Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well in perfect fairness you were the one who first added superfluous potshots to the modern era games while praising Colours' Eggman, and it's hardly your first either, I don't have a problem with that but saying me doing the same to another work is an unfair low blow is hypocritical. People are gonna use comparisons when discussing what they like and don't like about the series.

I acknowledge that, and it wasn't my intention to make modern era games seem lower; like you said, I was just making a point of comparison. And I did acknowledge that I liked Colors and just thought that the way some modern era games was flawed in the way they executed their themes, not that the direction itself is inherently bad. I've made peace with the modern era of games, I mostly just criticize them on a case by case basis nowadays rather than in principle. 

But we do not slander Sonic Adventure in this house

[DabigRG]

I'm at a gander of how dark that comment about Shadow and Rouge is.

[E-122-Psi]

8 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I acknowledge that, and it wasn't my intention to make modern era games seem lower; like you said, I was just making a point of comparison. And I did acknowledge that I liked Colors and just thought that the way some modern era games was flawed in the way they executed their themes, not that the direction itself is inherently bad. I've made peace with the modern era of games, I mostly just criticize them on a case by case basis nowadays rather than in principle. 

But we do not slander Sonic Adventure in this house

Hey hey, we had just previously had a discussion where I defended THE most infamous element of Sonic Adventure. And you can probably tell just from my account name how I feel about Gamma.

[Shadowlax]

Hmm I don't really don't think you can blame rouge for much. Even her involvement in sa2 was that of a secret agent. I guess you could be right in the comics, She kinda recently inadvertently help a zombie apocalypse happen. So we can see if anyone says anything about that. Otherwise rouge is never really the one to instigate a lot.

Shadow, sa2 but from my understanding his memories were being manipulated. Outside of that, he did infact murder many people on the street. His alien brethren trying to destroy the planet , and the cops trying to stop him from doing that. He also tried to kill eggman. I don't that's punishment worthy.

Who else is anti hero enough to get punished really?

[E-122-Psi]

Rouge is.....hard to define. She has two rather mutually exclusive goals. She's basically an enabled criminal because she does some good deeds on the side. I feel like the writers just kinda figured this was how anti heroes work, jerks who get no comeuppance because they still do the odd good thing. I mean Eggman's 'a complicated guy' too, but they seem to be under no doubt he's primarily a villain.

Maybe this is why later games just skipped the formalities and made Rouge more just a full time agent. They just didn't know how to balance these two agendas. Shadow kinda ended up the same, now he's just kind of a hero whose a bit of a jerk about it (though Forces I will give credit to showing consequences for the jerk bit plot wise, it is apparently still a key part of his character).

[DabigRG]

The worst you really give Rouge honestly is the fact that her playing along lead to Prison Island blowing up, Eggman blowing up half of the moon, and in the Archie comics, trying to keep the Sol Emerald despite hearing the consequence.

She was technically just following orders or at least completing a mission, but she was still causing at least Flying Dog to die and might've been leaving Tails and Amy to potentially be killed on the Ark since Eggman and Shadow weren't playing around at that point. 

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

The worst you really give Rouge honestly is the fact that her playing along lead to Prison Island blowing up, Eggman blowing up half of the moon, and in the Archie comics, trying to keep the Sol Emerald despite hearing the consequence.

She was technically just following orders or at least completing a mission, but she was still causing at least Flying Dog to die and might've been leaving Tails and Amy to potentially be killed on the Ark since Eggman and Shadow weren't playing around at that point. 

Also being an abusive asshole to her Egg Pawn team mate in Free Riders.

I do wonder if Rouge being a thief was also meant to be a sign of GUN still being corrupt at that point.

[DabigRG]

25 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Also being an abusive asshole to her Egg Pawn team mate in Free Riders.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Geez.

25 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I do wonder if Rouge being a thief was also meant to be a sign of GUN still being corrupt at that point.

Possibly. We're never told when Commander Tower earned his rank and considering what a fustercluck the events of SA2 were, his predecessor likely had to take his leave. Especially once all that stuff around the Robotnik's got out.

Rouge basically got a reprieve because she proved that stuff on behalf of the President in the first place.

