Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

...Eh sonic can be dork, shadow can be a dork. Relegating that to certain types of characters limits others. I like shadow, but you know amy touched his bike and lost his shit and it was funny one time, oh hey hypothetical scenario.  Shadow could be really into comic books, its a really dorky thing to do and yes you can get a chuckle out of it.  But it also be a means to explain what else shadow does in his spare times, and how he relaxes. Maybe he reads hero comics because he wants to be seen like one of them one day, there is a lot of things you can do with small details like that if you allow the characters to actually expand.  You can have characters engage in acts that have them drop their usual and get a bit weird touch on aspects we don't really see. Sometimes that requires getting a bit dorky.

My Shadow dork headcanon was that he kind of inherented some of Maria's interests. So in addition to bikes and the usual masculine shit he likes....cooking, music and the occasional shitty soap opera. 

I see them all as fucking nerds though so yeah. Even Sonic.

[Shadowlax]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

My Shadow dork headcanon was that he kind of inherented some of Maria's interests. So in addition to bikes and the usual masculine shit he likes....cooking, music and the occasional shitty soap opera. 

I see them all as fucking nerds though so yeah. Even Sonic.

My maria/gerald hobbies headcanon. Is that conically for me the whole arc thing took place during the 60's and 70's and shadow is just really into music from that era and no one gets why , but it reminds of maria. So shadow listens to prog rock and 70's funk and no one knows why.  Also he has the voice of a golden god , but only rouge knows this  . Gerald made sure to progam that in.

In my mind shadow is just bad at cooking. Like he tries to make cereal and the shit lights on fire. But yeah yeah, every sonic character is a huge dork.

My rouge dork headcanon is stolen from borderlands.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

While I agree , I think sonic and his friends can be more than just that. Sonic characters for me , have always had the potential to have expanded characterization. And while they can also be " lets fight an actual challenging bad guy " they can also be " Lets also try and be relatable people somewhat " 

What are you talking about? One there are plenty of action adventure shows, comics, even movies that have what I described. Spiderman enter the damn spider verse has a meme about miles doing some weird akward as shit his uncle taught him with a girl and that shit won an academy award my guy.  You can totes do character action stuff and also be silly character focused and charming.

This is ontop of that happening isn't self deprecating or ironic, just because something bad happens to a character in a story doesn't mean that story is makng fun of that character in a thing beyond that immediate moment, it could just be purely comedic in its own right or a chance to grow a character. But the idea that sonic facing some adversity in life is some how self deprecating is nonsense.

And yes , sometimes self deprecation does get a bit annoying. But I would make the argument it isn't as much as you think and a lot of heroes are moving the opposite direction, while also being a bit human and having flaws. Taking ones self seriously still is becoming the thing to do again.

And as for sonic, yes the constant self deprecation from the twitte and such can get annoying sometimes. But I would argue its annoying because of the quality of the games we have been getting. But this is another discussion

While I agree they have potential to be more, you have to consider if that's feasible for a long running series.

 

Into The Spiderverse is an hour and a half featured length film. Sonic is an almost 30 year franchise with no end in sight.

Consistent characterization like that only really works if the character is a one off or you plan adding to their story. The series has already made it clear that's not the type of storytelling it wants.

 

I mean, look how many people are tired of seeing Spider Man or Batman's origin stories for instance.

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

How about a flawed hero who overcomes their vices and changes the world around him? Or even just a flawed hero who changes the world while continuing to be flawed?

I'm not gonna say every character should be some tortured soul fighting with their inner demons, but if you can't work any kind of flaw or foible into your protagonist and if you can't make the conflict operate on a personal level to some extent I can't imagine producing much more than fluff.

This much is absolutely true, and a major obstacle to the series actually having good stories. Sonic can't change much because this series isn't a story meant to have an ending; it's not supposed to lead anywhere, it's just supposed to keep running in place. But I don't think a flawless and unchanging protagonist is the right answer to that problem.

I'm not saying it's an absolute answer, just easier to deal with. Ideally, you should change things around.

 

Maybe shift the POV from Sonic to another character, have a good rogues gallery for Sonic to fight,  and have Sonic's personality create conflict with the likes of the other good guys like Knuckles or Shadow. Those are ways around that without really changing Sonic himself much.

[Dr. Detective]

You know, the Lost World talk actually got me thinking about another unpopular opinion. 

Some people react to Lost World as though it were the worst of the Pontac and Graff stuff. Honestly, I feel like it's undoubtedly their best work.

It still fell flat on its face due to how underwritten it was and how confused the narrative was about its own ideas but the fact that it had the stones to bring those ideas up at all, I did find miraculous. It almost hit that sweet spot of finding a rational reason for why Sonic and Tails would fight each other, unlike the weirdness that was House of Cards from the Archie Books where Tails fought Sonic because he was mad that Sonic stole his pretend girlfriend. 

