Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[DabigRG]

Which poignant line now?

[Kuzu]

Like I said, it's not the concept of him that I'm against. But having both an ill-fitting playstyle that completely goes against the nature of the series in addition to playing no actual role in the plot just kind of doomed him from the very beginning. Sure, he probably was designed to be a breather for the player, but lack of polish made him the most intrusive of the bunch and therefore became one of the series` least liked characters. 

That's why him, of all characters in SA1, would need a complete rework so that he actually serves his purpose as a breather for the player. If he's meant to be a breather, then he needs to be as unobstructive as possible otherwise the hate for him that has mostly dissipated will come back with a vengeance. 

[E-122-Psi]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Which poignant line now?

"If something happens now, there's no point in me rescuing you. I don't know who would bother to save us both."

From what I know the Japanese script only had the first line, but the last one makes Big seem way more poignant in a subtle way. He is alone, of course he would persist with Froggy because he is his one companion. He doesn't think anyone else would care the least about them, which makes it only more effective when Sonic just instantly offers to help out.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Which poignant line now?

About how if something were to happen to Big, nobody would come to save him or Froggy and then is immediately proven wrong when Sonic does come to save him in the Chaos 6 boss fight. 

[DabigRG]

6 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

"If we crash there's no point in me rescuing you. I don't know who would bother to save us both."

From what I know the Japanese script only had the first line, but it makes Big seem way more poignant in a subtle way. He is alone, of course he would persist with Froggy because he is his one companion. He doesn't think anyone else would care the least about them, which makes it only more effective when Sonic just instantly offers to help out.

.

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

About how if something were to happen to Big, nobody would come to save him or Froggy and then is immediately proven wrong when Sonic does come to save him in the Chaos 6 boss fight. 

.

Oh yeah, I thought that might've been the one.

It is kinda neat that such a kind simpleton reflects doulry on how in over his head he is after having his days unexpected upended. Also, don't the other characters say relatively little during the adventure fields?

[E-122-Psi]

I'm going to be honest, I bought into that small lamenting little bit of introspective way more than I did most of Tails' story. While the latter has the seeds for the best arc in that game, the issue was that it was the game that pivoted Tails talking almost completely in exposition and SAYING what sort of characterisation he had.

[Kuzu]

I got one. I actually liked Eggman a lot in Colors, the emphasis on his comical traits is consistent with the tone the game was going for and he still provided a thematically appropriate final boss by using the same powers that you've been using the entire game. 

 

Things got worse in Generations, Lost World, and Forces tho...

[E-122-Psi]

45 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I got one. I actually liked Eggman a lot in Colors, the emphasis on his comical traits is consistent with the tone the game was going for and he still provided a thematically appropriate final boss by using the same powers that you've been using the entire game. 

 

Things got worse in Generations, Lost World, and Forces tho...

I think Colours did a fair few things good with Eggman, including setting up the dynamic between him and Orbot and Cubot, giving a mix of reckless villain, comedic foil and straight man. The humour isn't exactly spot on here but the characterisations seep through well enough (except maybe Cubot who wouldn't be quite fully formed until Lost World and Boom).

I also like how they demonstrate Eggman's machinations here, it's silly and theme park-ish superficially to fit his silly persona (plus those intercoms, one of the better sources of gags here) but we still get that cutscene showing the horrible repercussions of what he does and even more so in the DS version where mutated Mommy Wisp is revealed in the end as a leftover collateral damage of his plan.

Also how it all literally blows up in the most extravagant and disastrous way possible in the end perfectly fits in with how 2D Eggman's zeal always backfired horribly onto him (though this time we also get the addition of a comical stinger).

 

Truthfully I love how the modern era games make Eggman feel more like THE threat, not a Team Rocket-ish wannabe that's always in over his head even when competent, it's the story execution is always so underwhelming. Still they prove Eggman can be the big bad guy and still keep all of his silly qualities and machinations, you don't have to be some terrifying kaiju with zero humorous qualities to be top dog.

