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People are rigid because that's how Sega have chosen to characterize him. Shadow's biggest appearances almost always have him as one of the major players, so how else are people supposed to define him if that's what most of his existence has been?

 

It's not that he can't work in a secondary role, but he lacks a lot of distinct traits to justify it. Like, he can play a secondary role to Rouge, but then what's his actual purpose in doing so? What traits does he bring to the table to support her as a main character? And I mean personality traits.

Most of the time he's been in a secondary role, he doesn't really contribute much to the plot (which, to be fair, is most of the secondary characters nowadays and not just a problem exclusive to him).

 

Putting Shadow in a secondary role means you need to give him traits that befit a secondary character...which he kind of lacks because he's been treated as a main character for so long.

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14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

It's not that he can't work in a secondary role, but he lacks a lot of distinct traits to justify it. Like, he can play a secondary role to Rouge, but then what's his actual purpose in doing so? What traits does he bring to the table to support her as a main character? And I mean personality traits.

 

the classic pairing of an aloof wildcard with a stiff in the secondary role is what a lot of fictional duos are built on

including everyone's favorite ship rouge and topaz. you could do the same type of thing. shadow is even technically a cop. how about that?

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7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

the classic pairing of an aloof wildcard with a stiff in the secondary role is what a lot of fictional duos are built on

including everyone's favorite ship rouge and topaz. you could do the same type of thing. shadow is even technically a cop. how about that?

Man, I fucking miss Topaz. 

That can work though, as long Shadow can stay recognizably in-character, that's actually one of the easiest things 

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5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

the classic pairing of an aloof wildcard with a stiff in the secondary role is what a lot of fictional duos are built on

Shadow doesn't seem to bothered by Rouge's teasing that much.

Should he be a soft shell who actually does get bothered or someone who's serious but can easily throw jabs back at someone?

He usually responds to everyone with indifference/apathy, not letting any emotions show...

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3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Shadow doesn't seem to bothered by Rouge's teasing that much.

Should he be a soft shell who actually does get bothered or someone who's serious but can easily throw jabs back at someone?

He usually responds to everyone with indifference/apathy, not letting any emotions show...

This is my point; if you want him to be a character then you kind of need to give him some personality traits.

Indifference to everything doesn't really make for an interesting character.

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

the classic pairing of an aloof wildcard with a stiff in the secondary role is what a lot of fictional duos are built on

including everyone's favorite ship rouge and topaz. you could do the same type of thing. shadow is even technically a cop. how about that?

I feel like the only issue with this is that shadow's not just a stiff. He's another wild card depending on the situation. while i'm not fond of his current characterization. Rouge was the one in that dynamic who had their head on the straitest. Or at least is a lot less easy to anger.

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

 someone who's serious but can easily throw jabs back at someone?

This could play well, shadow has kinda been a guy who is not shy about telling someone about themselves and it plays into his personality. Turning his cold direct demeanor into more of a slightly playful sarcastic biting one works well. And he could self deprecate if he was like that. There's a lot of reads where shadow clearly has depression and wild insecurities, and you could play that up. A lot of " haha ...oh " moments with the audience.

edit: I feel like a good way to turn his personality into something good is to make so he just...really likes to fight. Don't make it sonic specific, and yeah. He's a weapon of war so I dunno, maybe there's something built in that makes him really like to fight or compete. his competitive nature turned towards sonic is uninteresting. However focused towards everyone , is a lot more interesting

 

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That's a trait that's still related to his backstory,  not necessarily something internal to the character.

 

Just...take his lack of a character and make that his personality. In that he's so goal oriented and distant that he actually does not function very well when he's not fighting and it makes him a bit insecure. If he's self assured about his abilities as the Ultimate Lifeform, then the natural thing is to put him in situations that take him out of his element. Just show that Shadow actually has no idea how to actually be...normal.

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3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

People are rigid because that's how Sega have chosen to characterize him. Shadow's biggest appearances almost always have him as one of the major players, so how else are people supposed to define him if that's what most of his existence has been?

With more creativity than they’ve been doing all these years. One thing I’ve noticed is that despite the number of times they’ve botched things is that Sega does listen to criticism—even if they’re not the best at heeding it.

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It's not that he can't work in a secondary role, but he lacks a lot of distinct traits to justify it. Like, he can play a secondary role to Rouge, but then what's his actual purpose in doing so? What traits does he bring to the table to support her as a main character? And I mean personality traits.

A more no-nonsense, and straight forward air of professionalism and extra muscle in the event things go wrong.