Sonic IS cocky and full of himself. Tails is more restrained and obviously smarter than him, but he's also got a bit of a self-esteem issue. Sonic rushing in and doing what he does without consulting the friend whose there literally to be consulted to is something he would do and struggle with. Even after the situation was resolved in Lost World, it could very easily still be an issue that crops up from time to time because with an intense personality like Sonic, how could it not?

Then you've got Tails whose doing his damned to be as useful as he can to Sonic but isn't being given the opportunity, even when he's constantly being proven right. It's something that not only would reasonably get him mad but also could be used to get him a little sad too.

Then there's Dr. Eggman, who, as far as the games are concerned, has the absolute best written dialogue his character has ever been given. Again, as far as the games are concerned.

Eggman was such a fascinating character in Lost World. Dude took over the Zeti like a conquering mad-man but still had scenes to himself where he made clear his intentions to merely borrow the planet's energy and NOT destroy it. He even offered pity to the damage the Zeti caused the planet at the end of the game when he made his heel turn.

Then there's his actions when he was working with Sonic and Tails. It really did a lot to make it seem as though he was doing what he could to honor the deal they made. He saved Tails' life and when asked why he would do so mere seconds after contemplating a mass genocide of the Lost Hex, his response was "I'm a complicated guy" which is still one of my Top 5 favorite Eggman lines. He also saved Sonic, albeit for more nefarious reasons BUT you'd be forgiven in thinking it was for the sake of staying true to the agreement they made until they reached the machine and all bets were off again. 

I just like the idea behind that. Eggman, the gentleman, staying true to conviction until he didn't feel he had to anymore. Of course, his plan was to have Sonic and Tails get him past the Zeti so that he could get to his machine again but the man is such a good actor, I still believe he was somewhat genuine.

I've gone on and on about what doesn't work about Lost World so I'll refrain from it here. 

[Kuzu]

I give Lost World a lot of shit, mostly because its squandered its potential so badly. Finally, you have a story that Sonic has to overcome an internal character flaw in himself and you just fuck it up to the extent that people are even less inclined to take this series seriously.

Every potential good idea this series has is just wasted and I hate it so much because it's not. That. Difficult.

And yet somehow, this series finds a way. Its exhausting...

 

 

[Wraith]

I don't think it was a complete waste of time just because it didn't pan out. It's still something I've never seen before and haven't seen since then. That's a good quality to have for a series and character that tends to lean on the same story beats.

Forces made it a point to clean up Sonic's personality to the point where he's much more of a straightforward hero like people seemed to want. Nobody really cares about that though and pretends it's the same thing as Colors since he still tell jokes sometimes I guess?

It kind of turned into a lose-lose situation, really.

[Kuzu]

I mean we've gotten to a point where nobody really knows what they want anymore.

But I didn't really have an issue with Sonic in Forces. Its everything else that's really bad.

 

Which is funny because I don't get how people love Sonic in SA1 and then say he's terrible in Forces. But I suppose the latter is because Sonic is dissonant with the tone of the game. 

Forces is this dark ass gritty game about war and shit, and here you have Sonic cracking jokes about body odor.  Its jarring, but that's another symptom of how tone deaf that game was; didn't know what it wanted to be.

[StaticMania]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mik-Eggman said:

And the scene where Sonic reacts too fast and Tails gets captured, the first thing out of Sonic's mouth is "I'm supposed to be the fastest but I was too slow to save my buddy" and it's like... NO! 

I wonder how it's possible to even not catch a glaring problem like that.

He causes the problem by being impatient then reacts as if it wasn't his fault.

In an ideal situation it'd be like: he ignores the initial issue that caused the main conflict and continues on until he has to realize it (his impatience) is an actual problem because he keeps doing it and he learns to not be like that, simple simple.

In an ideal situation more people could directly note how even though the initial conflict starter was a result of one of his flaws, the only reason he starts to feel sad and junk is because he "wasn't fast enough" to save Tails from being captured due to one of his flaws. And I could laugh at that because it's funny and hilarious.

[SBR2]

So...I Guess my unpopular opinion is that I actually like Sonic's character then. I actually enjoy his snarky attitude and that he's clearly got more going on than that since theres a lot of evidence about how much he cares about his friends but just doesn't like tears and isn't exactly a touchy feely type. 

[Shadowlax]

39 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

While I agree they have potential to be more, you have to consider if that's feasible for a long running series.

 

Into The Spiderverse is an hour and a half featured length film. Sonic is an almost 30 year franchise with no end in sight.

Consistent characterization like that only really works if the character is a one off or you plan adding to their story. The series has already made it clear that's not the type of storytelling it wants.

But spiderman ( peter parker )  has had pretty consistent characterization along with growing characterization , and he's been around for like 60+ years, other comic heroes too. This is isn't even to mention other brands that just reboot themselves every once in a while.

Its completely feasible and there are multiple ways to do this and people have been doing this for decades. And if there is ever point where cool changes again, much like the comic book heroes or the reboot branded heroes of the modern day, they can just... shift. If you want your character to last, generally they need to be malleable in some way.

