As much as I can come up with ways to tie Knuckles to the Master Emerald and still keep him an adventurer himself his story with the Master Emerald was resolved and resolved again when it was revisited in Adventure along with the fall of the echidnas. It's the same with Shadow. First his mission of revenge and a general theme of eth truth which then became about his identity to finally his conviction. All of those story arcs have been resolved though and every other appearance of his has been wasted just like Knuckles so I'd rather not see him again if he has no story to tell. Sonic on the other hand being a static larger than life character who adventures always allows for new stories just by the nature of where he goes and who he meets with Tails and Amy being the characters who highlight the flaws of that way of life since they aren't larger than life.

Anyway, at this point I'm just rambling. Bottom line is though, for as many advantages as there are to humanizing Sonic I find that there are just as many and interesting stories to be discovered by putting him back on the pedestal he was created on. Of course both can coexist within the same narrative as well and I think Black Knight is probably the closest it's ever come even though it was on the pedestal side of the series. But that's fine to since one of Sonic's caveats is to live a life without regrets. It's part of what makes him carefree but also what allows him to keep going whatever happens and assure that he enjoys life. An interesting philosophy and great image for a mascot of a gaming company as long as Sonic always remains on the side of making lives better when given the opportunity. He has once been described as disliking tears after all so it wouldn't make sense to see him not helping people if they need it.

I don't really agree with your point that other characters besides Sonic, Tails, and Amy because you'd probably run into the same problems that are currently facing Sonic, Tails, and Eggman; i.e. no interesting character conflicts or dynamics. 

How many times can you play the same tropes and character arcs before they're played out and become stale? We've already seen Tails look up to Sonic, we've already seen Amy admire Sonic and quite frankly I'm bored of it.

This is why I'd be much more interested in exploring other character dynamics. What would Sonic treat Rouge like? Maybe Tails admires Knuckles' strength? Amy and Shadow? There's too many possibilities for engaging character dynamics to just limit things 1-3 characters and we can see that in the series right now. Adding Amy isn't really gonna solve anything 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

20 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I don't really agree with your point that other characters besides Sonic, Tails, and Amy because you'd probably run into the same problems that are currently facing Sonic, Tails, and Eggman; i.e. no interesting character conflicts or dynamics. 

How many times can you play the same tropes and character arcs before they're played out and become stale? We've already seen Tails look up to Sonic, we've already seen Amy admire Sonic and quite frankly I'm bored of it.

This is why I'd be much more interested in exploring other character dynamics. What would Sonic treat Rouge like? Maybe Tails admires Knuckles' strength? Amy and Shadow? There's too many possibilities for engaging character dynamics to just limit things 1-3 characters and we can see that in the series right now. Adding Amy isn't really gonna solve anything 

In addition to what Kuzu said about this kind of thing being stale @Sonic Fan J, there’s also the fact that paragon characters tend to oftentimes be some of the most boring characters unless you are willing to let them be multifaceted. If you’re trying to have Sonic be an All Might figure ala My Hero Academia, then you also need to be willing to let the All Might Sonic have his own failings and weaknesses, because that’s what makes All Might so compelling despite being the Superman of his world; the fact that his strengths can easily become his weaknesses depending on the circumstance, the fact that for every good he does, he can’t deal with every evil that exists, people developing resentment for a number of reasons that are perfectly legitimate instead of Sonic always being in the right. If you don’t do that, you just get a boring Mary Sue character.

[Wraith]

When people say "This character's story is done, they don't need to appear anymore" It just comes off to me as a lack of creativity. It's possible for a Sonic character to have more than one arc and that arc doesn't necessarily have to tie into their past or whatever either. 

[E-122-Psi]

Also flaws don't just work in terms of giving a character a fallible dent in their armour, but they also often help in giving them two way chemistries with the other cast members, which can be beneficial to them as well. Chris and Tails idolising Sonic, Amy fawning over him and Knuckles questioning his approaches in X I think was all castrated in how it could develop because Sonic just stonewalled all of it, thus they were unable to really take it a more three dimensional level and their own personalities felt limited by the dynamic. They were trying to get a shtick out of a character that wasn't playing along. Compare this to Tails and Amy's far more multi faceted chemistries with Sonic in Boom. They benefit from him being more rounded as a character.

