Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Kuzu]

It's also just easier for storytelling to have every character readily available to use, rather than having to contrive a reason for everyone to show up.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

It's also just easier for storytelling to have every character readily available to use, rather than having to contrive a reason for everyone to show up.

Pretty much.

Even then, the Restoration itself was really just a neat backup organization that gives Amy something reliable to do/be according to when she's needed. Everyone else is off doing their own preestablished things and when they are needed for an issue in an arc that doesn't really revolve around them? Just say Amy contacted them and had Sonic link up.

Honestly, my critical observation about it is we have yet to get an issue or backup story focused around what Amy and what the Restoration normally does when there isn't an ongoing crisis 

[E-122-Psi]

20 hours ago, DabigRG said:

Pretty much.

Even then, the Restoration itself was really just a neat backup organization that gives Amy something reliable to do/be according to when she's needed. Everyone else is off doing their own preestablished things and when they are needed for an issue in an arc that doesn't really revolve around them? Just say Amy contacted them and had Sonic link up.

Honestly, my critical observation about it is we have yet to get an issue or backup story focused around what Amy and what the Restoration normally does when there isn't an ongoing crisis 

I think this is what exacerbated my problems with the concept, even in Archie, they weren't that great at showing what the Freedom Fighters did when they WEREN'T on duty, or at least conveying it in a way that didn't feel really dull. Oh Sonic and Sally are dating, everyone's chilling at home doing nothing, let's do exposition. YAAYYYYY, EVERYONE LOVES EXPOSITION.

It only furthered the idea that the heroes were only fun as reactors and when left to their own devices they were boring as hell and had nothing interesting to do. They were, dare I say it, COMPLETELY NORMAL.

Maybe this is what makes the difference between that and Boom. In hindsight, Boom pretty much had them as a hero squad as well, just we saw A LOT of them off duty and they were pretty good at making their break time really enjoyable and distinctive. The only time the Freedom Fighter/resistance canon really did that was the early issues and SatAm, and even then it mostly revolved around Antoine's slapstick. Whoopie.

[Kuzu]

Well in the history of storytelling, the villains are generally the instigators. 

[DabigRG]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well in the history of storytelling, the villains are generally the instigators. 

Essentially.

I guess the middleground of what Phi is getting at is its generally nice to have your characters be able to be themselves and do things regardless of allegiance or urgency.

[knuckles20]

Based on the 2 recent threads about Amy Rose, I don’t think she’s bland or lacks a personality at least with the comics. And whatever issues people have with Amy that come from the games, that can be easily be the about most of the characters since 2010.

[Miles Storzillo]

Speaking of Amy, I can't help but notice her love for Sonic was SEREVERLY toned down since Lost World, especially in Boom.  Aside from that scene where she's dying from the planet's energy being drained I can't remember the last time in the modern era where she was clearly shown to have a crush on him.  And even then that was just her telling Sonic how she felt before dying (cliched, sure, but my point still stands).  And even in Boom where she still clearly has a crush on him (that episode where Tails builds a mind reading robot ring a bell?) it's not completely shoved in your face like pre Lost World post Adventure (and as much as I may love the show, Sonic X is probably when she's at her worst ever).

[Kaotic Kanine]

My problem with IDW!Amy, though, is that while she does have a personality compared to her modern game-self, the personality she does have is contrary to the character she was established as 

Way I see Amy, at least how she was from Adventure-Generations (arguably even the Classic games), she is a Genki Girl and embodies "heart". For the "genkiness", Amy's so full of energy that she never tires out, and in fact is able to tire out Sonic with her personality, and bursts with confidence and determination. And for heart, Amy not only thinks with her heart more than her brain but wears her heart on her sleeve; it's a major reason why she's so open about her love for Sonic and doesn't see any reason to hide it, nor feel shame for it (those latter things being present in Boom!Amy is primary reason I dislike that version of the character: she feels shame for her crush on Sonic and actively hides it). Overall, Amy is the "Emotion" of the cast, no less "chaotic" than Sonic himself, and as a leader she's the "Headstrong" and/or "Charismatic" type (clarification here) 