So yeah its actually totally fine and everyone's doing it.

39 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

I mean, look how many people are tired of seeing Spider Man or Batman's origin stories for instance.

That has nothing to do with the topic?

39 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm not saying it's an absolute answer, just easier to deal with. Ideally, you should change things around.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I mean we've gotten to a point where nobody really knows what they want anymore.

 

I know what I want. And I think a lot of other people have ideas of what they desire too. Sega is really bad at interpreting that into anything meaningful though

[E-122-Psi]

I understand the need for positive roles for Sonic. In fact X Sonic (at least during his more charismatic moments) would have been fine IN DOSES. I want a smidgeon of flaws for Sonic to keep him interesting, but I don't want him to become a standard impetuous protagonist who causes more problems than he solves and keeps needing to learn lessons every single story, even when another side character would better befit that treatment. That's why I keep bringing up SatAm/Archie Sonic negatively, because they overdid all the parables and flawed moments for him, either by using the same formula about him being reckless and egotistical over and over or giving him new flaws according to the current story which compromised his redeeming aspects and made him by far the most dysfunctional and negative hero of the cast, a contrast to Sonic X Sonic who was almost never undermined or challenged personally. This extreme also had affect on the supporting cast due to only getting the receiving end of either, reduced to always being the somewhat undeveloped straight men, or a reasonable cast of complex but forever outshone and ineffective characters.

That's kinda why I appreciate Lost World, it at least TRIED to give Sonic a true character based parable moment like SatAm, but it remained it's own story. There's still only so many times Sonic acts that way in the games. Other times he can be a more positive depiction like X Sonic. The variation in stories keeps him rounded rather than just sticking to one same extreme ALL THE TIME.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I mean we've gotten to a point where nobody really knows what they want anymore.

But I didn't really have an issue with Sonic in Forces. Its everything else that's really bad.

 

Which is funny because I don't get how people love Sonic in SA1 and then say he's terrible in Forces. But I suppose the latter is because Sonic is dissonant with the tone of the game. 

Forces is this dark ass gritty game about war and shit, and here you have Sonic cracking jokes about body odor.  Its jarring, but that's another symptom of how tone deaf that game was; didn't know what it wanted to be.

This Forces talk just makes me think about the number of ways certain scenes could be fixed to really sell the war, at least far better than what was given to us.

Honestly, one scene where I think the humor and darker implications could have worked if it had been better handled was the scene where Sonic breaks out after it’s been revealed that he’s Been imprisoned and possibly tortured for 6 months.

Now I know people mock that bit at the end, but imagine that instead of Sonic just being imprisoned and still the same, he instead has Phantom Zavok visit him for a daily torment in an attempt to break his spirit (I operate under the mindset that the Phantoms have Infinite’s personality bleed into the characters he’s using as minions). We see Sonic, and he looks slightly evacuated from hunger, his face and body are bruised and battered, and he’s got bags under his eyes from exhaustion. But he still delivers the same joke in the canon game, just with the delivery being more strained and pained to show just how worn down he is.

Then the breakout and boss battle ensues, and Sonic does take the time to deactivate the other cells to allow the prisoners to escape, while also unintentionally allowing for the break out to act as a distraction. His escape level goes as usual, except maybe with some comments about him running on fumes but trying to persevere, and maybe the screen goes blurry every now and then to show his exhaustion affecting him.

He gets to the end and meets up with the Avatar/Tails, to which he notes about the escaped prisoners and that they need help as well, asking about Tails and the others, before exhaustion finally takes over, something like this:

Sonic: Say, did you get hit by that Infinite guy? Cause I’m seeing two of you and I can’t feel my legs. I’m gonna rest for a bit, nighty night....”

And then he finally falls unconscious, requiring the Avatar to lug him back to safety.

he then wakes up in a hospital bed, covered up in bandages with Tails and the Avatar near his bedside. He then makes a few quips and Tails is just about ready to cry but holds it back and ends up giving a brofist instead...

and then Amy barges in, freaks out, and runs over to catch Sonic in a giant hug:

Sonic: Hi Amy-OWOWOWOWOW AMY! HURT! Injured here! Can’t breathe...”

And then there’s a joke about Sonic surviving the enemy only to die by Amy’s loving hands. Then later on when Sonic is up and a bout, he’s also got a giant plate of chili dogs to help regain his strength, since he’s starved and the only thing they had to eat up there was Eggman’s terrible Eggmanland food from Unleashed, or starvation depending on Infinite’s whims.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

On a side note and to keep myself from accidentally derailing the topic, Infinite imo probably could have made for a decent Shigaraki-styled recurring villain if they had bothered to take his backstory and arc in Forces and spread it out over multiple games. Like he’s a big wannabe villain who’s a paper tiger when it comes to opponents equal or stronger than him (ala Shadow), and Eggman sorta takes him on as an apprentice of sorts, where he learns how to be more brutal and cunning and take his own direction. Maybe even incorporate the rest of Jackal squad as a sort of a starting group for him, in that they initially flocked to him for his strength, left and mocked him for his breakdown, gets back into his services after his Change to Infinite, and then gets cold feet upon realizing how much crazier he’s become...or something along that line.

his concept wasn’t a bad one imo, where a loser villain becomes a dangerous threat, but it was just too underdeveloped and really could have stood to be more thought out.