This is something I think they missed the point with in Archie as well. They tried to give the Freedom Fighters more fallible personalities, but it didn't really flesh them out in terms of chemistries and dynamics with the other characters. They were still just straight man characters for the large part, just they had the odd moment they screwed up. They could have played on Sally's insecurities for example and how that can affect the other members, calling out how she chides Sonic but then makes similar errors when pressured, how her meticulous approach may not always be much more infallible than Sonic's spontaneous one, how she can sometimes be unintentionally patronising or overbearing, stuff that could all play into how she distinctively interacts with everyone and flesh out their dynamics a little too, but for the large part it felt just a 'Sally did something wrong, not a Mary Sue' type self contained quota, and in some cases even made her character more generic. (This is kind of why I think Twilight Sparkle is a better written Sally, all these aspects play into her dynamics with the rest of the cast and give her and the others some fun character moments.)

A good character generally isn't just fun as an individual but contributes to the big mix of things. I think that's why some are divided by even some of the more fleshed out Sonic characters, because many of them feel to isolated and sometimes even need to skew the universe to make their own character work within it.

[StaticMania]

All of Sonic's own faults and weaknesses can be explored in his solo adventures.

That's the next step of the story book series of games.

[Sonic Fan J]

28 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I don't really agree with your point that other characters besides Sonic, Tails, and Amy because you'd probably run into the same problems that are currently facing Sonic, Tails, and Eggman; i.e. no interesting character conflicts or dynamics. 

How many times can you play the same tropes and character arcs before they're played out and become stale? We've already seen Tails look up to Sonic, we've already seen Amy admire Sonic and quite frankly I'm bored of it.

This is why I'd be much more interested in exploring other character dynamics. What would Sonic treat Rouge like? Maybe Tails admires Knuckles' strength? Amy and Shadow? There's too many possibilities for engaging character dynamics to just limit things 1-3 characters and we can see that in the series right now. Adding Amy isn't really gonna solve anything 

The reason I always fall back onto those three is because while they are status quo locked their status quo is the ne that most allows for continuing adventures that follow the story of Sonic. Sure there isn't a lot of development with those three in particular, but conversely that allows you to focus on the story of the location and anyone affiliated with that story. As I've said before, to me Sonic is about the adventures and the places he goes and how he effects those location so a recurring cast isn't really necessary, but as Tails and Amy are the ones I personally feel fit the role best due to how I prefer Sonic stories they usually fill the role if I need more than Sonic and the cast of the location. Though really I'm good with any kid character who can look up to some aspect of Sonic and desire to better themselves to see more of him doing what he does. As a result it's part of why I like Marine as she is a kid character with the desire to adventure though her lack of idolizing Sonic would definitely introduce a different dynamic.

Now admittedly I can see how such a setup like this can be limiting (I've seen more than enough people who can't figure out how the Pokémon anime is still going with Ash/Satoshi perpetually locked in his status quo) especially if you follow the story for the characters and how hey develop. To me though that is always the benefit of creating distinct and imaginative locations populated with interesting and engaging characters which this franchise used to really thrive at. It's why enjoy Adventure's story as well 06 despite how botched it is.

Of course I never said limit the cast entirely to just those three, particularly since I prefer seeing how Sonic affects different characters along his adventures and how the characters that follow him see that. If we completely limited the cast that would result in a rather stale experience. No, what I said is that if a character has their story finished, take them out of use until you have a story to tell with them again that also allows Sonic to go on another adventure to another new and exciting place. You can reuse characters all you want as long as they have more purpose than being eye candy for their fans in a narrative. When I ask what role does Knuckles (or even Shadow sometimes) serves and the only answer is to be Sonic's rival with all of no examples of how they are rivaling Sonic in any of their outings where they have no story significance they come across as a total waste. At least in the scenario that I present Tails and Amy have a locked perception of Sonic and relationship to him so you can hand wave their appearance away, not that you have to. How do they interact with the new location and characters that chasing after Sonic has brought them into contact with? How are those people affected by them and not just Sonic? There are stories to be told from that perspective and I personally believe that they can be quite engaging simply because of the story arc central characters.

