Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

3 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Again though, why AVOID the potential if your plot does everything to set it up anyway. Why have a character whose dynamic involves being an opposite to the main character, have them do something 'not so different' and then NOT use that to develop a sign of mutuality between them in-universe, especially since for the longest time you wanted them to be a freaking believable item? Why go out of your way NOT to do this thing just on the grounds that's not the tone we originally aimed for, even when the story could feel more fully realised and fluid?

You're honestly asking the wrong person dude. It is what it is at this point.

Like I understand your frustration, there are times when I wish the series would focus more on its characterization too, but it doesn't always do that. It's really just something you learn to accept because its simply not the focus of most of these story arcs.

Like Wraith said, you're mostly just building yourself up for disappointment for something the writers simply aren't interested in doing.

[E-122-Psi]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You're honestly asking the wrong person dude. It is what it is at this point.

Like I understand your frustration, there are times when I wish the series would focus more on its characterization too, but it doesn't always do that. It's really just something you learn to accept because its simply not the focus of most of these story arcs.

Like Wraith said, you're mostly just building yourself up for disappointment for something the writers simply aren't interested in doing.

I guess I'm harder on the comics since, again they have this very pretentious uphold in terms of writing the cast and story. The games are bland but besides that SA2/Next Gen era, they lacked the same pomposity, that 'we're writing an epic, this is what every Sonic story WISHES it were' feel that oozes through. I tend to get especially high strung about Ian debates because he is repeatedly treated as a 'fixer' a thing who makes nearly everything in the franchise better through his writing. I do think he has good writing qualities, and I'm not gonna slam him as a person, he seems a nice guy (he rated one of my hacks nicely on Youtube so I actually kinda feel like a heel really) but I do think makes a lot of the same mistakes that previous writers did really, just now with an insufferable feel of 'it's fixed now' about it.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I guess I'm harder on the comics since, again they have this very pretentious uphold in terms of writing the cast and story. The games are bland but besides that SA2/Next Gen era, they lacked the same pomposity, that 'we're writing an epic, this is what every Sonic story WISHES it were' feel that oozes through. I tend to get especially high strung about Ian debates because he is repeatedly treated as a 'fixer' a thing who makes nearly everything in the franchise better through his writing. I do think he has good writing qualities, and I'm not gonna slam him as a person, he seems a nice guy (he rated one of my hacks nicely on Youtube so I actually kinda feel like a heel really) but I do think makes a lot of the same mistakes that previous writers did really, just now with an insufferable feel of 'it's fixed now' about it.

It sounds more like your preferences are at odds with what the majority of the fanbase prefers.

Most fans really just want to see their favorite characters doing cool shit and not much else. This is still a series aimed at kids, and it certainly does not have the same level of nuance as say, Steven Universe.

And while I can see why that can be disappointing if you're more interested in understanding who these characters are and what makes them tick, I don't think NOT doing that makes the series lesser.

[DabigRG]

Look at it this way: Sally is a basebreaker. This means there are people who really like her character, people who generally take issue with where she often falls in the story, and sometimes a third or fourth group who don't feel strongly either way for good or ill. Point is it's a solid character with a variety of responses due in part to the some problems.

If her bad habits that people dislike her for gets called out and perhaps makes a good story involving them in the process, well now some of those people feel better and may even recognize her as a stronger character for actually dealing with it while setting things right. This is sorta what happened with Shadow in 06, where he went from mocked for being emo to being one of the best parts of the game for all but those who wanted more from the game in general and those who refuse to let go of there being a problem in the first place.

[Kuzu]

People still mock Shadow for being an edgelord to this very day, regardless of how his character is utilized. Once a person has a public perception about certain characters, it's kind of hard to fight against it.

Regardless of how Sally has been used, people are still likely going to hate her on principle as we have seen here. Unless the plot begins calling out the traits that you personally feel make her a bad character.

So if you're someone who feels Sally is a pretentious and self righteous bitch, then it kind of goes without saying that stories that actively exploit those flaws and take her down a peg are more cathartic to see.

Tl;dr: You can't change how people feel most of the time, and some people just like watching characters they hate suffer consequences.

[E-122-Psi]

To clarify I don't want Sally to be this super egomaniacal jerk that gets her comeuppance every story, I just want to take what they already keep doing with her and merge it into a proper character driven scenario.

