Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

I think the movie is a good reconciliation of Sonic's character while still framing it under his development.

Movie!Sonic has the same energy and zeal for life that his game counterpart has, but lacks the emotional connections. So if Sonic is the type of character who's personality and actions influence the people around him, I guess the movie puts him into a position of having nobody around him to influence.

It puts him into a position where he's forced to dwell on himself. I feel like if there is a movie sequel, its gonna focus on Sonic becoming the Adventurer that he is in the games.

[Sonic Fan J]

8 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Static character doesn't mean " the character goes through everything and never changes ever" it can mean but these days it often doesn't. Static character means the character goes through the same arc over and over. The TMNT are static characters, they change and grow, but every 5 or so years they reset and everyone ungrows. Eventually the same will happen to sonic . But what that means is being a static character doesn't mean he can't grow or change, in fact quite the opposite. It just means at some point he rubberbands back and restarts the loop. An approach I think would be much healthier for the characters in general and sonic as a series.

It does not require him literally being the same character in everything it can allow for him to go through similar growths.

So to start off what you are describing here is a reset, not a static character. Resets are typically things that happen in most long running narratives, and usually to adapt to the story to the times. A static character does in fact, not change. that's kind of why people complain about it with Sonic despite his static nature being a point of reference to show how the rest of the world changes. It's a problem that stems from investing in Sonic as a person when he is typically presented as larger than life. Nothing wrong with that, but it will create a lot of disappointment.

13 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You know you messed up right?

We are talking about the zombot situation, at least that was the context. Sonic explicitly didn't solve the situation, the world was almost ended and it could have been entirely avoided. Shadow was very much going to solve the situation, but he wasn't able to leading to that. Even when all the zombots are gone, the problem wont be solved. The problem is eggman. And until sonic does, or doesn't get in the way of that. He wont solve that problem, and wont regret all the horrific shit eggman does I guess.

And now you are talking out of context. The zombot situation did not exist when Shadow wanted to off Eggman. Sonic saw Mr. Tinker. He did not see the future calamity that Shadow's actions would have solved. He saw an innocent man who he believed deserved the right to try and live what life he had in peace. So when you say he was dealing with the zombot scenario Eggman hadn't even engaged that plan yet as Eggman's psyche and memories were not present in his conscious mind and that is what Sonic was responding too. Hence why I say Sonic lives in the moment, and he is described as a shortsighted character so it really shouldn't be a surprise that he does.

What you are advocating as the solution to future problems is kill an innocent man who happens to share the same body as that of the madman. But as the madman was not present, Sonic chose to protect the innocent man as befits his sense of right and wrong. He acted on his personal justice as he typically does.

And sure, Eggman is the long term problem but that isn't how Sonic thinks. He thinks in the moment and the moment only. The problem he was faced with Eggman was letting an innocent man be killed because he shared the same body as a villain. Sonic acted on his sense of justice and prevented that murder.

And regretting things isn't in Sonic's character. It's taking actions when something does happen based on his values which you seem to be ignoring in this entire debate. Sonic is an act on what he sees type of character. Not on what happened or what could happen, but what he sees happening. this is why I say you want to change him as you don't want him being like this. That is advocating for a change.

23 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Wanting to solve a problem doesn't mean you can't regret or feel bad the problem happened. That's bonkers. That's nuts. This is basic story telling you can't just say sonic can just slide by basic story telling because you like him, are you serious?

Wanting to solve the problem is how Sonic reacts to mistakes or bad things happening. You are putting the story before the character and not considering at all how Sonic functions. That's why I said you want Sonic to dwell on it. But that isn't in Sonic's character. you want it to be and that is why you are frustrated with him. Something bad happened because of an action he took, but he didn't stop and think about it, which is part of his character to begin with. Sonic's reaction to a problem is to address it, not prevent it. he's very immature in that way and again, shortsighted. This is where Sonic being a static character becomes a problem if you are trying to tell the story from his point of view because him being a larger than life figure rather than a humanized character conflict here. It is rarely a good idea to tell the story from Sonic's point of view unless you are trying to establish his character so you know what to expect from him. As it turns out, you're appalled by him because he actually isn't the good-two-shoes you think he is. He's actually rather passive unless his sense of Justice is triggered. But just because you are appalled by that doesn't mean that basic story telling is being ignored. Respecting Sonic's character and telling the story based on that is what needs to happen and what Flynn actually has done regardless of execution. So no, I'm noyt ignoring basic story telling or saying Sonic should either, I'm saying Sonic's character has to be respected while writing the story and the two have to work together harmoniously. If the story being told doesn't work with Sonic's character and vice versa then it should not be an officially written story.

But we are also talking about this in a vacuum now and not considering that with a static character, and one who only lives in the moment, it is important to make use of the supporting cast and the world itself to create pathos and disdain. This is where I would argue that too much of the cast has been being used and that Shadow was a waste and is even the actual problem narratively. If you remove Shadow from this whole mess then the question was never even presented. Further, asking it all when it does not fit the setting was a grave error on Ian Flynn in the first part. Yet, he still respected Sonic's character to write him as he would be in that situation. Shortsighted, in the moment, and not looking back at the past. the results speak for themselves and are actually required for the story to function at all. So when you accuse me of letting Sonic slide by basic story telling, to me you are talking a bout a character growth arc, which a static character like Sonic who has a flat arc will not have. As Sonic will not have a growth arc it is not basic story telling in regards to his character.

40 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Not in the context we are talking about. Which brings up the issue with using his character like this. Now you can blame, the narrative structure context what have you. But Ian Flynn in this comic has created a situation where the mess to clean up, is eggman existing. They have brought up the question of would it be better if eggman is dead. And is eggman causing myriad death and endless destruction.

So him getting a free pass in this situation would him being rewarded for not only not solving the problem , and making the situation worse. And allowing future situations.

But you really messed up, because your diction "he usually can clean up his messes" he does not. Sonic often in saving the day leaves horrific death and destruction in his wake fighting eggman and bouces. Heck that's the plot of the comic, heck that's the end of sonic forces. He fucked off and left.