21 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

In addition to what Kuzu said about this kind of thing being stale @Sonic Fan J, there’s also the fact that paragon characters tend to oftentimes be some of the most boring characters unless you are willing to let them be multifaceted. If you’re trying to have Sonic be an All Might figure ala My Hero Academia, then you also need to be willing to let the All Might Sonic have his own failings and weaknesses, because that’s what makes All Might so compelling despite being the Superman of his world; the fact that his strengths can easily become his weaknesses depending on the circumstance, the fact that for every good he does, he can’t deal with every evil that exists, people developing resentment for a number of reasons that are perfectly legitimate instead of Sonic always being in the right. If you don’t do that, you just get a boring Mary Sue character.

As much as Sonic is supposed to be a mascot representing SEGA's idealized self image in the nineties he is a character I would never call a paragon. He's larger than life, not the perfect life model. What makes him inspiring is his approach to life and how he doesn't let anything hold him back, ever. Sure it could be even more inspiring if say Sonic was a total coward who only through himself at everything to conquer his own fear of everything, but that has never been who Sonic is. So while I agree about All Might (honestly I enjoy him more as a goofy mentor than larger than life hero) to me beyond being larger than life neither him or Sonic are comparable. Most notably is that most people are aware of Sonic's attitude problem which has always been one of his selling points. I honestly recall when I was a kid there were parents who didn't like Sonic because they were afraid his attitude would be a bad impression on their kids. That bad influence though is another thing that can be explored in how he affects people no less in the established cast as it is. I mean for as kind and sweet as Amy fans have a tendency of making her out to be (outside of @Skull Leader who actually appreciates her brattiness and temper when played right) no one seems to remember that she was introduced with the nickname "Rascal" which would imply that she herself was intended to have some trouble making qualities of her own. Sonic's influences are not always good and that is both a good thing and something that needs to be explored more in my opinion.

9 minutes ago, Wraith said:

When people say "This character's story is done, they don't need to appear anymore" It just comes off to me as a lack of creativity. It's possible for a Sonic character to have more than one arc and that arc doesn't necessarily have to tie into their past or whatever either. 

I whole heartedly agree, it's why I usually try to put emphasis on if you don't have a story to tell with the character and they don't make sense as a recurring character then don't use them. If you have a story to tell with them by all means though, please share it.

-----

Again though there's a reason I called myself the odd man out. I know most people here want to get into the nitty gritty of what makes Sonic tick. They want to know how is emotionally reacting to every situation, what he's thinking, how his past experiences inform his current actions etc. The funny thing is though, SEGA never intended for that and unlike most people I bought into that and can still enjoy what they give me. Sure I have my own idealized preferences (don't we all) which aren't met either, but Sonic as a static larger than life character I've been good with since day one even if I don't enjoy every characterization that they throw at him. That said though, I would never tell anyone else to accept my preferences (now if I was in charge of building a Sonic game you'd have to live with them for one game), I just wouldn't mind seeing people talk about what can be done from the larger than life put on a pedestal Sonic than constantly talking about what can't be done. But hey, if no one wants to talk about that side of things that's my loss and no skin off anyone else's back.

[Kuzu]

21 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Also flaws don't just work in terms of giving a character a fallible dent in their armour, but they also often help in giving them two way chemistries with the other cast members, which can be beneficial to them as well. Chris and Tails idolising Sonic, Amy fawning over him and Knuckles questioning his approaches in X I think was all castrated in how it could develop because Sonic just stonewalled all of it, thus they were unable to really take it a more three dimensional level and their own personalities felt limited by the dynamic. They were trying to get a shtick out of a character that wasn't playing along. Compare this to Tails and Amy's far more multi faceted chemistries with Sonic in Boom. They benefit from him being more rounded as a character.