[Kuzu]

42 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

But spiderman ( peter parker )  has had pretty consistent characterization along with growing characterization , and he's been around for like 60+ years, other comic heroes too. This is isn't even to mention other brands that just reboot themselves every once in a while.

Its completely feasible and there are multiple ways to do this and people have been doing this for decades. And if there is ever point where cool changes again, much like the comic book heroes or the reboot branded heroes of the modern day, they can just... shift. If you want your character to last, generally they need to be malleable in some way.

So yeah its actually totally fine and everyone's doing it.

That has nothing to do with the topic?

 

I know what I want. And I think a lot of other people have ideas of what they desire too. Sega is really bad at interpreting that into anything meaningful though

You do realize that one of the biggest criticisms of Peter is how he's constantly kept in the same status quo, culminating in One More Day, which undid a lot of his development.

Its partially why Miles is so well recieved, he's a big change in a stagnant status quo.

 

Sonic isn't really a series that does hard reboots like that. More like every game is meant to be its own self contained story separate from the others. Hard to do characterization that develops from that.

 

Not impossible, just beyond the quality I think the creators are capable of doing....and maintaining.

[Dr. Detective]

3 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I understand the need for positive roles for Sonic. In fact X Sonic (at least during his more charismatic moments) would have been fine IN DOSES. I want a smidgeon of flaws for Sonic to keep him interesting, but I don't want him to become a standard impetuous protagonist who causes more problems than he solves and keeps needing to learn lessons every single story, even when another side character would better befit that treatment. That's why I keep bringing up SatAm/Archie Sonic negatively, because they overdid all the parables and flawed moments for him, either by using the same formula about him being reckless and egotistical over and over or giving him new flaws according to the current story which compromised his redeeming aspects and made him by far the most dysfunctional and negative hero of the cast, a contrast to Sonic X Sonic who was almost never undermined or challenged personally. This extreme also had affect on the supporting cast due to only getting the receiving end of either, reduced to always being the somewhat undeveloped straight men, or a reasonable cast of complex but forever outshone and ineffective characters.

That's kinda why I appreciate Lost World, it at least TRIED to give Sonic a true character based parable moment like SatAm, but it remained it's own story. There's still only so many times Sonic acts that way in the games. Other times he can be a more positive depiction like X Sonic. The variation in stories keeps him rounded rather than just sticking to one same extreme ALL THE TIME.

No push back from me here. I'm on record for absolutely hating the Archie version of Sonic because of just how much of an egotistical bellend he was. I got worried when Flynn was signed on to do the IDW comics because of it. Thankfully Sonic's actually a cool dude in those. Ian even said that he intentionally toned it down for these books on his Bumblekast, which I appreciated a lot. 

[E-122-Psi]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mik-Eggman said:

No push back from me here. I'm on record for absolutely hating the Archie version of Sonic because of just how much of an egotistical bellend he was. I got worried when Flynn was signed on to do the IDW comics because of it. Thankfully Sonic's actually a cool dude in those. Ian even said that he intentionally toned it down for these books on his Bumblekast, which I appreciated a lot. 

I remember Flynn's Sonic being tolerable in the X comics as well, more fallible than the anime's Sonic but still an approachable guy, actually reasonably close to a compromise.

I think it was just the consequence of Flynn trying to do more dramatic emotional stories, which often involved the group lashing out at each other and being rather aggressive in their opinions which, mixed with a broth of multiple writers and depictions, sometimes led to hypocrisy. I have no qualms with characters reading each other the riot act but it could sure get venomous and priggish. Reminds me how much I hate soap operas, most of them have gone through every shock value story leaving no one really likeable enough to stand on a pedestal.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You do realize that one of the biggest criticisms of Peter is how he's constantly kept in the same status quo, culminating in One More Day, which undid a lot of his development.

That's good thing marvel has been doing crazy shit with him for the past decade huh. Even peter parker is malleable . From having someone else inhabit his body , to becoming a billionare.

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Its partially why Miles is so well recieved, he's a big change in a stagnant status quo.

I think that speaks to my point? Miles is a change of pace, what they have been doing with peter for the past decade is a change of pace. And the spider's in general. And part of peters change has been giving him more character development. This isn't to mention...the myriad of other non peter super heroes who have seen development over the years.

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

Sonic isn't really a series that does hard reboots like that. More like every game is meant to be its own self contained story separate from the others. Hard to do characterization that develops from that.