IDW, though, has Amy being highly organized and logical. She leads others not through force of personality and intense determination but with a level-head and plans. And Amy of IDW abandons her intense energy and emotion in favor of being far more grounded and a methodical thinker, to the point of demanding Sonic to rejoin the Resistance because "working from a centralized, organized position is way more effective". In the aftermath of the Battle for Angel Island, IDW!Amy spends her time cataloging resources, and afterward runs herself doing paperwork for the Restoration and expressing hesitation at coming along with Sonic on an adventure. And come the Metal Virus Saga, Amy finds herself getting tired out and losing hope as the saga goes on; Amy, a character most famous for her optimism, to the point of being the only character beside Sonic himself to NOT lose hope when Perfect Dark Gaia was engulfing the planet in everlasting darkness, losing hope... The fact that Amy ended up asking Cream how she stays so sunny and cheerful, and Tangle would go on to demonstrate the exact energy, passion, and optimism Amy used to showcase, only confirmed to me that IDW!Amy is not Amy. If anything, she comes off a lot more like Sally, which I know is such a common accusation that most are getting tired of. But comparisons, especially that of only one other character, don't come from a vacuum. And really, compare IDW!Amy's dialogue to that of her dialogue in the Adventure games, Heroes, Unleashed, Riders (specifically 1 and 2) or even Shadow and Sonic 06. Tell me that IDW!Amy talks like the Amy's of those games...

[Kuzu]

I feel like Amy focusing more on helping people by means of the Restoration is pretty in-line with her character; she's a people person first and is still putting others before herself. That's a key part of Amy's character and I feel IDW does well to keep that. While I get the comparisons to Sally, given that Amy is occupying a similar position, I don't feel like she's an exact copy of Sally either and has enough of her own traits to differentiate her. If you look at IDW Amy as more of an extension of Amy's character rather than a change, then I think it goes a long way of her being her own character. Now granted, if you're the type of person who prefers Amy as she was before, then I don't think this series was going to do anything different; but I appreciate that Ian was willing to take the character in a different direction than what the reader is used to. 

[DabigRG]

2 hours ago, Miles Storzillo said:

Speaking of Amy, I can't help but notice her love for Sonic was SEREVERLY toned down since Lost World, especially in Boom.  Aside from that scene where she's dying from the planet's energy being drained I can't remember the last time in the modern era where she was clearly shown to have a crush on him.  

When she got turned on at the thought of having two at the same time.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

My problem with IDW!Amy, though, is that while she does have a personality compared to her modern game-self, the personality she does have is contrary to the character she was established as 

Way I see Amy, at least how she was from Adventure-Generations (arguably even the Classic games), she is a Genki Girl and embodies "heart". For the "genkiness", Amy's so full of energy that she never tires out, and in fact is able to tire out Sonic with her personality, and bursts with confidence and determination. And for heart, Amy not only thinks with her heart more than her brain but wears her heart on her sleeve; it's a major reason why she's so open about her love for Sonic and doesn't see any reason to hide it, nor feel shame for it (those latter things being present in Boom!Amy is primary reason I dislike that version of the character: she feels shame for her crush on Sonic and actively hides it). Overall, Amy is the "Emotion" of the cast, no less "chaotic" than Sonic himself, and as a leader she's the "Headstrong" and/or "Charismatic" type (clarification here) 

IDW, though, has Amy being highly organized and logical. She leads others not through force of personality and intense determination but with a level-head and plans. And Amy of IDW abandons her intense energy and emotion in favor of being far more grounded and a methodical thinker, to the point of demanding Sonic to rejoin the Resistance because "working from a centralized, organized position is way more effective". In the aftermath of the Battle for Angel Island, IDW!Amy spends her time cataloging resources, and afterward runs herself doing paperwork for the Restoration and expressing hesitation at coming along with Sonic on an adventure. And come the Metal Virus Saga, Amy finds herself getting tired out and losing hope as the saga goes on; Amy, a character most famous for her optimism, to the point of being the only character beside Sonic himself to NOT lose hope when Perfect Dark Gaia was engulfing the planet in everlasting darkness, losing hope... The fact that Amy ended up asking Cream how she stays so sunny and cheerful, and Tangle would go on to demonstrate the exact energy, passion, and optimism Amy used to showcase, only confirmed to me that IDW!Amy is not Amy. If anything, she comes off a lot more like Sally, which I know is such a common accusation that most are getting tired of. But comparisons, especially that of only one other character, don't come from a vacuum. And really, compare IDW!Amy's dialogue to that of her dialogue in the Adventure games, Heroes, Unleashed, Riders (specifically 1 and 2) or even Shadow and Sonic 06. Tell me that IDW!Amy talks like the Amy's of those games...

