Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[DabigRG]

9 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

An unpopular opinion of mine is that Ken Penders' writing, while certainly incredibly flawed, isn't completely and thoroughly terrible, and I find a lot of his stories enjoyable (even if they often don't hold up under any kind of scrutiny). I certainly don't think he's a great writer and I hate certain things about his stories and writing, don't get me wrong, and I think plenty of his ideas were either very poorly developed or inherently terrible to begin with, but there's definitely things I enjoy about his work and ideas that I like (even if I frequently wish they were executed a lot differently).

Following on that same train of thought, I actually kind of like Penders' handling of the Chaotix, to some extent. I enjoy how they feel like Knuckles' goofy group of friends. It makes Knuckles feel more like a "real" teenager. 

I can agree to that. 

[Kuzu]

I think Sonic is versatile enough to be able to handle most tonal shifts. Nobody wants grim darkness or anything, but it would be nice if the setting actually gave a shit about its conflict beyond just being gag focused.

Sonic being a cheesy action-adventure series just goes hand in hand.

Ten years since Colors and I've just kind of stopped caring about these characters because they simply aren't interesting to watch anymore.

[E-122-Psi]

I mean Lost World I do think was an attempt at a more balanced emotional stakes type story that doesn't get too melodramatic and grim, it's just the execution was really slapdash. I liked Boom tried to refine on that and have more palpable conflict stories, again without forgetting the lighthearted narrative.

[DabigRG]

I respect Lost World and I guess collectively the Zeti for trying that genuine evolving middle ground as well.

 

That said, I think everyone can agree that no matter what the tone, Sonic plots should do their best to go all out and be sincere about the story they're telling.

[Kuzu]

36 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I mean Lost World I do think was an attempt at a more balanced emotional stakes type story that doesn't get too melodramatic and grim, it's just the execution was really slapdash. I liked Boom tried to refine on that and have more palpable conflict stories, again without forgetting the lighthearted narrative.

I don't care for the tone as much as I do the quality of the writing, and I know this is down to personal preference, but there's a reason people don't care about the Deadly Six and think Tails was an asshole.

By comparison, there's been no character that has made a wave like Shadow, Silver, have in the series.

 

The tone is irrelevant and I think fans get way too caught up in "what's appropriate for the series" rather than the actual quality of the writing. If the writing holds up, then the tone honestly does not matter. 

But because people have PTSD and refuse to move on from 2005-2006, any time that Sonic tries to do anything that's not "lighthearted whimsy", I have to hear about how its "unfitting" for the series every single time.

 

Shit, if you want a lighthearted storiew that are miles better than Lost World Rush, Rush Adventure, Battle and Advance 3,  the storybook games, the first Riders game. This series isn't as grim dark as people assume it is and I hate how the consensus seems unless the series is mocking itself, its "too dark".

[E-122-Psi]

I do agree on Rush Adventure as a decent story example, the first Rush and Unleashed as well besides the odd lingering bad elements of the old formula of its time. Lost World I guess I kinda respect for trying to be a little ambitious and deconstruct the main cast, which often sounds like a depth many want more out of the games cast, it's just, like you said, it wasn't that fluid at all. I think the writing team were unused to even writing Tails as a flawed character rather than exposition fairy by that point.

I do think it's possible to have weightful poignant stories without taking away the light heartedness. I love cases like New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh and the Sun and Moon series of the Pokemon anime, which do tackle more emotional plot lines but never quite betray that laid back approach, hence why many do still consider them childish at face value. Some of Sonic's darker storylines feel a bit too much like shock value or copying the more grown up trend of the time.

Maybe that's why Gamma fit the middle ground for me, it is a more somber story, but it fits within the mythos of the Sonic franchise and ultimately is actually a rather quiet and introspective story. There is still an intentional feeling it is built around something rather silly, just they are deconstructing it and getting legitimate poignancy out of it.

