Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

The only character that you absolutely need in every game is Sonic, but I can at least understand the general sentiment behind a recurring cast for the sake familiarity. My issues kind of stem that the writing surrounding them does not lend itself to making me want to see them. The writing has seriously taken a dip when they have managed to turn me against Tails, when I originally had no issues with his involvements before. He just isn't written that interesting and it mostly stems from nobody really understanding what to do with the character.

And the same is true for Amy, Knuckles, Shadow, all of them with arguable exception of Eggman. They're all just so bland and unlikable nowadays and most of them are piggybacking off their legacy from over 10 years ago. Take off the nostalgia goggles and you're not really left with much nowadays.  Which is why I'm not as hard on critics when they slam these characters. Fans like them for their potential storytelling based on their past, but what about the people that grew up in the past 10 years? How are you going to sell them on characters like Amy or Knuckles when they're so disconnected from everything nowadays?

 

I know the storytelling from 1999-2009 wasn't exactly stellar, but I at least felt there was a sense of things happening and progressing in every game and that's important when you're trying to entice people on your characters. You want them to care about what's happening and become invested in it. If there's no sense of progression or purpose, your audience is going to get bored quickly and just move on to something else.  

[Wraith]

Since I've been thinking a little bit about this lately: The Sonic Adventure games contain more clever decisions and ideas for how to handle 3D Sonic than most people give them credit for. I kind of wish these engine tests and write ups for 3D Sonic would consider them than they do. They're made by a lot of the people that made Sonic tic back in the day so I think  if you want to make a 3D Sonic they're worth studying whether you like them or not. 

This doesn't mean copying them wholesale. Obviously you should take a critical eye to it, but also have some faith in what the old guard were able to do with the situation they were in, yeah?

[Multikaris]

I also think Sega’s policy with villains is not only a waste of potential, but hypocritical as well. Given how they keep Zavok around regardless of everything else, such as his debut game receiving mixed reviews...

[Kuzu]

38 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Since I've been thinking a little bit about this lately: The Sonic Adventure games contain more clever decisions and ideas for how to handle 3D Sonic than most people give them credit for. I kind of wish these engine tests and write ups for 3D Sonic would consider them than they do. They're made by a lot of the people that made Sonic tic back in the day so I think  if you want to make a 3D Sonic they're worth studying whether you like them or not. 

This doesn't mean copying them wholesale. Obviously you should take a critical eye to it, but also have some faith in what the old guard were able to do with the situation they were in, yeah?

There's a reason people want to see them remade so badly, and it goes beyond just nostalgia. There are a lot of clever design decisions in them that at least accommodate the transition from Classic to 3D, and it makes more sense than just trying to make a 1:1 transition of Classic gameplay or just making the games a racing simulator. 

Obviously there should be better implemented ideas, but I always felt the Adventure games provided a solid baseline of quality for 3D games that was unfortunately abandoned  because of the reception of a game from over a decade ago. 

[DabigRG]

5 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

They tried a non-Eggman game with Black Knight (and arguably even earlier with Tails' Skypatrol). I think the key problem is that a lot of the alternative baddies in the games are rather one dimensional and sometimes barely even sapient, just big monstrosities of evil. It made sense to have Eggman pad most of the game in cases like SA1 since the other baddie couldn't offer the same compelling rivalry and storyline on their own. Even in Black Knight they pull out a twist with two baddies since neither are QUITE fully realised enough to hold the story on their own.

I suppose that makes a fair amount of sense.

I'll be honest, I can't recall much of anything about the Black Knight himself.

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Being two dimensional is fine as long as they're not just keel hauled.

 

People dislike Mephiles (they're wrong) but he didn't need to want to merge back with Iblis, he could've just been after the Chaos Emeralds and be a force of chaotic evil. Not wanting to destroy reality because that's lameness.

This along with not every game needing to end with some grand epic climax fighting gods and stuff.

Oh, definitely.

Personally, Mephiles is the only 3D villain besides [debatably] the Zeti who I immediately feel could've been better served as being able to recur.

.

2 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

I also think Sega’s policy with villains is not only a waste of potential, but hypocritical as well. Given how they keep Zavok around regardless of everything else, such as his debut game receiving mixed reviews...