Unlike Rouge, Shadow is less interested in socializing—he’s not geared towards much of small talk, which is Rouge’s strong suit as a spy. But he’s damn good at getting to the point when he knows someone is wasting time, and he has enough power and potential fear to simply stand in front of someone and make a demand or threat if need be to get whatever it is they’re after and either get it then and there, start blowing things up until he gets it, or is forced to back down from getting it.

His reputation is the the point that he can just quietly stand by and be Rouge’s bodyguard on a mission that requires less blowing stuff up and more subtly, letting Rouge do the necessary talking and intel gathering, stepping in whenever Rouge requests him or they run out of options.

And none of that is inherent in a primary character—a primary can still do all of these things, but so can a secondary standing by until requested.

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Most of the time he's been in a secondary role, he doesn't really contribute much to the plot (which, to be fair, is most of the secondary characters nowadays and not just a problem exclusive to him).

That sounds like a problem with the person writing him than the character.

I’ve seen at least two arcs in Archie Sonic where Shadow played a secondary role and contributes either to the chaos or the solution. It’s possible for him to contribute as a secondary for others.

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Putting Shadow in a secondary role means you need to give him traits that befit a secondary character...which he kind of lacks because he's been treated as a main character for so long.

No, putting Shadow in a secondary role means you need to not put him front and center ahead of the character you’ve actually made the primary.

It not a matter of giving him traits, it a matter of balancing the amount of attention you give him. But the same gruff, stoic Shadow you put as a secondary character is still the same gruff, stoic Shadow you put as a primary—the stuff he does as the main character is the exact same stuff he can do in the background as a secondary character while the actual lead is doing the heavy lifting with the story.

Their traits don’t change (well, not necessarily), but the attention they’re given does. It would be no different to how the MCU makes Spider-man a secondary character in Civil War before making him the primary character in his own movies.

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21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That's a trait that's still related to his backstory,  not necessarily something internal to the character.

I think that's fine and also we can just make him liking to fight more integral. This is a hypothetical situation and a fictional character so, in this scenario I imagine we re a lot more willing to change things if the outcome is good. Or at least I am

 

21 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

Just...take his lack of a character and make that his personality. In that he's so goal oriented and distant that he actually does not function very well when he's not fighting and it makes him a bit insecure. If he's self assured about his abilities as the Ultimate Lifeform, then the natural thing is to put him in situations that take him out of his element. Just show that Shadow actually has no idea how to actually be...normal.

 

While I don't think that denotes a lack of character, that's a take i've personally talked about myself. I think having shadow not know how to do things...makes sense. He's a weird ass science experiement who had a grand total of like 3 social interactions before being put into a pod for 50 years. And when he was released he basically got turned into a fugitive then got put into a pod again and then got released again an upon doing so was thrust into another adventure.

There could be an entire scenario where rouge finds out he's just been keeping his money like...under his bed and she has to teach him like...what a bank is. Or ok not that because like, money doesn't exist in sonic land apperently. Ok scenario where someone asks shadow his favorite food, and he legitimately doesn't know. He describes some sort of space paste they ate on the arc, and then proceeds to explain he's basically been surviving off berries and barely eating. And they now need to explain to him what normal food is and get him food

This sort of characterization can open him to a lot of interesting character interactions.

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Should he be a soft shell who actually does get bothered or someone who's serious but can easily throw jabs back at someone?

Oh, I forgot a 3rd option: He takes all the things around him in stride and the humor only comes from how contrastingly serious he is.

Which you'd think is the obvious take given how vanilla this series is with character typing...

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16 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

Makes sense, that show was supposed to accompany games. With at least a more "action focused " tone that would make the characters look better in contrast to the jokier tone of the show.  And with those games failing you are left with the comedy show, which requires someone to be the butt of the joke. And shadow essentially having no defined personality in boom, it would make him look really bad. So I guess they kept him to episodes where he wasn't the main plot point. So you didn't have to think about why he was there too hard. He was a narrative vessel rather than a character

 

Which is why he tries to make two dimensions destroy each other.

15 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I would say I hate it, not just because of shadow. If this is the case, it shows how little they think of their franchise as a whole

" Oh hey some of our characters out of context are kind of weird so what do we do "

Make products that define them more, build a world build the characters show people why they have value and why people valued them in the first place. Its very clear the friend removal didn't ever help, so why not use this opportunity to actually show folks why they have value? It seems like a very unimaginative take and makes me feel like to use the analogy in that tumblr post. That that they aren't even attempting to drive the car, they just put it in neutral and is letting the force of the universe take them where they may

 

Yeah, they really need to go into doing that again, but on a more widespread scale. Then many of their characters would not only get development, but the world itself would expand and potentially open up more possibilities.

