Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Iko]

The Deadly 6 are more fitting with Yooka Laylee's art style than Sonic's.

They actually share an extremely similar art style, especially the way how they're colored.

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Jack at Home said:

Zavok > Infinite

For me. 

Only him though. Not the rest of the D6, those are basically offensive, because they are clichè tropes & joke villains, I'm upset by Zomom, Zeena, Zor, and even Zazz honestly, gender, body shape, mind issues and bad cynism, turned into pathetic antagonists, yeah it does that effect.

Meanwhile, while I do think both Zavok and Infinite have potential, let's list the points:

Zavok:

+ Has far more skills, besides, he has brutal strenght which most Sonic antagonists lack, a la Bowser, whose type we do need in the series

+ He's not a joke unlike his companions, he's just "used" as a joke

+ Can be an antagonist almost on par as Eggman, except they want to use him as Eggman's minion, a fodder villain sidekick

+ He does villains speeches very well

+ He actually thinks before he acts, but then he also takes action, directly

+ Has a transformation (sorta)

+ I don't mind his devil-esque design

+ The taste for raw dark lines means something with him, it's not meant to look funny and awkward

Infinite

- Better theme song

- Waaay better design, fits more the series

- More of a unique ability, but basically only one and it's very downplayed, they didn't go crazy with it

- He can get into the hero's mind

Both really fall flat because they are badly written, not used properly, come off as generic villains so that's lame, but there is potential with them.

I rather agree, even if the details are little mum at the moment.

 

[E-122-Psi]

I think both are interesting because they have at least smidgeons of dimension to them. They're not like a lot of previous final bosses, just generic monsters meant to be everything Eggman isn't as a villain. These guys are menacing but they have a bit of arrogance and self preservation like Eggman does, they're not as cleanly on the top of the hierarchy as they think they are. It's a shame their role as actual rivals for Eggman is so underplayed because I think that's where they would most shine.

Even the whole 'team clenched teamwork' thing could have worked in TSR if they focused on the teeth clenched part, that Zavok would only give an ounce of time to Eggman if he had something for him (and even then they'd likely backstab each other at the first opportunity, it's just a matter of who makes the first preemptive strike). Same for Infinite's impudence. It's cool Eggman didn't just end up outclassed by him, but I think there should have been more of an actual conflict, that Eggman was struggling to reign him in.

I'm glad Eggman isn't just the main villain's patsy anymore but at the same time I don't want him to the permanent top dog either. I like when the villain hierarchy is uneasy, that there's an existing chain but it keeps getting messed with because they're so good at backstabbing and usurping one another. Archie comics was pretty good at this, even if again, it maybe made Eggman too definite over nearly all the other recurrent villains. Right now, the whole villain cast in the games is full of supercilious egotists, guys who think they should be in control but aren't playing with a full deck of cards, the potential is perfect for loads of conflict, both large scale and comically petty.

[Meta77]

On 5/15/2020 at 5:23 AM, batson said:

How do you feel about Heroes soundtrack? Personally I feel that the soundtracks of SA, SA2 and Heroes forms a sort of holy trinity among 3D Sonic game soundtracks that no later games in the series have been able to match.

Heroes is ok but no where near the top. If I had to pick three to listen to for life 06 would be at the top few have touched the scale they went with *aquatic base is just god tier*. Then SA1 and a battle between SA2 and unleashed when it came to 3d games.

[Kuzu]

I disagree with the notion that Sonic being a static and unchanging character makes him poorly characterized than the rest of the cast. It devalues the type of character that Sonic is, and his overall influence within the series and on the characters around him. When you have a cast that's as large and diverse as this series, you need some type of unifying element that binds them all together to make the entire series stable and to have a solid base, otherwise the series just wouldn't be able to function as well in the long term. 

It also ignores the fact that all of these characters would not be as interesting or developed if not for their interactions with Sonic, because it's those interactions that help flesh them out.  Sonic being static is essential to that, and it's why interactions with him work. Sonic can interact and potentially get along with anyone or he can be opposed by anyone. It just makes for much more cohesive storytelling in a series like this. 

It's always bothered me when Sonic is written off as "boring" or how he needs "more attitude" when he never really did to me. 

[Shadowlax]

55 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I disagree with the notion that Sonic being a static and unchanging character makes him poorly characterized than the rest of the cast. It devalues the type of character that Sonic is,

I agree with this

55 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It also ignores the fact that all of these characters would not be as interesting or developed if not for their interactions with Sonic, because it's those interactions that help flesh them out.  Sonic being static is essential to that, and it's why interactions with him work. Sonic can interact and potentially get along with anyone or he can be opposed by anyone. It just makes for much more cohesive storytelling in a series like this. 