Outside of Chaos flooding Station Square I have to disagree that Sonic causes death and destruction. typically he prevents most Eggman situations from being worse and that is what most people in universe see. Eggman is mucking things up and Sonic stops him before things get even worse. That's where most people consider him a hero. They look to him about as much as they do Batman to clean up afterwards. They don't expect him to partake in the clean up and he doesn't. But he did stop things from getting worse. And they expect him to do so again.

Now for this situation we don't even know if anyone will even affiliate Sonic with it beyond those aware of the decision he made, which was made without knowing the future, and not looking back at the past as is true to his character. But it is a mess he's trying to clean up and failing miserably at. But even despite that he is trying and giving it everything he has to solve it. He isn't dwelling on it because that isn't like him. But this mess isn't even 100% on him. He didn't even instigate it. He protected an innocent. That did not create the mess. It allowed Starline to create the mess. Even if Rouge had not found Eggman Starline was still going to find him there, still restore his memory even without Metal Sonic, and Eggman still would have initiated the Metal Virus. Yet you are blaming Sonic for Starline's actions when Sonic had no interaction with him before Eggman was restored.

And that's the thing, you say Sonic never cleans up his messes, but most of the messes in the games are not his. He's usually stopping other people's messes from getting worse. The biggest mess he is directly responsible for he solves, and that is in Unleashed when his compassion and shortsightedness got the planet split apart. But you know what Sonic did as soon as he knew there was a solution? He went and put the planet back together again. And even the zombot arc he keeps trying even appealing to Eggman to fix it. He's looking for a solution and trying to support possible solutions and coming up short. It's not from a lack of trying or not caring that he isn't succeeding, but the plot dictating that he doesn't.

59 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

So what you are describing here is a character that never changes, allows awful shit to happen for his own self gratification , and the story rewards him by being a hero and never has to learn about being a better hero.

Sounds like you just described an asshole. An asshole with no interesting character traits whatsoever. Who the story tells is good, but seemingly doesn't really demonstrait besides his ability to hit things which is not unique to him.

I would never expect Sonic to be a better hero because he is only a hero in the perspective of others based on the consequences of his involvement. And yeah, he isn't proactive. He doesn't try to stop things before the could happen. People do praise him as a hero because of what they experience. But Sonic does not call himself a hero. He allows bad things to happen unless he sees them about to happen and acts on his own sense of justice. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but Sonic is not a hero. Everything your saying makes him a horrible hero is because he isn't one. As you say, he's an asshole, and the only thing that keeps people from realizing that is that he is charming which makes him come across as cheeky instead of as a straight asshole. And that his actions do save people when he does get involved in a short term perspective is why people paint him a hero. Should he be considered one? depends on the situation. If his actions just saved your life and could have gotten him hurt or worse in the process more often than not you'd consider him a hero in that situation. And hat's all hero really is is someone who risks their life to protect the life of another. Sonic doesn't make a career out of that or try to be the Justice League, rather following  a live and let live mentality only acting when he sees something that triggers his sense of justice.

So feel free to find that boring, but I actually find it refreshing and it keeps Sonic from becoming an authoritarian figure like Batman, the Justice League and SHIELD, and any other superhero force who forces their will and way of life onto everyone. As a character who represents  freedom, Sonic has to allow Eggman the chance to make the decision to be evil or not. And that again is respecting the character which I find to be very interesting. Seeing how Sonic's unchanging approach to life affects his world is extremely interesting to me and makes Sonic himself an extremely interesting and engaging story. That's why I advocate for seeing him adventuring and not fighting villains as it will show more of his character.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Flaws only matter when characters or they are criticized, those things aren't with sonic. So those words mean nothing. But here's the issue in the context we were discussing which is the zombot arc. Sonic isn't a career hero, he's an adventurer. Shadow is though, that's his whole deal. Sonic decided to question him, the moment sonic did that. Sonic entered career hero territory. He decided that instead of adventuring and minding his own he was going to make big boi hero decisions that would have detrimental effects.

Flaws also matter when they set the story in motion. A character who is clumsy can set a story in motion by not hanging up a phone properly causing an important phone call to be missed resulting in a full story where the character's clumsiness never needs to addressed or the character hit over the head with it. Saying they only matter in one instance is a very closedminded approach to the application and use of flaws in a narrative. Again you are describing and sticking solely to a growth arc which Sonic as a character will not have. And you keep using what happened after Sonic's action which is so vastly outside of the realm of anything any character knew was going to happen. The zombot arc does not matter. The argument Shadow had was Eggman hurts people so kill him. The argument Sonic had was Mr. Tinker is innocent, let him live his life. The Zombot Arc doesn't matter in that context of Sonic's decision just whether or not he believes Eggman will hurt people again. His character flaw being that he lives in the moment and is shortsighted doesn't see that looking at Mr. Tinker so he acts on what he sees. And acting on his sense of Justice does not make him a career hero at all. As you said, Shadow is a career hero, but Sonic is someone who acts on his own sense of Justice and would never allow someone who is fearful for their wellbeing and has done nothing wrong to be attacked. That goes against his values and does not require being a career hero. If you saw someone being bullied and stepped in would that make you a career hero? No, it just means you acted on your own sense of Justice which is exactly what Sonic did here.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

If sonic wanted to be an adventurer, they should have sonic just go away. " Welp I guess I don't agree with you shadow, don't kill him too hard" but he a gripe, he had an ideal. He wanted to be , a hero. And that's the problem, once we entered that realm. Sonic's flaws, should have been called in to question. And the issue is , this isn't the first time this happened. Every once in a while instead of just being a  "guy who loves adventure" they push him to career hero territory. And that's when his personality or lack their of in some cases, comes out in full force. Thats when you notice, that hes kind of an asshole who cares about nothing.