15 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

IDW tends to amplify his stubbornness—which I know is weird given how Archie!Shadow got into a fist fight with Knuckles over the Master Emerald’s safety, but despite that there was this sense that Shadow knew better and wasn’t so arrogant not to take advice from someone over something when in a serious situation.

 

To be fair, Knuckles threw the first punch and that was because he felt he couldn't trust them to just get rid of Eclipse without compromising everything he cares for.

Which between Shadow enforcing his approach of taking the Master Emerald to GUN, Rouge's prior thefts of it, and later Snively's presence among their ranks, he had  plenty reason to listen to his gut.

15 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

Okay, as much as I can understand how difficult writing is, I need to be blunt about this one—no, he’s not.

Shadow is as versatile as Sonic the Hedgehog, if not any character. His entire personality and demeanor doesn’t need to be changed for him to be in a secondary role—it’s a simple matter of just keeping his secondary position in mind!

Like, if you wanted to focus more on Rouge in a story and Shadow’s a secondary character, just keep the focus on Rouge! It’s not like he can be in a less intense role than it is people only associating him with said major roles.

People are inherently restricting him—not that his personality and demeanor should be disregarded or changed, but he’d be more flexible as his usual self if people weren’t so rigid about the character.

Well, I suppose that's true.

13 hours ago, Kuzu said:

People are rigid because that's how Sega have chosen to characterize him. Shadow's biggest appearances almost always have him as one of the major players, so how else are people supposed to define him if that's what most of his existence has been?

 

Essentially.

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

That's a trait that's still related to his backstory,  not necessarily something internal to the character.

Pretending I didn't just skim over that, isn't it still a hypothetical trait of his behavior?

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SEGA should simply set him aside if they aren't ready to write for him. Forces really shows their best attempt, and even then they don't comment on how Shadow has become the very thing he hates.

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10 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

No, putting Shadow in a secondary role means you need to not put him front and center ahead of the character you’ve actually made the primary.

It not a matter of giving him traits, it a matter of balancing the amount of attention you give him. But the same gruff, stoic Shadow you put as a secondary character is still the same gruff, stoic Shadow you put as a primary—the stuff he does as the main character is the exact same stuff he can do in the background as a secondary character while the actual lead is doing the heavy lifting with the story.

Their traits don’t change (well, not necessarily), but the attention they’re given does. It would be no different to how the MCU makes Spider-man a secondary character in Civil War before making him the primary character in his own movies.

Yes, they did that in early IDW arcs and Boom...and he's generally considered to be one of the worst characters there because of his characterization and lack of a defined role. So...

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5 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

SEGA should simply set him aside if they aren't ready to write for him. Forces really shows their best attempt, and even then they don't comment on how Shadow has become the very thing he hates.

Vaguely agree on the first. 

However, on the second, really?

7 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, they did that in early IDW arcs and Boom...and he's generally considered to be one of the worst characters there because of his characterization and lack of a defined role. So...

Oh, he has a defined role---it's just one that either relies on intensity to the exclusion of almost anything of interest or doesn't mean much outside of a meta standpoint.

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I don't really know if he's being treated better or worse than Silver, Big, and Vector are, three characters mainly used for their associated internet memes.

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2 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I don't really know if he's being treated better or worse than Silver, Big, and Vector are, three characters mainly used for their associated internet memes.

That's vaguely true for Big, but Silver and Vector? Really?  I don't think "it's no use" has ever came back, and "Find the computer room" was explicitly not used in Boom because none of the writing staff found it funny.

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11 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

I don't really know if he's being treated better or worse than Silver, Big, and Vector are, three characters mainly used for their associated internet memes.

He gets top billing whenever he shows up, but that's about it.

But I'm sure those three are used because of what they offer to the roster and/or the developers simply enjoying having them around. Also, Silver's a meme?

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11 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

 

Oh, he has a defined role---it's just one that either relies on intensity to the exclusion of almost anything of interest or doesn't mean much outside of a meta standpoint.

And that role is?

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4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And that role is?

I think I summed IDW well enough. As for Boom, he's the edgy hedgehog with a lot of pride that also happens to be really popular outside the show.

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52 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, Knuckles threw the first punch and that was because he felt he couldn't trust them to just get rid of Eclipse without compromising everything he cares for.

Which between Shadow enforcing his approach of taking the Master Emerald to GUN, Rouge's prior thefts of it, and later Snively's presence among their ranks, he had  plenty reason to listen to his gut.

