Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[batson]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 1:09 PM, ComeAsYouAre said:

Many star War fans who bashed Lucas back in the day deeply regret it nowadays since they realised that it led to him not wanting anything to do with the IP and selling it off to Disney who pretty much turned it into "Marvel no.2"

Nothing Disney has done to the series is anywhere near as bad as The Phantom Menace...

[Diogenes]

5 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

This isn't true, A lot of people wanted it to fail 

A lot of people expected it to be bad, and bad games should fail.

[ComeAsYouAre]

1 hour ago, batson said:

Nothing Disney has done to the series is anywhere near as bad as The Phantom Menace...

You clearly didn't see the leaks  so I am not gonna spoiler you....

39 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

A lot of people expected it to be bad, and bad games should fail.

A lot wanted it to be bad because they didn't like 3D Sonic/Boost/Infinite/OC/Classic Sonic/Whatever triggered them about the trailers 

[Diogenes]

Right, they expected it to be bad, based on the things that were supposed to convince them it was good. And, I should note, it was bad.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

There’s a difference in expecting the game to be bad and desiring the game to fail, the latter of which a number of people have been vocal about even on these forums.

I expected the game to be bad, but I didn’t want it to, nor did I want the game to fail because of things I didn’t like, if there was a chance it might prove me wrong and actually turn out well (which it didn’t, but not to the extent of The glitchfest thay was Sonic 06).

Expecting something to be bad, doesn’t mean it will be bad. And it certainly doesn’t mean it’ll be bad based on something on the surface one doesn’t like. I sure as hell didn’t like the fact that Infinite was a thing in the trailers in what I thought was yet another case of a “monster of the week,” but while I still found him to be pretty shallow he didn’t meet all my disappointments I had for him and turned out to be something much different (albiet not as good) than expected.

[BaronGrackle]

7 hours ago, ComeAsYouAre said:

This isn't true, A lot of people wanted it to fail 

Sorry, I didn't realize.

I was on the SEGA official forum starting with the leadup to Sonic 4. So I saw positive reactions to Sonic Colors and then Sonic Generations. When I left, they were about to release Rise of Lyric, which I expected to be another good game with multiple playable characters.

Things didn't turn out that way.

[MainJP]

On 9/12/2019 at 5:36 PM, sonic 1-derful said:

I think the whole 'heroes vs villains' concept is tired in general, not just in sonic games. there are other possible stories to tell that don't involve conflict. I find that boss battles slow things down. i'm not saying robotnik should be removed, but maybe he could be used in a different way? I actually like the sonic 1/cd hybrids created by fans, and the sonic runners format, that take on a more obstacle course style of gameplay. for me, it's about the speed, platforming, and exploration. anything else is baggage in my opinion.

This combined with your other comment is a jalapeno hot take if I've ever seen one.

[sonic 1-derful]

10 hours ago, MainJP said:

This combined with your other comment is a jalapeno hot take if I've ever seen one.

what does that mean? what are you referring to specifically?

[Sonic Fan J]

19 minutes ago, sonic 1-derful said:

what does that mean? what are you referring to specifically?

I believe when they say a hot take they are specifically referring to your stance on conflict as a basis for a games story. The use of the word jalapeno is to emphasize how strong they find your hot take. At least that's how I infer it.

On the other hand, as much as I enjoy a good Sonic vs. Eggman showdown, I wouldn't mind a game or two without that type of conflict. I've said it before but I wouldn't mind a Journey-esque Sonic game where you just use Sonic's abilities to proceed towards whatever wondrous destination has caught his attention or a spinoff game where Sonic and friends are racing on foot but set up like Outrun so you can choose different routes and see all sorts of cool and unique locations. Then again though, I'm a sucker for discovery based exploration and have always enjoyed that aspect of the series as much if not more than the hero and shounen action style stories it is more known for.

[Wraith]

Disliking Sonic games is a valid position but more and more I find myself questioning the worth of general critical acclaim over what I personally want out of games. There are a lot of critically acclaimed games I don't care for at all and vice versa. At what point do we acknowledge that it's possible for public opinion to be wrong or unreasonable about something? It wasn't that long ago that "Sonic was never good" was a growing sentiment. 