This is a better argument for that comparison than most have given that I recall.

[Kaotic Kanine]

That is a good point about Amy still being a people's person, and that is indeed a key part of her character 

But for me, Amy's key traits are also her boundless energy, unbridled passion, and undying optimism. And from what I've seen of her IDW self thus far, she doesn't demonstrate much of that, if any at all, for me to see it as an extension of her character. Especially in comparison to most of the other characters, who behave and speak much more like how they always have. Again, when you got Amy asking Cream how she stays sunny and cheerful, in a situation wherein Cream would actually be doubtful at best, and a canon foreigner displaying all of Amy's iconic traits while Amy herself hardly displays them at all, it's hard to see that as the same character 

I'd be willing to accept Amy becoming mature and taking charge of an organization to help people all over. But she's gotta be like herself while doing so. And with the lack of energy, strong emotion, and especially the optimism... What does IDW!Amy have in common with Amy of the games besides appearance, name, and being a people's person? At this point, IDW!Amy behaves more like her "Sonic the Comic" self than her early game self. And unlike most, I do NOT like StC!Amy nor think it an iteration of Amy to take inspiration from (alongside Boom)

[E-122-Psi]

Truth be told the first game I played with the 3D canon and voice work was Heroes, and amusingly one of my first reliefs was that Amy was vibrant like her earlier STC self and not her later 'boring' one. 

I think the thing about Amy however is that she was an 'everygirl' originally, not in personality, but in role. She was the normal one most in touch with the public world. This is why Team Rose fit together I suppose since they were all characters who had simple lives and joined the heroic actions for character motivated reasons, not to be part of the unit. That's where she is meant to be different from Sally in a key way since Sally is the opposite, being royalty and very formal and professional, though succumbing to personal emotions when faced with very pragmatic decisions. Amy doesn't even have that weakness right now. She just does not fit the all business routine, she was always a normal little girl that had to force herself into the mix through her own passion.

This is where I don't buy the 'maturing' excuse, sure I could understand Amy being more cooperative and being trusted with important missions more, but there's a way to develop a character without dismissing all their individuality and motivation as an artefact of how flawed they were originally. This is why I wasn't sold on Antoine's 'maturing' in the comics, since it felt more like just making Antoine another obedient and face-value-competent-but-unimportant bit player. There's LOADS of directions they could have taken Antoine with the premise that he could actually back up his bragging more often, after all so can Sonic and he's hardly a well behaved prop.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Should also keep in mind that in IDW, the world has been fucked by Eggman. Amy took on the role of planning as a necessity of the setting.

Were that not the case, you’d see a lot more of her usual energetic self.

[Kaotic Kanine]

11 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Truth be told the first game I played with the 3D canon and voice work was Heroes, and amusingly one of my first reliefs was that Amy was vibrant like her earlier STC self and not her later 'boring' one. 

Somehow, I think we'll be good friends  

11 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I think the thing about Amy however is that she was an 'everygirl' originally, not in personality, but in role. She was the normal one most in touch with the public world. This is why Team Rose fit together I suppose since they were all characters who had simple lives and joined the heroic actions for character motivated reasons, not to be part of the unit. That's where she is meant to be different from Sally in a key way since Sally is the opposite, being royalty and very formal and professional, though succumbing to personal emotions when faced with very pragmatic decisions. Amy doesn't even have that weakness right now. She just does not fit the all business routine, she was always a normal little girl that had to force herself into the mix through her own passion.