I disagree with this though, Like sonic needs to be around because he's the reason why the series and related material exist. But these archetypes and we are purely talking about characterization has work and will continue to work out some unifying factor. I mentioned this in the other thread but have you seen agressuko? Its a hello kitty spin off of all things, and not only does it not have her in it, she wouldn't even work in that world. And I totally think sonic can have series, much like disney with like ducktales or Goof troop,  has series where mickey's existance or in this case sonic's would actually make  the world worse than better. And these characters can have different backstories that work on their characterizations that make them function.

While I agree that sonic's static nature is being a bit underated, though it does come with its own bunch of problems. I don't think they need sonic to develop much at all. All they need is good writing and a good situation.

55 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

It's always bothered me when Sonic is written off as "boring" or how he needs "more attitude" when he never really did to me. 

Sonic is boring some times, I find that there is a frequent problem where he is not challenged in ways he should be that make for very boring material , I think its one of his biggest issues these days.

To give an example again the zombot arc, sonic is the least interesting part. Everyone else going through emotions and dealing with loss is intresting. Sonic never really every questions what he believes , and while he may be nervous that never results in anything characterization wise he just goes back to believing what he believes. I actually think in some ways like with his conversation with metal sonic it makes him and his narrative look worse. The opportunities to capitalize on that have been wasted and we are at the finish line. When stories are being written like this, its not really hard to see people write him off as boring. He doesn't need to change too much, but going through things is neat. But when the author is willing to throw a character to the metalic wolves to prevent him from actually having to deal with an argument and keeps specifically his closest friends safe. Robbing his story of any meaningful conflict and tension respectively. You could suggest " he has the virus you dork" but given the first the two issues I mentioned, why would I as a reader believe at any point in the narrative he's gonna get it.  But that's the comic's right? That' s written by flynn.

The last 3d game is him solving the issue by doing nothing different than he's done before. His existence as a static individual due to how the story is told makes everyone in the game look awful. And he changes in no interesting ways. And don't try and be like " well his presence inspired them" thats crap. Other characters there that could have solved the problem sonic did nothing special and shadow's MIA status during that entire game supports this.

if i'm being exposed to material like this on the regular, sonic comes off an extremely boring character. The only version of sonic in the last decade or so having been interesting is boom sonic a character who actually got challenged on both a physical and mental level and was just wrong. Sonic was just wrong and sometimes a dick and had to learn a lesson. Maybe if he was characterization more like that , he would be less boring. He had personality, flaws, hang ups, insecurities in that show. Shit was great

[E-122-Psi]

I'm sort of on the field of liking him being a simple approachable character but still having enough depth to him to not be seen as two dimensional. You don't really need a gripping amount of development to do that really.

Like I appreciate Lost World and Boom for doing those sort of light hearted deconstructions of Sonic, putting him in a situation he's NOT in control or his ethics are challenged (or in Boom's case even letting him LOSE the odd scenario due to his hubris). These aren't really complicated situations at all, hell Looney Tunes did these sorts of moments with Bugs Bunny, but they are something that shows the character has dimensions, he's worth more than just a foil for other more complex characters.

Like I think one thing against Sonic sometimes is that he is usually the generic hero with no drive besides saving the day while everyone gets character driven campaigns, but then you see instances where he becomes bored or ambitionless because Eggman retired and his actual standard personality becomes far more compelling and driven. It shows you don't have to change Sonic at all, just play around with what he already is.

[Kuzu]

25 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

 

I disagree with this though, Like sonic needs to be around because he's the reason why the series and related material exist. But these archetypes and we are purely talking about characterization has work and will continue to work out some unifying factor. I mentioned this in the other thread but have you seen agressuko? Its a hello kitty spin off of all things, and not only does it not have her in it, she wouldn't even work in that world. And I totally think sonic can have series, much like disney with like ducktales or Goof troop,  has series where mickey's existance or in this case sonic's would actually make  the world worse than better. And these characters can have different backstories that work on their characterizations that make them function.

While I agree that sonic's static nature is being a bit underated, though it does come with its own bunch of problems. I don't think they need sonic to develop much at all. All they need is good writing and a good situation

 

This isn't really true at all, because in those series that you mentioned, the main character role just simply falls onto someone else: Goofy and Max are the main characters of Goof Troop, and the Duck family are the main characters of Ducktales. This only holds true for Sonic if the other characters had their own spin off franchises separate from the main series, but they do not. Sonic is still very much the main character in the main series of games no matter how well developed any other character might be. 

The only way for that to not be the case would be for a character to be spun off into their own franchise, but as these characters are now, they are still very much supporting character in Sonic's story, even if they have gotten focus in the past. 