Sonic games and games in general are simply more interesting to me when they aren't catering to the whims of a narrow minded fanbase or trying to fit quotas of an overbearing publisher. Sonic has never been completely free of this type of influence, but seeing the artistic drive get scared out of the series by discourse and backlash that's so poorly articulated and conveyed that It's functionally useless as advice is frustrating. 

Ambition and self indulgence just make for far more interesting games than consistency and brand awareness. Sonic games that "aren't hated" imo embody concepts that are more poisonous to the series growth than what came before in the long term, but none of this is acknowledged because the mainstream don't make fun of the games anymore and I guess that's the end goal for a lot of the fandom now

[batson]

About Sonic Forces, it makes me genuinly as that it turned out as bad as it did. Because prior to the games release, it really seemed like the game that might appeal to the majority of the fanbase instead of just a part of it. Think about it; it featured the boost gameplay that modern fans enjoy, it fetaured classic Sonic in 2D levels for classic fans (and we could all at least hope that they might have actually improved Sonic's physics since Generations) and the games presentation seemed to appeal to the long-ignored Adventure fans, with it's more serious tone and vocal music tracks. And then there was the concept of players being able to make their own avatar character, something that seemed like the perfect gift for the fancharacter obsessed Sonic community.

But then the game got released and it all just came crumbling down when it turned out that the gameplay was bad, in extremely sharp contrast to Colors and Generations, which is something that I for one definitely did not expect. And so the game that was supposed to unite the fanbase turned out to be nothing other than yet another in the long line of sub-par Sonic games. Like I said, it still makes me sad thinking about it.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, batson said:

About Sonic Forces, it makes me genuinly as that it turned out as bad as it did. Because prior to the games release, it really seemed like the game that might appeal to the majority of the fanbase instead of just a part of it. Think about it; it featured the boost gameplay that modern fans enjoy, it fetaured classic Sonic in 2D levels for classic fans (and we could all at least hope that they might have actually improved Sonic's physics since Generations) and the games presentation seemed to appeal to the long-ignored Adventure fans, with it's more serious tone and vocal music tracks. And then there was the concept of players being able to make their own avatar character, something that seemed like the perfect gift for the fancharacter obsessed Sonic community.

But then the game got released and it all just came crumbling down when it turned out that the gameplay was bad, in extremely sharp contrast to Colors and Generations, which is something that I for one definitely did not expect. And so the game that was supposed to unite the fanbase turned out to be nothing other than yet another in the long line of sub-par Sonic games. Like I said, it still makes me sad thinking about it.

When you put it that way, it is a bit of a shame. 

[batson]

14 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

When you put it that way, it is a bit of a shame. 

And the strange part of Forces' failure is that unlike most of the big flops in this franchise, the game wasn't some kind of bold new experiment. Most of the time when a Sonic game fails it's because it tries something totally new for the series that end up just not working, like the Werehog in Unleahsed or the slower pace and spherical level design of Lost World. Forces on the other hand was at it's core simply yet another instance of a gameplay that Sonic Team has already done successfully in Colors and Generations. It's such a tremendous shame, and it came so out of the blue, that the developers so completely dropped the ball on something that they by all accounts should have been able to do well.

[Kuzu]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

Disliking Sonic games is a valid position but more and more I find myself questioning the worth of general critical acclaim over what I personally want out of games. There are a lot of critically acclaimed games I don't care for at all and vice versa. At what point do we acknowledge that it's possible for public opinion to be wrong or unreasonable about something? It wasn't that long ago that "Sonic was never good" was a growing sentiment. 

Sonic games and games in general are simply more interesting to me when they aren't catering to the whims of a narrow minded fanbase or trying to fit quotas of an overbearing publisher. Sonic has never been completely free of this type of influence, but seeing the artistic drive get scared out of the series by discourse and backlash that's so poorly articulated and conveyed that It's functionally useless as advice is frustrating. 

Ambition and self indulgence just make for far more interesting games than consistency and brand awareness. Sonic games that "aren't hated" imo embody concepts that are more poisonous to the series growth than what came before in the long term, but none of this is acknowledged because the mainstream don't make fun of the games anymore and I guess that's the end goal for a lot of the fandom now

Given how much of a meme the series was, it's not hard to see why. Being a Sonic fan was the primary target for mockery, and a lot of fans aren't really equipped to deal with so much hate and scorn. I can see why they'd take comfort in unambitious but safe titles, as cynical as that sounds.