[Kuzu]

38 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I do agree on Rush Adventure as a decent story example, the first Rush and Unleashed as well besides the odd lingering bad elements of the old formula of its time. Lost World I guess I kinda respect for trying to be a little ambitious and deconstruct the main cast, which often sounds like a depth many want more out of the games cast, it's just, like you said, it wasn't that fluid at all. I think the writing team were unused to even writing Tails as a flawed character rather than exposition fairy by that point.

I do think it's possible to have weightful poignant stories without taking away the light heartedness. I love cases like New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh and the Sun and Moon series of the Pokemon anime, which do tackle more emotional plot lines but never quite betray that laid back approach, hence why many do still consider them childish at face value. Some of Sonic's darker storylines feel a bit too much like shock value or copying the more grown up trend of the time.

I'm going to say that you're doing literally the same thing, but in the opposite direction and assuming the games were darker than they actually were.

This is one of the opening cutscenes to what's generally considered "the darkest Sonic game"

 

There's literally nothing here that suggests a dark tone; Sonic starts off with a cheesy ass quip same as he does in later games. There's nothing overly dark about SA2 until literally the last act of the game.

The only game that can generally be considered "dark" from the getgo is Shadow's game, and surprise, that's the game almost everyone points to when they say the series was "too dark" even tho with the exception of 06, there has not been a game that has attempted Shadow's tone since.

So why in God's name do I have to constantly hear how everything from the 2000's was "too dark" when there's literally only one or two examples that you can reasonably use, and they are the examples that nobody liked or wanted anyway.

[UnknownByME]

11 hours ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

Unpopular:

Archie and IDW comics treats the characters better than the main game series ever will.

Ever will, no, not a chance. SEGA just needs to get some better writers now that Pontaff are out.

Ever were, maybe, but SA, SA2, 06, Rush, Unleashed, Colors DS and several other games did pretty fantastic with characters.

Currently (Colors Wii - Forces), yeah definitely.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

There's nothing overly dark about SA2 until literally the last act of the game.

Eh, the flashback to Maria getting shot comes pretty early in the Dark story.

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Eh, the flashback to Maria getting shot comes pretty early in the Dark story.

True, but that's one instance and you don't even get the full context and story until the Last story. 

For the most part, the first two acts of the game are the standard Sonic vs. Eggman affair. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

12 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

I think that may be less unpopular than you think.

An unpopular opinion of mine is that Ken Penders' writing, while certainly incredibly flawed, isn't completely and thoroughly terrible, and I find a lot of his stories enjoyable (even if they often don't hold up under any kind of scrutiny). I certainly don't think he's a great writer and I hate certain things about his stories and writing, don't get me wrong, and I think plenty of his ideas were either very poorly developed or inherently terrible to begin with, but there's definitely things I enjoy about his work and ideas that I like (even if I frequently wish they were executed a lot differently).

Following on that same train of thought, I actually kind of like Penders' handling of the Chaotix, to some extent. I enjoy how they feel like Knuckles' goofy group of friends. It makes Knuckles feel more like a "real" teenager. Also, I like that his version of Espio wasn't as dour and serious as more current versions. That's not to say I think they were super well written or something, just that I do find a certain amount of merit in how they were handled.

I’m actually the same way. It should go without saying that the main problem with Penders is his ego and attitude after he ended his time on the comics that soured his name on everything it was involved in.

But outside of that what Penders done, and I know I’ve said this somewhere else in the past, his writing wasn’t anything stranger than what the games have done given that some of his ideas actually predates a lot of what would come into the games later down the line—and funny enough, botched by Sonic Team themselves in their attempt. Aliens threatening to destroy the world (Xorda/Black Arms), romantic side plot between Sonic and another char (Sally/Elise/etc), a global war with Eggman having already won (okay, so this wasn’t exclusive to Penders, but he definitely has a mark in this area).

What’s worse? He also did his own Two Worlds with Mobius and Earth before it was even a thing, and while I hate giving this guy any kind of positive credit, Penders attempt was a lot less stupid than what the games would do almost two decades after him—with Penders “two worlds” there wasn’t two separate worlds between human and animals, but one world that went by two names that both humans and anthros live on together: Earth in the past and Mobius in the present. I actually prefer this idea over separate planets.