Sally is a well meaning and genuinely intelligent character, but it feels like she still has key vices and hubris, and even with them more nuanced and controlled than say, Sonic's naked narcissism, they still need to be limelighted and humanised. This isn't just about 'Sally's a jerk, I want her to suffer'. It's more 'Sally is flawed, I want her to be rounded and fallible in her flaws'.

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

People still mock Shadow for being an edgelord to this very day, regardless of how his character is utilized. Once a person has a public perception about certain characters, it's kind of hard to fight against it.

Regardless of how Sally has been used, people are still likely going to hate her on principle as we have seen here. Unless the plot begins calling out the traits that you personally feel make her a bad character.

So if you're someone who feels Sally is a pretentious and self righteous bitch, then it kind of goes without saying that stories that actively exploit those flaws and take her down a peg are more cathartic to see.

Tl;dr: You can't change how people feel most of the time, and some people just like watching characters they hate suffer consequences.

So? It's still being addressed and the story is hopefully better for it. Some people won't be happy no matter what and to be frank, what does that matter? Those aren't the people you need to appeal to directly and you still have everyone else, if people are even the focus of why you did it in the first place.

PS. I only included that cause I figured you would.

[Kuzu]

Because it's kind of important for people to like, or at least want to root for, one of your main characters who are supposed to be the central focus of the story.

You're right, people are going to feel how they want to feel regardless, but the writers should at least tone down the opposition at least.

20 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

To clarify I don't want Sally to be this super egomaniacal jerk that gets her comeuppance every story, I just want to take what they already keep doing with her and merge it into a proper character driven scenario.

Sally is a well meaning and genuinely intelligent character, but it feels like she still has key vices and hubris, and even with them more nuanced and controlled than say, Sonic's naked narcissism, they still need to be limelighted and humanised. This isn't just about 'Sally's a jerk, I want her to suffer'. It's more 'Sally is flawed, I want her to be rounded and fallible in her flaws'.

Can you give me an example of a character in this series that embodies what exactly you're referring to so I can understand it better?

[E-122-Psi]

Well like I said, Sonic himself is an example. Sonic is a 'loveable rogue' in my books, he's heroic, but he's also cocksure, mischievous and impulsive. Usually in a charming way, but still there's a token amount of time in almost every interpretation where his bad habits go too far and get him into trouble, him realising that there is a line. I think these moments give him balance and humanise him and allow that loveable rogue side of him to still be loveable. Of course this doesn't have to happen EVERY SINGLE TIME Sonic is a little overconfident but it's done enough times his flaws are put on some sort of leech.

Earlier games admittedly don't play on this much (Unleashed is pretty much started by his overconfidence which isn't acknowledged) but Lost Worlds I commend for TRYING to make a study out of this and show a more vulnerable side to him.

[Shadowlax]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

Because it's kind of important for people to like, or at least want to root for, one of your main characters who are supposed to be the central focus of the story.

You're right, people are going to feel how they want to feel regardless, but the writers should at least tone down the opposition at least.

Character based criticism is important, yes.

But the way you phrased it sounds like weird ass bias misogyny, and not say criticism.

Also depending on how the character works and what the opposition is, there's a question of whether it matters to do that. I don't like Sally, I really dont. Like she to me represents so much wrong with the Archie lore it isn't even funny. I think her and her entire family should have been thrown in the fuck off dimension with the echidna's.

So I have no real bias towards this character. But sally didn't really need to be taken down a peg, well kinda. She needed more depth and criticism.  And possibly taken down a peg in regards to privilege. She is the sonic character equivalent of a rich character in a sea of parentless sons of soldiers and refugees. So a bit of that yeah, but I'm not inclined to believe that everyone who feels like a charactrr should be shat on should be indulged.

If they bring her back and she works for a possible growing girl audience, I think appeal to them matters more than satiating my 20 something ass. I would just ve perpetuating the cycle that happened to me with the adventure era stuff

And to be honest, I think Sally and the ff's are brought back. I think the disdain they will see will be potential intrusiveness, and people not liking their designs more do than old comic beef

 

[DabigRG]

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Because it's kind of important for people to like, or at least want to root for, one of your main characters who are supposed to be the central focus of the story.