 

Really, it's just an unfortunate card the series has been dealt.

[MainJP]

10 hours ago, sonic 1-derful said:

what does that mean? what are you referring to specifically?

@Sonic Fan J summed up what I meant pretty much.

I can't say too much about AoSTH because I haven't seen it in over a decade tbh but these in particular:

Quote

I would prefer sonic's world to be colourful, light-hearted, without any complicated plots or 'deep motives'

I think sonic should be the only playable character in the games 

"Deep motives" in themselves shouldn't be seen as a detriment, it's more so how they're handled in a certain story. Maybe explain that one more? Having a 'deep motive' doesn't mean you can't be light-hearted.

As far as Sonic being the only playable character, I mean...we've kinda been stuck with only Sonic for the past decade barring Mania so you kinda already got your wish anyway. Is there a particular reason say characters like Tails or Knuckles for example shouldn't be playable? Sonic 3K and Mania are generally seen as the series' shining example of how to handle multiple playable characters since no one character drastically changes the way the game is played like SA1 or 2 for example. I know that every time I came back to S3K or Mania the I would pick a different character each time to get acclimated to their abilities and how they handle certain areas and obstacles while putting said abilities to use.

Being able to hit those speedrun strats with Ray via picking up momentum without hitting an obstacle hit feels satisfying, being able to reach areas and find extra goodies that Sonic can't reach with Tails or Knuckles gives the player more incentive to explore stages etc. The variety they add with their own unique abilities without deviating from the core Sonic gameplay adds to the replay value; it keeps players coming back.

 

9 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

On the other hand, as much as I enjoy a good Sonic vs. Eggman showdown, I wouldn't mind a game or two without that type of conflict. I've said it before but I wouldn't mind a Journey-esque Sonic game where you just use Sonic's abilities to proceed towards whatever wondrous destination has caught his attention or a spinoff game where Sonic and friends are racing on foot but set up like Outrun so you can choose different routes and see all sorts of cool and unique locations. Then again though, I'm a sucker for discovery based exploration and have always enjoyed that aspect of the series as much if not more than the hero and shounen action style stories it is more known for.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea when you put it that way. I assume it wouldn't have the obstacles you would find in a traditional Sonic game like badniks for example since they're essentially just adventuring without prior conflict, correct? No Eggman essentially means no killer robots.

What would be the goal? Would there be missions? There's a lot of things you could do with that.

[StaticMania]

7 minutes ago, MainJP said:

What would be the goal? Would there be missions? There's a lot of things you could do with that.

Sonic likes to explore, there's plenty that can be done with that alone.

But if you want a concrete "finish line" to get to while not being Eggman related, it'd just be time to introduce some more lore. Then the journey ends with them finding "whatever" or whatever.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, batson said:

And the strange part of Forces' failure is that unlike most of the big flops in this franchise, the game wasn't some kind of bold new experiment. Most of the time when a Sonic game fails it's because it tries something totally new for the series that end up just not working, like the Werehog in Unleahsed or the slower pace and spherical level design of Lost World. Forces on the other hand was at it's core simply yet another instance of a gameplay that Sonic Team has already done successfully in Colors and Generations. It's such a tremendous shame, and it came so out of the blue, that the developers so completely dropped the ball on something that they by all accounts should have been able to do well.

Probably because they panicked after their efforts with Lost World went mostly substantiated and so halfassed bringing back things from previous games to put on top of the Avatar. 

[Shadowlax]

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Disliking Sonic games is a valid position but more and more I find myself questioning the worth of general critical acclaim over what I personally want out of games. There are a lot of critically acclaimed games I don't care for at all and vice versa.

 

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

At what point do we acknowledge that it's possible for public opinion to be wrong or unreasonable about something?

I think its less when do we acknowledge when is the general public wrong and more so when do we, or rather sega acknowledge that there are " general public's " so to speak. A good example would be DC comics. Most people...everywhere have an idea who batman is yeah? But a chunk of those people if you asked them, might say robin sucks and shouldn't be around. In reality robin is why batman continues to exist. He wasn't doing well and the introduction of robin in his books lifted sales. Robin has always done well and there are periods like now where the teen titains/ Young Justice equivalents are more popular than the justice league itself.

