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43 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

I feel that Shadow's power should just be chaos manipulation. Having him be as fast as Sonic and strong as Knuckles makes him (look) OP. Also, Knuckles should just have his strength.

Most of Knuckles abilities span from his spurs, with gliding being a transition to climbing walls in addition to transversing Angel Island.

 

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14 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

I feel that Shadow's power should just be chaos manipulation. Having him be as fast as Sonic and strong as Knuckles makes him (look) OP. Also, Knuckles should just have his strength.

Shadow isn't as strong as knuckles, though. Throwing a bus does not make him as strong as a guy who induces volcanic eruptions just by striking the ground hard enough.

13 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Most of Knuckles abilities span from his spurs, with gliding being a transition to climbing walls in addition to transversing Angel Island.

 

They're probably talking about Knuckles' geokinesis. Thunder Arrow, Meteor Crush, those moves.

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13 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

I feel that Shadow's power should just be chaos manipulation. Having him be as fast as Sonic and strong as Knuckles makes him (look) OP. Also, Knuckles should just have his strength.

The entire point of the character is to be "Dark Sonic", which kind of necessitates he be as fast as him. He's not as strong as Knuckles tho. Yes, he did stupid shit in his game, but his game was stupid and he's had no comparable feats since.

 

 

A Shadow related unpopular opinion; I've realized recently that looking back, Shadow's personality was actually very undefined, in the sense that outside of his big backstory, you never really get a sense of who he is without it. 

He's an extremely context-sensitive character, hence he tends to feel out of place when he's not in some big epic story related to his backstory. 

So I can kind of understand why they started exaggerating some of his personality traits so that he can be defined by an innate personality quirk and not some big backstory. 

 

Same deal with Knuckles too actually 

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14 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

 Also, Knuckles should just have his strength.

If you take gliding and climbing away from Knuckles, isn't he just Storm?

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3 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The entire point of the character is to be "Dark Sonic", which kind of necessitates he be as fast as him. He's not as strong as Knuckles tho. Yes, he did stupid shit in his game, but his game was stupid and he's had no comparable feats since.

 

 

A Shadow related unpopular opinion; I've realized recently that looking back, Shadow's personality was actually very undefined, in the sense that outside of his big backstory, you never really get a sense of who he is without it. 

He's an extremely context-sensitive character, hence he tends to feel out of place when he's not in some big epic story related to his backstory. 

So I can kind of understand why they started exaggerating some of his personality traits so that he can be defined by an innate personality quirk and not some big backstory. 

 

Same deal with Knuckles too actually 

I think it adds to that earlier theory someone added onto my previous one, that Shadow is a character the writers actually aren't very invested in, but feel they NEED to keep him as main tier character. Likely same for Knuckles really. You think about it, their agency is often some of the poorest in later games, Knuckles is just a sidekick most of the time now, and Shadow usually just gets orders from GUN. They keep their base characteristics but they don't tend to play a lot into what goes on.

It actually sounds like this was EXACTLY the issue for Shadow in Sonic Boom. They even bemoaned that they had problems working him around the comedy. But Shadow is popular.

Being defined by character quirks isn't a bad thing if they are fleshed out enough (Mania shown comedic Knuckles can work just fine) but the writers have to care about giving it all an agency and depth. You can often tell which characters a writer doesn't really have a passion for positive or negative, because they don't 'get in the way' through any character driven plot. If they don't have a choice in the matter however, it can get rather awkward.

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4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think it adds to that earlier theory someone added onto my previous one, that Shadow is a character the writers actually aren't very invested in, but feel they NEED to keep him as main tier character. Likely same for Knuckles really. You think about it, their agency is often some of the poorest in later games, Knuckles is just a sidekick most of the time now, and Shadow usually just gets orders from GUN. They keep their base characteristics but they don't tend to play a lot into what goes on.

It actually sounds like this was EXACTLY the issue for Shadow in Sonic Boom. They even bemoaned that they had problems working him around the comedy. But Shadow is popular.

Yea, without their pre established contexts they just kind of exist with no real reason to. I can understand why writers find them hard to use, especially if you want a more character driven narrative like recent media has been going for.

Characters like Tails,  Amy and even Sonic himself don't have this issue because their personalities lend them being able show up whenever and wherever regardless of context; Tails is Sonic's sidekick, so of course he sticks with him. Amy chases after Sonic, so its not weird for her to show up. And Sonic is a drifter who goes where he pleases and gets caught up with whatever is happening. Their personalities are simple yet broad enough to fit whatever context is needed.

 

Characters like Knuckles, Shadow, and Blaze are harder to work with because you need to construct the story in a way where they don't feel out of place due to their established contexts. And whenever they try to work off their personalities, it tends to feel awkward and forced (i.e. Shadow in Boom, and Knuckles in basically any game pass Heroes)

 

I never actually realized how different these characters are and how they work due to their backgrounds and personality.

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13 hours ago, MainJP said:

Shadow isn't as strong as knuckles, though. Throwing a bus does not make him as strong as a guy who induces volcanic eruptions just by striking the ground hard enough.

They're probably talking about Knuckles' geokinesis. Thunder Arrow, Meteor Crush, those moves.