And this is a fully fundamental misunderstanding of having one's own sense of justice. Sonic did not want to be a hero. He saw an innocent man under attack and that triggered his sense of justice and he acted on it. He thought it was wrong and intervened. Saying he should have just left is ignoring an entire facet of Sonic's character which is his inability to ignore those who he sees in need. He saw Mr. Tinker in need and had to act on it because his sense of justice demanded it, not because he wanted to be a hero. Sonic is vain and an egotist, don't get me wrong there, bit he already knows he is viewed as a hero and plays it down in most cases because that isn't who he is. He's just a guy that loves adventure who also as t so happens can't ignore what he perceives as injustice that he is actively bearing witness too. That has nothing to do with heroics but is rather a different angle of Sonic's ego. And though it is a different angle of his ego, it also shows that he does care even when you try to dismiss it because he doesn't care in a big picture way like you think he and everyone else should. As it turns out though, not all characters are like that.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

Its not all bad, you see sonic boom saw this and went. " Oh sonic is kind of a giant asshole , lets call him out on that" and they did. If you want him to exist how he is, if you want him to be static without seeming like some sort of sociopath. Either the characters or the world need to criticize him in some meaningful way or has to criticize himself. And neither of those things are happening.

Sonic won't criticize himself as that isn't in his character, and the world doesn't criticize him as it doesn't react to every detail of how he goes about doing what he does. Most of the world only notices what they perceive as the good he has done. Just like most people don't have a clue who Shadow is, most people react to Sonic based only on what they know. His friends trust him to save the day because that is their experience with him. The rest of the world only sees that he stops bigger messes from happening and helps out nigh everyone he meets with their problems. What you are advocating for is for the world to actually learn who he is as a person and the decisions that he makes and to punish him for it. The problem is, that actually won't happen because Sonic typically doesn't engage with people. For as outgoing as he is, he is very much an introvert who stays outside and away from everyone, putting on a show when he is present. And the funny thing about the show he puts on is it's one that inspires confidence and the desire to step up and give it your all. When you look at that it's little wonder people in universe and out  don't see the sociopathic world ender you do. If anything, most fan content of Shadow that I've seen calls Sonic out best, he is an idiot if anything who is really just skilled enough and caring enough to fudge his way through and get good enough results. It's honestly why Shadow and Knuckles are ideal foils to Sonic because they have the sense of duty that he lacks and are capable of calling him out on being the idiot that he is.

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I'm not failing to grasp the character at all. If anything I would argue you are if i'm being blunt.

And I'm afraid I disagree. Your entire argument has been that plot, the plot, the plot, and how it should be. You have yet to actual explore Sonic's use or the data available about him to actually look at why things happen the way they do and how Sonic gets offs scot-free. You call him a sociopath who will let the world burn despite the fact that the evidence against that is directly in front of you showing he wont. You say he doesn't care despite everything he does for people and the anger he feels when he does see people put in danger. You ignore every aspect of his character at every opportunity to sell him as sociopath more dangerous to the world than Infinite was, simply because he isn't a proactive hero when he never was to begin with. Your complete and total ignoring of his character for the plot, plot, plot, with no regard to how his character and the plot should work harmoniously. You ignore what his world sees of him and only go off what you see and say everyone else should feel the same. You demonstrate zero understanding of his character and then limit yourself to only seeing growth arcs as valid storytelling. When you do all of that I'm afraid I find it impossible to believe that you have any understanding of Sonic as a character. He flies right over you with every level of depth, nuance, and detail completely going unseen, simply because he doesn't have a growth arc. I'm sorry, but that isn't understanding the character at all.

[E-122-Psi]

35 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

Flaws also matter when they set the story in motion. A character who is clumsy can set a story in motion by not hanging up a phone properly causing an important phone call to be missed resulting in a full story where the character's clumsiness never needs to addressed or the character hit over the head with it. 

I dunno, I think if in such a scenario, if the character were to make such a key and avoidable screwup, and had this tendency as a RECURRENT VICE, you'd want them to have this folly thrown in their face at least once to maintain their likability. A karma/idiot houdini often is a very insufferable character (case in point exaggerating Spongebob's inconsiderate antics to life destroying levels and downplaying the number of times he gets a comeuppance for it are a key reason fans started to find him less and less endearing). I mean if SatAm Sonic had all those times being reckless almost got everyone killed and was NEVER called out or made to acknowledge this error, he would be flat out unlikeable, that is the key thing that keeps him grounded (or alternatively in Game Guy when he arrogantly denies he screwed up, he gets a cosmic comeuppance).

The comic example is admittedly a different scenario, this is a very delicate philosophical dilemma for Sonic that doesn't really have a clear right answer. I do think that, for the sake of story depth, it SHOULD have been brought back up when their were consequences, since not doing so verges on saying that Sonic's approach is right, regardless of horrific aftermath, when again there isn't really a true right answer. Plus, again, showing Sonic acknowledging that his decision had repercussions would make him more sympathetic and human all the same. Sure it was indirect and difficult either way, but that sort of reaction is a basic human emotion and shows Sonic's empathy and sense of responsibility for those he protects.

I think if you want to tackle a tough subject like that, you can at least go all the way with it rather than trying to pretend it never happened.

I think this is a recurrent issue with the 'darker' takes on the Sonic formula, since Eggman is often a bigger threat and there tend to be more dire and permanent repercussions for any wrong move the hero team makes. Sonic's carefree attitude and maintaining of the status quo is harder to depict as making him likeable in such interpretations, since such dramatic undertones require the characters feel emotional weight.

A similar thing happened in Archie. It looked like after the Iron Dominion saga they were having a reality ensues moment for the Freedom Fighters, with Sonic and Sally wanting to party and date over their victory but being reminded there were actual casualties from the last incident, and some were on their backs for not taking the threat seriously enough. This could have a good direction to go for the comic, having the heroes realise they had become distanced from the people they save and face the inadvertent callous weight of saying 'We saved MOST of the world = win', but AGAIN they try to forget about this after ONE instance despite the plot still being on-going with that, with Sally being robotocized feeling like a definitive 'abort button' to get them out of this delicate subject. You want to make this sort of subject matter a thing in your work and place a potentially ugly or complicated side to the cast's actions, you have to stick to your guns about it.