You're right, people are going to feel how they want to feel regardless, but the writers should at least tone down the opposition at least.

...Wait, what?

Is that an agreement or...?

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

 

 

[Kuzu]

12 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Character based criticism is important, yes.

But the way you phrased it sounds like weird ass bias misogyny, and not say criticism.

Also depending on how the character works and what the opposition is, there's a question of whether it matters to do that. I don't like Sally, I really dont. Like she to me represents so much wrong with the Archie lore it isn't even funny. I think her and her entire family should have been thrown in the fuck off dimension with the echidna's.

So I have no real bias towards this character. But sally didn't really need to be taken down a peg, well kinda. She needed more depth and criticism.  And possibly taken down a peg in regards to privilege. She is the sonic character equivalent of a rich character in a sea of parentless sons of soldiers and refugees. So a bit of that yeah, but I'm not inclined to believe that everyone who feels like a charactrr should be shat on should be indulged.

If they bring her back and she works for a possible growing girl audience, I think appeal to them matters more than satiating my 20 something ass. I would just ve perpetuating the cycle that happened to me with the adventure era stuff

And to be honest, I think Sally and the ff's are brought back. I think the disdain they will see will be potential intrusiveness, and people not liking their designs more do than old comic beef

 

I'm extremely ambivalent towards Sally for the most part. I do not have the same nostalgic love for her that most of her fans do.

I feel her contention mainly comes from said fans who are nostalgic for her and younger fans who didn't watch SATAM and don't understand the amount of love she gets despite not being a game native character.

So you kind of need to reconcile the character for a newer Audience while still keeping the things people liked about her.

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

...Wait, what?

Is that an agreement or...?

 

It's an agreement, yes.

19 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

Well like I said, Sonic himself is an example. Sonic is a 'loveable rogue' in my books, he's heroic, but he's also cocksure, mischievous and impulsive. Usually in a charming way, but still there's a token amount of time in almost every interpretation where his bad habits go too far and get him into trouble, him realising that there is a line. I think these moments give him balance and humanise him and allow that loveable rogue side of him to still be loveable. Of course this doesn't have to happen EVERY SINGLE TIME Sonic is a little overconfident but it's done enough times his flaws are put on some sort of leech.

Earlier games admittedly don't play on this much (Unleashed is pretty much started by his overconfidence which isn't acknowledged) but Lost Worlds I commend for TRYING to make a study out of this and show a more vulnerable side to him.

So this obviously varies, but Sonic's flaws are RARELY exploited to flesh him out as a character.

In fact, we had a whole debate about this not too long ago and how if Sonic's static nature as a character is a good thing or not.

I'm not saying no games do this, but it's more of the same vein of how you think writers underutilized Sally; Sonic's "flaws" tend be glossed over for the sake of the story.

And I say this as someone who likes Sonic.

[E-122-Psi]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So this obviously varies, but Sonic's flaws are RARELY exploited to flesh him out as a character.

In fact, we had a whole debate about this not too long ago and how if Sonic's static nature as a character is a good thing or not.

I'm not saying no games do this, but it's more of the same vein of how you think writers underutilized Sally; Sonic's "flaws" tend be glossed over for the sake of the story.

And I say this as someone who likes Sonic.

I guess it's more that the games less often try to pretend that the personality they have given Sonic DOESN'T EVEN EXIST like it does with Sally, leaving it feeling less undefined and vague as her's. Only X debatably has the same issue of wanting a more idealised take than they offer, and even then they seem to be aware Sonic's a bit of a cocky asshole, he just doesn't let his guard down enough that he suffers repercussions for it.

Also I put emphasis on most works, that includes stuff besides the games. Boom in particular fiddles with Sonic's flaws a lot more.

[Kuzu]

Boom is definitely the series that plays more with his personality than others. In the games, most of the time Sonic is the vehicle for someone else's story or just happens to be one of many stories. Games that tend to focus on him mainly tend to lean into the idealized version.

Sonic's personality is just more entertaining than Sally "stick in the mud" Acorn, so it's easier to give with Sonic. At least to me.

 

[E-122-Psi]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Boom is definitely the series that plays more with his personality than others. In the games, most of the time Sonic is the vehicle for someone else's story or just happens to be one of many stories. Games that tend to focus on him mainly tend to lean into the idealized version.