[E-122-Psi]

The 4Kids era (and counting Free Riders, some of it's leftovers) was a kinda rough spot for the Sonic cast's handling at times. It took a lot of the exaggeration Sonic X did. Shadow and Rouge flip flopped more erratically between all out nasty and evil or just good guys with rough qualities, Amy became a yandere and just rude and violent tempered in general besides it, even Cream got some of those 'secretly bitchy' gags taint her role in Rush. The glaring thing about this was that, in spite of this era's more multiple perspective story format, they were often very bad at showing consequences for character flaws. Very little reigned them in unless they were a butt monkey by default.. This was kinda true to the anime itself really, which in hindsight was pretty uneven in characterising and could be rather mean spirited.

[DabigRG]

7 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

The 4Kids era (and counting Free Riders, some of it's leftovers) was a kinda rough spot for the Sonic cast's handling at times. It took a lot of the exaggeration Sonic X did. Shadow and Rouge flip flopped more erratically between all out nasty and evil or just good guys with rough qualities, Amy became a yandere and just rude and violent tempered in general besides it, even Cream got some of those 'secretly bitchy' gags taint her role in Rush. The glaring thing about this was that, in spite of this era's more multiple perspective story format, they were often very bad at showing consequences for character flaws. Very little reigned them in unless they were a butt monkey by default.. This was kinda true to the anime itself really, which in hindsight was pretty uneven in characterising and could be rather mean spirited.

To be fair to Cream, her tendency to say unintentionally rude things was a thing in Heroes as well. She had slightly better reason and awareness of it, though.

But yeah, it is interesting timing. Where the Japanese writers involved with X?

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair to Cream, her tendency to say unintentionally rude things was a thing in Heroes as well. She had slightly better reason and awareness of it, though.

Yeah but the X era is when she started with naked passive aggressive insults outright. Same for other elements like Amy's temper becoming psychotic. The moderation to keep likability was gone and even worse it was trickling into other medias and even the games.

It's actually for this reason I found Archie Amy to be kind of unpleasant a depiction at the time. I know people credit that interpretation for making her more competent, but the Sonic X type 'scary tsundere girl' humour just didn't work out at all in the more serious narrative. She basically got depicted like the team's crazy guard dog, which I don't think fit her. It might have worked if they'd kept it to comical opponents (you know, like most animes do with this trope) and we saw more imposing characters no sell her 'rage modes', but I rarely remember that happening too often besides Scourge (and even that was just to foreshadow his own even more flanderized take on Amy). Seeing her with this constant "menacing" undertone and reducing guys like Monkey Khan, Iron King and Patch to simpering bitches when even Sonic couldn't got obnoxious after a while and downplayed her human qualities. Even Knuckles at his most hot headed isn't this bad (or if he is, others are willing to deck him quiet).

Post reboot dumbed this down, but that was when the medias mostly downplayed her temper altogether, which I think made her blander. How hard can it be to get a balance? She's a kid. She's a moody little brat. Even Heroes pin pointed that.

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

But yeah, it is interesting timing. Where the Japanese writers involved with X?

I dunno, it might have just been like Boom where they were willing to let some elements seep in to promote the show. I do think the games team did have some close watch on the anime though. Wasn't Cream going to be anime exclusive originally?

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah but the X era is when she started with naked passive aggressive insults outright. Same for other elements like Amy's temper becoming psychotic. The moderation to keep likability was gone and even worse it was trickling into other medias and even the games.

It's actually for this reason I found Archie Amy to be kind of unpleasant a depiction at the time. I know people credit that interpretation for making her more competent, but the Sonic X type 'scary tsundere girl' humour just didn't work out at all in the more serious narrative. She basically got depicted like the team's crazy guard dog, which I don't think fit her. It might have worked if they'd kept it to comical opponents (you know, like most animes do with this trope) and we saw more imposing characters no sell her 'rage modes', but I rarely remember that happening too often besides Scourge (and even that was just to foreshadow his own even more flanderized take on Amy). Seeing her with this constant "menacing" undertone and reducing guys like Monkey Khan, Iron King and Patch to simpering bitches when even Sonic couldn't got obnoxious after a while and downplayed her human qualities. Even Knuckles at his most hot headed isn't this bad (or if he is, others are willing to deck him quiet).