That said, nothing will forgive how he fucked many things up and he’s a disillusioned disgrace as of today who to my knowledge still hasn’t learned a thing—not sure what about him has changed since the last time I peaked into the Lara-Su Chronicles topic. But it’s still telling how somewhere down the line his ideas in the comics would find their way into the games in some form.

[Shadowlax]

42 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

So why in God's name do I have to constantly hear how everything from the 2000's was "too dark" when there's literally only one or two examples that you can reasonably use, and they are the examples that nobody liked or wanted anyway.

Its different and bad

New sonic is also different and bad. Every game since 2010 has just been sonic saying " baldi mcnoose hair" and committing war crimes

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

More like because people are holding grudges of what came 20 years ago and refusing to see the versatility of the franchise while praising the same poor quality when the pendulum swings the other way.

A reminder that SA2 was, and despite conflicting opinions of today still is, considered one of Sonic’s most successful titles that defined people’s experience with the franchise in the same way as those who consider Sonic 3 & Knuckles one of the franchises higher points compared to the likes of ShTH, 06, and Lost Worlds—there’s a reason many keep these games far away from it, and it has nothing to do with tone.

[Kuzu]

This series has never had spectacular writing; no matter how biased I am towards the older games, I would never go as far to say that it's A+ writing. It's pretty much what you'd expect out of a B grade Shonen Anime. But the difference before is that the series actually gave a shit back then to properly develop those B grade stories. They were not perfect by any means and are not immune to mistepping, but the games understood that the plot needed to be developed for the audience to actually give a shit. 

Colors is fine for what the story is trying to do; it wasn't trying to be anything more a comical romp, and it was as a break to all of that action the series had been ramping up before. But Sega being the fucking geniuses that they are saw the glowing reception it got and thought "Oh I guess we should just do these types of plots from now on" so even when they attempt to take things seriously, they undercut themselves by refusing to properly flesh out or develop anything in the game.

This is why Tails' arc in Adventure hits better than what they were doing with him in Lost World; in the former, it builds on Tails` established backstory of being lonely before he met Sonic and actually follows through with his arc growing confident without Sonic at his side. Does it come right the fuck out of nowhere and is not properly developed to have a bigger impact? Maybe. But there's a clear start and endpoint to that arc. 

By comparison, yes they do attempt to play on Tails` insecurities in Lost World to have a rift between him and Sonic; that's a novel idea for a plot (and I'm really pissed they fucked it up). But there's no context or reasoning for it, even within the game itself. I know it tries to explain it, but it tells you what's happening instead of actually showing the player. So as far as the player sees, Tails just starts lashing out for a poorly explained reason and gets rewarded for it. It's just not satisfying to watch. 

[Mountaindewandsprite]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I think Sonic is versatile enough to be able to handle most tonal shifts. Nobody wants grim darkness or anything, but it would be nice if the setting actually gave a shit about its conflict beyond just being gag focused.

This. While I agree that the shonen anime type story isn't really for Sonic, it shouldn't be a comedy based series either.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

By comparison, yes they do attempt to play on Tails` insecurities in Lost World to have a rift between him and Sonic; that's a novel idea for a plot (and I'm really pissed they fucked it up). But there's no context or reasoning for it, even within the game itself. I know it tries to explain it, but it tells you what's happening instead of actually showing the player. So as far as the player sees, Tails just starts lashing out for a poorly explained reason and gets rewarded for it. It's just not satisfying to watch. 

I wouldn’t call it a novel idea given that Ian Flynn predated them with better execution years prior when he wrote Archie Sonic’s House of Cards arc—which has its own set of problems, but was far better at executing a developing rift between Sonic and Tails to the point they actually got into a fist fight with each other of their own free will. Actually hits all the right marks despite things like Tails’ jealousy over Fiona fumbling the climax.