I'm pretty sure after so many years that the varying reasons they don't use any of the other villains besides Eggman & Metal(who are the Archenemy and Classics), the Shapebots(who are assistants to Eggman), and Dr. NEGA(who is a descendant of Eggman and hasn't appeared in a proper game since Rivals 2) are:

• They are made as part of oneshot stories that distinctly epic, dramatic, and conclusive
• They are generally [over?]developed to the point of having little else to give
• They tend to be overtly evil, overpowered, or both
• They often don't fit the ongoing Sonic series or even belong in the same planes of existence 

Ultimately, they simply aren't reusable or more aptly manageable most of the time and thus they keep reforming them or killing them off.

By contrast, Zavok and the Band of Six Zeti were seemingly designed and [under-(?)]written intentionally with the prospect of being recurring characters in mind. Plus, it's also possible that they(or at least Zavok and Zazz) are lucky enough to be things in a time where there are a number of weird spinoffs that they can fill a slot in.

[DabigRG]

Delete

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

I suppose that makes a fair amount of sense.

I'll be honest, I can't recall much of anything about the Black Knight himself.

Oh, definitely.

Personally, Mephiles is the only 3D villain besides [debatably] the Zeti who I immediately feel could've been better served as being able to recur.

.

I'm pretty sure after so many years that the varying reasons they don't use any of the other villains besides Eggman & Metal(who are the Archenemy and Classics), the Shapebots(who are assistants to Eggman), and Dr. NEGA(who is a descendant of Eggman and hasn't appeared in a proper game since Rivals 2) are:

• They are made as part of oneshot stories that distinctly epic, dramatic, and conclusive
• They are generally [over?]developed to the point of having little else to give
• They tend to be overtly evil, overpowered, or both
• They often don't fit the ongoing Sonic series or even belong in the same planes of existence 

Ultimately, they simply aren't reusable or more aptly manageable most of the time and thus they keep reforming them or killing them off.

By contrast, Zavok and the Band of Six Zeti were seemingly designed and [under-(?)]written intentionally with the prospect of being recurring characters in mind. Plus, it's also possible that they(or at least Zavok and Zazz) are lucky enough to be things in a time where there are a number of weird spinoffs that they can fill a slot in.

Well, there are some aspects about their debut appearances that lean them more into the territory of Black Doom; like them draining the energy of the planet beneath, and them vanishing in a puff of smoke/ some even sinking into lava. I guess the developers couldn’t handle adding a new recurring villain, and were too used to Erazor and the like. One may also note that only Zavok and Zazz have really returned, and even then, only Zavok if we talk the main series. Yeah, their situation at Sega is very interesting indeed.

[DabigRG]

47 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Well, there are some aspects about their debut appearances that lean them more into the territory of Black Doom; like them draining the energy of the planet beneath, and them vanishing in a puff of smoke/ some even sinking into lava.

True, namely in Zavok's case, funnily enough.

I guess when you get down to it, they are just a bunch of weird assholes who leave the smog generator that was left behind on because the machine made sports drinks--the real source of the danger is something Eggman made, which meant it was reversible and/or negligible in the longrun.

Another vibe I get from a design standpoint is how they seem written to be similar to Eggman himself. Or rather Classic-era villains rather than the Dreamcast and early Modern ones.

47 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

 I guess the developers couldn’t handle adding a new recurring villain, and were too used to Erazor and the like.

Seems to be the case.

Hell, Infinite leaped right in at 11.

47 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

One may also note that only Zavok and Zazz have really returned, and even then, only Zavok if we talk the main series. Yeah, their situation at Sega is very interesting indeed.

I'm guessing that's partly because, in addition to the stuff I mentioned, they haven't really had a chance to trot the entire group out for a proper romp again thus far. The following games were the Rio Olympics, Runners, Forces, and Speed Battle--none of which were open enough to feature all of them, much less in an overly significant quantity. 

Those two got priority because they are the leader and effective mascot, respective. Though Master Zik was apparently in Runners for a few cutscenes, based on the last time I visited the wiki.

 

[Miles Storzillo]

8 hours ago, StaticMania said:

People dislike Black Doom (they're wrong) 

People dislike Mephiles (they're wrong)

...  Fuck you, you're wrong if you think RoL is bad and Mania is good.