Can't believe I never consciously realized that until you brought it up  But this is definitely my biggest contention with IDW!Amy, in addition to the lack of her hyperactive and bubbly behavior. Amy is supposed to be a girl who lived a mundane life and, out of boredom and wanting to be alongside her beloved Sonic, tries to transition herself into a life of adventure. She's better suited as a recurring character (albeit a main or major one) having adventures of her own on the side and doing small-scale heroics so as to eventually catch up with Sonic in that regard (but of course still not hesitating to tag along with Sonic if she could). If she has to lead a group, which is a solid development for her, it has to be a small, rag-tag group comprised of individuals with similar background and experience to her (such as a certain young rabbit). Amy being in charge of a large-scale organization/army and leading it like a highly organized tactician... Is jarring. 

Granted, the 2000's games never really followed up on that development I outlined, but Amy was still clearly that average girl forcing herself into all sorts of situations out of desire to help and stuff. And the Archie Comics, Pre-Reboot and Post-Reboot, also accomplished that role. 

9 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Should also keep in mind that in IDW, the world has been fucked by Eggman. Amy took on the role of planning as a necessity of the setting.

Were that not the case, you’d see a lot more of her usual energetic self.

I still think Amy can still be essential to the Resistance/Restoration without abandoning her passion, namely by being a front-line fighter and keeping morale high with her spirited charm. Not by being a planner, which was never her forte. Rouge, having been established since the beginning as a government agent and high-class thief, is better suited as a planner (albeit maybe not commanding masses, but still). 

But fair enough about the situations forcing Amy to adapt for the sake of it. I suppose I'll withhold further criticisms until the Metal Virus Saga is well and truly over, and then see how Amy is characterized when she's not forced to lead the Resistance/Restoration. 

[E-122-Psi]

Again this is why I'm not big on nearly all the comics enforcing this 'resistance group' approach where pretty much everyone HAS to band together into a professional unit. It kinda puts everyone on automation and downplays the potential for more character driven adventures and plot pivots.

SatAm and the earlier Archie issues kinda made it work for the most part because this unit was a rag tag group themselves and there felt like a lot of times they were kinda working against their own impulses and inexperience to maintain a professional regiment about it (even Sally had a couple odd  delusions of grandeur about adventuring like with the Freedom Stormer) but as the Freedom Fighter occupation became more global scale and elaborate, things became tighter and mission driven to a fault.

I think this is also why Season Three of Sonic X struggled to maintain personality depths and characters like Amy just succumbed to becoming one-note comic relief, being stuck in a spaceship on a mission plan limited the ability to be a proactive distinct character. Reboot Archie wasn't as bad but it followed a similar premise and thus occasional underplays as well. I mean, I liked the idea of promoting Big and having him part of the main group for odd arcs could be a humorous dynamic, but him a full time squad member felt a bit off with him, he's meant to be the rando minding his own business until he's dragged into an adventure.

I find it a shame that the IDW comics were made JUST as Forces had adapted this dynamic into the games really. I would have loved more stuff like the same team's work on the Sonic X comics. Sure they were just silly episodic plots, but they were fun and made entertaining use of the characters (and if dumbing down Eggman's threat level just led to stuff like El Gran Gordo I'd gladly take it).

[E-122-Psi]

30 minutes ago, Kaotic Kanine said:

Somehow, I think we'll be good friends  

I'm flattered, but be prepared, I'm not always this positive on here.

[DabigRG]

.@E-122-Psi and @Kaotic Kanine. I'll get back to ya'll  in detail elsewhere.Suffice to say, Amy among others would've benefited from some panel time between conflicts.

 

[Kuzu]

I don't understand what is so limiting about using the cast in a resistance type of group, especially when it makes it far easier for them to interact than before. Archie did this by having specific characters as the focus of a particular issue and arc and just shuffled them around, which is probably the most ideal scenario to utilize a cast as large this series without coming off as bloated and unfocused.

I'm not going to say the issues aren't legit, but I don't see it as this big betrayal of any kind. Most of the time the games don't even really have any particular cohesion to how they use their characters, and tend to be slapped together, usually out of convenience for the plot. Having them actually form a group eliminates that problem because you can just handwave it with "They're part of the same group".