(man I wish his editor didn’t fuck that up tho)

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I wouldn’t call it a novel idea given that Ian Flynn predated them with the idea and better execution year prior when he wrote Archie Sonic’s House of Cards arc—which has its own set of problems, but was far better at executing a rift between Sonic and Tails to the point they actually got into a fist fight with each other of their own free will.

Sonic & Tails coming to blows because of a girl, and not anything inherent to their characters, isn't really as interesting to me to be perfectly honest. It's certainly in-line with the soap opera like atmosphere the comics tended to be like at times, but it's not my cup of tea.

4 minutes ago, Mountaindewandsprite said:

This. While I agree that the shonen anime type story isn't really for Sonic, it shouldn't be a comedy based series either.

I'm gonna predate this by saying that I am extremely biased about this and in fact a huge Shonen Anime nerd; that being said, Shonen absolutely fits Sonic. Regardless of how you feel about them as games or stories, the series always kind of had this "punk-action" feel that is generally found in most Shonen Anime (or at least a Western Action-orientated cartoon like Avatar or TMNT 2012, which shocker, are ALSO inspired by Anime :V).

Sonic is a character who is always searching for adventure and loves throwing himself into the action; he is a Shonen protagonist at his fucking core. This is why when they try to stray away from that, it tends to feel off or awkward. Sonic Boom, bless it's soul, is more of a sitcom type atmosphere and is generally not considered "Sonic". It's why there has been such a vehement reaction to the series trying to be "funny", because the series does NOT have the chops to be a comedy. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

35 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic & Tails coming to blows because of a girl, and not anything inherent to their characters, isn't really as interesting to me to be perfectly honest. It's certainly in-line with the soap opera like atmosphere the comics tended to be like at times, but it's not my cup of tea.

It wasn’t interesting to anyone. It was the single biggest problem over the reasons why they went at it, and is commonly agreed to be the one thing that should be removed from the reasons they fought—which funny enough was during the time it was actually moving away from the soap opera nonsense.

[E-122-Psi]

My general problem isn't that examples like SA2, the comics and what not can't be light hearted AT ALL, they do have cartoony moments, but the problem that leads to its less nuanced dark moments causing a really unsettling mood whiplash.

Like I do take interest in the context of City Escape itself, it does take an interesting direction in setting up how Sonic is facing a more grimly realistic threat now, especially with the 'Man about the forest' direction of not showing GUN, only showing their weapons and vehicles, making it more ominous when we see the supposed law enforcers wildly and desperately pursuing Sonic with all the same reckless disregard for their surroundings as Eggman, even trying to KILL HIM throughout the level. This doesn't intrude the more upbeat layout but does add a foreboding sinister light to how things are playing out.

The problem is it doesn't stick to that nuance, after that we get full on shock value scenes of a girl slowly dying from gunshot and a broken imprisoned man chained up awaiting execution. Them throwing that creepy photo in front of us at every opportunity in the final story just felt like a really desperate ploy of 'LOOK, look at how grown up this all is!!!'.

Also they don't really stick to their guns with this heavier story to me. GUN just ends up a forgotten plot device and they try to white wash Shadow's sacrifice as all being well with the world, despite establishing the authorities of Sonic's world are corrupt and self serving enough that they are willing to scapegoat and murder the world's hero just to hide their own genocidal actions. Sonic can not just go back to smiling and pretending it's all carefree with that context, but it sure as hell tries to. In fairness the sequel games DO at least try to redeem GUN if still in a hasty whitewashed sort of way.

Also I think this is also the point the mainstream games were proving to be aesthetically broken. Like SA1 had photo realistic humans as well, but the story focus was still on the anthro and Chao lore, the surreal original elements were still important. In SA2, the realistic human world is nearly the sole focus where the game is story driven, with the original Sonic anthro world being limited to just a dozen or so cartoony figures who exist....just because. Basically Sonic X and the movie's premise but with zero contextual explanation to why such an anomaly exists. It really plays into the feel that the creative team just copy pasted another franchise idea they liked but without even bothering to nuance or 'Sonic-ify' it to work within the same series, likely because the more realistic but completely contrasting format makes their story look more grittier and grown up. While SA2 was a bit more balanced, it was obvious as these games went on that the 'Sonic' part of this world was becoming the more minor and expendable one.