Post reboot dumbed this down, but that was when the medias mostly downplayed her temper altogether, which I think made her blander. How hard can it be to get a balance? She's a kid. She's a moody little brat. Even Heroes pin pointed that.

You literally just criticized her for being a moody little brat in X whenever she threw a temper tantrum...

 

I've mostly gotten over it; but Amy's character is rooted in Japanese customs and personality traits, which means yes, she will take most of them from various Anime. But this went over people's heads and they hated her for being "a bitch"  so they just exercised all of those traits from her to make her more appealing to Americans.

 

Its not really about balance; her character is just valued differently depending on the region. Because fun fact, fans from Japan I have spoken too never had an issue with her X incarnation and even found her kind of cute. And sure enough, X is arguably her most popular incarnation for how much they laid on the ship teasing between her and Sonic. 

[StaticMania]

Unsurprisingly, those traits were going to be amped up in a cartoon because that's just what happens.

Anime in particular are bad about using those traits and making the traits "the character" instead of the characters having those traits.

Amy's also jokey, so she needs to be that as well. Comic Relief.

[Kuzu]

Yea, that's kind of the thing too; Anime humor is mostly character-driven and Amy herself was mostly treated as comic relief, hence her traits were exaggerated for comedic effect. She wasn't a character meant to be taken seriously, especially later on. 

[E-122-Psi]

34 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You literally just criticized her for being a moody little brat in X whenever she threw a temper tantrum...

 

I've mostly gotten over it; but Amy's character is rooted in Japanese customs and personality traits, which means yes, she will take most of them from various Anime. But this went over people's heads and they hated her for being "a bitch"  so they just exercised all of those traits from her to make her more appealing to Americans.

 

Its not really about balance; her character is just valued differently depending on the region. Because fun fact, fans from Japan I have spoken too never had an issue with her X incarnation and even found her kind of cute. And sure enough, X is arguably her most popular incarnation for how much they laid on the ship teasing between her and Sonic. 

No I criticised her for being a perpetual 'demonhead' gag in X, overdoing that aspect of her and making her a psycho everyone was terrified of (compared to say Adventure/Heroes Amy who just throws the odd tantrum and is openly labelled a 'little brat' by the likes of Vector). Granted they did do ineffectual Amy temper gags in X as well though that was a factor in itself. After a while, they just made Amy NOTHING BUT a 'lol, nasty tempered bitch' gag who cared more about LOOKING LIKE a compassionate sweet girl than having the genuine credentials of one. With Archie I guess it was something that just didn't translate as well into the more serious and western focused story, even with better balanced of some redeeming qualities with her there.

Like, Knuckles has 'demonhead' moments as well (Mania Adventures is a good example) but I don't think it defines him as badly as Amy did in that era. I think it definitely helps that Knuckles was undermined way more than Amy, there's more of a hubris involved that keeps him fallible. If Knuckles is a rabid guard dog as well, he's a doofy Looney Tunes guard dog that someone bitch slaps and tells to 'AHHHH SHADDUP!!!'.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Yeah but the X era is when she started with naked passive aggressive insults outright. Same for other elements like Amy's temper becoming psychotic. The moderation to keep likability was gone and even worse it was trickling into other medias and even the games.

Oh?

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

It's actually for this reason I found Archie Amy to be kind of unpleasant a depiction at the time. I know people credit that interpretation for making her more competent, but the Sonic X type 'scary tsundere girl' humour just didn't work out at all in the more serious narrative. She basically got depicted like the team's crazy guard dog, which I don't think fit her. It might have worked if they'd kept it to comical opponents (you know, like most animes do with this trope) and we saw more imposing characters no sell her 'rage modes', but I rarely remember that happening too often besides Scourge (and even that was just to foreshadow his own even more flanderized take on Amy). Seeing her with this constant "menacing" undertone and reducing guys like Monkey Khan, Iron King and Patch to simpering bitches when even Sonic couldn't got obnoxious after a while and downplayed her human qualities. Even Knuckles at his most hot headed isn't this bad (or if he is, others are willing to deck him quiet).

It's been a while, so I honestly don't remember much of it.  I seem to remember the Iron King simply being bit frustrated that a little girl is capable of matching his might.

