Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

10 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

The Classics were also influenced by Shounen,  or more accurately Kodomo which for those who don't know target those that target kids below the age of 12 while Shounen targets 12-18. 

The current most influential Kodomo magazine even Had the Dash and Spin Sonic Manga which created amy  , and it currently publishes The Manga of Nintendo franchises(Mario Pokemon Animal Crossing) and Yokai Watch and Doraemon 

This is true. And in general what i used was probably a lazy description because there are in fact many things common to both early and throughout sonic's history. I think people use that description because the tone in SA2 is obviously darker in a way that goes beyond just the basic plot itself, it leaks into the rest of the game's design choices. It does so in a way that feels much different than anything that came before it, despite the fact that one can pick out individual choices that SA2 has done and find them across the series history. Even the "darker" tone with SA2 had been done before, particularly with Sonic CD. But SA2 combined these elements in a completely different way than its predecessors and as a result just felt like a different take on the same character, not just a "darker" sonic. Not a different series altogether, but a different strand and different vibe. And the fanbase is a direct reflection of it. Having witnessed the history of this franchise, I'd say SA2 is unquestionably the most divisive game and theres really not even a close second.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

I said that it is responsible for many of the obvious differences.

It might just be trying to up the ante from Adventure 1, but it did so in ways that help distinguish at least those two enough that people can pick what they prefer between them.

That's starting to get away from X's point, but you know.  

Well going from water Godzilla to Mewtwo meets Star Wars is one obvious difference. But exactly what differences would you be referring to?

 

 

[ComeAsYouAre]

1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

This is true. And in general what i used was probably a lazy description because there are in fact many things common to both early and throughout sonic's history. I think people use that description because the tone in SA2 is obviously darker in a way that goes beyond just the basic plot itself, it leaks into the rest of the game's design choices. It does so in a way that feels much different than anything that came before it, despite the fact that one can pick out individual choices that SA2 has done and find them across the series history. Even the "darker" tone with SA2 had been done before, particularly with Sonic CD. But SA2 combined these elements in a completely different way than its predecessors and as a result just felt like a different take on the same character, not just a "darker" sonic. Not a different series altogether, but a different strand and different vibe. And the fanbase is a direct reflection of it. Having witnessed the history of this franchise, I'd say SA2 is unquestionably the most divisive game and theres really not even a close second.

Yeah SA2 did change the franchise's direction I won't deny that , but its divisiveness mostly comes from later games who used its elements pretty poorly

 

[DabigRG]

6 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Well going from water Godzilla to Mewtwo meets Star Wars is one obvious difference. But exactly what differences would you be referring to?

 

 

It took me a minute to realize what the fuck you were talking about there.

But I suppose that's a good start, given one is Shadow. Basically, Adventure maintains the corny elements of the characters doing their thing, upbeat locales, and bad guys misusing nature/myths, while Adventure 2 introduces huge world threatening forces, big action setpieces, and gritty histories.

3 minutes ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

Yeah SA2 did change the franchise's direction I won't deny that , but its divisiveness mostly comes from later games who used its elements pretty poorly

 

Essentially.

[Mountaindewandsprite]

Unpopular: Classic and modern timelines now being "separate universes/dimensions" makes a tad bit of sense, and I say that cautiously, only if chaos emeralds are involved (we haven't seen those in a while). With their infinite power, they should be capable of allowing interdimensional travel. Also, aren't the special stages in the Classic era different dimensions anyway? If so, dimension hopping should be nothing new.

[Sonictrainer]

7 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Pumpkin Hill to Mushroom Hill;

This is the only weak comparison when comparing Zones between S3&K & SA2B.

The only similarities between these 2 is that they're both mountains that Knuckles can travel thru.

Mushroom Hill is a fresh take on the Green Hill Zone theme with a seasonal change in its rice patterned hills and Pumpkin Hill is one of the first haunted themed levels introduced in the entire series.

[StaticMania]

8 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

Mushroom Hill is a fresh take on the Green Hill Zone theme...

Yeah...it's pretty weird how the grass is the Checkerboard part.

[Tarnish]

8 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

The "you can swap them out for something else and it'd be the same" never actually works as an argument, especially for spinoff games.

It definitely works in the sense that the characters themselves don't add anything at all to the game except banter. Literally words are their only contribution to the game. The rest is due to the setting of the game. You could have the cars have no drivers, say they are radio controlled cars and mechanically, the game would function exactly the same and it wouldn't look out of place. That's the point I'm trying to make here.