This is something I think they missed the point with in Archie as well. They tried to give the Freedom Fighters more fallible personalities, but it didn't really flesh them out in terms of chemistries and dynamics with the other characters. They were still just straight man characters for the large part, just they had the odd moment they screwed up. They could have played on Sally's insecurities for example and how that can affect the other members, calling out how she chides Sonic but then makes similar errors when pressured, how her meticulous approach may not always be much more infallible than Sonic's spontaneous one, how she can sometimes be unintentionally patronising or overbearing, stuff that could all play into how she distinctively interacts with everyone and flesh out their dynamics a little too, but for the large part it felt just a 'Sally did something wrong, not a Mary Sue' type self contained quota, and in some cases even made her character more generic. (This is kind of why I think Twilight Sparkle is a better written Sally, all these aspects play into her dynamics with the rest of the cast and give her and the others some fun character moments.)

A good character generally isn't just fun as an individual but contributes to the big mix of things. I think that's why some are divided by even some of the more fleshed out Sonic characters, because many of them feel to isolated and sometimes even need to skew the universe to make their own character work within it.

You know, not to sound negative, but we get it. You don't like SATAM or Archie, you don't have to keep pointing out a negative example from them to prove your point. We got the message.

[Shadowlax]

27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

When people say "This character's story is done, they don't need to appear anymore" It just comes off to me as a lack of creativity. It's possible for a Sonic character to have more than one arc and that arc doesn't necessarily have to tie into their past or whatever either. 

Yeah like ... It sort of ignores I dunno.... the history of every other brand that has had characters who have lasted for decades. Like do people say this about ... every comic book in existance, transformers, my little pony even.  Stories are gonna keep being told, these characters are a brand, unless the character being gone is gonna really weigh on some characters mind for a long time... who cares give em new stories. Its why I always found the suggestion shadow should have stayed gone silly, who is it for. Shadow's some weirdo who showed up , and left and would have been largely unmentioned by the characters after a single game. But people like em, might as well use em. I'm not fond of silver, but people like him, might as well use him. Yeah why he's here is a little funky , but that is what retcons are for

[E-122-Psi]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You know, not to sound negative, but we get it. You don't like SATAM or Archie, you don't have to keep pointing out a negative example from them to prove your point. We got the message.

In fairness I didn't just call out those two medias. I pointed out issues with Sonic X and the games in that regard. And Archie is the massive multiplayer crossover of Sonic so of course it's going to house examples of many of the franchise's flaws.

For a non SatAm/Archie example, let's look at the 'Shadow era', how a ridiculous amount of the franchise's universe had to be altered drastically just to house this new character and make him the star, not to mention the many many characters he didn't really have any relevant chemistry with so got demoted the more prominently he was used.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

In fairness I didn't just call out those two medias. I pointed out issues with Sonic X and the games in that regard. And Archie is the massive multiplayer crossover of Sonic so of course it's going to house examples of many of the franchise's flaws.

But its literally the main example you ever use, and its always in a negative light. And its always railing the same points on how flat, boring, everything in Archie is.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that the constant repetition is making me numb to consider your points. Because as I said, you ALWAYS do it.

[Wraith]

42 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

Again though there's a reason I called myself the odd man out. I know most people here want to get into the nitty gritty of what makes Sonic tick. They want to know how is emotionally reacting to every situation, what he's thinking, how his past experiences inform his current actions etc. The funny thing is though, SEGA never intended for that and unlike most people I bought into that and can still enjoy what they give me. Sure I have my own idealized preferences (don't we all) which aren't met either, but Sonic as a static larger than life character I've been good with since day one even if I don't enjoy every characterization that they throw at him. That said though, I would never tell anyone else to accept my preferences (now if I was in charge of building a Sonic game you'd have to live with them for one game), I just wouldn't mind seeing people talk about what can be done from the larger than life put on a pedestal Sonic than constantly talking about what can't be done. But hey, if no one wants to talk about that side of things that's my loss and no skin off anyone else's back.

It's just the kind of thing that's difficult for me to draft a scenario around unless I focus hard on one of the other characters instead. Like it feels like by putting Sonic on such a high pedestal I'm actually robbing him of the attention you give a well rounded character. Can't help but feel like I'm selling him short.