Patch is a murderous coward anyway, though.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Post reboot dumbed this down, but that was when the medias mostly downplayed her temper altogether, which I think made her blander. How hard can it be to get a balance? She's a kid. She's a moody little brat. Even Heroes pin pointed that.

Eh, it's seems like a tendency for them to take things people complain about and steer a little too hard away from them.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

I dunno, it might have just been like Boom where they were willing to let some elements seep in to promote the show. I do think the games team did have some close watch on the anime though. Wasn't Cream going to be anime exclusive originally?

I do remember seeing that somewhere.

Given that I seem to recall the show apparently a thing that was being conceived as far back as 1997(not sure where I remember this either) and at least Chris was personally created by SonicTeam, its possible that they did indeed come up with her while tossing around ideas for the show and set about to have her debut in the games with Heroes and then Advance 2 accordingly.

29 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You literally just criticized her for being a moody little brat in X whenever she threw a temper tantrum...

 

I've mostly gotten over it; but Amy's character is rooted in Japanese customs and personality traits, which means yes, she will take most of them from various Anime. But this went over people's heads and they hated her for being "a bitch"  so they just exercised all of those traits from her to make her more appealing to Americans.

 

Its not really about balance; her character is just valued differently depending on the region. Because fun fact, fans from Japan I have spoken too never had an issue with her X incarnation and even found her kind of cute. And sure enough, X is arguably her most popular incarnation for how much they laid on the ship teasing between her and Sonic. 

That's regional value differences for ya.

Also, shipping.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

No I criticised her for being a perpetual 'demonhead' gag in X, overdoing that aspect of her and making her a psycho everyone was terrified of (compared to say Adventure/Heroes Amy who just throws the odd tantrum and is openly labelled a 'little brat' by the likes of Vector). Granted they did do ineffectual Amy temper gags in X as well though that was a factor in itself. After a while, they just made Amy NOTHING BUT a 'lol, nasty tempered bitch' gag who cared more about LOOKING LIKE a compassionate sweet girl than having the genuine credentials of one.

Because she's comic relief in X; compared to say, other video games where she actually has something of a story arc. When she actually is the focus of a story, her traits are more diluted. But when she's mostly a supporting character, her comical traits are amped up.

Its not really about "balance" but rather, what the needs of the story were. If Amy is a major character, she  was fine. But when she wasn't a main character well...that's where psycho Amy comes in. 

[E-122-Psi]

Again though, earlier games could do gags for Amy and even her bratty temper without going into psychotic territory with her, even Heroes for all people complain about it sowing the seeds of her flanderisation just did her as kinda bratty and overenthusiastic, even when just watched from other character campaign perspectives. Even at her worst point in Sonic's campaign she is clearly just being treated as an annoying persistent fangirl like usual.

I do admit my qualms are mainly with other medias like X and Archie at the time, which I felt kinda overdone it. The games got a little obnoxious with it too, though I will admit default Amy was still reasonably herself, not this ticking time bomb everyone's afraid to move a muscle around. Free Riders was probably the worst for games Amy and I think it's more glaring there because she got her own damn campaign mode (damn lots of characters were unlikeable in that game huh).

[thumbs13]

The side games kinda do make everyone unlikeable, and Amy and Knuckles definitely get it the worst. Rush, and Free Riders were the biggest offenders, I'd say. Rivals too, but Amy wasn't in that one.

The side games kinda do make everyone unlikeable, and Amy and Knuckles definitely get it the worst. Rush, and Free Riders were the biggest offenders, I'd say. Rivals too, but Amy wasn't in that one.

[Kuzu]

23 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Again though, earlier games could do gags for Amy and even her bratty temper without going into psychotic territory with her, even Heroes for all people complain about it sowing the seeds of her flanderisation just did her as kinda bratty and overenthusiastic, even when just watched from other character campaign perspectives. Even at her worst point in Sonic's campaign she is clearly just being treated as an annoying persistent fangirl like usual.

I do admit my qualms are mainly with other medias like X and Archie at the time, which I felt kinda overdone it. The games got a little obnoxious with it too, though I will admit default Amy was still reasonably herself, not this ticking time bomb everyone's afraid to move a muscle around. Free Riders was probably the worst for games Amy and I think it's more glaring there because she got her own damn campaign mode (damn lots of characters were unlikeable in that game huh).