[thumbs13]

Yeah, the group thing was never my favorite. Shadow the Hedgehog did it best. Have the characters be spread out, and only appear when the situation calls for it. These guys aren't military, most of them are just regular guys. It was fine for Forces and IDW, but once the virus ends, so should the whole restoration thing. 

 

 

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, thumbs13 said:

...but once the virus ends, so should the whole restoration thing.

Yeah, at that point they won.

No need to keep rebuilding and rescuing people.

Right?

[Diogenes]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Having them actually form a group eliminates that problem because you can just handwave it with "They're part of the same group".

I mean, that kind of is the problem: individual motivations get subsumed into "the group". It may not always be easy to wrangle characters with entirely different and largely personal motivations together into one coherent story, but when the pieces do come together I think it makes for a better story because their presence is actually rooted in their character rather than risking the feeling that they're only there due to alignment with the group and that it may just as well have been someone else.

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, that kind of is the problem: individual motivations get subsumed into "the group". It may not always be easy to wrangle characters with entirely different and largely personal motivations together into one coherent story, but when the pieces do come together I think it makes for a better story because their presence is actually rooted in their character rather than risking the feeling that they're only there due to alignment with the group and that it may just as well have been someone else.

And I agreed with that, but that also means you need to build up each and every character's motivations so that they tie into each other. Like I said, it's just easier on the writers if everyone is just in a singular group and then you can just build off character motivations from there.

It doesn't have to be an either or thing, but if you're writing a serialized story that's meant to be indefinite, you're gonna need to cut some type of corners. The cast is just simply too large to focus on each and every one of their individual motivations without it coming off as bloated. If we had a smaller main cast, I'd agree but that's not the case.

[DabigRG]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I mean, that kind of is the problem: individual motivations get subsumed into "the group". It may not always be easy to wrangle characters with entirely different and largely personal motivations together into one coherent story, but when the pieces do come together I think it makes for a better story because their presence is actually rooted in their character rather than risking the feeling that they're only there due to alignment with the group and that it may just as well have been someone else.

Eh, honestly the group/team is sometimes just a visualized version of saying "I happened to be here." Usually it's justified by previous stories or in this case a collective, but it helps get past exposition.

Which exposition isn't bad, in fact it's necessary to really understand what you're dealing with, but having characters already together saves space to fully flesh what the plot really had in store for them.

The Archie reboot shows both aspects of this: the greater context of the Shattered World meant it was good to have something like the Sky Patrol ready to go so that you can have a collection of characters any given story can pick from, but doesn't have to use all the time. Yeah it's a little bit of a shame that they weren't just doing their own things for a while, but it's was kind of a necessary beast so that you could have things like Team Fighters participate in the Championship or Big be around to comment on the content of Nicole's character in his simple way. It's probably not a coincidence that said ship was said to be damaged to the point of being retired once Dark Gaia was dealt with and the next issues would've just been Sonic going on whatever random shenanigans .

[Kaotic Kanine]

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I'm flattered, but be prepared, I'm not always this positive on here.

I'm aware XD So long you don't diss on Amy, Cream, the Werehog, and the things related to those three, we're good lol 

When it comes to the "resistance group" thing, I guess I'm indifferent to it? I don't think it really works with Sonic's character, since he's firmly established as a nomad who lives and does things by his own will. And let's face it, Eggman does not warrant a resistance group lol Not unless he can maintain a bit of actual territory for the long-term, but Sonic alone is able to stop him from even getting a foothold in things. But I guess there's nothing truly wrong with the concept. Not gonna lie, though, after the Freedom Fighter set-up prevented Cream from getting any meaningful attention and action in Reboot Archie (before any of you groan with annoyance, rest assured I will not be ranting about this compulsively like I did before: only bringing it up because it's relevant to my opinion), and both StC and IDW had/have Amy behaving contrary to her established personality due to her leadership position, I think I'd prefer the main cast to be something along the lines of Team Avatar from A:TLA- just a group of friends travelling the world and helping people along the way to their destination, not some professional army