 

8 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

"Why make something I don't want when they could make something I do want instead."

So you already decided you don't want something like that, even if it could be a revolutionary concept, something that nobody ever made before? Cool. That definitely encourages SEGA to just use the same stale ideas for the rest of their days.

8 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

Also, Sonic being in a car is not something that's alien to the franchise when both Sonic Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog exist, but that's a totally different argument.

And they made no sense even back then, so that's kind of a moot point.

[StaticMania]

They use cars because why would Sonic, Shadow, and Metal Sonic slow down enough to be reasonable for everyone else?

It should also be noted how much the characters already controlled like cars in Sonic R anyway.

[DabigRG]

10 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Unpopular: Classic and modern timelines now being "separate universes/dimensions" makes a tad bit of sense, and I say that cautiously, only if chaos emeralds are involved (we haven't seen those in a while). With their infinite power, they should be capable of allowing interdimensional travel. Also, aren't the special stages in the Classic era different dimensions anyway? If so, dimension hopping should be nothing new.

Also because of splitting timeline theory.

10 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

 

Mushroom Hill is a fresh take on the Green Hill Zone theme with a seasonal change in its rice patterned hills and Pumpkin Hill is one of the first haunted themed levels introduced in the entire series.

 

10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Yeah...it's pretty weird how the grass is the Checkerboard part.

Huh. You know, I never thought about that.

[Kuzu]

17 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

I want to focus on this part, because I still don’t find that to be the case even back when this whole idea started becoming a thing. I’d say one reason why it doesn’t get recognized enough is probably because if you were to really compare them, they’re a lot more similar than folks think. 

In a lot of ways, SA2 mirrors S3&K in aesthetics much in the way SA1 does. Space Colony ARK stages to the Death Egg; Sandopolis to Death Chamber or Hidden Base; Pumpkin Hill to Mushroom Hill; Green Jungle/White Forest to Angel Island.

About where it sets off are the city stages and military bases, but even the latter could at least pass as gray version of something like Launch Base or Chrome Gadget.

If you want to make a case about having recognizable classic aesthetics, technically neither of them come anywhere close to what people associate with the look nowadays—that honor would actually belong more to Heroes.

YEa true, but City Escape is by far the most recognizable stage in the entire game and basically sets the tone for the entire game. Its not even just stage aesthetic either, its also story presentation. 

But the gist is; SA2 stages are more "grounded" than SA1's. There are no stages like Twinkle Park, the classic badniks are gone outside of Eggman's pyramid bases and replaced by generic GUN robots.

 

And Heroes is actually more in line with classic aesthetic, that was the entire point of the game. And its a divisive game too, nowhere near as much as SA2, but both games represent the beginning of two different eras of Sonic fans. 

[Wraith]

The reasons SA2 is divisive mostly have to do with the mechanics. Focusing so hard on the honestly pretty minor differences in aesthetic and tone or whatever  is missing the much more important changes for the trees. 

They replaced Sonic's roll with a somersault. This severely deemphisizes the core mechanic of the series and shifts focus entirely away from it. Sonic Adventure 2 is loyal to the series focus on physics in a lot of ways, but this change represented the series forgoing what was once it's core mechanic. There are a lot of other mechanical changes in the Adventure games you could talk about, but none of them represent Sonic's shift in mechanical focus better than this to me. 

If Sonic Adventure 2 was just a classic Sonic game that felt tonally and aesthetically off for some I doubt there'd much of a rift at all. The game that came after is pretty much a classic game in aesthetic but nobody will welcome it into that fold because it couldn't be LESS like one mechanically.

Majora's Mask's focus on mortality didn't exactly rip that fandom in two. Wind Waker kind of did, but most people shut the fuck up once they got their hands on it and realized they were still playing a Zelda game, more or less. Sonic Adventure 2, as much as I like it, doesn't offer that same comfort. I don't think It's a bad game for it, but I can at least see why people would be put off.

[Kuzu]

Well Wind Waker similarity got shit because of it's aesthetic, but yea its still a Zelda game at the end of the day.

 

Adventure 2 started the point when it became increasingly hard to tell what a Sonic game exactly was, not helping that many people grew up on the game couldn't see anything wrong with it

[Cayenne]

It wasn't just because of it's aesthetic. The Game Cube tech demo from Space World 2000 was taken seriously and made many people mistakenly believe that the next Zelda was going to be exactly like that, with the same atmosphere of OoT/MM. When WW was finally revealed, many fans felt "betrayed" by Nintendo.

