Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

The thing is time continues?

Yes, I’m well aware time goes on. And do you know what comes with it? Experience.

And I’ve been on this very website and witnessed many events in the community and the games to have enough experience to know that what you’re saying about Rouge disappearing is a lot less likely to happen than you think.

I may not be right all the time (I’ve gone on record saying they’d never make a Sonic 4 before they ended up proving me wrong a few years later), but you’re talking about a character that’s been around for almost 20 years. She may not have had major starring roles, but she’s not going anywhere near the scrap bin any time sooner than the likes of Blaze the Cat. 

They had that chance to do so back when Sonic 06 flopped and they barred most of the cast from appearing in Unleashed—she’s since reappeared in Generations and Forces, and still makes appearances in spin-offs. So this talk of her being on the chopping block is nonsense.

[batson]

Regarding Rouge, it's certainly true that she is a character of a type that isn't exactly common in childrens media today. She is specifically designed to be sexy, with the kind of figure that most men find most desirable. This type of female character was common in childrens media for decades. Think of April from the original Ninja Turtles cartoon, or Hello Nurse from Animaniacs, or Ms Bellum from The Powerpuff Girls. But starting sometime around the early 2010's, these kinds of characters were phased out in conjunction with the increased awareness of the problem of female objectification. Ms Bellum is perhapes most indicative of this change in climate, since she was downright written out of the Powerpuff Girls reboot, with the specifically stated reason being that she sended the wrong kind of messages. As for newly designed characters in western comics, animation and video games aimed at younger audiences, the extreme kind of hourglass figure that Rouge possess is basically non-existant.

Of course some might want to point out that Rouge is a character with a lot of personality, and thus shouldn't be seen as so problematic since she isn't only a sex object. But that was true for Ms Bellum as well. Basically, their type of design is seen as so inherintly problematic nowadays that it overshadows other character traits.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You’d be surprised at how common Rouge’s body type still is even among kids cartoons unless you going down the level of Nick Jr or Teen Titan’s Go.

Even so, they have made efforts to tone down Rouge’s body type even in modern titles, so it’s still not like they’re going to outright write her out completely.

[Blue Blood]

I don't know if they're really made any efforts to tone down Rouge's appearance specifically. In the modern era, they've constantly been giving the series a softer, simpler and less detailed look. The way that all characters were modelled or drawn has changed considerably the days of SA2/Heroes/06/X.

FWIW, Rouge has always been one of my favourite characters. She used to be a great supporting character, having motivations, flaws and strengths of her own. I liked the rapport she had with Shadow and Knuckles. It's not necessarily that that has changed over time, but she's just so tertiary now that there's very little to like or dislike about her other than her design (like pretty much everyone that's not Sonic, Tails or Eggman). And tbh, I don't like the way that she looks in the newer games with flat and simple shapes; her face in particular is just so ugly with slapped-with-a-shovel smile. 

When I rewatched the first 52 episodes of X a few months ago, I was really surprised to see just how much of a major character Rouge was. She very often took centre stage in the storylines. The main protagonists that got involved with the action were Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge (and Chris). Amy, Cream and Tails had their moments, but were largely there as supporting characters for Sonic, whilst Shadow had a very limited number of appearances. Rouge had so much to do with the storylines where the government and military were involved. Such a good use of her character; she contrasted with her team, but they always had the same goals and she would divr straight into the action moments with her stealth, flight and kicking abilities. Such a good use of her character, especially in those episodes where Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge were all representing different sides of the story.

[DabigRG]

6 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

When I rewatched the first 52 episodes of X a few months ago, I was really surprised to see just how much of a major character Rouge was. She very often took centre stage in the storylines. The main protagonists that got involved with the action were Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge (and Chris). Amy, Cream and Tails had their moments, but were largely there as supporting characters for Sonic, whilst Shadow had a very limited number of appearances. Rouge had so much to do with three storylines where the government and military were involved. Such a good use of her character; she contrasted with her team, but they always had the same goals and she would drive straight into the action moments with her stealth, flight and kicking abilities. Such a good use of her character, especially in those episodes where Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge were all representing different sides of the story.