Sonic's personality is just more entertaining than Sally "stick in the mud" Acorn, so it's easier to give with Sonic. At least to me.

 

I think it depends. Generally a stick in the mud is more entertaining if they down to earth approach is undermined and if the wackier guys don't follow them. This was somewhat true early on, but after a while they liked keeping Sally in a positive light. Her dignity was left unscaved, which isn't as fun.

Again Twilight Sparkle is a good example of a stick in the mud being a main character and still being thoroughly entertaining. She is the straight man a lot of times, but there's still a lot to bounce off of her.

[Kuzu]

31 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think it depends. Generally a stick in the mud is more entertaining if they down to earth approach is undermined and if the wackier guys don't follow them. This was somewhat true early on, but after a while they liked keeping Sally in a positive light. Her dignity was left unscaved, which isn't as fun.

Again Twilight Sparkle is a good example of a stick in the mud being a main character and still being thoroughly entertaining. She is the straight man a lot of times, but there's still a lot to bounce off of her.

I mean, it depends. Nobody likes seeing their favorite characters in a negative light, at least in a way that doesn't contribute to their character.

For the record, I felt they did tone down Sally's "stick in the mud" attitude post reboot so

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I mean, it depends. Nobody likes seeing their favorite characters in a negative light, at least in a way that doesn't contribute to their character.

For the record, I felt they did tone down Sally's "stick in the mud" attitude post reboot so

I don't think they had to tone down Sally's stick in the mud attitude, they just had to make it more entertaining.

Every character has a key quirk or flaw that makes them amusing and often when writers try to downplay it or take it away altogether it lends to the audience feeling they are blander. Amy is a key example. People were sick of flanderized Amy, but at the same time they didn't ask for her bratty nature to be rid of altogether, just better humanized and moderated by her redeeming qualities. There is such thing as a middle ground.

I feel this is kind of what happened to Sally. Sally's curmudgeonly bossy attitude was divisive with many fans but that was down to execution, with several infamously badly handled outbursts and not enough moments of humility to offset it. It was not properly developed and kept in check. At the same time, that was kind of her main shtick, to be a temperamental by the book foil to Sonic. Trying to abolish it as her quirk just kind of made her unfocused and boring, with some fans still not seeing her as worth her screentime.

I mean Boom got away with making Knuckles a blithering idiot, just it worked because the writing was designed to make him an endearing and funny idiot.

[Wraith]

it's been 12 hours, stop arguing about sally please i'm sorry i wont bring it up again

[Kuzu]

25 minutes ago, Wraith said:

it's been 12 hours, stop arguing about sally please i'm sorry i wont bring it up again

You thought Shadow was contentious? Sally has more shit than he'll ever get. 

[Shadowlax]

The FF's in general will always be more divisive because they have the... " bonus " of being divisive in the community. There are people who don't like shadow, or silver or rouge or big or whatever but they are largely things that have been generally accepted and in some cases extremely popular a lot of that divisiveness comes outside of the community and even these characters are popular there as well , at least some of em.

There are a lot of sonic fans that do not like the FF's and archie in general, which would make their reintroduction complicated to say the least. Even more so now when the game characters are just starting to get reintroduced and core game fans might want them to focus on that. And younger fans may want the IDW characters. That last bit is also why I think the FF's wont come back or at least be introduced in game form. Sega was really hands on with the creation of this book, if they are looking for characters and concepts to scoop, it will be from here. I'm sure that VA really wants to play sally and there are some folks internally at sega who may like the idea. But I think the time to put them in was...before sonic adventure 1. There's an entire legacy of material more embarrassing than anything that exists in game that resulted in archie book characters not being able to sell a book with them solely on the cover which very much isn't the case for IDW's characters, at least for tangle and whisper anyway.

I feel for archie sonic fans and fans of the FF in particular, I don't like most of them, but I understand y'all see potential in a concept its just that the time for that concept to be executed has long since passed. Sega dropped the ball or at least went in another direction and a sega not quite caring enough to get rid of them let y'all hope for more than that was ever going to happen.

I dunno

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Unpopular opinion: Two worlds isn't that bad. And i'm totally fine with a sonic adventure with animal people NPC's and shit. I say this as a guy who's favorite character makes much much less sense under two worlds .