I hold SA1 with higher regard because, not only did the story feel more balanced and subtle, but it felt like the darker more impactful elements were still building on what made Sonic's world originally, still holding respect for what it is while still trying to add onto that, while SA2 and its follow ons felt like they were trying to change how it worked completely.

Granted SA1 does have that same broken ending. "All's well that ends well" an entire drowned populace, Tails.

[Kuzu]

26 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

My general problem isn't that examples like SA2, the comics and what not can't be light hearted AT ALL, they do have cartoony moments, but the problem that leads to its less nuanced dark moments causing a really unsettling mood whiplash.

Like I do take interest in the context of City Escape itself, it does take an interesting direction in setting up how Sonic is facing a more grimly realistic threat now, especially with the 'Man about the forest' direction of not showing GUN, only showing their weapons and vehicles, making it more ominous when we see the supposed law enforcers wildly and desperately pursuing Sonic with all the same reckless disregard for their surroundings as Eggman, even trying to KILL HIM throughout the level. This doesn't intrude the more upbeat layout but does add a foreboding sinister light to how things are playing out.

The problem is it doesn't stick to that nuance, after that we get full on shock value scenes of a girl slowly dying from gunshot and a broken imprisoned man chained up awaiting execution. Them throwing that creepy photo in front of us at every opportunity in the final story just felt like a really desperate ploy of 'LOOK, look at how grown up this all is!!!'.

Also they don't really stick to their guns with this heavier story to me. GUN just ends up a forgotten plot device and they try to white wash Shadow's sacrifice as all being well with the world, despite establishing the authorities of Sonic's world are corrupt and self serving enough that they are willing to scapegoat and murder the world's hero just to hide their own genocidal actions. Sonic can not just go back to smiling and pretending it's all carefree with that context, but it sure as hell tries to. In fairness the sequel games DO at least try to redeem GUN if still in a hasty whitewashed sort of way.

Also I think this is also the point the mainstream games were proving to be aesthetically broken. Like SA1 had photo realistic humans as well, but the story focus was still on the anthro and Chao lore, the surreal original elements were still important. In SA2, the realistic human world is nearly the sole focus where the game is story driven, with the original Sonic anthro world being limited to just a dozen or so cartoony figures who exist....just because. Basically Sonic X and the movie's premise but with zero contextual explanation to why such an anomaly exists. It really plays into the feel that the creative team just copy pasted another franchise idea they liked but without even bothering to nuance or 'Sonic-ify' it to work within the same series, likely because the more realistic but completely contrasting format makes their story look more grittier and grown up. While SA2 was a bit more balanced, it was obvious as these games went on that the 'Sonic' part of this world was becoming the more minor and expendable one.

I hold SA1 with higher regard because, not only did the story feel more balanced and subtle, but it felt like the darker more impactful elements were still building on what made Sonic's world originally, still holding respect for what it is while still trying to add onto that, while SA2 and its follow ons felt like they were trying to change how it worked completely.

Granted SA1 does have that same broken ending. "All's well that ends well" an entire drowned populace, Tails.

None of this is a critique of the game's writing though; all you're talking about are implications and things that don't actually happen, or how some things made you feel. Not once have you pointed out in any way how SA2's plot is broken or doesn't work in it's given context. You could have literally pointed out how Rouge's identity as a government agent is poorly built up and how it makes no sense for Shadow to know about it, and I would have given that to you. 

I don't care about implications, I care about what's actually happening in the story. I think you are grossly confusing your own personal opinions about the series with objective fact because you constantly are willing handwave poorly written parts of other games, simply because they fall in line with your own preferences, but then accuse other games of things that don't actually happen, simply because it makes you feel uncomfortable. 