[Kuzu]

I'm on the fence about Orbot and Cubot; it's nice that Eggman has some henchmen he can bounce off of, but I also feel like their presence undermines his credibility. It's fine in Colors, but in Lost World, they're constantly taking the piss out of him which just deflates whenever he tries to actually be threatening.  

I think they're much better utilized in Boom where Eggman clearly treats them like shit; it serves to make Eggman even more of a horrible person, and it garners sympathy for Orbot and Cubot while still being comical. 

[E-122-Psi]

12 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm on the fence about Orbot and Cubot; it's nice that Eggman has some henchmen he can bounce off of, but I also feel like their presence undermines his credibility. It's fine in Colors, but in Lost World, they're constantly taking the piss out of him which just deflates whenever he tries to actually be threatening.  

I think they're much better utilized in Boom where Eggman clearly treats them like shit; it serves to make Eggman even more of a horrible person, and it garners sympathy for Orbot and Cubot while still being comical. 

Yeah I think that's the thing, in Colours and Boom, Orbot and Cubot aren't exactly obedient but Eggman dishes back the vitriol ten times. Hell when Orbot gets too into Sonic's snarking, Eggman dishes back with 'Well if you're smarter then YOU can take care of this one'. A far cry from Unleashed where Eggman just seems to be ineffectual against proto-Orbot's endless potshots, it's kinda like the Quark and Lawrence dynamic in Ratchet and Clank, he's meant to be a threat but then you wonder why this guy gets away with talking to him like shit with barely any retaliation.

Plus I liked how poor Orbot seemed to be genuinely trying to impress the doctor many times in Boom, but the guy's just too self absorbed an asshole to appreciate it (most of the time, unlike say AoSth Robotnik, he has SOME redeeming moments with his henchman, especially since they're the nearest he has to proper friends), you do get whenever Orbot finally lashes out or acts passive aggressive, being loyal hasn't gotten him any respect, he's almost like an unappreciated housewife. Granted I suppose it works in Lost World since most of the time Eggman isn't in the villain role anymore, he's reduced to working with his enemies so it works to show how low he's stooped.

Cubot is kinda in between anyway, he's not really impudent, just a dimwit. He tries to do what he's told but most of the time he's just a nimrod who needs Orbot to direct him.

[Sonario]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I got one. I actually liked Eggman a lot in Colors, the emphasis on his comical traits is consistent with the tone the game was going for and he still provided a thematically appropriate final boss by using the same powers that you've been using the entire game. 

 

Things got worse in Generations, Lost World, and Forces tho...

I liked Colors Eggman too, but I also liked Lost World Eggman. Sure he got the rug pulled out from under him and was overshadowed by the Deadly Six for the most part, but having him be part of the heroes for a while let us see sides of him that we don't see often. First off, we see how he willingly joins his worst enemy to prevent the world's total destruction, showing that while he's a cruel conqueror, he's not a heartless destroyer. He also gets an intimidating moment threatening the Deadly Six, saying that he would burn their world, destroy everything they love and make them watch. Reminds you that for all of his goofiness, he can still be menacing like in Tails's story from SA1. We also see the duality in his character when he casually considers destroying Lost Hex to get the Deadly Six, collateral damage be damned, but then immediately saves Tails from danger even if it didn't matter to his plans, even saying he's a complicated guy afterwards.

Finally, he ends up taking control of things at the very end, snatching back the villain role from the D6 once they've been disposed of. This to me, was one of my favorite moments. It showed that he's learned from his previous failures involving Chaos, Space Colony ARK, Neo Metal Sonic and the likes, where he was overshadowed by greater threats and lost control of things. So this time, even after losing control of the D6, he quickly improvised a plan to manipulate the heroes into helping him get rid of them, only to take back control of things and come out on top at the end. Sure, he still lost, as villains always do, but it showed that he's progressed from his days of being manipulated or betrayed and now he makes sure he's the one calling the shots. This whole progression reminds me of Bowser's in the Mario and Luigi games. Bowser was sidelined and used as a puppet for the real villains for the first two games and was the victim of a bigger villain's conquest in the third one, in which he had to unknowingly work with the heroes to take back his kingdom. But in the fourth one, he's the one who manipulates and backstabs the other villain to become the final ultimate threat, pulling a move that really made him stand out as a competent villain after learning from his mistakes. And that's a lot like what Eggman manages to do in this one, which is something I really enjoyed.