(If you couldn't detect sarcasm from the phrase beyond fuck you, I don't know what to say)

[StaticMania]

Confusion is had.

I get it.

[Muscles Maximum]

I really love the treasure hunting in SA1 & 2 and the mission based gameplay the Chaotix had in Heroes. Everyone hates them but I always had a lot of fun with them.

In particular SA1 and Heroes because of the shared levels between the characters. You tend to play with Sonic or others first and that makes you become familiar with the layout of the stages and it lets me appreciate exploring these levels I really just blasted through before. This also helps give the stages some purpose beyond just get from point A to point B.

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Strong Guy said:

This also helps give the stages some purpose beyond just get from point A to point B.

No it doesn't.

Sharing stages is neat if they're only aesthetically the same, not if they're the same exact stage.

Big, Amy, and E-101 Gamma get this. SA2 does it better.

[Miles Storzillo]

There's something I've been thinking about ever since Team Eggman has been shown for STR

What is with Sega using Zavok so much?  Contrary to popular belief, I do like Lost World, but didn't it get mixed reception?  Yet Zavok has appeared in Runners along with Zazz, one of the Mario & Sonic Olympics,  once again joined by Zazz, Forces (I know he was an illusion, but still), and now STR.  I won't be surprised if he just becomes a reoccurring villain at this point, though then again he already has.

[DabigRG]

19 minutes ago, Miles Storzillo said:

There's something I've been thinking about ever since Team Eggman has been shown for STR

What is with Sega using Zavok so much?  Contrary to popular belief, I do like Lost World, but didn't it get mixed reception?  Yet Zavok has appeared in Runners along with Zazz, one of the Mario & Sonic Olympics,  once again joined by Zazz, Forces (I know he was an illusion, but still), and now STR.  I won't be surprised if he just becomes a reoccurring villain at this point, though then again he already has.

Oh okay, you're responding to me and Miragem's little aside.!

Anyway, I remember getting the impression the day the first Lost World trailer that the Deadly Six were gonna become recurring villains just by looking at them and in hindsight how they were presented. And given characters like Big, the Babylon Rogues, Silver, and Dr. NEGA had already continued to make appearances beforehand, a game and/or characters getting some negative reception isn't much of a deterrant.

One could also say that almost all of his subsequent appearances were either already in the works or were done out of convenience.

[Guergy]

I suppose you are right but I wonder if they changed their minds on certain things. 

[Nicky Nicardo]

I guess this is an unpopular opinion based on what I've seen on this site and certain other places on the internet... but an objectively mediocre game selling well does not equal a failure. It doesn't equal a dumpster fire. It isn't the second coming of 06. And personally, it always baffles me when I see people talking about Forces as if it's just pure trash objectively speaking (and by objectively speaking, I mean based on the general consensus of professional critics). Not personal opinions, but the cold hard facts about the game - it's a mediocre game that, while a disappointment compared to Mania, still sold 'well enough' according to Sega/Sonic Team. That's just not the same as being a massive, dramatic failure of epic proportions.

[DabigRG]

On 4/11/2019 at 4:09 AM, Guergy said:

I suppose you are right but I wonder if they changed their minds on certain things. 

...Who are you responding to?

[Diogenes]

2 hours ago, Nicky Nicardo said:

I guess this is an unpopular opinion based on what I've seen on this site and certain other places on the internet... but an objectively mediocre game selling well does not equal a failure. It doesn't equal a dumpster fire. It isn't the second coming of 06. And personally, it always baffles me when I see people talking about Forces as if it's just pure trash objectively speaking (and by objectively speaking, I mean based on the general consensus of professional critics). Not personal opinions, but the cold hard facts about the game - it's a mediocre game that, while a disappointment compared to Mania, still sold 'well enough' according to Sega/Sonic Team. That's just not the same as being a massive, dramatic failure of epic proportions.

You do realize that critics aren't the sole arbiters of objective game ranking, right? And even if you want to defer to critics, Forces isn't rated all that much higher than '06; going by Metacritic it's comparing a 50-something to a 40-something, which is even closer than it sounds considering how skewed game scores tend to be.

[Splash the Otter]

Most of the jokes and memes relating to Sonic aren't even that funny.