On-topic, I think this pretty unpopular: The Sonic from Sonic Boom is one of the best versions of him character-wise. Sonic is usually presented as "the greatest thing since sliced bread", so seeing a flawed incarnation that can make mistakes, be outsmarted or mocked by others while still being cool was a breath of fresh air.

[Iko]

On the subject of Pumpkin Hill, I have this (probably unpopular) opinion:

Pumpkin Hill is the most creative setting in Sonic Adventure 2, it uses a theme that the series rarely uses, a spooky yet still kinda toy-ish type of level.

I think that the location would have worked great redone in classic style, 2D, with a daytime act 1 and nighttime act 2. It's a pity that not even Generations 3DS revamped this zone, and they went for the more generic San Francisco city levels instead.

I was hoping that the prediction of a Pumpkin Hill track in Team Sonic Racing was real, because I was interested to see a modernized version of this zone.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

11 hours ago, StaticMania said:

They use cars because why would Sonic, Shadow, and Metal Sonic slow down enough to be reasonable for everyone else?

It should also be noted how much the characters already controlled like cars in Sonic R anyway.

Riders honestly had the better concept for how racing could work for Sonic imo. Hoverboards/Extreme Gear aren't that big of a departure from the skateboards Sonic sometimes has during the older games, it fits the 90s era cool factor that used to be his thing, it's reasonably compact and can be modified in-universe to be a form of transport for the characters (and if you need it as an offensive option, see RWBY below)

 and overall it's just more original compared to the Mario Kart-esque cars clones.

[Cuz]

I can't give points to Adventure 1 for simply including the roll, because it wasn't really a mechanic in Adventure 1, maybe you could still curl into a ball, but it was just a move left in there for traditions' sake. Nothing in the game actually encourages it over the spindash.

 

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

They replaced Sonic's roll with a somersault... There are a lot of other mechanical changes in the Adventure games you could talk about, but none of them represent Sonic's shift in mechanical focus better than this to me. 

*proceeds to talk about them*

 

SA2's mechanical changes are the core thing that attracts me to it over it's predecessor. Once you consider the trick system/grinding, and bounce, SA doesn't have nearly the amount of movement options in comparison, moving through the speed stages is much more expressive, and are what bring SA2 closer to archiving the rubber-band physics of classic Sonic. The roll is traditionally about utilizing the terrain to gain speed, and knowing when to jump to convert distance into height. The trick system gives some semblance of that, whereas Adventure has more open levels, but ironically it's options for exploring them are too basic. 

[Kuzu]

His point was how the mechanical changes in the Adventure games served to divorce them pretty heavily from the classics, and contributed to the controversial nature of them as they moved further and further from their predecessors.

[Wraith]

39 minutes ago, Cuz said:

 

*proceeds to talk about them*

 

SA2's mechanical changes are the core thing that attracts me to it over it's predecessor. Once you consider the trick system/grinding, and bounce, SA doesn't have nearly the amount of movement options in comparison, moving through the speed stages is much more expressive, and are what bring SA2 closer to archiving the rubber-band physics of classic Sonic. The roll is traditionally about utilizing the terrain to gain speed, and knowing when to jump to convert distance into height. The trick system gives some semblance of that, whereas Adventure has more open levels, but ironically it's options for exploring them are too basic. 

This is a valid perspective. I still lean slightly toward the first game because It's open ended and vertical design rewarded clever engagement with the mechanics. All the cheesy shortcuts in the game involving the spindash could be read as a game design sin, but to me I like it when a Sonic game rewards ingenuity in that way. 

SA2 is much more closed off and linear. I've actually come to prefer how Sonic controls in that game for the most part, but the level design doesn't leave much room to exploit Sonic's kit in clever ways. It's all on even ground and spread out when I prefer to have the level layered on top of itself in ways that allow the player to exploit ramps and inclines. It feels like I'm looking for the optimal way to play the same route rather than having more than one or two paths at my disposal 

It's a shame, because Sonic's kit is a lot more well rounded in the sequel. Rail grinding, the instant light dash and the bounce attack feel like they should be mainstays with how fun they all are to use. Speedrunning And racing in SA2 back in the day was some of the most fun I had with these games because Sonic and Shadow were so responsive with a good amount of tools to work with.