...sorry for the wordy post again. I really need to control myself.

[E-122-Psi]

I like how there was some actual oneupsmanship between him and the D6 in Lost World, that they both had to be opportunistic to get the upper hand on one another. This to me added not only a more savvy tint to Eggman but also made the D6 more fallible bad guys, not just generic doomsday characters. I like villain rivalries where there isn't a huge hierarchy difference and neither of them get they are just as clownish and arrogant as the other.

I definitely think Eggman works better with associates of some sort. While I like SA1's story it bugs me that Eggman doesn't really have anyone to bounce off of when not fighting Sonic, Chaos is just a silent force of nature, and the E-Series, though being able to talk and having vague sentience, don't really converse with him as much as just stand and listen (I think Gamma only talks to him outright in one cutscene, which is admittedly a shame since it was kind of a cool 'stoic butler' moment). This is one thing I admit Sonic X handled better by adding Decoe and Bocoe and at least a couple comical interactions between him and the E-Series.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, Sonario said:

I liked Colors Eggman too, but I also liked Lost World Eggman. Sure he got the rug pulled out from under him and was overshadowed by the Deadly Six for the most part, but having him be part of the heroes for a while let us see sides of him that we don't see often.

This whole progression reminds me of Bowser's in the Mario and Luigi games. Bowser was sidelined and used as a puppet for the real villains for the first two games and was the victim of a bigger villain's conquest in the third one, in which he had to unknowingly work with the heroes to take back his kingdom. But in the fourth one, he's the one who manipulates and backstabs the other villain to become the final ultimate threat, pulling a move that really made him stand out as a competent villain after learning from his mistakes. And that's a lot like what Eggman manages to do in this one, which is something I really enjoyed.

 

Part of ya wonders if it's actually the other way around for not only them, but Sonic and Tails as well.

Eggman's pretty much the best character in that game since in addition to already being great and his characterization fitting the writing style of the last decade, you got to see numerous sides of him that generally felt appropriate and well done.  Hell, even the Deadly Six(or at least Zavok) were arguably at their most interesting in play not when they're draining Sonic's World or sometimes challenging the blue pest himself, but for their tense interactions and almost understandable motivations towards their conqueror.

[Kuzu]

I feel Eggman is the best not by virtue of his own character, but because Sonic & Tails are just that much worse than him. 

[DabigRG]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I feel Eggman is the best not by virtue of his own character, but because Sonic & Tails are just that much worse than him. 

That too. I genuinely avoided just saying that.

That said, I don't think Sonic was really bad. He was about on par with Zavok or maybe Zik, if I had to make a vague metric.

[WhatHasHappenedtoMyDreams]

I feel shadow and his fans are underestimating the contempt sonic team has for the character and thus acknowledging the flaws he has when being a fundamental necessity to the main image prominence of current sonic projects like Mania and the new Sonic projects. He has been stuck as a doom magnet since his game with sonic team deliberately under selling his character with less appearances than amy rose and treating his story based narrative as a expendable widget based narratives in one of many of the sonic main plotline, thus shadow having trouble fitting in in light hearted or heavy entertainment based stories. Thus fans have trouble understanding how little shadow makes an impact to sonic purist such as the character has fallen from possible main staple rival and core mainstay on tails and knuckles level, to an optional rival or dlc position to sonic because its proven theres little for shadow to do be be a niche as another sonic clone instead of a character that has focus in developing or moving the games story with the main lead.

[E-122-Psi]

37 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That too. I genuinely avoided just saying that.

That said, I don't think Sonic was really bad. He was about on par with Zavok or maybe Zik, if I had to make a vague metric.