I pretty sure part of that was because, out of all the Sonic cast, Rouge was the most ideal for the human world focus X takes place in. In addition to being a foil for Knuckles, she was literally introduced as a special agent of GUN(a military force of humans that naturally existed within the show as well), had a love of jewels that was defining while also being manageable, gained a human companion in Topaz(whom she had some genuinely fun chemistry with), and her being a wild card meant she could just jump into a story even without GUN involvement.  

It just made sense that if any game character was gonna excel in that show, it was gonna be her.

 

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Hmmm

Yea, it's pretty noticeable too, because it's before the point when she was mostly tied to stories revolving around Shadow. X really let her shine on her own as a character without being subservient to anyone. Unsung hero she was.

This too.

[batson]

3 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

You’d be surprised at how common Rouge’s body type still is even among kids cartoons unless you going down the level of Nick Jr or Teen Titan’s Go.

I don't think that's true. I watch a lot of current cartoons (I don't think they tend to be all that great, but I watch them when nothing better happens to be on, especially when I'm over at a friend who is really into animation). The current trend for female cartoon characters is this; she can have a slender waist, but only if she also has rather small breasts, and similarly, she can have large breasts, but only if she also has a rather large waist. The big no-no in current female cartoon character designs is to have characters with large breasts and a slender waist (in other words an hourglass-figure), as this makes her too sexually appealing to male audiences.

Of course Japan on the other hand keeps going in the opposite direction, with many newer manga and anime having female characters with a miniscule waist and absolutely enormous breasts (I think One Piece is very much a frontrunner in this regard).

[Kuzu]

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

I don't know if they're really made any efforts to tone down Rouge's appearance specifically. In the modern era, they've constantly been giving the series a softer, simpler and less detailed look. The way that all characters were modelled or drawn has changed considerably the days of SA2/Heroes/06/X.

Hmmm

 

 

You're right, her proportions are slightly less exaggerated, but her model is still more or less the same....minus her fangs. Why did they get rid of her fangs, BRING BACK HER FANGS.

 

4 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

FWIW, Rouge has always been one of my favourite characters. She used to be a great supporting character, having motivations, flaws and strengths of her own. I liked the rapport she had with Shadow and Knuckles. It's not necessarily that that has changed over time, but she's just so tertiary now that there's very little to like our dislike about her other than her design. And tbh, I don't like the way that she looks in the newer games with flat and simple shapes  her face in particularly is just so ugly. 

When I rewatched the first 52 episodes of X a few months ago, I was really surprised to see just how much of a major character Rouge was. She very often took centre stage in the storylines. The main protagonists that got involved with the action were Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge (and Chris). Amy, Cream and Tails had their moments, but were largely there as supporting characters for Sonic, whilst Shadow had a very limited number of appearances. Rouge had so much to do with three storylines where the government and military were involved. Such a good use of her character; she contrasted with her team, but they always had the same goals and she would drive straight into the action moments with her stealth, flight and kicking abilities. Such a good use of her character, especially in those episodes where Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge were all representing different sides of the story.

 

Yea, it's pretty noticeable too, because it's before the point when she was mostly tied to stories revolving around Shadow. X really let her shine on her own as a character without being subservient to anyone. Unsung hero she was.

[Silvereyes]

My only issue with Rouge's design is that considering how short all the Sonic characters are, her hourglass figure can look a bit out of proportion. Like at times, it looks like she has the figure of a 5 foot 6 tall women but shrunk down to that of a 4 foot tall woman. Something that has forever bugged me since I think RadicalSoda pointed it out in one of his videos is how she has such a small neck, it looks like her chin is resting on her chest at some points.

Personally, I think all the Sonic characters are due for a redesign. Nothing major, it doesn't have to be for the sake of it, but it does feel like especially with Forces that there hasn't been much care put into the designs. I feel like there needs to be a bit of a stand back, look at a character, what they do, reevaluate it, and then update the design accordingly. I think Rouge could use a redesign the most, maybe update her proportions abit, think the outfit could get a nice new look.