25 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

To give an example again the zombot arc, sonic is the least interesting part. Everyone else going through emotions and dealing with loss is intresting. Sonic never really every questions what he believes , and while he may be nervous that never results in anything characterization wise he just goes back to believing what he believes. I actually think in some ways like with his conversation with metal sonic it makes him and his narrative look worse. The opportunities to capitalize on that have been wasted and we are at the finish line. When stories are being written like this, its not really hard to see people write him off as boring. He doesn't need to change too much, but going through things is neat. But when the author is willing to throw a character to the metalic wolves to prevent him from actually having to deal with an argument and keeps specifically his closest friends safe. Robbing his story of any meaningful conflict and tension respectively. You could suggest " he has the virus you dork" but given the first the two issues I mentioned, why would I as a reader believe at any point in the narrative he's gonna get it.  But that's the comic's right? That' s written by flynn.

The last 3d game is him solving the issue by doing nothing different than he's done before. His existence as a static individual due to how the story is told makes everyone in the game look awful. And he changes in no interesting ways. And don't try and be like " well his presence inspired them" thats crap. Other characters there that could have solved the problem sonic did nothing special and shadow's MIA status during that entire game supports this.

if i'm being exposed to material like this on the regular, sonic comes off an extremely boring character. The only version of sonic in the last decade or so having been interesting is boom sonic a character who actually got challenged on both a physical and mental level and was just wrong. Sonic was just wrong and sometimes a dick and had to learn a lesson. Maybe if he was characterization more like that , he would be less boring. He had personality, flaws, hang ups, insecurities in that show. Shit was great

See, and this is what I mean when I say that his character is misinterpreted; you're blaming Sonic for things that are honestly out of his control, and that he had no direct involvement in, and story acknowledged that. Eggman was the one who chose to be evil again, Metal Sonic was the one who decided to go back to Eggman, and Starlene was the one who decided to bring back the doctor's memories. 

Blaming Sonic for all of that, simply because he wanted to show some compassion is completely unfair to his character, and it's' these uncharitable reads that makes me disagree with the notion that his character is a problem and not people simply having a flawed interpretation of him. 

21 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm sort of on the field of liking him being a simple approachable character but still having enough depth to him to not be seen as two dimensional. You don't really need a gripping amount of development to do that really.

Like I appreciate Lost World and Boom for doing those sort of light hearted deconstructions of Sonic, putting him in a situation he's NOT in control or his ethics are challenged (or in Boom's case even letting him LOSE the odd scenario due to his hubris). These aren't really complicated situations at all, hell Looney Tunes did these sorts of moments with Bugs Bunny, but they are something that shows the character has dimensions, he's worth more than just a foil for other more complex characters.

Like I think one thing against Sonic sometimes is that he is usually the generic hero with no drive besides saving the day while everyone gets character driven campaigns, but then you see instances where he becomes bored or ambitionless because Eggman retired and his actual standard personality becomes far more compelling and driven. It shows you don't have to change Sonic at all, just play around with what he already is.

My main issue with Boom's Sonic is that...he just lacks the energy and enthusiasm I come to expect from the character; I get that it's a different setting and interpretation, but the situations presented, while well written, aren't all that interesting to me personally. 

I want to see a Sonic with enthusiasm for what he does and approaches life in a large way, not be constantly bored and put the bare minimum of energy into something. 

Its why I can only watch Boom in small doses, because there's just nothing really interesting for me to invest in the long term.  To its credit tho, they did have Sonic more energetic and enthusiastic in the second season. 

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

This isn't really true at all, because in those series that you mentioned, the main character role just simply falls onto someone else: Goofy and Max are the main characters of Goof Troop, and the Duck family are the main characters of Ducktales. This only holds true for Sonic if the other characters had their own spin off franchises separate from the main series, but they do not. Sonic is still very much the main character in the main series of games no matter how well developed any other character might be. 

The only way for that to not be the case would be for a character to be spun off into their own franchise, but as these characters are now, they are still very much supporting character in Sonic's story, even if they have gotten focus in the past. 

You seem to be missing my point. Which is I think these characters can totally function without sonic in narratives. Any argument about what is or isn't a spin off isn't my point. My point was if sega did want to do such a thing, I think most of them could work fine. I think sonic is a good starting point and he brings himself to the table. But my point was that they could function fine.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

See, and this is what I mean when I say that his character is misinterpreted; you're blaming Sonic for things that are honestly out of his control, and that he had no direct involvement in, and story acknowledged that. Eggman was the one who chose to be evil again, Metal Sonic was the one who decided to go back to Eggman, and Starlene was the one who decided to bring back the doctor's memories. 

That's not how that works. On a few levels. But Lets start here

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Blaming Sonic for all of that, simply because he wanted to show some compassion is completely unfair to his character,

Life isn't fair and your zombie fiction story shouldn't be fair. Whether you think its fair or not, him stopping shadow from killing eggman let to point b. You want to have a moral issue with that, cool that's the whole point of that story. But point A lead to point B. And seemingly on an emotional level hasn't really gone through much. And that's uninteresting from a story telling stand point.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

and it's' these uncharitable reads that makes me disagree with the notion that his character is a problem and not people simply having a flawed interpretation of him. 