I appreciate they TRIED to get a more flawed and self aware Sonic there. I mean the 'Sonic is reckless and screws up' plot line is common in other medias but not really the games, he actually tends to not be undermined all that much, which I think is something kinda necessary to his cocksure persona every once in a while (even if I'm glad they don't do it NON STOP like some of said medias do).

Tails was....pretty bad, but I still appreciate that after so long they were trying to grasp a Tails that wasn't a bland exposition machine.

I like to feel that Lost Worlds was sort of the primordial stepping stone for what Boom done more competently in terms of deconstructing these characters. It's just a shame the actual games didn't take the same refinement steps.

[Kuzu]

29 minutes ago, WhatHasHappenedtoMyDreams said:

I feel shadow and his fans are underestimating the contempt sonic team has for the character and thus acknowledging the flaws he has when being a fundamental necessity to the main image prominence of current sonic projects like Mania and the new Sonic projects. He has been stuck as a doom magnet since his game with sonic team deliberately under selling his character with less appearances than amy rose and treating his story based narrative as a expendable widget based narratives in one of many of the sonic main plotline, thus shadow having trouble fitting in in light hearted or heavy entertainment based stories. Thus fans have trouble understanding how little shadow makes an impact to sonic purist such as the character has fallen from possible main staple rival and core mainstay on tails and knuckles level, to an optional rival or dlc position to sonic because its proven theres little for shadow to do be be a niche as another sonic clone instead of a character that has focus in developing or moving the games story with the main lead.

Please stop giving Shadow fans a bad name.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

I appreciate they TRIED to get a more flawed and self aware Sonic there. I mean the 'Sonic is reckless and screws up' plot line is common in other medias but not really the games, he actually tends to not be undermined all that much, which I think is something kinda necessary to his cocksure persona every once in a while (even if I'm glad they don't do it NON STOP like some of said medias do).

Tails was....pretty bad, but I still appreciate that after so long they were trying to grasp a Tails that wasn't a bland exposition machine.

I like to feel that Lost Worlds was sort of the primordial stepping stone for what Boom done more competently in terms of deconstructing these characters. It's just a shame the actual games didn't take the same refinement steps.

Oh yeah, that's what I feel as well.

There was an interesting hook in how his haste to defend those who are being oppressed actually making things worse for once and his increasing guilt given the damage that's resulting from it--a neat nugget indeed. 

The issue, like a number of things in Lost World, is how the scene to scene flow kinda lets it down to being sorta okay or a bit of an informed wrong.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Oh yeah, that's what I feel as well.

There was an interesting hook in how his haste to defend those who are being oppressed actually making things worse for once and his increasing guilt given the damage that's resulting from it--a neat nugget indeed. 

The issue, like a number of things in Lost World, is how the scene to scene flow kinda lets it down to being sorta okay or a bit of an informed wrong.

Yeah, I like these more introspective stories that look into the characters and their defects and chemistries, it's just the Pontac era wasn't particularly competently written. They were definitely good for setting up 'building blocks' helpful to the universe but execution was bare bones and slapdash. I do prefer this attempt over the over formal and pretentious writing of some of the Japanese-written stories (which in fairness often aren't that competently written either) but it does feel like a simple enough story to be hard to screw up, especially seeing how other medias like Boom often took stuff from it and...did it properly.

Still I like there's an attempt at a true 'actions have consequences' plot with Lost World's story, something I sometimes don't feel with other character arcs in the past (especially the 'anti heroes' of the cast who always get a slap on the wrist at worst). True Knuckles often screws up by getting tricked, but I don't see a lot of instances Knuckles laments on this and tries to make amends, he just gets mocked by Sonic and the story continues. It's not really a trait that gets a lot of introspective.

[Kuzu]

31 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah, I like these more introspective stories that look into the characters and their defects and chemistries, it's just the Pontac era wasn't particularly competently written. They were definitely good for setting up 'building blocks' helpful to the universe but execution was bare bones and slapdash. I do prefer this attempt over the over formal and pretentious writing of some of the Japanese-written stories (which in fairness often aren't that competently written either) but it does feel like a simple enough story to be hard to screw up, especially seeing how other medias like Boom often took stuff from it and...did it properly.