You also gotta understand that Amy's character was still getting fleshed out as well. I'm not going to tell you that you should like it, but it was Amy's character for the most part. And you were never supposed to take her bouts of temper seriously as a character flaw period, it was a gag. But Sega recognized that people didn't like those traits, but they were her defining traits. So now she's just kind of there and doesn't do anything any more. 

It was less of an issue with Amy herself, and more that her character archetype (the lovesick smitten girl with a tsundere temper) is simply not an archetype that is appealing to the series` primary demographic (young boys) and some of the older fanbase who just don't care about Japanese archetypal tropes. (there's a reason Shadow is more popular with teenagers than he is with some of the older demographic outside of the Adventure fanbase) 

 

 

I don't hate Amy at all, but I've also grown to recognize that her character archetype just does not appeal to me at all, even when it's done "well". Some characters just aren't gonna click with you. 

[StaticMania]

14 minutes ago, thumbs13 said:

Rivals too, but Amy wasn't in that one.

She has like...2 text boxes.

[E-122-Psi]

26 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You also gotta understand that Amy's character was still getting fleshed out as well. I'm not going to tell you that you should like it, but it was Amy's character for the most part. And you were never supposed to take her bouts of temper seriously as a character flaw period, it was a gag. But Sega recognized that people didn't like those traits, but they were her defining traits. So now she's just kind of there and doesn't do anything any more. 

It was less of an issue with Amy herself, and more that her character archetype (the lovesick smitten girl with a tsundere temper) is simply not an archetype that is appealing to the series` primary demographic (young boys) and some of the older fanbase who just don't care about Japanese archetypal tropes. (there's a reason Shadow is more popular with teenagers than he is with some of the older demographic outside of the Adventure fanbase) 

 

 

I don't hate Amy at all, but I've also grown to recognize that her character archetype just does not appeal to me at all, even when it's done "well". Some characters just aren't gonna click with you. 

Meh, I like Amy having a temper, she's currently kinda boring without SOME level of abrasiveness, it's just it seems to be this trait the creative team just don't get the gist of anymore, overdoing it, taking it away completely or regenerating it completely in a way it wasn't before. Boom Amy is the nearest to getting the balance right in more modern interpretations, and even then they make the mistake of conveying it more like 'middle aged curmudgeon' temper than 'sulky little kid' temper. Better than 'psycho Amy' but still a weird take on her.

Combined with the similar problems grappling Tails' more childish habits, it feels like the creative team have a recurrent habit getting kid archetypes down.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Meh, I like Amy having a temper, she's currently kinda boring without SOME level of abrasiveness, it's just it seems to be this trait the creative team just don't get the gist of anymore, overdoing it, taking it away completely or regenerating it completely in a way it wasn't before. Boom Amy is the nearest to getting the balance right in more modern interpretations, and even then they make the mistake of conveying it more like 'middle aged curmudgeon' temper than 'sulky little kid' temper.

Combined with the similar problems with Tails' more childish habits, it feels like the creative team have a recurrent habit getting kid archetypes down.

I mean, at this point just take what you can get; I can list literally every characterization issue I have with the likes of Sonic, Knuckles, or Shadow until I'm blue in the face, but it's not really gonna solve anything. 

This series treats characterization like Comic books or Star Wars usually do; they flip flop all around until someone strikes the right amount of balance....before they inevitably fuck it up again. Lord knows people despise how Luke Skywalker is written in the ST compared to the OT. 

 

The only way to get over that; just read fanfiction that has what you're looking for in terms of characterization...or write your own. Scream loud enough though, they'll eventually get it right. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, at this point just take what you can get; I can list literally every characterization issue I have with the likes of Sonic, Knuckles, or Shadow until I'm blue in the face, but it's not really gonna solve anything. 
 

It’ll at least teach you how to characterize them better based on those issues.

Not sure how that’s not a solution, even if it’s not done officially. 

 

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It’ll at least teach you how to characterize them better based on those issues.

Not sure how that’s not a solution, even if it’s not done officially. 

 

I mean, it's not solution because it's not affecting the official product; I mean, you are right that it's pointing out flaws in the character writing, but that's not a solution. That's just venting your grievances.