But lets get to this point, word down from on high. Ian Flynn said himself that no, you can totally blame sonic for the proceedings and think he made the wrong choice. Its supposed to be blurred. That is the intent of this story. He kinda fucked up, its up to you to decide, how much did he fuck up.

My issue is that story fails in doing that. The lines are not blurred the camera paints him as a hero , his morality basically unquestioned. The one to do that was thrown to the dogs, the other person was told " it wasn't time for this " . And the cherry on this cake is if he just saves the day and no one thinks to go " hey we could have avoided all this " . But that's the future no use dwelling on things we don't know. But we do know the characters who are left to feel the emotional brunt of this are not sonic. Sonic's friends closest friends, fine. Everyone else gets to experience that close personal loss. Even the audience isn't even convinced that sonic himself with succumb to some virus, because the story failed in convincing us that he will face any reasonable threat. Even on a logical level.

And this is the core of the problem, this isn't a misinterpretation of sonic. There was no interpretation of his character in my statement it was a retelling of what occurred. It seems as though when you list down what he does, and you look at him as character. He often is unchallenged and isn't hat interesting, but he has to be that was, he's a mascot. Or at least the powers that be, think he has to be that way.

These reads are not uncharitable, they are what occurred. Ian stated what his goal was, he failed to make that happen. Its not entirely his fault, but is the result of sonic being an unchanging character not allowed to feel too much. In a day an age where our protagonist cry on the regular, sonic can't be bothered to think " I may have done a bad" . Its boring comparatively .

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

My main issue with Boom's Sonic is that...he just lacks the energy and enthusiasm I come to expect from the character; I get that it's a different setting and interpretation, but the situations presented, while well written, aren't all that interesting to me personally. 

I want to see a Sonic with enthusiasm for what he does and approaches life in a large way, not be constantly bored and put the bare minimum of energy into something. 

Its why I can only watch Boom in small doses, because there's just nothing really interesting for me to invest in the long term.  To its credit tho, they did have Sonic more energetic and enthusiastic in the second season. 

That's a fair take. While I do enjoy boom sonic he did embrace sonic's more layed back traits. But I feel like that can easily be fixed, his character at least in boom didn't require that.

[Kuzu]

33 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You seem to be missing my point. Which is I think these characters can totally function without sonic in narratives. Any argument about what is or isn't a spin off isn't my point. My point was if sega did want to do such a thing, I think most of them could work fine. I think sonic is a good starting point and he brings himself to the table. But my point was that they could function fine.

I didn't say that these character cannot function without Sonic, I said that a large part of what makes them interesting to their fans are their interactions with Sonic, and that without him, you lose a lot of what make these characters work. 

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That's not how that works. On a few levels. But Lets start here

Life isn't fair and your zombie fiction story shouldn't be fair. Whether you think its fair or not, him stopping shadow from killing eggman let to point b. You want to have a moral issue with that, cool that's the whole point of that story. But point A lead to point B. And seemingly on an emotional level hasn't really gone through much. And that's uninteresting from a story telling stand point.

This isn't real life, it's a fictional story that is deliberately planned and penned by people. This is a meaningless point to make. 

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But lets get to this point, word down from on high. Ian Flynn said himself that no, you can totally blame sonic for the proceedings and think he made the wrong choice. Its supposed to be blurred. That is the intent of this story. He kinda fucked up, its up to you to decide, how much did he fuck up.

My issue is that story fails in doing that. The lines are not blurred the camera paints him as a hero , his morality basically unquestioned. The one to do that was thrown to the dogs, the other person was told " it wasn't time for this " . And the cherry on this cake is if he just saves the day and no one thinks to go " hey we could have avoided all this " . But that's the future no use dwelling on things we don't know. But we do know the characters who are left to feel the emotional brunt of this are not sonic. Sonic's friends closest friends, fine. Everyone else gets to experience that close personal loss. Even the audience isn't even convinced that sonic himself with succumb to some virus, because the story failed in convincing us that he will face any reasonable threat. Even on a logical level.

And this is the core of the problem, this isn't a misinterpretation of sonic. There was no interpretation of his character in my statement it was a retelling of what occurred. It seems as though when you list down what he does, and you look at him as character. He often is unchallenged and isn't hat interesting, but he has to be that was, he's a mascot. Or at least the powers that be, think he has to be that way.

These reads are not uncharitable, they are what occurred. Ian stated what his goal was, he failed to make that happen. Its not entirely his fault, but is the result of sonic being an unchanging character not allowed to feel too much. In a day an age where our protagonist cry on the regular, sonic can't be bothered to think " I may have done a bad" . Its boring comparatively .

If that's what Ian Flynn said, then I can't really say that he's wrong. If you can find the link where he says this, I would appreciate it. 