Still I like there's an attempt at a true 'actions have consequences' plot with Lost World's story, something I sometimes don't feel with other character arcs in the past (especially the 'anti heroes' of the cast who always get a slap on the wrist at worst). True Knuckles often screws up by getting tricked, but I don't see a lot of instances Knuckles laments on this and tries to make amends, he just gets mocked by Sonic and the story continues. It's not really a trait that gets a lot of introspective.

Was this really necessary?

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, WhatHasHappenedtoMyDreams said:

I feel shadow and his fans are underestimating the contempt sonic team has for the character and thus acknowledging the flaws he has when being a fundamental necessity to the main image prominence of current sonic projects like Mania and the new Sonic projects. He has been stuck as a doom magnet since his game with sonic team deliberately under selling his character with less appearances than amy rose and treating his story based narrative as a expendable widget based narratives in one of many of the sonic main plotline, thus shadow having trouble fitting in in light hearted or heavy entertainment based stories. Thus fans have trouble understanding how little shadow makes an impact to sonic purist such as the character has fallen from possible main staple rival and core mainstay on tails and knuckles level, to an optional rival or dlc position to sonic because its proven theres little for shadow to do be be a niche as another sonic clone instead of a character that has focus in developing or moving the games story with the main lead.

Hm...

Considering Amy hasn't really been in that many post06 games until Generations, I'm not sure about that. 

[E-122-Psi]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Was this really necessary?

I'm sorry but, besides the occasional exception, I feel like too many of the games written in Sonic Team's locale tend to be kinda exposition heavy or kinda miss the mark on developing a character arc by trying too hard to be an 'epic'. As I mentioned before things like Tails' arc in SA1 could be effective if they didn't spend more time trying to TELL you what Tails' character was instead of demonstrate it, and guys like Shadow and Rouge feel like they could murder someone on the street and still never face repercussions or even just a mild change in treatment from the other characters. Now this is not saying just Japanese Sonic writers have this issue as well or Lost Worlds is the better direction, just I kinda like Pontac were one of the first to try a more on the mark redemption arc where the character has a defining flaw and shows legit remorse for screwing up, even if they do bottle it in several other areas.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm sorry but, besides the occasional exception, I feel like too many of the games written in Sonic Team's locale tend to be kinda exposition heavy or kinda miss the mark on developing a character arc by trying too hard to be an 'epic'. As I mentioned before things like Tails' arc in SA1 could be effective if they didn't spend more time trying to TELL you what Tails' character was instead of demonstrate it, and guys like Shadow and Rouge feel like they could murder someone on the street and still never face repercussions or even just a mild change in treatment from the other characters. Now this is not saying just Japanese Sonic writers have this issue as well or Lost Worlds is the better direction, just I kinda like Pontac were one of the first to try a more on the mark redemption arc where the character has a defining flaw and shows legit remorse for screwing up, even if they do bottle it in several other areas.

I don't care if you don't like them, but there's no reason to call them "pretentious" when you're trying to praise Pontaff era stories. If you're gonna praise their stories, then leave it at that. 

 

Otherwise, me and you are going to have to fight and I will spend all day telling you about the wonders of Japanese writing >>>>>:(((((

[E-122-Psi]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

I don't care if you don't like them, but there's no reason to call them "pretentious" when you're trying to praise Pontaff era stories. If you're gonna praise their stories, then leave it at that. 

 

Otherwise, me and you are going to have to fight and I will spend all day telling you about the wonders of Japanese writing >>>>>:(((((

Well in perfect fairness you were the one who first added superfluous potshots to the modern era games while praising Colours' Eggman, and it's hardly your first either, I don't have a problem with that but saying me doing the same to another work is an unfair low blow is hypocritical. People are gonna use comparisons when discussing what they like and don't like about the series.