It feels like the best route for the series sat somewhere in the middle of these two games, but Sonic Heroes ended up throwing all of this stuff away, so we never got to get there.

[Red Hot Jack]

Hot take: Does Shadow work best when he is a villain? I think so, considering the direction of recent games, where the focus is mostly on Sonic has the main character, there isn't really place for more heroes, and even when they decide to focus on the other characters, there are so many of them, especially Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Silver, Blaze. Honestly I don't want Shadow to fill one of those roles, not at all, I definitely don't want him to be a silent and passive anti-hero who is forced to stay behind the rest of the cast, overshadowed, and I don't want him to be a dumbass version of Vegeta either.

He needs to fight for his own reasons, not like in Forces where it was a faker, or in Boom where there is literally no backstory and context for him, he's just obsessed with fighting Sonic and that's it, he hates the universe for no reason, he doesn't have his buds Rouge and Omega as well in that version, which are basically what tie him to the light side… Now I want him to have a real reason to fight, either his lack of morals, as shown in IDW issue 6, or have him tempted by someone evil, or just remove his ties to Rouge and Omega in some way. He is a fantastic antagonist in my opinion, or he was in SA2, that's my ideal direction for the character, not some usual anti-hero.

I know there is no progression for Shadow in this way, but there isn't always good progress and redemption in stories (or life). But yeah, he definitely fights for his pride and stubborness, although making him dumb on purpose (*cough* recent comic issue *cough*), isn't the right way either.

[Iko]

12 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

Hot take: Does Shadow work best when he is a villain? I think so, considering the direction of recent games, where the focus is mostly on Sonic has the main character, there isn't really place for more heroes, and even when they decide to focus on the other characters, there are so many of them, especially Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Silver, Blaze. Honestly I don't want Shadow to fill one of those roles, not at all, I definitely don't want him to be a silent and passive anti-hero who is forced to stay behind the rest of the cast, overshadowed, and I don't want him to be a dumbass version of Vegeta either.

He needs to fight for his own reasons, not like in Forces where it was a faker, or in Boom where there is literally no backstory and context for him, he's just obsessed with fighting Sonic and that's it, he hates the universe for no reason, he doesn't have his buds Rouge and Omega as well in that version, which are basically what tie him to the light side… Now I want him to have a real reason to fight, either his lack of morals, as shown in IDW issue 6, or have him tempted by someone evil, or just remove his ties to Rouge and Omega in some way. He is a fantastic antagonist in my opinion, or he was in SA2, that's my ideal direction for the character, not some usual anti-hero.

I know there is no progression for Shadow in this way, but there isn't always good progress and redemption in stories (or life). But yeah, he definitely fights for his pride and stubborness, although making him dumb on purpose (*cough* recent comic issue *cough*), isn't the right way either.

I think Shadow should not be a villain. He's not evil; though I agree that he works better when he's an "enemy".

I think that he should still be a friend of Sonic, but due to his loney nature, he would barely show up and prefers to do stuff by himself, in his own way. Due to a different vision and different morals, Sonic and Shadow would often end in a conflict: they have a common objective but two different way to reach it; Shadow wants to stop Sonic because in his opinion, Sonic's solution will cause trouble and not solve the problem (something that I think happend in the IDW comics already right? I think that's cool).

Also, I think that Shadow needs a real rival/enemy; not Sonic, someone who's actually evil, what Eggman is to Sonic. I think that Sonic Forces is a huge missed opportunity... The story could have been done way better, the potential was there... I would have prefered if Infinite didn't die at the end (well, he just disappeared, it's not clear if he died or not, though he never appeared in another game so far) and the fact that Shadow killed his group of merchenaries should have been the reason of him turning evil... because of this, Infinite should have hated Shadow more than anything else, to the point of constantly trying to get a revenge on him. This would also have explained why during some adventures Shadow is not present, despite the world being in danger and all... Shadow could have been busy fighting Infinite somewhere off-screen (lore-wise).

[Wraith]

21 hours ago, Tangled Jack said:

Hot take: Does Shadow work best when he is a villain? I think so, considering the direction of recent games, where the focus is mostly on Sonic has the main character, there isn't really place for more heroes, and even when they decide to focus on the other characters, there are so many of them, especially Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Silver, Blaze. Honestly I don't want Shadow to fill one of those roles, not at all, I definitely don't want him to be a silent and passive anti-hero who is forced to stay behind the rest of the cast, overshadowed, and I don't want him to be a dumbass version of Vegeta either.