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

You thought Shadow was contentious? Sally has more shit than he'll ever get. 

And a lot of it just as petty.

I still remember years back  before the forum wipe when some anti-Sally fans pulled a claim out of their ass that “50% of fans wanted Sally dead in Endgame” and kept repeating it like a broken record, and Flyboy Fox asked several times for evidence of that statistic they never provided one.

10 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

There's an entire legacy of material more embarrassing than anything that exists in game that resulted in archie book characters not being able to sell a book with them solely on the cover which very much isn't the case for IDW's characters, at least for tangle and whisper anyway.

I feel for archie sonic fans and fans of the FF in particular, I don't like most of them, but I understand y'all see potential in a concept its just that the time for that concept to be executed has long since passed

An entire legacy that was completely retconned to the point of irrelevance the moment a new writer came in that only those with a petty grudge would still hold against them as opposed to the writer responsible for making the material that everyone else actually holds accountable, all while new material was made in its place for those that weren’t affected by the lawsuit from said writer.

Quit making this a one-sided matter when you know the full details. And that’s before acknowledging the target audience they were marketed for in the 90s who largely weren’t bothered by that material compared to adults in 2020 criticizing it decades later.

Also, IDW still continues doing the exact same thing with the Freedom Fighter concept under the name “Resistance” —It hasn’t long since passed, it jumped ship to a new publisher but without the characters associated with it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

34 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You thought Shadow was contentious? Sally has more shit than he'll ever get. 

And a lot of it just as petty.

I still remember years back  before the forum wipe when some anti-Sally fans pulled a claim out of their ass that “50% of fans wanted Sally dead in Endgame” and kept repeating it like a broken record, and Flyboy Fox asked several times for evidence of that statistic they never provided one.

[Shadowlax]

14 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

 

An entire legacy that was completely retconned to the point of irrelevance the moment a new writer came in that only those with a petty grudge would still hold against them as opposed to the writer responsible for making the material that everyone else actually holds accountable, all while new material was made in its place for those that weren’t affected by the lawsuit from said writer.

Irrelevance doesn't make the material less embarrassing or the association go away *points to my avatar's game* but unlike with that there's a bunch of other materials with different interpretations and takes for people to enjoy. The ff's are only absorbed in two mediums, a cartoon and the comic. The latter of which responsible for the weird stories and the thing that existed for so long there's isn't a lot of other matetial. Ian flynn coming in magically wasn't going to fix there problems because the characters at least the ff's didn't change much. People didn't like them. The ff's for one reason for another for a lot of people don't think they represent sonic and Ian when he took over trying to save that "lore" didn't help. People werent holding grudges it turns out not as many people liked those characters and especially stories as once thought. Not enough to sell books.

Quote

Quit making this a one-sided matter when you know the full details. And that’s before acknowledging the target audience they were marketed for in the 90s who largely weren’t bothered by that material compared to adults in 2020 criticizing it decades later.

That's bullshit. One I was a child in the 00's when these crappy books were coming out. Like many I just kept buying it hoping it would be good,  because I liked sonic. Only to be disappointed. Those adults criticizing it decades later, like ian flynn and his wife were people who grew up with that shit then and hated it then.

There are certainly others who enjoy the ken, Carl, shit but the idea the criticism spawed from nowhere is ridiculous bullshit

This is some "game grumps made everyone hate sonic bullshit"

Quote

Also, IDW still continues doing the exact same thing with the Freedom Fighter concept under the name “Resistance” —It hasn’t long since passed, it jumped ship to a new publisher but without the characters associated with it.

 

That's not the same.

You know it's not the same, stop being disingenuous.

[Kuzu]

Archie Shadow was pretty good.

 

[Shadowlax]

I prefer post reboot

Prebiotic is imo too touchey feeley. Kinda feels out of character sometimes and attempt to give his character and ending that I myself and I feel many others didn't ask for. But I understand why folks like it

Post reboot is more like his 06 incarnation and imo more accurate and interesting. Hes kind of a shut off dick, he doesn't know how to talk to people, he's quick to tell you about yourself and why you are wrong.  But generally not only a good person,  but one the best and often means well. And that dichotomy to me is fun.

Both are preferable to his current comic incarnation though