And that's fine, because that's your own personal preferences on the series and I have no right to tell you what you can or can't like. But I would respect you a lot more if you just came out and said "Sonic is a cartoon blue hedgehog and I prefer for the series to never do dark stories ever" instead of trying to frame what's obviously an opinion as an objective fact about the series` tone and then turn a blind eye to other accounts of bad writing. 

 

[Red Hot Jack]

The games actually have NO IDEA where they want to point at, story-wise, they are still figuring out themselves (from ages).

I also don't think anyone besides the Penders' cultists believes that Sally slapping Sonic or Sonic vs Tails for Fiona were good ideas, Ian Flynn also made his slew of mistakes, he had to grow okay? I mean, Tyson Hesse also did that weird parody comic in the past, they have proven themselves and redeemed... Tyson and Ian. There is A LOT of distance between the fan fiction Archie preboot was and the IDW comic, the newest comic is somthing tense but real, real stuff that could happen in the games, in this case it's inspired by Forces' storyline. Of course we need more light hearted stories in the future... i-it's not like IDW and Sega can go darker right now, can they?? I hope not...

Anyway, I still believe... screw Boom, the Movie did get the tone right, along with a lot of stuff, sure Sonic and Robotnik were vastly different, but they were still those characters, unlike other different incarnations which didn't get them right, they were different but recognizable, I think that was the point, AND they were a lot of fun in my opinion. Plus, it's the origin story that is supposed to build up to what the characters are in the games, with time and progression. I think that's what they are going for.

And this is the difference between the movie(s) and the games: there is a goal in the movie series, they are going somewhere, meanwhile the games try to reinvent themselves every time, they are struggling between the old formula, new experiments, various shifts in tone, etc. I do believe SEGA devs are clueless on where to take Sonic, what is his tone and feel, his identity.

The movie is not perfect, but near damn close for me, you have 1 full minute of exposition/world building, then the core of the story with heart, a message, fun new human characters and fun scenes in general, the end plus hints of a sequel in the form of fanservice. It's great, refreshing to see. But the most important thing, it's simple and fun, the movie knows what it is, what it is aiming for, a good heartwarming story, a lot of laughs for kids and adults as well, bits of fanservice here and there, et voilà... this is why I love it.

[thumbs13]

14 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

 

Following on that same train of thought, I actually kind of like Penders' handling of the Chaotix, to some extent. I enjoy how they feel like Knuckles' goofy group of friends. It makes Knuckles feel more like a "real" teenager. Also, I like that his version of Espio wasn't as dour and serious as more current versions. That's not to say I think they were super well written or something, just that I do find a certain amount of merit in how they were handled.

Pender's Vector is still....iffy. His personality traits were hating women and talking in vaguely offensive slang, and it's really hard to stomach.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

None of this is a critique of the game's writing though; all you're talking about are implications and things that don't actually happen, or how some things made you feel. Not once have you pointed out in any way how SA2's plot is broken or doesn't work in it's given context. You could have literally pointed out how Rouge's identity as a government agent is poorly built up and how it makes no sense for Shadow to know about it, and I would have given that to you. 

I don't care about implications, I care about what's actually happening in the story. I think you are grossly confusing your own personal opinions about the series with objective fact because you constantly are willing handwave poorly written parts of other games, simply because they fall in line with your own preferences, but then accuse other games of things that don't actually happen, simply because it makes you feel uncomfortable. 

And that's fine, because that's your own personal preferences on the series and I have no right to tell you what you can or can't like. But I would respect you a lot more if you just came out and said "Sonic is a cartoon blue hedgehog and I prefer for the series to never do dark stories ever" instead of trying to frame what's obviously an opinion as an objective fact about the series` tone and then turn a blind eye to other accounts of bad writing. 

 

Fair enough, but I guess I can't give that answer because 'darkness' is very subjective. Darker takes can range anywhere from a complete tonal and depiction shift like say the SatAm and comic canons, or just having a relatively more impactful and dramatic storyline that still feel within the same storytelling like say some of the Winnie the Pooh movies and episodes.