He needs to fight for his own reasons, not like in Forces where it was a faker, or in Boom where there is literally no backstory and context for him, he's just obsessed with fighting Sonic and that's it, he hates the universe for no reason, he doesn't have his buds Rouge and Omega as well in that version, which are basically what tie him to the light side… Now I want him to have a real reason to fight, either his lack of morals, as shown in IDW issue 6, or have him tempted by someone evil, or just remove his ties to Rouge and Omega in some way. He is a fantastic antagonist in my opinion, or he was in SA2, that's my ideal direction for the character, not some usual anti-hero.

I know there is no progression for Shadow in this way, but there isn't always good progress and redemption in stories (or life). But yeah, he definitely fights for his pride and stubborness, although making him dumb on purpose (*cough* recent comic issue *cough*), isn't the right way either.

The thing that distinguishes Shadow from characters like metal Sonic is that he has the capacity to grow past his wrongdoings. This means that after a while it's hard to come up for a reason for him and Sonic to fight eachother, but there's more you can do with the character than that. You can have games where he plays a key role even if he's not the star player.

[Kuzu]

Well the series seems intent on making him an antagonist to Sonic and continuously contriving reasons to do so.

I get it, seeing those two fight is a major selling point for a lot of people, but its been happening with so much frequency that its starting to lose impact.

In a more ideal world, yes Shadow would have his own antagonists to fight; which is hilarious because they have wrestled with that concept so many times, but it never sticks lol. Black Doom, Mephiles, Eclipse and now Infinite were all tied to Shadow...and yet none of that have a stuck around. It sucks too, because Shadow has so much more to offer than just being a bland Vegeta clone who exists to make Sonic look better, but oh well.

[Wraith]

The reason none of them have stuck around is because they're all mostly dead. An arc involving Shadow usually comes with some kind of permanent resolution while Sonic and Eggman are designed to be more static characters.

[DabigRG]

On 8/2/2019 at 12:09 PM, Tangled Jack said:

Hot take: Does Shadow work best when he is a villain? I think so, considering the direction of recent games, where the focus is mostly on Sonic has the main character, there isn't really place for more heroes, and even when they decide to focus on the other characters, there are so many of them, especially Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Silver, Blaze. Honestly I don't want Shadow to fill one of those roles, not at all, I definitely don't want him to be a silent and passive anti-hero who is forced to stay behind the rest of the cast, overshadowed, and I don't want him to be a dumbass version of Vegeta either.

He needs to fight for his own reasons, not like in Forces where it was a faker, or in Boom where there is literally no backstory and context for him, he's just obsessed with fighting Sonic and that's it, he hates the universe for no reason, he doesn't have his buds Rouge and Omega as well in that version, which are basically what tie him to the light side… Now I want him to have a real reason to fight, either his lack of morals, as shown in IDW issue 6, or have him tempted by someone evil, or just remove his ties to Rouge and Omega in some way. He is a fantastic antagonist in my opinion, or he was in SA2, that's my ideal direction for the character, not some usual anti-hero.

I know there is no progression for Shadow in this way, but there isn't always good progress and redemption in stories (or life). But yeah, he definitely fights for his pride and stubborness, although making him dumb on purpose (*cough* recent comic issue *cough*), isn't the right way either.

Shadow, perhaps more than anything else, was a product of his time and a major definition of that time despite being conceived from a basic concept. Now that he's had development and that time is over, it's hard to do all that much with him. 

2 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

.n a more ideal world, yes Shadow would have his own antagonists to fight; which is hilarious because they have wrestled with that concept so many times, but it never sticks lol. Black Doom, Mephiles, Eclipse and now Infinite were all tied to Shadow...and yet none of that have a stuck around. It sucks too, because Shadow has so much more to offer than just being a bland Vegeta clone who exists to make Sonic look better, but oh well.

 

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

The reason none of them have stuck around is because they're all mostly dead. 

Pretty much. Technically applies to the games in general. 

(Well except Eclipse, who simply got cut short and presumably locked because of Sega ended their connection with Archie.) 

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

 An arc involving Shadow usually comes with some kind of permanent resolution while Sonic and Eggman are designed to be more static characters.

That's very important as well.