Now that guy who thinks robin sucks, there might be a lot of him. But you as company have ask yourself how much is he worth, because the other general public who likes robin makes you a lot of money. You have to determine which general public , which demographic is worth it in the long run. ( This doesn't account for say the personal preference of those in charge, for example robin makes money but DC films havent got the DC characters right untill...very recently and even then there seems to be no inclination that no one working on batman stuff wants to do robin. Clearly they don't think much of the character. But again there's no accounting for the guy in charge of the project being stupid)

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

It wasn't that long ago that "Sonic was never good" was a growing sentiment. 

This is the sort of sentiment I feel personally indicates that you shouldn't listen to that person's opinions on games. But further more , if I were a company this is not the type of sentiment I would be catering to.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic games and games in general are simply more interesting to me when they aren't catering to the whims of a narrow minded fanbase or trying to fit quotas of an overbearing publisher.

While I would like to note that wouldn't shouldn't forget the multitude of failures on sonic teams part. I generally agree. Even with sonic boom, I thought the base premise was a neat idea but then you go behind the scenes and sega's meddling is how we got what we ended up with. But the core idea behind sonic boom or sonic synergy seemed sound. I really don't mind sonic trying to do new things. Yes I would like them to appeal to my nostalgia and yeah that desire has intensified because mania exists and I want my adventure equivalent. But that desire does not come at the removal of other elements .Some fans would prefer if whole other sections and takes on sonic were erased and that seems uh... narrow minded as you said. So does the overbearing nature of sega with their decreasing budgets and tendency to rush.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic has never been completely free of this type of influence, but seeing the artistic drive get scared out of the series by discourse and backlash that's so poorly articulated and conveyed that It's functionally useless as advice is frustrating. 

Yeah, We are still feeling the " Shitty Friends " backlash, and now , and there have been new backlashes. We are just starting to kind of recover from the misinterpretation of that backlash and its over a decade later. Frustrating is a good word.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

Ambition and self indulgence just make for far more interesting games than consistency and brand awareness. Sonic games that "aren't hated" imo embody concepts that are more poisonous to the series growth than what came before in the long term,

If I may ask what games might you be referring to and what about them

However if I may contribute to your statement

" yes I understand that Forces and Lost world aren't technically as bad as sonic 06. They are just in everything but music , much much much less interesting and engaging as video games as this glitchy fuckfest that killed a bunch of peoples enthusiasm in the franchise in 2006. But its apparently its ok to you because egoraptor made fun of it less or something "

 

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

but none of this is acknowledged because the mainstream don't make fun of the games anymore and I guess that's the end goal for a lot of the fandom now

This is weird to me. Maybe its because I like so many games and genre's that just aren't liked by the mainstream but I don't personally care. yes I care on the level of " hey if more people like sonic , he will keep existing " in a purely " I understand how capitalism works " way. I dunno man I'm just feel like... i'm too old to care. And I think we should just... stop

[Sonic Fan J]

4 hours ago, MainJP said:

That doesn't sound like a bad idea when you put it that way. I assume it wouldn't have the obstacles you would find in a traditional Sonic game like badniks for example since they're essentially just adventuring without prior conflict, correct? No Eggman essentially means no killer robots.

What would be the goal? Would there be missions? There's a lot of things you could do with that.

There's plenty to touch on really as @StaticMania points out. Sonic is technically an adventurer first and foremost where we the audience typically only see those stories wher he encounters Eggman. The funny thing is, how I interpret some of the backstory in the Japanese manual for Sonic 1 is that Sonic was already world famous even before his first encounter with Eggman so there should be a lot more to Sonic than what we normally see. That, and Sonic's moveset lends itself very well to environmental puzzle platformers even if his speed makes it so that the puzzles should be solve at a glance.

[BaronGrackle]

54 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

That, and Sonic's moveset lends itself very well to environmental puzzle platformers even if his speed makes it so that the puzzles should be solve at a glance.