But I would still say it's wrong, because it's putting Sonic in a somewhat unfair position. If the line is supposed to be blurred, why should the story commit to condemning him for what basically amounts to a bad judgment call? What kind of lesson is that for the story? That being a good person and trying to turn the other cheek is a terrible trait? 

The entire point of Sonic, being the static protagonist that he is, is that despite everything trying to convince him that he needs to change, remains steadfast. And it's that steadfastness that gives Eggman, the guy who started all of this, a moment's pause when Sonic confronts him about it. Everyone else is succumbing to the emotional turmoil of the arc, but Sonic is still the only one who is trying to make things right, which in turn spurs his friends on to keep fighting as well. 
 

I can't tell you how to feel about Sonic's character, you're more than entitled to your opinion and feelings. But I also feel like you can't really see the value in Sonic's character as it's presented and would prefer he change into someone else to fit what you think he should be, rather than for who he actually is as a character. I think the Zombie Virus arc has done a great job of exploring his character, while still keeping his foundation intact and presenting exactly what makes him tick. It is not perfect by any means, and I do feel like there should have been more focus on Sonic's own doubts and his friends pushing him forward personally, but it's probably the most interesting the character has been to me in years and I'm kind of saddened that so many can't understand that and just write him off as boring. 

[E-122-Psi]

I do agree that in general the interpretations of Sonic (and most of the other characters) that are challenged in terms of approach and personalities tend to be FAR more interesting. In Sonic's case it in fact feels sometimes KEY to his like-ability, Sonic is a very cocky character, to the point of naked arrogance sometimes, allowing him to be complacent all the time can make him insufferable. I mean the interpretations that pay NON STOP for his arrogance like SatAm do suffer their own issues (and in some cases just trade the aforementioned complacency onto ANOTHER character that is the moral superior instead) but I understand why they do it in doses.

Sonic X is a similar case of a version of Sonic that feels too idealised and in some cases too enabled. it has a similar issue of LEANING on the idea he is sometimes careless and makes moves that could have prevented bad situations (like the whole premise itself) but they're always tasked onto straw losers/butt monkeys like Knuckles or have that aforementioned 'there's more important things at risk right now' dismissiveness. The games were a bit similar up until Lost World, cases like his cockiness at the start of SA1/2 and Unleashed leaving openings for his opponents are seldom called out which leaves that element of him feeling less like a flaw per se (and hypocritical when he makes a laughing stock out of say Knuckles similarly getting duped).

Again this is a delicate dance even simple cartoons seem to understand the grasp of. Bugs' appeal is similarly a high amount of confidence, but they often made a point that whenever it started to lean more into outright school bully arrogance, things started to go wrong for him.

While the interpretations were different in Boom (like said, Sonic was a bit TOO lethargic early on) I appreciate they dabbled in this, not just with Sonic, but with the other three games characters. It maybe helped that this Eggman, though more pitiful, was actually really savvy in manipulating all their vices, and the group as whole had no problem ribbing each other when they did something wrong without getting too harsh. We had plenty episodes that played on a characteristic of their's and it being questioned, justified or not, at which point they would be forced to either vindicate themselves or make amends.

[Shadowlax]

33 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

This isn't real life, it's a fictional story that is deliberately planned and penned by people. This is a meaningless point to make. 

Stories and how they are told are based on reality, it is a deliberate story penned by people. And they penned it in a way that did not function in the way they intended.

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If that's what Ian Flynn said, then I can't really say that he's wrong. If you can find the link where he says this, I would appreciate it. 

It is in a bumblekast. Thought it was in episode 100 it was not, so I can't actually tell you where he answered that. Sorry , Seriously sorry.

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But I would still say it's wrong, because it's putting Sonic in a somewhat unfair position. If the line is supposed to be blurred, why should the story commit to condemning him for what basically amounts to a bad judgment call?

The bad judgement call lead to what is almost the end of all life on the planet. So you know, that type of condemnation is fine and reasonable. But also because it makes for interesting storytelling. People should be mad about what happened, sonic should feel bad and be questioning himself. Its a logical thing for him to feel and its a nice way to get inside a characters head. To understand how he feels thinks. It isn't just about shitting on the character, its an in depth examining and criticism of how he operates.

If shadow has a story where he offs a guy and that offing threatens to end all life as they know it , feel free to condemn him too. That sounds like an interesting story. You could do it ultron style, like he goes back in time to kill someone to solve a problem but it makes the future worse. So he has to actually like talk someone down and relate to their experience.

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What kind of lesson is that for the story? That being a good person and trying to turn the other cheek is a terrible trait? 

Life sucks and sometimes the best decision isn't the nicest one. If you want to go with decision that makes you feel good, even if it puts people in danger. Be ready to carry that weight.