Been years since I watched X but I did like Rouge and that human woman she was a partner with. X really was a different time, back when Sega seemed quite confident in Sonic's friends. That human woman would probably be up there as my top pick for bringing over any X character into the regular continuity.

[Kuzu]

I honestly don't know how you could update these designs without adding unnecessary details; that was exactly what the Boom designs were criticized for, they either changed very little about the overall design outside of clothes  (Tails and Amy) or they just added details that take way from the design (Sonic and especially Knuckles)

 

Eggman's design is the only one that looks somewhat good, but even that kind misses the point of "Eggman".

[Silvereyes]

11 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I honestly don't know how you could update these designs without adding unnecessary details; that was exactly what the Boom designs were criticized for, they either changed very little about the overall design outside of clothes  (Tails and Amy) or they just added details that take way from the design (Sonic and especially Knuckles)

 

Eggman's design is the only one that looks somewhat good, but even that kind misses the point of "Eggman".

Well, when I say, I do mean when it comes to details. I think at this point Modern Sonic's design is set in stone for example, he's always going to have green eyes, the shoe design etc. But there is how tall he is, what shade of blue he is, stuff like that. Not to mention ofcourse that the designs can look different when the new games use newer engine graphics.

I think there needs to be a reevaluation of the characters, their personalities, their roles, and their designs. I'm not advocating doing something radical like Sonic Boom, but I think there needs to be some vision. Going back to Rouge, say for example they decided to make her a GUN agent again, so perhaps they can redesign the outfit to reflect that. Could still keep the colour scheme and the lovehearts, but maybe make it slightly more sleaker, it the outfit goes up to her shoulders and over her chest. That kindof thing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

10 hours ago, batson said:

I don't think that's true. I watch a lot of current cartoons (I don't think they tend to be all that great, but I watch them when nothing better happens to be on, especially when I'm over at a friend who is really into animation). The current trend for female cartoon characters is this; she can have a slender waist, but only if she also has rather small breasts, and similarly, she can have large breasts, but only if she also has a rather large waist. The big no-no in current female cartoon character designs is to have characters with large breasts and a slender waist (in other words an hourglass-figure), as this makes her too sexually appealing to male audiences.

We must be seeing completely different cartoons, because I still see Rouge’s body type in shows like Steven Universe, Casagrandes, and Justice League Action just to name a few.

And neither of those case with having either a large waist or large breasts holds water when male audiences still find those traits sexually appealing given Rule 34–the hourglass figure isn’t the only figure that’s found appealing, and it’s a big fallacy to think the current trend is immune to this.

Even so, Rouge’s proportions have been a lot less exaggerated over time than she originally was, to the point she’s not that outside of today’s cartoons.

[calamityCons]

Do you guys think this topic deserves its own thread? I find this discussion about character design and market competitive edge in sonic fascinating and very engaging, but it isn’t really following this thread’s title anymore lol

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Silvereyes said:

Well, when I say, I do mean when it comes to details. I think at this point Modern Sonic's design is set in stone for example, he's always going to have green eyes, the shoe design etc. But there is how tall he is, what shade of blue he is, stuff like that. Not to mention ofcourse that the designs can look different when the new games use newer engine graphics.

I think there needs to be a reevaluation of the characters, their personalities, their roles, and their designs. I'm not advocating doing something radical like Sonic Boom, but I think there needs to be some vision. Going back to Rouge, say for example they decided to make her a GUN agent again, so perhaps they can redesign the outfit to reflect that. Could still keep the colour scheme and the lovehearts, but maybe make it slightly more sleaker, it the outfit goes up to her shoulders and over her chest. That kindof thing.

Well like you said, those are minor details; the basic design he has now is fine for what it is, because it communicates everything you need to know about the character. What you're referring to is the art style, not the design itself. How the design is represented can certainly change, but not the design itself. 