Thunder Arrow is basically his Black Wave for SA2 only. What is Meteor Crush?

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16 hours ago, MainJP said:

Shadow isn't as strong as knuckles, though. Throwing a bus does not make him as strong as a guy who induces volcanic eruptions just by striking the ground hard enough.

Have we actually ever seen Knuckles cause volcanic eruptions by punching the ground aside from the Sonic Boom opening?

9 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The entire point of the character is to be "Dark Sonic", which kind of necessitates he be as fast as him. 

That would be a fair point, if ridiculous chaos powers weren't add on top of that. Shadow is (or at least was) basically a DBZ-esque character.

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2 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Have we actually ever seen Knuckles cause volcanic eruptions by punching the ground aside from the Sonic Boom opening?

Sonic Heroes. 

 

9 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

The entire point of the character is to be "Dark Sonic", which kind of necessitates he be as fast as him. He's not as strong as Knuckles tho. Yes, he did stupid shit in his game, but his game was stupid and he's had no comparable feats since.

 

 

A Shadow related unpopular opinion; I've realized recently that looking back, Shadow's personality was actually very undefined, in the sense that outside of his big backstory, you never really get a sense of who he is without it. 

He's an extremely context-sensitive character, hence he tends to feel out of place when he's not in some big epic story related to his backstory. 

So I can kind of understand why they started exaggerating some of his personality traits so that he can be defined by an innate personality quirk and not some big backstory. 

 

Same deal with Knuckles too actually 

You mean outside of dark antihero stuff? 

While I see what you're getting at, I feel like Knuckles doesn't have it as bad. Probably because as a Classic character, there was more emphasis on fun than on straightforward story telling. 

Well that and him more flexible. 

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21 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

 

That would be a fair point, if ridiculous chaos powers weren't add on top of that. Shadow is (or at least was) basically a DBZ-esque character.

To be fair, when was the last time he used those extra powers? Outside of Chaos Control, which is his signature move, he hasn't really used anything else.

That said, you are right that those abilities put him a little over the top.

 

13 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Sonic Heroes. 

 

You mean outside of dark antihero stuff? 

While I see what you're getting at, I feel like Knuckles doesn't have it as bad. Probably because as a Classic character, there was more emphasis on fun than on straightforward story telling. 

Well that and him more flexible. 

Knuckles is canonically an insecure hothead, so he's a bit more flexible. But now they're passing that characterization onto Shadow so I dunno.

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6 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

To be fair, when was the last time he used those extra powers? Outside of Chaos Control, which is his signature move, he hasn't really used anything else.

That said, you are right that those abilities put him a little over the top.

 

Knuckles is canonically an insecure hothead, so he's a bit more flexible. But now they're passing that characterization onto Shadow so I dunno.

He uses Chaos Spear if he powers up in Generations,iirc

Oops. The cycle goes in reverse. 

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I kind of wish the story for Colors DS was the story the Wii version had. Literally only because it's the one with all the characters in it. 

 

Mm, I can sorta see that.

It would've been a big first go for all of the cast, beating Free Riders. And the laid back tone meant they could sneak in characters without overly involving them. 

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38 minutes ago, Dr. Franken-Mike said:

I kind of wish the story for Colors DS was the story the Wii version had. Literally only because it's the one with all the characters in it. 

 

I also think Lost World should have gotten something like that, too.

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4 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Thunder Arrow is basically his Black Wave for SA2 only. What is Meteor Crush?

It's still a thing that happens. Rouge's Black Wave  and her Beauty Shock are variations on her ability to use sonic's.

tYNaQU7.png

Thunder Arrow falls under Geoelectricity Manipulation which falls under geokinesis.

It's a move in Sonic Battle where he calls down meteors. Another geokinetic ability.

blaXbHg.gif

2 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Have we actually ever seen Knuckles cause volcanic eruptions by punching the ground aside from the Sonic Boom opening?

Volcanic Dunk from Sonic Heroes.

AyapKMG.jpg

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19 minutes ago, MainJP said:

It's still a thing that happens. Rouge's Black Wave  and her Beauty Shock are variations on her ability to use sonic's.

tYNaQU7.png

Thunder Arrow falls under Geoelectricity Manipulation which falls under geokinesis.

It's a move in Sonic Battle where he calls down meteors. Another geokinetic ability.

blaXbHg.gif

 

The shit? Guess he really is the mountain to Sonic's wind.

Still, fighting game.

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On 10/10/2019 at 4:48 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

To be fair, when was the last time he used those extra powers? Outside of Chaos Control, which is his signature move, he hasn't really used anything else.

That said, you are right that those abilities put him a little over the top.

Fair enough.

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On 10/10/2019 at 6:48 PM, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

To be fair, when was the last time he used those extra powers? Outside of Chaos Control, which is his signature move, he hasn't really used anything else.

That said, you are right that those abilities put him a little over the top.

I'm pretty sure those "extra powers" all fall under Chaos Control. According to Sonic Retro and News Network Chaos Powers are a product of Chaos Control. Energy projection, reality distortion...