[StaticMania]

19 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

...you'd want them to have this folly thrown in their face at least once to maintain their likability.

Wouldn't the fact that Sonic got infected be this thing?

Being blamed over and over any time he makes a mistake isn't really the same thing, it's just something that's predictable and drags.

Character reactions don't always need to be reasonable.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Sonic Fan J said:

 

And now you are talking out of context. The zombot situation did not exist when Shadow wanted to off Eggman. Sonic saw Mr. Tinker. He did not see the future calamity that Shadow's actions would have solved. He saw an innocent man who he believed deserved the right to try and live what life he had in peace. So when you say he was dealing with the zombot scenario Eggman hadn't even engaged that plan yet as Eggman's psyche and memories were not present in his conscious mind and that is what Sonic was responding too. Hence why I say Sonic lives in the moment, and he is described as a shortsighted character so it really shouldn't be a surprise that he does.

What you are advocating as the solution to future problems is kill an innocent man who happens to share the same body as that of the madman. But as the madman was not present, Sonic chose to protect the innocent man as befits his sense of right and wrong. He acted on his personal justice as he typically does.

 

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And sure, Eggman is the long term problem but that isn't how Sonic thinks. He thinks in the moment and the moment only. The problem he was faced with Eggman was letting an innocent man be killed because he shared the same body as a villain. Sonic acted on his sense of justice and prevented that murder.

Cool, and that choice resulted in bad. And he and the people around him if they want to be interesting need to feel away about that and if the story is supposed to be anbigouus. As Ian Flynn suggests he needs to be criticized in a way that makes him feel a way

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And regretting things isn't in Sonic's character.

I don't that's true. And I think he should do it more. Would modernize him a great deal.

 

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It's taking actions when something does happen based on his values which you seem to be ignoring in this entire debate. Sonic is an act on what he sees type of character. Not on what happened or what could happen, but what he sees happening. this is why I say you want to change him as you don't want him being like this. That is advocating for a change.

You realize my argument here. If you boil it down, is I agree with everything you just said in this square, but he and the narrative should react to that more, just sometimes in ways that are negative and critical.

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Wanting to solve the problem is how Sonic reacts to mistakes or bad things happening. You are putting the story before the character and not considering at all how Sonic functions. That's why I said you want Sonic to dwell on it. But that isn't in Sonic's character.

If sonic is a character that's supposed to be a person. If sonic is kind, if sonic isn't a villain. He dwells on things, and he has, he should just do it more often. I do not like the idea that a basic facet of empathy is not in sonic's character. One because its not true, but also because it paints sonic as a complete asshole.

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you want it to be and that is why you are frustrated with him. Something bad happened because of an action he took, but he didn't stop and think about it, which is part of his character to begin with. Sonic's reaction to a problem is to address it, not prevent it.

Sure. He should be criticized for that more and he should sometimes feel bad for being that way.

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he's very immature in that way and again, shortsighted. This is where Sonic being a static character becomes a problem if you are trying to tell the story from his point of view because him being a larger than life figure rather than a humanized character conflict here. It is rarely a good idea to tell the story from Sonic's point of view unless you are trying to establish his character so you know what to expect from him. As it turns out, you're appalled by him because he actually isn't the good-two-shoes you think he is.

So pause. How would you frame that story then, the zombot story. I'm curious.

But two, I don't care sonic isn't perfect. Its what I want, but I also want him to feel bad sometimes and be criticized for not being perfect. But If I'm appalled by anything is his actions or rather how they read in this context. Sonic

• Both sides a dictator
• Equates shadow's abuse and mental manipulation to the continued choices of said dictator he both sided
• Then throughout the zombot arc, never really stops to consider his actions may have lead to this*

I'm a put an * next to that last one. Because he may think later in the story, can't predict the future , not fair to suggest it wont happen. But as it stands his actions are uncaring at best and cruel at worst. I don't give a shit sonic isn't a goody two shoes, my preference for boom sonic suggest I prefer. But sonic going " Hey guy who's dad manipulated your memories into thinking your best friend said blow up the planet. Who's entire first series of actions were done under false pretenses and if given full information and choice would have just not done anything. You yes you you are the same as this guy who literally decides to be a murderous mecha dictator" . That's gross. I'm appalled by that. In our day an age where authoritarian strongmen are on the rise, that sort of comparison is irresponsible.

Sonic being a bit of a dick is whatever. Sorry this is divergent from our normal point but I wanted to point out , that's my issue. And that could have been prevented if he was criticized and the actions could have been lightened a little in retrospect if he  felt bad about it. It doesn't even have to be a big deal

 

 

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But we are also talking about this in a vacuum now and not considering that with a static character, and one who only lives in the moment, it is important to make use of the supporting cast and the world itself to create pathos and disdain.

Cool. I kind of agree with you. But my criticism lies in the people constructing these stories not doing that these days.

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This is where I would argue that too much of the cast has been being used and that Shadow was a waste and is even the actual problem narratively. If you remove Shadow from this whole mess then the question was never even presented. Further, asking it all when it does not fit the setting was a grave error on Ian Flynn in the first part.

 

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Yet, he still respected Sonic's character to write him as he would be in that situation. Shortsighted, in the moment, and not looking back at the past.

And in contexts like these it makes him looks like a giant asshole. If you are going to write a story like these the character should be equipped to handle it. Sonic may need to have gasp empathy , regret. Normal emotions that would not make him not the person he is. But would in fact make his character better because he would still choose his path knowing its right. That's what I mean by ignoring flaws of basic story telling. Sonic isn't unique characters like sonic have existed in fiction forever, he's missing the human bits that make that character fun.