Isn't it hilarious how Marble Zone has that simple block "puzzle" early in the first act, where Sonic pushes the block on a switch to keep it activated? It sort of stands out to me.

We never saw that sort of thing again until Knuckles in Sandopolis Zone Act 2, pushing a stone against a lever to keep it in place.

That stuff was rare, but there very easily could've been a lot more.

[Sonic Fan J]

6 minutes ago, BaronGrackle said:

Isn't it hilarious how Marble Zone has that simple block "puzzle" early in the first act, where Sonic pushes the block on a switch to keep it activated? It sort of stands out to me.

We never saw that sort of thing again until Knuckles in Sandopolis Zone Act 2, pushing a stone against a lever to keep it in place.

That stuff was rare, but there very easily could've been a lot more.

I never did understand that part to be honest. I could see pushing blocks to reveal secrets as a thing to do, but one of the things I loved about the original game is that each stage challenges you to find different ways to move using Sonic's moveset. Pushing a block (which I always exploited a glitch where I pushed it while rolling without any input) just doesn't challenge me to move differently and always felt like a waste of time.

[sonic 1-derful]

13 hours ago, MainJP said:

@Sonic Fan J summed up what I meant pretty much.

I can't say too much about AoSTH because I haven't seen it in over a decade tbh but these in particular:

"Deep motives" in themselves shouldn't be seen as a detriment, it's more so how they're handled in a certain story. Maybe explain that one more? Having a 'deep motive' doesn't mean you can't be light-hearted.

As far as Sonic being the only playable character, I mean...we've kinda been stuck with only Sonic for the past decade barring Mania so you kinda already got your wish anyway. Is there a particular reason say characters like Tails or Knuckles for example shouldn't be playable? Sonic 3K and Mania are generally seen as the series' shining example of how to handle multiple playable characters since no one character drastically changes the way the game is played like SA1 or 2 for example. I know that every time I came back to S3K or Mania the I would pick a different character each time to get acclimated to their abilities and how they handle certain areas and obstacles while putting said abilities to use.

Being able to hit those speedrun strats with Ray via picking up momentum without hitting an obstacle hit feels satisfying, being able to reach areas and find extra goodies that Sonic can't reach with Tails or Knuckles gives the player more incentive to explore stages etc. The variety they add with their own unique abilities without deviating from the core Sonic gameplay adds to the replay value; it keeps players coming back.

 

That doesn't sound like a bad idea when you put it that way. I assume it wouldn't have the obstacles you would find in a traditional Sonic game like badniks for example since they're essentially just adventuring without prior conflict, correct? No Eggman essentially means no killer robots.

What would be the goal? Would there be missions? There's a lot of things you could do with that.

I don't like other characters in the games because they are often given sonic's abilities, plus their own on top of that. making him redundant in his own series. it started with tails being a clone in sonic 2. it takes away from what made sonic a unique individual in the first place. the only thing I didn't like in the 'ok ko' crossover episode was that the heroes were all able to spin-dash. I actually didn't mind amy's gameplay in the advance series. she was able to navigate sonic's environment in her own way.

as far as the tone of everything goes, I just think that when things are; serious, complicated, dark, and edgy, it takes away from the fun aspect. for me anyway. I think preference depends on when the individual was first introduced to sonic. for me it was the original game and 'adventures of'. I do see hope for the future though, if they go in the direction of the recent cartoons (first episode of 'mania adventures' and 'ok ko' crossover).

[StaticMania]

It doesn't matter what abilities they share.

What matters is if those extra abilities make a character anymore fun to play than Sonic.

Some people would prefer to not fly or slowly glide/climb and just be able to play da fast way.

Redundant characters literally never matter in video games.

[BaronGrackle]

2 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Redundant characters literally never matter in video games.

Of course, 2D Sonic games from Sonic 2 through Sonic Mania will understand the cardinal rule about using redundant characters:

You can finish Sonic's story without playing as Tails or Knuckles. You can finish Tails's story without playing as Sonic or Knuckles. You can finish Knuckles's story without playing as Sonic or Tails.

3D games like Sonic Heroes have never figured this out.

[Splash the Otter]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I really wish Eggman wasn't a human. As it is he's out of place in what's supposed to be a furry/anthro setting.