Maybe they should change that

1 hour ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

Not impossible, just beyond the quality I think the creators are capable of doing....and maintaining.

I agree with this 100%

I want all this for sonic and his friends, do I believe sonic team can do it by themselves . Oh no. 3rd parties, maybe. They themselves , no

[DabigRG]

Okay, so I had a bunch of stuff here that suddenly got wiped when I went back to retrieve another post I intended to quote; this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened, for the record. So ONCE AGAIN, I'm summing up this shit as quickly as possible and the people they refer to can answer the respective prompt. 

1. Sonic being ideal vs "human"--It's a videogame. They need to worry about Sonic being Sonic as far as the gameplay & story being well thought out and outlined before that can even be considered. And even then, he's generally been a decent middleground anyway, with 06 and Boom(or more appropriately, Lost World) being about as far in either direction.
2. I agree that the one and done storytelling in the past is part of why the series has a seemingly limited pool. @Diogenes @Wraith   
3. Zavok was cruel and sadistic to begin with, so the Sonic being tortured thing is entirely plausible in theory. It just suffered from the fact that that was a thrown in localization line to premade cutscenes. @SenEDDtor Missile
4. Sonic's main recurring villains thus far are Eggman, Metal, and occasionally Zavok/DeadlySix. @Kuzu the Boloedge
5. Lost World is actually Misters Pontac and Graff's greatest work thus far. It's the only game where they came up with the story, which includes the flawed characterization of Sonic and Tails. The only confirmed things they didn't come up with themselves were the Deadly Six and likely the Lost Hex. If anything, it highlights the notion that they "ran out of time" or otherwise weren't able to properly flesh out and resolve the story. Generations, on the otherhand, is their worst and it was by Sega's outline like their other games.  @Dr. Detective Mik-Eggman
6. Forces knew what it wanted to be alright--it just didn't put in much [cohesive and/or fleshed out] work into it, exposing it as fairly shallow.  @Kuzu the Boloedge
7. Sonic was probably the best thing in Forces's story. @Kuzu the Boloedge

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Maybe they should change that

 

I don't think that's a bad thing though...at least not bad as you're making it seem. 

[Shadowlax]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

 

I don't think that's a bad thing though...at least not bad as you're making it seem. 

I mean nothing we are discussing is inherently bad. We just both think a different way is better. I'm willing to leave it there.

[Sonic Fan J]

19 hours ago, Wraith said:

It's just the kind of thing that's difficult for me to draft a scenario around unless I focus hard on one of the other characters instead. Like it feels like by putting Sonic on such a high pedestal I'm actually robbing him of the attention you give a well rounded character. Can't help but feel like I'm selling him short.

I guess for me it's that as much as I enjoy Sonic himself (at least before the Sonic the Comedian era where his jokes weren't his sole thing) is that I personally consider Sonic's POV the worst to follow. To me he is the 'title' character and driving force of his stories, but actually following his perspective strips him of what makes him so appealing to me; being the larger than life figure that inspires me to give it my all. Sure he's a jerk and egotist and his life style of live doing what he loves and let nothing tie him down is impractical for most people, but I still find that encouraging as well as you can ask yourself how do you get there yourself while living up to Sonic still being a good guy. To me Sonic is a motivational figure more often than not before he is a character I want to learn more about. I'm frequently more interested in his effect on other people than him himself as it strips him of his luster. It's why I enjoy the characters who chase after him as much as I do because they provide that perspective to me and are intricately tied into his story without diminishing him (bar Tails who went from the kid who looked up to his hero to having to serve as his brains and better half, or pretty much being Sally Acorn at her worst).

Feel free of accusing me of hero worshiping Sonic as much as Tails and Amy because it's likely true just due to my relationship with the franchise since 1991 when I turned 6. Sonic left that strong of an impression on me from back then. Then of course there is my whole preference for the Japanese manual stories where even come the first game Sonic was already described as having faced Eggman numerous times on a regular basis with victory always being his painting my view that I don't need to see Sonic struggle so much as giving my best to see Sonic do what he does. Admittedly not a good narrative position but Sonic is for all extents and purposes a children's book character and as much as I can enjoy his more shounen manga takes I still prefer the whimsy with stakes that he used to have. There's a reason Sonic CD is still my favorite Sonic (or any) game ever even if it means that I'm stuck in the past. But frankly what's wrong with that? If the past makes me happy shouldn't I embrace it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?

19 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

If the focus is meant to be on new locations and the people in them, then you don't really need Tails and Amy to tell that story, especially since it can make them feel superfluous and therefore unneeded. It just sounds to me like you have some bias towards Tails and Amy and have some preference towards them regardless if they fit or not

I was pretty sure I've made it quite obvious already that I'm biased towards them with them both being some of my favorites (at least when Tails isn't being Sonic's brains and better half). If not I apologize. As to the other point it's more so that if you need to have more members form the extended cast Tails and Amy always makes the most sense to me to show up because they follow Sonic. I agree they don't need to be there but if you need to fill out the cast they work better without having to warp the story being told to squeeze in anyone else. That or you can go the cheerleader route and say all of the other characters are Sonic's cheerleading squad who always follow him everywhere just to cheer him on and watch regardless of their own individuality. Considering how most complaints against that set up go I doubt either of us want to entertain continuing to follow that path.