And that works for both sonic and shadow in that scenario. Sometimes life fucking sucks and stories are about life sucking

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The entire point of Sonic, being the static protagonist that he is, is that despite everything trying to convince him that he needs to change, remains steadfast. And it's that steadfastness that gives Eggman, the guy who started all of this, a moment's pause when Sonic confronts him about it.

I don't want him too change too much. There should be some change, but more so how he interacts with people. Any future altercations with say shadow should come with him feeling uncomfortable. Because no matter how much he feels right in his gut, the world almost ended because he decided that guy was wrong. His interactions with others in general should be a lot more hesitant in some regards.

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Everyone else is succumbing to the emotional turmoil of the arc, but Sonic is still the only one who is trying to make things right, which in turn spurs his friends on to keep fighting as well. 
 

Here's the rub right. And this is why it fails, the emotional turmoil is was avoidable. The argument which should be presented is making things right could have also letting the guy who has no moral qualms murdering the murderous dictator, do that. And that's sort of the issue with this narrative, the fact that this narrative was avoidable never comes up in a reasonable manner and never comes up when it matters. It never comes up with it actually can challenge sonic as a character, its some character mentioning something and then sonic goes " there's no time" and its off to the next thing. Cream effectively has the arc you describe more effectively over the course of the entire story better than sonic did.

But even then you can't describe it as " succumbing to the emotional turmoil " when the entire events whether you think its " unfair " or not is because shadow didn't kill eggman. And sonic should be feeling that shit, and he isn't and if the story is supposed to have ambiguous answers like Ian suggests. That's a failure of story telling.

Again, cream goes though the entire arc sonic is supposed to go through , better and more emotionally resonate with no context and less time. Because she is allowed to feel things.

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I can't tell you how to feel about Sonic's character, you're more than entitled to your opinion and feelings. But I also feel like you can't really see the value in Sonic's character as it's presented and would prefer he change into someone else to fit what you think he should be, rather than who actually is.

I mean I guess? I would like all the characters to be simular to what I thin they should be in theory. That's not what this is about.I'm not asking sonic to change his entire personality moral system or any of that. What I'm asking him to do is to actually feel bad and sort of take in all that's going on, because it never really feels like he does. To consider what has been said to him, be a person. And if being a person is " changing him to fit what I think he should be " sonic was never a good character in the first place.

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I think the Zombie Virus arc has done a great job of exploring his character, while still keeping his foundation intact and presenting exactly what makes him tick. It is not perfect by any means, and I do feel like there should have been more focus on Sonic's own doubts and his friends pushing him forward personally, but it's probably the most interesting the character has been to me in years and I'm kind of saddened that so many can't understand that and just write him off as boring. 

I think its rather surface, personally.

I think his lazy boom counter part got more emotional depth out of admitting being right doesn't matter and kind of getting jelous over amy's infatuation of a musical artist than anything that happened in this arc. Sonic here just reaffirms his opinion with no self doubt no nothing, its uninteresting. He's just tired.

[E-122-Psi]

I think the issue there is less Sonic was WRONG and more that the comic has placed a complex moral position onto him that would have consequences either way and then just tries to forget about it rather than play on it, likely because there isn't really one clear right or wrong answer. Ian made the same mistake in his Archie run, Sonic's showing compassion for the sanity broke Eggman ended up causing a chain reaction of blows for the heroes (along with some earlier hubris causing public distrust towards the Freedom Fighter group and NICOLE), but the former was never really played on besides one fleeting moment Sonic curses ever feeling pity for Eggman and the latter does the same sweep out of importance when Sally is robotocized. It's not really something they can get a clear answer or designate a true 'bad guy' besides Eggman out of in all this, but if you're going to play on these philosophies and ethics of the cast having long term consequences you can at least show the emotional baggage for it and have them stand up for how and why they act the way they do. If anything it looks more callous on Sonic's part if he just forgets about it

Again this is why I think Sonic and the Black Knight and Lost Worlds, while maybe not the best written stories, are good in how they challenge Sonic's approach and characteristics and how he is made to either admit and amend for his faults or defend and fight for his philosophies. They are the nearest to effective character studies for his games counterpart, Sonic is not made to do either in those above cases in the comics, he is never challenged or questioned, so this aspect of his personality never grows.

[Kuzu]

@Shadowlax At this point, I don't feel like there's anything else I need to say because it's clear you've drawn your line in the sand and I've drawn mine. All we can do is simply wait until said story arc is over and see where this goes. 