 

 

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Now for this situation we don't even know if anyone will even affiliate Sonic with it beyond those aware of the decision he made, which was made without knowing the future, and not looking back at the past as is true to his character. But it is a mess he's trying to clean up and failing miserably at. But even despite that he is trying and giving it everything he has to solve it. He isn't dwelling on it because that isn't like him.

 

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But this mess isn't even 100% on him.

 

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He didn't even instigate it. He protected an innocent. That did not create the mess. It allowed Starline to create the mess. Even if Rouge had not found Eggman Starline was still going to find him there, still restore his memory even without Metal Sonic, and Eggman still would have initiated the Metal Virus. Yet you are blaming Sonic for Starline's actions when Sonic had no interaction with him before Eggman was restored.

This is incorrect. Starline was continuously testing the virus, we have no idea as viewers that starline would have even released it. He could have said " too many unknown variables and just left it alone" he's a lot more cautious than Ivo in many respects. Or at least he tries to be, he acts when he thinks he has 100% certainty.  And we can't really judge this scenario on what if's. Also you know eggman augmented the virus if you forgot.

At the end of the day, the one who released the virus is eggman. If shadow kills eggman, that doesn't happen. Sonic thought that , killing him would be a waist. That is the story. That is what happened, and because of that sonic is at least partially at fault. The other person being rouge.

You may feel a way or feel its unfair, but that's what happened. Its sonic's fault. He should be dealing with that. And you can't deny it, because Ian Flynn wants it to be framed like that. That's litterally the intent of the narrative. My issue is that it doesn't actually criticize him for doing that. And his feelings don't get as personal as they should.

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So feel free to find that boring, but I actually find it refreshing and it keeps Sonic from becoming an authoritarian figure like Batman, the Justice League and SHIELD, and any other superhero force who forces their will and way of life onto everyone.

Why is it either " He does nothing " or " He's an authoritarian" , why can't I just want " He feels bad because maybe he thinks he ma have made the wrong call and that sort of internal struggle makes for interesting reading"

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As a character who represents  freedom, Sonic has to allow Eggman the chance to make the decision to be evil or not. And that again is respecting the character which I find to be very interesting. Seeing how Sonic's unchanging approach to life affects his world is extremely interesting to me and makes Sonic himself an extremely interesting and engaging story. That's why I advocate for seeing him adventuring and not fighting villains as it will show more of his character.

That's only interesting if the story pushes back against him in a way that provokes questions or puts him in intersting scenarios that makes him question. The zombot arc did neither, a lot of sonic stories do neither, that's my issue.

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Flaws also matter when they set the story in motion. A character who is clumsy can set a story in motion by not hanging up a phone properly causing an important phone call to be missed resulting in a full story where the character's clumsiness never needs to addressed or the character hit over the head with it. Saying they only matter in one instance is a very closedminded approach to the application and use of flaws in a narrative.

I'm only talking about it in one instance because our context is framed around characterization or lack their of.

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Again you are describing and sticking solely to a growth arc which Sonic as a character will not have. And you keep using what happened after Sonic's action which is so vastly outside of the realm of anything any character knew was going to happen. The zombot arc does not matter. The argument Shadow had was Eggman hurts people so kill him. The argument Sonic had was Mr. Tinker is innocent, let him live his life. The Zombot Arc doesn't matter in that context of Sonic's decision just whether or not he believes Eggman will hurt people again. His character flaw being that he lives in the moment and is shortsighted doesn't see that looking at Mr. Tinker so he acts on what he sees. And acting on his sense of Justice does not make him a career hero at all.

It literally does its literally the point of the entire arc. Sonic thought that eggman , who is tinker, who is eggman, would't hurt anyone again and he should be left to build toys for kids. And thus zombies. You as an audience member deciding if he made the right call or not is the point of the narrative from the author himself.

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As you said, Shadow is a career hero, but Sonic is someone who acts on his own sense of Justice and would never allow someone who is fearful for their wellbeing and has done nothing wrong to be attacked. That goes against his values and does not require being a career hero. If you saw someone being bullied and stepped in would that make you a career hero? No, it just means you acted on your own sense of Justice which is exactly what Sonic did here.

That's a dictator my dude. Like memory loss or not, that's a dictator and that and in writing this story brings a very real continuity to his actions. And when you start arguing " We should let the dictator live" especially with justifications like " he helps sometimes' that's career hero descions. You know why? Because those are choices you make when you think you are prepared to live with the consequences, which might be continued heroism over a long term. You know like a career.

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. What you are advocating for is for the world to actually learn who he is as a person and the decisions that he makes and to punish him for it.

Yeah

Would be kinda tight if this was all over some of the other folks around the world found out why this was happening and started to not like sonic. That would be dope. Actually, that would be genuinely interesting story telling. I 100% want to happen.

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The problem is, that actually won't happen because Sonic typically doesn't engage with people. For as outgoing as he is, he is very much an introvert who stays outside and away from everyone, putting on a show when he is present. And the funny thing about the show he puts on is it's one that inspires confidence and the desire to step up and give it your all

He doesn't have to engage with people, word spreads. You don't think shadow wouldn't call his ass out the next time shadow gets stopped from taking out eggman and their are bystanders around?

"What does this edgy hedgehog mean by, You let eggman do the zombot virus?"

Word gets out and warped , and I would love for that to happen.

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. When you look at that it's little wonder people in universe and out  don't see the sociopathic world ender you do. If anything, most fan content of Shadow that I've seen calls Sonic out best, he is an idiot if anything who is really just skilled enough and caring enough to fudge his way through and get good enough results. It's honestly why Shadow and Knuckles are ideal foils to Sonic because they have the sense of duty that he lacks and are capable of calling him out on being the idiot that he is.

I actually have seen quite a bit of fan content where shadow calls not just sonic out but multiple characters out about what It means to be a hero, There was one fanfic a long time ago, very well done. I think they may write books now.

I feel like there was the potential to this type of story back with eclipse much better than with the zombot virus

 

[Kuzu]

I think there's an inherent disconnect going on here where both of you are having different interpretations of how Sonic's character is viewed under a lens and how he acts.