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latest?cb=20130129095505

And when you're not playable much in 10 years you don't really have the opportunity to really do...anything to be fair.

On 10/10/2019 at 6:24 PM, Mountaindewandsprite said:

That would be a fair point, if ridiculous chaos powers weren't add on top of that. Shadow is (or at least was) basically a DBZ-esque character.

I wouldn't even say that, those abilities actually make him more versatile than your typical DBZ character who are mostly bricks with energy projection. Shadow is a hax character.

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Okay....I NEVER was big on the robotisation concept in the western spin offs. I feel like the concept was a bit too grim for Sonic, and ultimately even the more serious were doomed in being able to play it properly. Characters reduced to a state of living death, left as Robotnik's drones while being aware the whole time for what is often implied to be over a decade, creepy as hell. And did even one character play that trauma palpably when they were finally freed? Not ONE. 

Archie and the likes always seemed to try add loads of creepy mutilation concepts for their villain to show how super evil and dark they were, but they still wanted to keep on the upbeat narrative of a cartoon, only getting the shock value but none of the emotion payoff. It looked like a little kid trying to tell big boy horror stories. Legionising had an interesting premise since they demonstrated the actual victims treating it with horror but the Freedom Fighters kind of inadvertently coldly shrugging it off, having a 'million is a statistic' outlook to 'winning' the war. This could have could have been an interesting twist if they were willing to undermine the Freedom Fighters but instead the plot made it so the more realistic and suffering side was wrong.

And then they brought back robotocisation so they could have the Mecha Sally arc and 'evacuate' Sally from the whole conflict by robbing her of any agency (they did this a lot really looking back at the comics, any time she was challenged by another person she got demoted real quick) with the expected five seconds of horror in the reboot continuity before it was all shrugged off.

I don't even wanna talk about the planned NICOLE backstory for SatAm's third season. It was robotocisation's pretentiousness and horror story fetish blasted up to a million, especially since it sounded like they didn't even have a flowing plot for it. The shock value was top priority.

The whole 'placed inside badniks' premise in the games never bugged me the same way, it always had a cartoony charm to it that implied it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Animals weren't supposed to be traumatised and scarred for life from the process, like they were meant to be in some sort of stasis inside. Gamma was the nearest to taking that premise dramatically, and even there more from the actual robot side of things, whose emotions about it were naturally meant to be suppressed. Even there it felt like the ending still had a bit of tongue in cheek endearment to it.

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4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

The whole 'placed inside badniks' premise in the games never bugged me the same way, it always had a cartoony charm to it that implied it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Animals weren't supposed to be traumatised and scarred for life from the process, like they were meant to be in some sort of stasis inside. Gamma was the nearest to taking that premise dramatically, and even there more from the actual robot side of things, whose emotions about it were naturally meant to be suppressed. Even there it felt like the ending still had a bit of tongue in cheek endearment to it.

As western spinoff material goes, AoStH and Fleetway both have takes on the "animals in Badniks" thing.

In AoStH, Robotnik holds a mouse's family hostage and forces him to pilot a robot rather than using him as a power source. And in Fleetway, the animals are treated more like organic batteries for the robots.

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Unpopular opinion, I love Extreme Gear and would want them to be more prominent in the series. I'd love it if they became a kind of power up like the Rocket Shoes from Sonic Chaos. As an aside I loved the skateboard power up from Generations.

 spacer.png

Either that or maybe some kind of special stage gimmick like the Sonic Advance 1 ones.

Or even just as transportation for some characters utilize to get around quicker on. There's so many different designs with the Board, Bike, Skates, Air Ride, Yacht and Wheel types that there'd be a type and unique design that can be fitting for anyone. A few examples of designs I really like.

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

I don't know, I just love the things and think they're super neat.

Also, look how cool Eggman looks riding his E-Rider:

spacer.png

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51 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

Unpopular opinion, I love Extreme Gear and would want them to be more prominent in the series. I'd love it if they became a kind of power up like the Rocket Shoes from Sonic Chaos. As an aside I loved the skateboard power up from Generations.

 spacer.png

Either that or maybe some kind of special stage gimmick like the Sonic Advance 1 ones.

Or even just as transportation for some characters utilize to get around quicker on. There's so many different designs with the Board, Bike, Skates, Air Ride, Yacht and Wheel types that there'd be a type and unique design that can be fitting for anyone. A few examples of designs I really like.

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

I don't know, I just love the things and think they're super neat.

Also, look how cool Eggman looks riding his E-Rider:

spacer.png

Reminds me of the Archie reboot. 

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Wanna comment on two things

On topic: Special stages are trash

Had a long post here. Not worth it.

Shadow's stronger than you think he's specifically being dictated to be so to the detriment to his character I feel. But this ain't the thread for it  , especially a days old argument.

So I will offer you a controversial hot take unpopular opinion: I'm slowly coming upon the realization that tails outside of him being able to fly is largely kind of a bad character and was only a good character twice before Ian flynn started writing the comics and even then he's not good all the time. He tends to be good when Ian flynn diverges from who his character actually is. 

I don't think tails outside of gameplay utility has never been that interesting except when they characterize him unlike hisself or in a way that is static

 

 

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