 

29 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think the issue there is less Sonic was WRONG and more that the comic has placed a complex moral position onto him that would have consequences either way and then just tries to forget about it rather than play on it, likely because there isn't really one clear right or wrong answer. Ian made the same mistake in his Archie run, Sonic's showing compassion for the sanity broke Eggman ended up causing a chain reaction of blows for the heroes (along with some earlier hubris causing public distrust towards the Freedom Fighter group and NICOLE), but the former was never really played on besides one fleeting moment Sonic curses ever feeling pity for Eggman and the latter does the same sweep out of importance when Sally is robotocized. It's not really something they can get a clear answer or designate a true 'bad guy' besides Eggman out of in all this, but if you're going to play on these philosophies and ethics of the cast having long term consequences you can at least show the emotional baggage for it and have them stand up for how and why they act the way they do. If anything it looks more callous on Sonic's part if he just forgets about it

The Mecha Sally arc was cut short due to the reboot to be fair, so we never really saw the fallout of what happened with it after everything was said and done. 

[E-122-Psi]

34 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

@Shadowlax At this point, I don't feel like there's anything else I need to say because it's clear you've drawn your line in the sand and I've drawn mine. All we can do is simply wait until said story arc is over and see where this goes. 

 

The Mecha Sally arc was cut short due to the reboot to be fair, so we never really saw the fallout of what happened with it after everything was said and done. 

True, but when the story has snowballed THAT much in the comics, it was generally a sign that is far past the issue anymore, even if it is long term in effect. It was actually kinda bad for starting conflicts and then trying to shrug them off by having them just before something far more major started. It felt like faux soap opera drama, just characters screaming at each other for cheap tension. The slap was only an exception because so many fans made clear they WEREN'T letting that one go, as much as the writers initially thought they could.

Either way I think even if they did plan to do it afterwards, it would have felt like an awkward afterthought and like the story wasn't paced properly. Even without the politics going on behind the scenes cutting everything short, I think it was a terrible idea to start a very serious Sally vs Mina ethical conflict JUST before robotocizing the latter for example, which basically felt like retiring Sally from the debate, just like Sonic was handwaved from his.

That said I take interest in the fact that the one conflict Ian did very hastily try to culminate before the reboot was Sonic's bitter disownment of Silver, like he felt like that was one conflict that could NOT be left unresolved out of respect for Sonic's characterisation, he HAD to be shown forgiving him before it was over (that said he had a bitter fight with Knuckles as well but they just kinda forgot about that next time they met).

[DabigRG]

17 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

.

That said I take interest in the fact that the one conflict Ian did very hastily try to culminate before the reboot was Sonic's bitter disownment of Silver, like he felt like that was one conflict that could NOT be left unresolved out of respect for Sonic's characterisation, he HAD to be shown forgiving him before it was over (that said he had a bitter fight with Knuckles as well but they just kinda forgot about that next time they met).

To be fair, that next appearance was Endangered Species 2.5, which had Knuckles get whisked away from the battle chasing Thrasi. And 2.0 was already cutting a SiXTH subplot to fit in Team Fighters before the order came down to cut the Echidnas and Safron, so... 

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

True, but when the story has snowballed THAT much in the comics, it was generally a sign that is far past the issue anymore, even if it is long term in effect. It was actually kinda bad for starting conflicts and then trying to shrug them off by having them just before something far more major started. The slap was only an exception because so many fans made clear they WEREN'T letting that one go, as much as the writers initially thought they could.

Either way I think even if they did plan to do it afterwards, it would have felt like an awkward afterthought and like the story wasn't paced properly. Even without the politics going on behind the scenes cutting everything short, I think it was a terrible idea to start a very serious Sally vs Mina ethical conflict JUST before robotocizing the latter for example, which basically felt like retiring Sally from the debate, just like Sonic was handwaved from his.

That said I take interest in the fact that the one conflict Ian did very hastily try to culminate before the reboot was Sonic's bitter disownment of Silver, like he felt like that was one conflict that could NOT be left unresolved out of respect for Sonic's characterisation, he HAD to forgive him (that said he had a bitter fight with Knuckles as well but they just kinda forgot about that next time they met).

It's impossible to know at this point; iirc, right before the reboot, Mina actually was beginning to realize that she might have gone too far and started to reconcile with Nicole. It was actually one of the last subplots before World's Collide if I remember. It's sad that we'll never see the result of that.

I do think you got a bit of it with Sonic having no choice but to let Naugus be seated as king despite his protests, or risk being branded a traitor to the kingdom. 

 

Agreed on the Sonic & Knuckles thing, but I don't feel like that fight was severe enough to really cause a rift between them 

[E-122-Psi]

16 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, that next appearance was Endangered Species 2.5, which had Knuckles get whisked away from the battle chasing Thrasi. And 2.0 was already cutting a SiXTH subplot to fit in Team Fighters before the order came down to cut the Echidnas and Safron, so... 

Though I remember even before the big thing with Thrash and the Penders cast, their interaction was pretty nonchalant. It felt like another case of 'we don't know how to resolve this, distract it with something bigger'.

I think this is the thing Shadowlax was complaining about with IDW, starting a conflict or moral dilemma and then putting it just before a bigger picture so they can go 'aren't there more important things right now?'