Part of me is glad Flynn framed it this way because it allows for good discussion, but oh man are things divided.

Honestly, I'll need some more time to think about how I feel.

[DabigRG]

Sonic is someone who lives in the moment, believes that you should be whatever is true to you as long as it doesn't involve getting in the way of someone else's freedom, and tries not to have regrets.

By that same token though, he does regret when his choices cause others to be hurt and so moves to fix things for their sake.

 

I might address the Zombot stuff in the appropriate thread.

[StaticMania]

26 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

It literally does its literally the point of the entire arc. Sonic thought that eggman , who is tinker, who is eggman, would't hurt anyone again and he should be left to build toys for kids. And thus zombies. You as an audience member deciding if he made the right call or not is the point of the narrative from the author himself.

Eggman could've done literally anything after he was brought back.

The point of teh Zombie Bot arc is that the very thing Eggman decided to do was such a major event to incinerate Sonic's gesture.

The point isn't whether or not he made the right call, the point is is how big the blowback would be. It matters that Eggman decided his return should be grand and epic, because the impact otherwise wouldn't be as...impactful.

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

 

 

But two, I don't care sonic isn't perfect. Its what I want, but I also want him to feel bad sometimes and be criticized for not being perfect. But If I'm appalled by anything is his actions or rather how they read in this context. Sonic

• Both sides a dictator
• Equates shadow's abuse and mental manipulation to the continued choices of said dictator he both sided
• Then throughout the zombot arc, never really stops to consider his actions may have lead to this*

I'm a put an * next to that last one. Because he may think later in the story, can't predict the future , not fair to suggest it wont happen. But as it stands his actions are uncaring at best and cruel at worst. I don't give a shit sonic isn't a goody two shoes, my preference for boom sonic suggest I prefer. But sonic going " Hey guy who's dad manipulated your memories into thinking your best friend said blow up the planet. Who's entire first series of actions were done under false pretenses and if given full information and choice would have just not done anything. You yes you you are the same as this guy who literally decides to be a murderous mecha dictator" . That's gross. I'm appalled by that. In our day an age where authoritarian strongmen are on the rise, that sort of comparison is irresponsible.

Sonic being a bit of a dick is whatever. Sorry this is divergent from our normal point but I wanted to point out , that's my issue. And that could have been prevented if he was criticized and the actions could have been lightened a little in retrospect if he  felt bad about it. It doesn't even have to be a big deal

 

 

This post is too dismissive of the context in which Shadow committed the crimes that he did in SA2. You could argue that he was mainpulated into doing so or mentally ill or whatever, but the same branch could be handed to Eggman just as easily for his repeated transgressions. The good Doctor clearly lacks empathy for others and has a dangerously inflated ego: traits that tie to many of their own mental disorders that could have any variety of causes.

Even if Shadow was manipulated or in the wrong state of mind, you have to just up and acknowledge at Shadow acting on false pretenses only goes so far when we're talking about destroying the earth. He would be just as responsible for his actions as Eggman is and would still be considered a potential danger after the fact. If Eggman is a dictator, Shadow is genocidal. Which is humanity more likely to recover from?

To put it another way, Shadow would have put himself down during SA2 or even afterward under his own newfound philosophy IE putting the safety of the world over the life of one potentially dangerous being. I'd imagine he's made his peace with that already, but it's food for thought. 

Shadow isn't wrong to want to split Eggman's dome, but Sonic's perspective isn't completely without merit considering it's the reason Shadow is still alive to begin with. When it became apparent that Eggman was still evil it's not like Sonic took to him with kids gloves either: He tried to infect him and swing it as a life-or-death scenario for the Doctor as well to get him to cooperate. 

He just doesn't believe in wasting life, which is a perspective he's operated on over and over and over again. Maybe not the most enlightened perspective if you seek permanent solutions, but it's one that's true to his character and bred positive results in the past(...Shadow.) Eggman's intelligence would 100% be worth preserving on the off chance that he went good, so I don't see the point in trying to hammer it in more than they already have that Sonic screwed up. Given the information he had available, it's very much arguable that he didn't screw up or at the very least was 'operating under false pretenses' lmao.

[Diogenes]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Then throughout the zombot arc, never really stops to consider his actions may have lead to this*

He literally does exactly that in issue 19, and again in issue 23. Exact words from the later: "I've screwed up--a lot".

[DabigRG]

29 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

He literally does exactly that in issue 19, and again in issue 23. Exact words from the later: "I've screwed up--a lot".

I was trying to recall without digging up the issues themselves, so thanks for the sources as well.

[Kuzu]

I feel like Shadowlax wants a complete admonishment of Sonic's actions from both the narrative and his friends, if not an outright condemnation.

I don't know if it's for the sake of vindicating Shadow's stance, but a complete condemnation of Sonic's actions as described would just ignore the context surrounding the situation.

No, you can't just say "Sonic did X, which led to Eggman doing Y, so therefore if Shadow had stopped Eggman, Y wouldn't have happened" it is reductive reasoning and completely ignores the factors that are completely outside the character's scope of control.

If you're going to condemn Sonic for something out of his control, then giving Shadow a pass for his actions because his mental faculties were impaired is almost hypocritical and not giving Sonic the same level of courtesy. If not, then your argument simply is not in good faith.

[E-122-Psi]

I don't really want Sonic condemned when he screws up (if you can even consider this a screw up), but I want acknowledgement. Him not angsting over the past is different to him knowing his choices and actions have effect on the world around him, that he is a character depthful enough to have an agency besides 'saving the day'.

As said, this debate between Sonic and Shadow over sparing Eggman looked like it was SUPPOSED to have a carry over, that it would be brought back up after Eggman living had consequences. This is different from just telling Sonic he sucks because he made a bad decision, it's STILL not necessarily a bad decision he made, but the depth from the first case was making Shadow question his own cold but precautious approach, so why is there not a follow on to this supposed philosophical plot point with Sonic questioning his own compassionate but risk taking one? If we can add fallibility and doubt to Shadow then why not Sonic in the same debate?