I do agree that they need to reevaluate how these characters are represented, but their designs already perfectly communicate who they are to the audience and what their roles are. For Rouge, she's a thief and a spy, which are all communicated completely in her design with the catsuit, the only change I'd really make is perhaps just covering his cleavage, but other than that, her design is fine as it is. GUN doesn't need to exist for Rouge to spy on people or steal things. 

[E-122-Psi]

19 hours ago, Kuzu said:

You're right, her proportions are slightly less exaggerated, but her model is still more or less the same....minus her fangs. Why did they get rid of her fangs, BRING BACK HER FANGS.

THANK YOU. I find it a shame they got rid of the one design trait that made her look halfway like her species.

As for X Rouge, the extra spotlight was fun, but I wasn't big on how her and Shadow had this 'dubious morality license' and could switch to unrepentant antagonists or best friends with the heroes at the blink of an eye with no consequences (only Knuckles sometimes called her out, and of course was always the butt monkey for it. Being a complainy pants is a far worse crime than being a villain ). Even for all the complaints towards Archie and Free Riders about how they used them, they at least got treatment that befit when they acted like 'Team Asshole' (I actually liked Treasure Team Tango for keeping their more ambiguous approach but pointing out they couldn't be one AND the other without hangups).

20 hours ago, batson said:

I don't think that's true. I watch a lot of current cartoons (I don't think they tend to be all that great, but I watch them when nothing better happens to be on, especially when I'm over at a friend who is really into animation). The current trend for female cartoon characters is this; she can have a slender waist, but only if she also has rather small breasts, and similarly, she can have large breasts, but only if she also has a rather large waist. The big no-no in current female cartoon character designs is to have characters with large breasts and a slender waist (in other words an hourglass-figure), as this makes her too sexually appealing to male audiences.

Of course Japan on the other hand keeps going in the opposite direction, with many newer manga and anime having female characters with a miniscule waist and absolutely enormous breasts (I think One Piece is very much a frontrunner in this regard).

Crash Bandicoot is a western cartoon franchise and more or less EVERY female that isn't underage has full on Playboy design (to the point they have almost no design variation compared to the male cast, while Rouge at least has non-sexual design quirks like wings and big ears).

And of course let's not forget how the SatAm/Archie females were often designed in the late nineties (and how Lupe was pretty much always designed really).

[batson]

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Crash Bandicoot is a western cartoon franchise and more or less EVERY female that isn't underage has full on Playboy design (to the point they have almost no design variation compared to the male cast, while Rouge at least has non-sexual design quirks like wings and big ears).

And of course let's not forget how the SatAm/Archie females were often designed in the late nineties (and how Lupe was pretty much always designed really).

Those characters stem from the 90's and early 00's though. When I'm talking about current female character design, I'm really talking just the past 6 or 7 years. The change has been very swift. Some characters gets to remain more or less how they looked back in earlier times due to the "granfather clause", but extremely few new female cartoon characters in childrens media, designed since maybe 2013-2014 or so, looks even remotely like Rouge.

[StaticMania]

7 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

THANK YOU. I find it a shame they got rid of the one design trait that made her look halfway like her species.

Besides her wings...of which bats have the most distinct look for?

Also, her and Blaze are the only characters that still have fangs.

[DabigRG]

This talk about Rouge's proportions reminds me of the debates about Blaze back on Bumbleking Forums. What a chuckle.

8 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

As for X Rouge, the extra spotlight was fun, but I wasn't big on how her and Shadow had this 'dubious morality license' and could switch to unrepentant antagonists or best friends with the heroes at the blink of an eye with no consequences (only Knuckles sometimes called her out, and of course was always the butt monkey for it. Being a complainy pants is a far worse crime than being a villain ). Even for all the complaints towards Archie and Free Riders about how they used them, they at least got treatment that befit when they acted like 'Team Asshole' (I actually liked Treasure Team Tango for keeping their more ambiguous approach but pointing out they couldn't be one AND the other without hangups).