19 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

If you're focus is on them admiring and looking up to other characters, why does it always have to be Sonic? Are they not allowed to look up to anyone else? 

Not other characters, just Sonic. 

I know I'm going to word this badly and almost wonder why I'm trying to explain it since I doubt I'll succeed so you have my apologies for that but regardless let me at least give it a shot. Sonic is the star who the audience follows, but for his target demographic he is larger than life and hard to explain beyond just being awesome. Tails and Amy are characters who follow him and for the most part exhibit his traits but are themselves not as unobtainable. They are trying their best to keep up and follow after and allow for the audience to actually relate. If they have a down side it is their belief and idolization of Sonic will never show the negatives of Sonic himself though his lifestyle can definitely be shown to be problematic with the effort it should take them to achieve it which perhaps makes them more sympathetic to me.

So sure you could have them look up to other characters if it helps develop them and have them grow closer to their goals, but as long as this is a static story about Sonic it won't mean anything since they'll snap back to their original status quo anyway. That isn't to say it shouldn't be pursued, but in the series' current form it would be squandered which is a shame.

20 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

It just feels like you hold some double standard on the rest of the cast; Knuckles and Shadow shouldn't be relevant because their stories are "done", but Tails and Amy can keep appearing even though they've gone through stories themselves. 

Knuckles and Shadow aren't relative because they don't currently have any stories, have no affect on most plots, and don't even really challenge anyone or anything (bar Shadow and Infinite which was also wasted unfortunately) with a status quo of isolation in an isolated location and we need more edge so drop him in. When SEGA are willing to give them relevancy they'll have it, but as is they are just eye candy for their fans and barely even gameplay fodder if not for Mania and Forces. Tails and Amy on the other hand have the status quo of follow Sonic everywhere and anywhere so whether they bring anything to the story or not their presence makes sense just due to their status quo.

Sure my preference for them can be called a double standard and a contradiction, but there is a logic behind narratively speaking. If you're going to distill everything down to the status quo as SEGA has a tendency of doing then they just plain work better despite the limitations as their presence won't leave the story feeling incomplete with SEGA's tendency of not even using or totally botching a single sentence to actually make anyone else part of the story.

20 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The type of storytelling you want for the series just feels extremely limiting and boring to be honest, which is my main gripe with the games right now.

No biggie. You and I see things differently and are entertained in different ways so this is just natural. Funny thing is though, I found Forces fun to play (I really don't know why considering how broken it is) but utterly boring narratively despite having everyone there. There was no sense of adventure, discovery, seeing new places, and just generally fun and whimsy that I expect from the series. the only thing the story got right were the stakes but stakes alone do not make a story and to me if you are just going to go that simple then exploit that simplicity and make it the best it can be while being that simple.

20 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

At least try to entertain that there other characters besides Sonic that exist and contribute to the series that don't always look up to him. Sometimes they're against him and make him question things, which drives conflict and therefore makes for an engaging story.

As opposed to Sonic just always being right and nobody ever questioning him ever because he's just that amazing.

The amount of times I've argued for how to better use Knuckles and tie him into the story while also putting him at odds with Sonic without having him duped by Eggman not to mention the sheer amount of times I've put together long run on ideas about how I would use everyone implies at least that I'm more than willing to use other characters. Heck, I like Infinite and would like to see more of him and have entertained many a scenario where I would use him myself (at least as a mercenary) and frequently find myself at odds for my desires to see everyone used well in contrast to my desires to see Sonic doing what I love to see him doing. It's probably part of what draws me to Tails and Amy as well is that like myself they enjoy seeing Sonic do what he does. But at the same time I also have to weigh Sonic as a serial or Sonic as an anthology and most times Sonic as an anthology wins out just because of how the series is handled making all of the other characters who don't have new stories or a status quo that ignores an anthology set up irrelevant. It sucks to since I think Sonic can work great as a serial as more than enough depth to his character even before challenging it to support a serial not to mention the spectacularly diverse world that Sonic inhabits. Fortunately for me though I'm good with Sonic as an anthology series with a static lead and can thus enjoy the type of stories that just use a small recurring cast with an otherwise new cast per story.

20 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The latter type of story only really works when Sonic isn't the main focus at all, otherwise I can't imagine how such a story can be remotely engaging.