I truthfully feel like a lot of stories hit a blank when they try to do a conflict where there isn't an obvious 'right' and 'wrong' side, when really such conflicts could be that what develop Sonic, black and white/good and evil is his comfort zone, while a more grey and dubious scenario would be more difficult for him to just 'fix'.

[Wraith]

I'm not sure how much more accountability you want while the arc still isn't finished. The world has gone to shit, multiple characters have blamed Sonic for it along with Sonic himself. 

The majority of the time the characters are focused on finding a solution, but that's what they should be doing in a such an urgent situation. 

[E-122-Psi]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm not sure how much more accountability you want while the arc still isn't finished. The world has gone to shit, multiple characters have blamed Sonic for it along with Sonic himself. 

The majority of the time the characters are focused on finding a solution, but that's what they should be doing in a such an urgent situation. 

I'm a bit unresearched on some issues of the story, so maybe I shouldn't critique so hard without having seen the full arc.

Admittedly my scepticism comes from the general pattern in writing between Archie and IDW, which share creative members. Archie just way too often wanted to vent this level of depth only to then laze out of developing the emotional baggage.

[Wraith]

Just now, E-122-Psi said:

I'm a bit unresearched on some issues of the story, so maybe I shouldn't critique so hard without having seen the full arc.

Admittedly my scepticism comes from the general pattern in writing between Archie and IDW, which share creative members.

What do you mean you're unresearched? Are you reading the arc?

[E-122-Psi]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

What do you mean you're unresearched? Are you reading the arc?

I've read some issues of it (unlike Archie I've managed to buy some from import shops here in the UK) but not ALL of it, so yeah, maybe I'm being presumptuous here since I'm late on the most recent points and am basing them on secondary source here.

Archie I generally read online, so do know a good deal of that, at least the late parts of the pre-reboot.

[Kuzu]

What exactly can you even do to Sonic that hasn't already been done? He got infected, and is basically pushing himself ragged to solve the problem.

If Sonic indirectly caused this problem, but he manages to clean it up, where's the issue?

The problem was acknowledged and Sonic solved it. Now if the issue is in the longterm issues of Sonic's actions, then that's another story.

But Sonic already takes full responsibility for what happened and will make it his business for any subsequent business with Eggman.

[E-122-Psi]

I guess the key to debate here is that the arc has opened the floodgates by asking the very question that adds dubiousness to the status quo of the franchise; 'Would it do more good for the world to get rid of Eggman permanently?' I don't even remember SatAm or Archie asking this once in spite of all the atrocities he committed, the first Robotnik was destroyed by pure chance.

At this point, after establishing a rather key moral dilemma onto Sonic and Shadow, the story now has to develop on that in a way that the status quo can continue throughout the series ongoing and still feel like how it is supposed to run and it is the 'natural balance' (especially abiding by the idea that the comics make Eggman noticeably more threatening). Pretty much everything Eggman does from this point weighs on this decision they made so early in the series. Sure Sonic can amend this situation, but what about the next time? And the next time?

Again serious deep storylines can rely on suspension of disbelief a lot less. Once you open that floodgate it is hard to just close it again and revert back to light hearted, especially if the franchise has some sort of continuity.

[Kuzu]

The best case scenario I can see is that Shadow tries to off Eggman again, but relents out of respect for Sonic and Sonic opts to take full responsibility for anything Eggman does in the future.

And should Sonic not be able to handle it, Sonic will trust Shadow to get the job done in his place.

 

[Shadowlax]

5 hours ago, Wraith said:

This post is too dismissive of the context in which Shadow committed the crimes that he did in SA2. You could argue that he was mainpulated into doing so or mentally ill or whatever, but the same branch could be handed to Eggman just as easily for his repeated transgressions. The good Doctor clearly lacks empathy for others and has a dangerously inflated ego: traits that tie to many of their own mental disorders that could have any variety of causes.

Not at all. Shadow was literally born on a tube and knew all of like 2 people. One of those people went int his brain, and manipulated his memories to suggest the other person he knew said to blow up the planet. A thing he has no context for , he just knew it as the thing that threw the people who killed his friend at him. Upon getting context,you know what he does?

He doesn't fucking do that.

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Even if Shadow was manipulated or in the wrong state of mind, you have to just up and acknowledge at Shadow acting on false pretenses only goes so far when we're talking about destroying the earth. He would be just as responsible for his actions as Eggman is and would still be considered a potential danger after the fact. If Eggman is a dictator, Shadow is genocidal. Which is humanity more likely to recover from?

And that's why this statement doesn't make sense. Did shadow try to blow up the earth, yes . But he was like a canonically a week old, thrown in a tube released and one of his dad's went " Gonna make it so he wants to blow up the planet" . And upon learning this a character who canonically only been conscious for a week decides to stop

And that's my point. You know who's just been around, for presumably years, decades even. Dr. Eggman. Shadow is a week old science experiment who went like realizes he was wrong , with limited context of what things are (And when I say thing , i mean things as a concept. Dude is a week and some change old)  goes " oh damn  , my bad let me unfuck this " . Eggman is a grown ass presumably middle aged ass man who for years has gone "damn i could help people, but fascism tho" and instituting that fascism summons old gods, causes mass destruction mayhem and murder, pissed on the moon and let the piss droplets fall to the earth, and enslaves the planet(S) native organisms. 

To make a comparison. This is like trying to compare Hulks Son Skaar to the red skull. One is a kid who came down to earth who did some bad shit, but he was born in litteral lava and had no context besides " get revenge for the people who killed my mom " . Eventually his dad gets him to change, he did bad shit like shadow nothing is taking away from that. But there's a greater context that allows you the audience to come to terms with his redemption. And comparing to the red skull, who is just super hitler. And just chooses to be super hitler.