[DabigRG]

I'm glad Team Sonic Racing is a console game that's also not a mainline game or something worth taking too seriously regardless.

And here's why!:

(I must've spent 30 minutes writing this in the Upcoming Games section, so I'm gonna make other people read it. You'll read it and you'll like it!)

Quote

13 hours ago, Roger_van_der_weide said:

Was just confused why light-hearted self aware humor is suddenly a "breath of fresh air" despite that being the status quo for a decade now.
I've seen sentiments like that before, sorry if I came across I'm picking on Jezz.
People suddely acted we're fresh from another dark age is confusing to me.
I suppose I should blame the movie for that.
(Despite the movie also looking to be a light hearted comedy, minus Sonic's nightmare face)


So no, I don't want a Sonic Forces style story in a racing game...Well, actually I do because that would be hilarious, but I concede most people wouldn't see it that way.


So in short, Team Sonic racing probably has the exact style of story and tone that would be natural and is expected for that kind of game.
My statement was not meant as a critique of the game, just a confused observation.


And outside of Team Racing, I'm really hoping the tone of future Sonic games are going to shift in a diffrent direction. (No, not Sonic forces direction) because the low energy lazy self aware stuff is getting to me after a decade of the same stuff over and over.
The fact that the occasional break we get, Rise of Lyric, Forces and the movie, are unfocused low-energy dullfests isn't helping either.
(Especially considering 2 out of 3 are STILL smacking you on the head with bad jokes.)
Tyson Hesse's work is a step in the preferred direction, actually remembering to inject some energy in the precedings.
Use that style to create an actual adventure and we're on our way. Or the IDW comics.

...And hey, considering Hesse's Team Sonic racing cartoons, perhaps his style will have a presence in the game. I doubt it, but who knows.



And agreed with Mike, it's not that stories like Sonic Riders or adventure or whatever are brilliant and have no plotholes, it's because they have energy, a sense of adventure.
It's a journey. There's a flow to it, we're going somewhere. I vastly prefer that, plotholes and all, over endless sterile scenes of characters standing around exchanging "smart" self aware statements. Or super serious exposition ala Forces, whatever.
It's not about plot perfection, it's about emotional drive. To be invested. To care. I haven't cared for any Sonic character in over a decade.
Worst case scenerio, something like Sonic Riders is funny because it's stupid and ambitious. the modern stuff is boring because it's smart and lazy.
Sorry, but i'm on team stupid. The stupid know how to party.


That all said, Team Sonic racing's gameplay still looks good, so still looking forward to the game part of the game.
Because I'm legally required to add a "Lol you must onyl care about gameplay lol" statement in every story discussion.

 

7 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

There's a simple, one word explanation for that:  timing.

Remember that when Colors came out, Sonic was something people talked about for being bad and full of itself. People commonly bring up Shadow packing heat, Sonic's   being kissed by a human, Sonic turning Werewolf as things to make fun of and the fact that two of those games were generally considered bad and controversial didn't help.  Ever since Shadow was added to the series, there was a mostly consistent drive to make things even darker, edgier, and more epic than the last and it just got ridiculous in conjunction with a drop in quality.

To break out of that trend, they changed how the series carried itself again in 2010. SonicTeam had a willingness to joke about how the series generally goes and even poke fun at some the sillier things they've done. Things got better with Colors and arguably Unleashed for two reasons: the tone became lighthearted again and SEGA started to focus on solid gameplay again. And it was refreshing, even humbling at the time and the series picked up momentum.

But as some ya'll love to say nowadays, things took another downturn after Generations. Lost World was generally polarizing and accused of cribbing, the Sonic Boom subseries got meddled with and became known for either the disastrous Wii U game or the TV show that was generally satirical, and after a four year hiatus, Forces came out. The latter speaks somewhat clearly as something of a ill conceived attempt to appeal to those who want things to be how they were in the Dreamcast era while and insufficiently downplaying some of hallmarks people were getting tired of from the Modern--mostly failing to really do either on top of being it's own well made thing. 