As I said above to @Wraith I prefer Sonic being the focus of the story but not seeing it from his point of view and that is at least how I see those types of stories working and I've enjoyed many a story where the title character isn't the POV character. Of course I'm also a fan of Japanese storytelling that everyone else calls boring as it is though so I guess that already puts a divide between what I like and everyone else does and why I can see good things in what others call boring. The only thing that really sucks about it though is that the merits of what I like are subjective and thus since almost no one I speak to has similar views it leaves me unable to ever engage in the strengths and advantages of those merits and only the failures and problems of what are otherwise seen as weaknesses.

-----

So just to wrap up my thoughts on the whole character development angle I'll state that for as well as Sonic can (and has) work as a serial story, I personally prefer Sonic as anthology stories with a basic underlying and flexible lore. I feel it plays well to the limitations of a static lead and cast and allows for any number of stories to be told without having to deal with long term consequences and the failures of them affecting a static lead. I also find that it fits well with allowing Sonic to be constantly reinvented every game and pushing aside what hasn't worked with what has leaving strong impressions and being fond memories while providing blue prints to help structure future stories well. I get the desire for a serial story and think Sonic can do them and should if the effort and willingness is there. Without it though I'll gladly and rather take anthology stories that plays to the strengths of a static lead than stick a static lead in a serial that requires him to not be static.

[DabigRG]

You know, speaking of Sonic being a celebrated hero....

[Kuzu]

8 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

I guess for me it's that as much as I enjoy Sonic himself (at least before the Sonic the Comedian era where his jokes weren't his sole thing) is that I personally consider Sonic's POV the worst to follow. To me he is the 'title' character and driving force of his stories, but actually following his perspective strips him of what makes him so appealing to me; being the larger than life figure that inspires me to give it my all. Sure he's a jerk and egotist and his life style of live doing what he loves and let nothing tie him down is impractical for most people, but I still find that encouraging as well as you can ask yourself how do you get there yourself while living up to Sonic still being a good guy. To me Sonic is a motivational figure more often than not before he is a character I want to learn more about. I'm frequently more interested in his effect on other people than him himself as it strips him of his luster. It's why I enjoy the characters who chase after him as much as I do because they provide that perspective to me and are intricately tied into his story without diminishing him (bar Tails who went from the kid who looked up to his hero to having to serve as his brains and better half, or pretty much being Sally Acorn at her worst).

Feel free of accusing me of hero worshiping Sonic as much as Tails and Amy because it's likely true just due to my relationship with the franchise since 1991 when I turned 6. Sonic left that strong of an impression on me from back then. Then of course there is my whole preference for the Japanese manual stories where even come the first game Sonic was already described as having faced Eggman numerous times on a regular basis with victory always being his painting my view that I don't need to see Sonic struggle so much as giving my best to see Sonic do what he does. Admittedly not a good narrative position but Sonic is for all extents and purposes a children's book character and as much as I can enjoy his more shounen manga takes I still prefer the whimsy with stakes that he used to have. There's a reason Sonic CD is still my favorite Sonic (or any) game ever even if it means that I'm stuck in the past. But frankly what's wrong with that? If the past makes me happy shouldn't I embrace it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?

I was pretty sure I've made it quite obvious already that I'm biased towards them with them both being some of my favorites (at least when Tails isn't being Sonic's brains and better half). If not I apologize. As to the other point it's more so that if you need to have more members form the extended cast Tails and Amy always makes the most sense to me to show up because they follow Sonic. I agree they don't need to be there but if you need to fill out the cast they work better without having to warp the story being told to squeeze in anyone else. That or you can go the cheerleader route and say all of the other characters are Sonic's cheerleading squad who always follow him everywhere just to cheer him on and watch regardless of their own individuality. Considering how most complaints against that set up go I doubt either of us want to entertain continuing to follow that path.

Not other characters, just Sonic. 

I know I'm going to word this badly and almost wonder why I'm trying to explain it since I doubt I'll succeed so you have my apologies for that but regardless let me at least give it a shot. Sonic is the star who the audience follows, but for his target demographic he is larger than life and hard to explain beyond just being awesome. Tails and Amy are characters who follow him and for the most part exhibit his traits but are themselves not as unobtainable. They are trying their best to keep up and follow after and allow for the audience to actually relate. If they have a down side it is their belief and idolization of Sonic will never show the negatives of Sonic himself though his lifestyle can definitely be shown to be problematic with the effort it should take them to achieve it which perhaps makes them more sympathetic to me.

So sure you could have them look up to other characters if it helps develop them and have them grow closer to their goals, but as long as this is a static story about Sonic it won't mean anything since they'll snap back to their original status quo anyway. That isn't to say it shouldn't be pursued, but in the series' current form it would be squandered which is a shame.

Knuckles and Shadow aren't relative because they don't currently have any stories, have no affect on most plots, and don't even really challenge anyone or anything (bar Shadow and Infinite which was also wasted unfortunately) with a status quo of isolation in an isolated location and we need more edge so drop him in. When SEGA are willing to give them relevancy they'll have it, but as is they are just eye candy for their fans and barely even gameplay fodder if not for Mania and Forces. Tails and Amy on the other hand have the status quo of follow Sonic everywhere and anywhere so whether they bring anything to the story or not their presence makes sense just due to their status quo.