This is a situation I would to use to advocate for the idea that well written shadow and other characters make other characters better because it forces them to think. At the end of the situation he came out realizing that shadow could have kept fighting and there were greater things at stake that his pride. And even after that and went and thought about whether what he was doing was right. Ontop of that he was forced to think about who shadow was and...got him. He got him and like felt really bad. And then to wrap this all up in a bow this situation probably got one of the most well written amy scenes ever with her pumping up knuckles.

This situation wouldn't have happened if shadow wasn't written in a way that's different than everyone else. And it caused other characters to have to be written on his level and they were just better. He can be used to challenge characters and make them think.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I think I summed IDW well enough. As for Boom, he's the edgy hedgehog with a lot of pride that also happens to be really popular outside the show.

Then that's a problem;  if he's only being used because of his popularity and not because of anything he can actually offer to the setting, then its the same as writers basically admitting that they have no actual use for him and just throwing darts at a board.

 

And CSS already pointed out a good role for him as the cold and pragmatic one to the more upbeat good guys, but then I don't know how well that role fits in this type of series. It opened the can of worms of why "Sonic never kills Eggman" but can't actually give a satisfying answer to that question.

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40 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, they did that in early IDW arcs and Boom...and he's generally considered to be one of the worst characters there because of his characterization and lack of a defined role. So...

Eh that has nothing to do with that

He lacks character because he was supposed to have more to do in that game, the game had to be forced onto the wii u along with numerous development problems that sprouted up because of it and were present before that caused what was essentially a not finished game to hit the market. Sonic boom landed with a wet thud and not even a middling TV show could save. Nor was that TV show up to task to basically introduce you to why that character exists that is what the games were supposed to do.

And they failed trying to and before they could actually execute that among many other things, there are too many failures to blame boom shadow on a " Secondary position" these things exist in a context

As for IDW, executive meddling and to be quite blunt Ian's habbits. He could have told a whole story about sonic and shadow disagreeing on something that ISN'T MURDER and have them work together at the end to show some sort of dynamic. Instead he chose actual murder in which he cannot inherently have shadow argue his entire point because...there would be a character advocating for murder in a children's comic book and the protagonist would have to actually hear him out. Against a character who will always come back, which makes the character arguing for the murder infinitely right.  So shadow has to look crazeh and they laugh at him at the end. This is followed buy " shadow beats up the guy , oops he fucked up " and "We can't actually even characterize shadow correctly due to outside influences but I want a shadow zombie so i'll yet him in there anyway "

The problem isn't he's in a secondary position. The problem is executive meddling and the author having this desire to write stories way above the station of what this comic kind of should be and what sega wants sonic to be now and then being told " No " on characterization stuff and having to fit him in a mold his vision of shadow wasn't fit for.

Shadow can work not as the direct focus fine,to even suggest this is weird in a world where super heroes exist and show up in each others books often. You just don't have them as the focus. This is the failure of an overbearing IP owner and a writer who seems to only adapt once things are far too late

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And CSS already pointed out a good role for him as the cold and pragmatic one to the more upbeat good guys, but then I don't know how well that role fits in this type of series. It opened the can of worms of why "Sonic never kills Eggman" but can't actually give a satisfying answer to that question.

You don't have to do that. There's plenty of stuff you can throw shadow at being a more pragmatic dude that works. I want to mention again, the knuckles and shadow arcs in the last book. Where shadow came out of the other end fine but with a bit more perspective, but knuckles came out a more interesting and with more depth than he arrived.

There are so many situations besides " Why isn't eggman dead " you can have this character be put against as someone pragmatic.

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But that's putting the onus of characterization on the OTHER characters, not Shadow himself. Their reactions to him are what shape the situation. I'm generally talking about the other way around, a situation that forces SHADOW to change and adapt.

For Boom; the rest of the cast do not need any context to their being, they simply are. Nobody asks  where and who Taam Sonic are, because that's not the point of the show. Its a comedy show first and foremost and focuses on how the cast react to different situations and play off each other. That's not something that you can easily slip Shadow into without it coming off as weird since well...he's never been that type of character. So he simply exists, not even as a character, but a source of conflict.

 

 

But yes, most of the blame is on that none of the writers or higher ups really understand what to do with him period.

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1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Yes, they did that in early IDW arcs and Boom...and he's generally considered to be one of the worst characters there because of his characterization and lack of a defined role. So...

So Sega need to stop being so restrictive about him. It’s already been established by Ian that Shadow’s that way because they’re being more strict about his portrayal, because given how he’s wrote him in the previous comic he didn’t have this issue where they also did this without his arrogance being flanderized.

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