What went wrong to cause this both of these trends: Oversaturation. They had a big success and got acclaim from people from a particular element or two and thus tried almost constantly to replicate those same feelings across many following games. Unfortunately, a combination of missing the poin and doing the same thing over & over caused people to get tired and a drop of quality to the games themselves made people turn on them. This is notable in the Modern era's case because it was primarily conceived to absolve those complaints. This was in conjunction with SEGAs attempt to launch a subseries that mostly failed outside the TVshow, which itself partly channeled some of the stuff people were getting tired of. And I don't wanna repeat what a desperate, half-hearted "course correction" Forces was. 

It really didn't help that, unlike the Dreamcast and early Modern era, we didn't many spinoffs and side games to tide us over and vary things up in between. That hiatus I mentioned before was made of nothing more than a few Boom things and a bunch of phone games. Sonic Runners was a fun little episode venture that, much like Generations, celebrated the game franchise in general. That was really nice, but unforunately it was just a phone game and thus many of us didn't/couldn't appreciate it too much. Thus, we were mostly stuck with mainline games that were constantly treated as having something to prove.

So yes, Team Sonic Racing is indeed a breath of fresh air. A low stakes side project that just encourages to have fun playing a dumb video game on an actual console again. And that's okay.

 

 

[Guergy]

On 4/22/2019 at 5:44 PM, DabigRG said:

...Who are you responding to?

Oh crud. I think it was suppose to respond to someone on another thread. 

[DabigRG]

"Chao" bothers me more as a choice than Zavok.

On 5/9/2019 at 9:19 PM, Guergy said:

Oh crud. I think it was suppose to respond to someone on another thread. 

It's cool. Either hitting the quote button at the bottom of a post is usually enough.

[BaronGrackle]

Velocity. Ferocity. Atrocity. Reciprocity. Hydrocity.

There is no space. It is one word. And that is how you pronounce it.

[Muscles Maximum]

That's always how I pronounced it too, like velocity.

Also, Hydrocity is the best water level in the series. Maybe in all of platformers.

[Iko]

Opinion: If they want to continue with this team gimmick, they should definitely find a way to include everyone from the recurring cast.

- I think that Team Rose should get a new third member who's not a chao/omochao. I think they should group her with some character that actually makes sense, it shouldn't be a meme team. If none of the existing characters fit the role (not even Cream, I think she works better as her own thing than paired with Amy), just introduce someone new, or even put the default avatar from Forces into her team, with a wispon that makes him fly to compensate the lack of a fly type (or use a female avatar if Team Rose needs to be more "girly"). - Technique/Fly type missing.

- I think they should definitely find a third member for a Blaze-Silver team. Vector makes no sense, he is already the most iconic character of Team Chaotix, and Team Chaotix better to stay as it has always been. - Power type missing

- I think they should bring Gmerl/Gemerl back and find a third member for a team of Cream-Gmerl. I'm not reading the IDW comics, but I looked at that artwork where they fight side to side and I think it it's cool and it can work in mainline games too... (it would also make sense considering the Gizoid's role in Sonic Battle/Advance 3). I think that the badass look of Gmerl balances the cutesy of Cream very well, and the other way as well. As always, I have no idea of who could be a third member for this team, but it's possible that none of the existing characters fit, so maybe introduce someone new here too. - Power type missing, or speed depending on if they consider Gmerl a power or a speed type.

If the last two teams can't work, just make Silver a power type (he can lift cars and trucks!) and put Cream in Blaze-Silver's team instead (there is at least some relation between Cream and Blaze due to Sonic Rush's story), but it would be a missed opportunity to not bring Gmerl back, at least IMO.

-------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note, do you remember when Sega made a poll on Twitter asking for our favorite feature in Sonic games? There were some random features such as time attack, but the bigger competition was between Chao Garden and the Avatar (with the Chao Garden winning by far).

I'm convinced that they made that poll to decide what character to put in Team Rose in TSR, Chao Garden won the poll so they put the chao in a car, but I think they cosidered the Avatar too.

I think the avatar would fit very well in Team Rose because Amy played a big role in the resistence and the Avatar got all the spotlight in the game, so there is a connection somehow. I don't really know what to think of Big the Cat honestly (Without Cream the Totoro reference is gone, and he looks out of place IMO), but if you remove him from Team Rose, where would you put him then? Maybe in team with a modern version of Mighty and Ray? (but Mighty is already a power type and Big is definitely not fast).