Those things are not the same. That comparison is baffling to me , and in the context of sonic I find it to be somewhat cruel. Its like if shadow started making arguments to knuckles about him needing to keep the M.E someplace else by actively reminding him of the damage his ancestors have done and comparing them to... I dunno the black arms. It would be fucked up and I would shit on shadow for doing that as well. The argument should have kept to amnesia and the potential good to come out of that.

 

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To put it another way, Shadow would have put himself down during SA2 or even afterward under his own newfound philosophy IE putting the safety of the world over the life of one potentially dangerous being. I'd imagine he's made his peace with that already, but it's food for thought. 

Totally. Its one of the reasons I think that sonic argument was handled poorly. Shadow doesn't really press sonic because it seems like the author/ powers at be, or both didn't want to actually have sonic go through that sort of justification of having to argue shadow. But I think shadow when written well in that scenario goes " Well if you think i'm a danger then kill me " . Much to sonic's suprise and concern that shadow's altruism is so great it extends to himself. And then sonic says " well you are here now and look at you " and then shadow has to conciser and that's a much better argument

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Shadow isn't wrong to want to split Eggman's dome, but Sonic's perspective isn't completely without merit considering it's the reason Shadow is still alive to begin with. When it became apparent that Eggman was still evil it's not like Sonic took to him with kids gloves either: He tried to infect him and swing it as a life-or-death scenario for the Doctor as well to get him to cooperate. 

I wish they had done more with that

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He just doesn't believe in wasting life, which is a perspective he's operated on over and over and over again. Maybe not the most enlightened perspective if you seek permanent solutions, but it's one that's true to his character and bred positive results in the past(...Shadow.)

 

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Eggman's intelligence would 100% be worth preserving on the off chance that he went good, so I don't see the point in trying to hammer it in more than they already have that Sonic screwed up. Given the information he had available, it's very much arguable that he didn't screw up or at the very least was 'operating under false pretenses' lmao.

I agree with the bolded. ( Though there is a very real argument that if you need to rely on the murderous dictator even he makes a face turn to fix your problems you gotta whole other lot other problems. ). My problem is how he gets there, if that makes sense. This whole "Arc" has been a series of situations that are pretty serious but sonic not being emotionally equipped to actually handle them and the author litterally putting kid gloves on him. And it just seems unfair and cruel.  The most he gets is a virus that the audience knows isn't gonna do anything, while other characters who can actually be susceptible to plot, fucking die effectively.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

" Well if you think i'm a danger then kill me "

Why would Shadow ask this after what Sonic said?

Would that then imply he got the idea that Sonic still see's him as a danger?

[Almar]

Mr. Tinker wasn't the problem.

Letting Metal Sonic (a dangerous machine who's loyal to Eggman) go is the problem. I don't even know where Flynn got the impression Sonic acting in-character would do that. What with him sealing Erazor away forever, blowing up Eggman in Sonic CD's ending, agreeing to kill Arthur and attacking Merlina when she made no moves to harm him, etc. Even something like healing Chaos' heart had plenty of practicality to it (he can't be killed and sealing him away won't fix the problem).

[DabigRG]

32 minutes ago, Almar said:

Mr. Tinker wasn't the problem.

Letting Metal Sonic (a dangerous machine who's loyal to Eggman) go is the problem. I don't even know where Flynn got the impression Sonic acting in-character would do that. What with him sealing Erazor away forever, blowing up Eggman in Sonic CD's ending, agreeing to kill Arthur and attacking Merlina when she made no moves to harm him, etc. Even something like healing Chaos' heart had plenty of practicality to it (he can't be killed and sealing him away won't fix the problem).

The idea is that Metal never actually had a choice before, so now he has freedom to with Eggman gone and his armaments removed.

Besides, that's another example of the matter being complicated: Starline was making progress, just slow and without what would've been the final snapback. Metal showing up unexpectedly jolted something that made Eggman click back.

[Shadowlax]

3 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Why would Shadow ask this after what Sonic said?

Would that then imply he got the idea that Sonic still see's him as a danger?

Sonic says and i'm paraphrasing essentially, " Well like didn't you also did a bad thing, think about that" shadow should have been like "Well if you think i'm a danger, come and kill me" not as a suggestion sonic wants to do that but more so a commitment to his cause. Shadow's altruism may actual include himself, in this line would not only shadow the difference between the characters. But also show that shadow isn't hypocritical and would give sonic pause to actually think about his stance. 

Shadow is a a determined individual who under normal writing circumstances is more than willing to give his own happiness, saftey and even life if it means that other people can live better. Shadow framing it like that flips sonic's statement on his head going from one of possible redemption to one of determined pragmatism. And not only gives sonic something to think about, but creates a genuine flaw in shadow's argument making the story better.

Another one of my issues with that entire scenario , while shadow's argument throughout that book and the subsequent arc doesn't get represented well, it doesn't get represented poorly either. There's a lot more holes that you can poke in shadow's idealogy that don't get poked because...well sega but also because the story doesn't seem inclined to. Seems like a waste.

Here's another example, village full of people, kids. Shadow shows up they vanish ( still wonder if that was some sort of sega mandate someone should ask ian). But that's a wasted opportunity, you want to poke holes in shadow's argument those kids are free real estate. Most people don't know who shadow is, his heroic adventures just due to he solves problems tend to go unseen. This is ontop of most of his more notable big adventures took place in human land. And most of the citizens of this would see him as one of the group who helped do facism. So to have this guy who you saw maybe murder dad, murder this nice old man in cold blood you have no context for infront of you, someone you like because of his perceived sense of justice would probably be something you wouldn't like and would try to stop. It would give him pause he would have to think about him becoming the monster that caused him to be him. That his actions have effects.

Much like with sonic's " No Rargets" (its a reference spelling)  idealogy , shadow has one that is potentially toxic as well " If the world turns against me i'll fight with all I have. Which like no regrets sounds cool and determined untill you start poking it. And this situation had ample opportunity to actually poke at that.

Just kinda wasted man.