Sure my preference for them can be called a double standard and a contradiction, but there is a logic behind narratively speaking. If you're going to distill everything down to the status quo as SEGA has a tendency of doing then they just plain work better despite the limitations as their presence won't leave the story feeling incomplete with SEGA's tendency of not even using or totally botching a single sentence to actually make anyone else part of the story.

No biggie. You and I see things differently and are entertained in different ways so this is just natural. Funny thing is though, I found Forces fun to play (I really don't know why considering how broken it is) but utterly boring narratively despite having everyone there. There was no sense of adventure, discovery, seeing new places, and just generally fun and whimsy that I expect from the series. the only thing the story got right were the stakes but stakes alone do not make a story and to me if you are just going to go that simple then exploit that simplicity and make it the best it can be while being that simple.

The amount of times I've argued for how to better use Knuckles and tie him into the story while also putting him at odds with Sonic without having him duped by Eggman not to mention the sheer amount of times I've put together long run on ideas about how I would use everyone implies at least that I'm more than willing to use other characters. Heck, I like Infinite and would like to see more of him and have entertained many a scenario where I would use him myself (at least as a mercenary) and frequently find myself at odds for my desires to see everyone used well in contrast to my desires to see Sonic doing what I love to see him doing. It's probably part of what draws me to Tails and Amy as well is that like myself they enjoy seeing Sonic do what he does. But at the same time I also have to weigh Sonic as a serial or Sonic as an anthology and most times Sonic as an anthology wins out just because of how the series is handled making all of the other characters who don't have new stories or a status quo that ignores an anthology set up irrelevant. It sucks to since I think Sonic can work great as a serial as more than enough depth to his character even before challenging it to support a serial not to mention the spectacularly diverse world that Sonic inhabits. Fortunately for me though I'm good with Sonic as an anthology series with a static lead and can thus enjoy the type of stories that just use a small recurring cast with an otherwise new cast per story.

As I said above to @Wraith I prefer Sonic being the focus of the story but not seeing it from his point of view and that is at least how I see those types of stories working and I've enjoyed many a story where the title character isn't the POV character. Of course I'm also a fan of Japanese storytelling that everyone else calls boring as it is though so I guess that already puts a divide between what I like and everyone else does and why I can see good things in what others call boring. The only thing that really sucks about it though is that the merits of what I like are subjective and thus since almost no one I speak to has similar views it leaves me unable to ever engage in the strengths and advantages of those merits and only the failures and problems of what are otherwise seen as weaknesses.

-----

So just to wrap up my thoughts on the whole character development angle I'll state that for as well as Sonic can (and has) work as a serial story, I personally prefer Sonic as anthology stories with a basic underlying and flexible lore. I feel it plays well to the limitations of a static lead and cast and allows for any number of stories to be told without having to deal with long term consequences and the failures of them affecting a static lead. I also find that it fits well with allowing Sonic to be constantly reinvented every game and pushing aside what hasn't worked with what has leaving strong impressions and being fond memories while providing blue prints to help structure future stories well. I get the desire for a serial story and think Sonic can do them and should if the effort and willingness is there. Without it though I'll gladly and rather take anthology stories that plays to the strengths of a static lead than stick a static lead in a serial that requires him to not be static.

 

Just going to agree to disagree then; Like Wraith said, I feel the type of storytelling you prefer is selling Sonic himself very short as a character, and also very limiting if we're you're just to distill things down to Tails and Amy hero-worshipping him all of the time in terms of the types of stories this series has told in the past. We've had multiple character arcs in the past that didn't become a problem until later and I see no reason why that can't continue.

Yea, accommodating things to an unchanging status quo is fine, but that's what the games are currently doing and I find them dreadfully boring, so I can't really see myself thinking your ideas would be much of an improvement beyond just adding Amy and the series just going on how amazing Sonic is with no irony. If that's what your preference is, fine, I just feel like the series should be more flexible than that to accomodate more people than just yourself.

[Heckboy]

I like the Two Worlds thing. I get why people are annoyed by it and don't really think it's necessary, but it's fine. I like the idea of Sonic just travelling to different planets and dimensions regularly. Sonic's World, Earth, Sol Dimension, etc. Hell, you could probably work Mobius (mentioned in the Japanese Spinball manual) into the game canon this way.

[DabigRG]

15 minutes ago, Heckboy said:

I like the Two Worlds thing. I get why people are annoyed by it and don't really think it's necessary, but it's fine. I like the idea of Sonic just travelling to different planets and dimensions regularly. Sonic's World, Earth, Sol Dimension, etc. Hell, you could probably work Mobius (mentioned in the Japanese Spinball manual) into the game canon this way.

I don't mind it either, overall.

Partly because it's relatively easy to accept given most games before Forces.