It's kinda bad because outright having Knuckles commit such a dog kicker as snarling 'It's YOUR fault Sally got robotocized' is something that kinda needs resolve, emotional distress caused or not. I think this is why Sally got such a bad reputation, so many of these little dog kicking emotional outbursts just before the bigger picture tried to make them not important anymore.

"These people want resolution, okay? So you get your little butt back in there and you RESOLVE!"

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Though I remember even before the big thing with Thrash and the Penders cast, their interaction was pretty nonchalant. It felt like another case of 'we don't know how to resolve this, distract it with something bigger'.

I think this is the thing Shadowlax was complaining about with IDW, starting a conflict or moral dilemma and then putting it just before a bigger picture so they can go 'aren't there more important things right now?'

It's kinda bad because outright having Knuckles commit such a dog kicker as snarling 'It's YOUR fault Sally got robotocized' is something that kinda needs resolve, emotional distress caused or not. I think this is why Sally got such a bad reputation, so many of these little dog kicking emotional outbursts just before the bigger picture tried to make them not important anymore.

The next time they interacted was the issue with Thrash

[DabigRG]

6 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

 

I think this is the thing Shadowlax was complaining about with IDW, starting a conflict or moral dilemma and then putting it just before a bigger picture so they can go 'aren't there more important things right now?'

 

Admittedly, it was a minor bit of trepidation I had with the Deadly Six being brought in.

[E-122-Psi]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The next time they interacted was the issue with Thrash

Did Thrash's betrayal come in before or after? I admit my memories bad with this. I remember after and Sonic and Knuckles having SOME casual interaction beforehand though I could be wrong.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, E-122-Psi said:

Did Thrash's betrayal come in before or after? I admit my memories bad with this. I remember after and Sonic and Knuckles having SOME casual interaction beforehand though I could be wrong.

Yea, the thing with Thrash happens a few pages later. I read back on their little spat and it didn't really end severely enough for them to be on bad terms. Knuckles just said he can't help him and Sonic just concedes like that, but it didn't really feel like there was any lingering resentment. 

[DabigRG]

On the Mecha Sally arc though, I think the fact that so many things were left in such a tense or uncomfortable middlepoint was what the story was going for. Beating Eggman and then the Iron Queen should've been the happily ever after the world deserved after 11+ years of war games, but all they did was shuffle the villainous deck with interest and reveal or in cases like Nicole create a LOT of uncomfortable issues that caused things to increasingly go to shit.

[E-122-Psi]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Yea, the thing with Thrash happens a few pages later. I read back on their little spat and it didn't really end severely enough for them to be on bad terms. Knuckles just said he can't help him and Sonic just concedes like that, but it didn't really feel like there was any lingering resentment. 

I guess it was again the starting of conflict with Knuckles dog kicker of a line. Saying it's someone's fault a loved one is practically lost is something hard to just handwave. Maybe if they hadn't gone that far with the vitriol and just had Knuckles upset it would have felt smoother, but yeah, that line left a bad aftertaste.

12 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

On the Mecha Sally arc though, I think the fact that so many things were left in such a tense or uncomfortable middlepoint was what the story was going for. Beating Eggman and then the Iron Queen should've been the happily ever after the world deserved after 11+ years of war games, but all they did was shuffle the villainous deck with interest and reveal or in cases like Nicole create a LOT of uncomfortable issues that caused things to increasingly go to shit.

I do admit that the Mecha Sally arc felt like it was a very unfortunately-placed case of a darker more cynical arc where all the cast were being emotionally tested and at their most uneasy with each other. That said I don't think the pacing helped matters much either, setting up a bloated amount of arcs and conflicts left dangling and then this lull afterwards that just felt like loads of formulaic near misses with Mecha Sally. They likely could have resolved a lot of the plot in the time before the reboot, but it felt like they were dithering, hoping they could use the switch as an excuse to not have to write a proper ending to this complicated mess. As a result, rather than being some sort of full testament to the original run's darker more emotional writing, it just felt like an exaggeration of all it's writing flaws and cheap angst. All the retired characters left on a note of unresolved misery.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I guess it was again the starting of conflict with Knuckles dog kicker of a line. Saying it's someone's fault a loved one is practically lost is something hard to just handwave. Maybe if they hadn't gone that far with the vitriol and just had Knuckles upset it would have felt smoother, but yeah, that line left a bad aftertaste.

It's not exactly out of character for Knuckles to overreact being the high strung person that he is, and Sally is a good friend of his. It's pretty understandable for him to be upset at what happened to her, but it wouldn't make much sense for him to hold it against Sonic either because as you said, it was something out of his control and Knuckles should know Sonic well enough to understand that. 

Julie-Su even comforts him afterward asking if he's alright since she knows Sally was Knuckles` friend.