I suppose the more accurate admittance may be 'Sonic is a cartoon blue hedgehog and i prefer for the series to never do asthetically or tonally jarring stories ever'.

[Kuzu]

37 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Fair enough, but I guess I can't give that answer because 'darkness' is very subjective. Darker takes can range anywhere from a complete tonal and depiction shift like say the SatAm and comic canons, or just having a relatively more impactful and dramatic storyline that still feel within the same storytelling like say some of the Winnie the Pooh movies and episodes.

I suppose the more accurate admittance may be 'Sonic is a cartoon blue hedgehog and i prefer for the series to never do aesthetically or tonally jarring stories ever'.

Well like you said, it depends on what people consider a tolerable shift. My personal view of Sonic is that of a rather standard Shonen anime, which yes, they have extremely dark moments, are generally pretty uplifting and optimistic. In fact, those darker moments make the optimistic moments stand out that much more imo.

And it's not like I'm stupid either; even at 12 years old, I thought something like the cover to Shadow's game was tone-deaf as hell to what Sonic was. I'm saying the series isn't as tonally dissonant as people make it out to be; if anything, it's more tone-deaf now than it was before as games like Lost World and Forces flip flop between wanting to be "serious" while still maintaining a light atmosphere. 

The "dark" moments of older games, with a few exceptions, are generally more spread out and eased into better; the darkest parts of the Sonic Adventure games are, once again, backended to the literal end of the game, with both games maintaining a pretty consistent and uplifting attitude. The darker tone wasn't used to say "WE'RE TOTALLY SERIOUS NOW GUYS", it was used to tell a genuinely tragic and moving story, which would simply not work if they did not treat those subjects with the seriousness that was needed. 

 

Once again, I'm not saying it's perfect or even well written. But I feel there was a much better attempt back then than what the series goes for now. Part of the series` identity crisis because it can never settle on what it wants to do, rather than simply balancing both halves when and where it's appropriate. 

[DabigRG]

Why oh why do we let you too look at each other

5 hours ago, UnknownByME said:

Ever will, no, not a chance. SEGA just needs to get some better writers now that Pontaff are out.

 

Are they?

4 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’m actually the same way. It should go without saying that the main problem with Penders is his ego and attitude after he ended his time on the comics that soured his name on everything it was involved in.

But outside of that what Penders done, and I know I’ve said this somewhere else in the past, his writing wasn’t anything stranger than what the games have done given that some of his ideas actually predates a lot of what would come into the games later down the line—and funny enough, botched by Sonic Team themselves in their attempt. Aliens threatening to destroy the world (Xorda/Black Arms), romantic side plot between Sonic and another char (Sally/Elise/etc), a global war with Eggman having already won (okay, so this wasn’t exclusive to Penders, but he definitely has a mark in this area).

What’s worse? He also did his own Two Worlds with Mobius and Earth before it was even a thing, and while I hate giving this guy any kind of positive credit, Penders attempt was a lot less stupid than what the games would do almost two decades after him—with Penders “two worlds” there wasn’t two separate worlds between human and animals, but one world that went by two names that both humans and anthros live on together: Earth in the past and Mobius in the present. I actually prefer this idea over separate planets.

That said, nothing will forgive how he fucked many things up and he’s a disillusioned disgrace as of today who to my knowledge still hasn’t learned a thing—not sure what about him has changed since the last time I peaked into the Lara-Su Chronicles topic. But it’s still telling how somewhere down the line his ideas in the comics would find their way into the games in some form.

I wanna say that stuff was more on Billers, but the point still stands.

 

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

, Tails gangster beating him for stealing his girl, 

 

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

 committing war crimes

Wth...

 

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Sonic & Tails coming to blows because of a girl, and not anything inherent to their characters, isn't really as interesting to me to be perfectly honest. It's certainly in-line with the soap opera like atmosphere the comics tended to be like at times, but it's not my cup of tea.

 

It was for more than that--Tails' parents come to mind.

Fiona was just sort of a convenient and recent millstone in their relationship.