Was she ever really that bad in X? I'm pretty sure Archie and from what I've heard ESPECIALLY StC were the most outright malicious she's been.

52 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Also, her and Blaze are the only characters that still have fangs.

Plus Shadow, Vector, and half of the Zeti.

[Tornado]

5 hours ago, batson said:

Those characters stem from the 90's and early 00's though. When I'm talking about current female character design, I'm really talking just the past 6 or 7 years. The change has been very swift. Some characters gets to remain more or less how they looked back in earlier times due to the "granfather clause", but extremely few new female cartoon characters in childrens media, designed since maybe 2013-2014 or so, looks even remotely like Rouge.

I don't watch enough children's TV to know or even really care whether all of the shows ripping off Steven Universe's aesthetic have characters that look like Rouge, but if characters from Crash that were dead for over a decade were brought back basically the same to how they were when designed because they were grandfathered in among other Western media whose lineage is much more recent, why would a character in continuous use from the same ish time period as Crash in a Japanese franchise not also be similarly ignored?

[Wraith]

5 hours ago, batson said:

Those characters stem from the 90's and early 00's though. When I'm talking about current female character design, I'm really talking just the past 6 or 7 years. The change has been very swift. Some characters gets to remain more or less how they looked back in earlier times due to the "granfather clause", but extremely few new female cartoon characters in childrens media, designed since maybe 2013-2014 or so, looks even remotely like Rouge.

The assertion this discussion is based on isn't really true. They aren't framed the same way as they used to be, but this body type still exists. There's just more variety beyond it.

 

 

 

[Kuzu]

17 minutes ago, Tornado said:

I don't watch enough children's TV to know or even really care whether all of the shows ripping off Steven Universe's aesthetic have characters that look like Rouge, but if characters from Crash that were dead for a decade were brought back basically the same to how they were when designed because they were grandfathered in among other Western media whose lineage is much more recent, why would a character in continuous use from the same ish time period as Crash in a Japanese franchise not also be similarly ignored?

I really hate how the above post almost proves this point...

[DabigRG]

28 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The assertion this discussion is based on isn't really true. They aren't framed the same way as they used to be, but this body type still exists. There's just more variety beyond it.

 

 

 

Was Magiswords good? I didn't hear much less see much of that one.

By the by, I wanna say they were going for more hourglassy shapes.

[Wraith]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Was Magiswords good?

No. I like the character designs though

[thumbs13]

7 hours ago, batson said:

Those characters stem from the 90's and early 00's though. When I'm talking about current female character design, I'm really talking just the past 6 or 7 years. The change has been very swift. Some characters gets to remain more or less how they looked back in earlier times due to the "granfather clause", but extremely few new female cartoon characters in childrens media, designed since maybe 2013-2014 or so, looks even remotely like Rouge.

It's not that there are no characters that look like Rouge, it's that characters have more than three body types, so not everyone immediately looks like her now.

[E-122-Psi]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Besides her wings...of which bats have the most distinct look for?

Also, her and Blaze are the only characters that still have fangs.

Wings that aren't even structured the same way as bats though. Her's are closer to demon/angel wings in that they protrude from her back rather than her arms.

3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

This talk about Rouge's proportions reminds me of the debates about Blaze back on Bumbleking Forums. What a chuckle.

Was she ever really that bad in X? I'm pretty sure Archie and from what I've heard ESPECIALLY StC were the most outright malicious she's been.

She wasn't unbearable, but she still was a morally dubious character that never suffered ANY hardships from being such. The military didn't just trust her, they treated her like an upstanding citizen. 

This was kind of a recurrent problem with the X characterisations really. Usually they designated the same couple characters to always be the punching bags (eg. Eggman, Knuckles, Chaotix) and everyone else tended to keep their dignity unscaved and get off scot free  for their aspects that in most medias are their flaws or weaknesses,. Besides maybe Shadow (who was completely irratic), it wasn't them at their meanest, but I think the fact they were always karma houdinis made them that bit less likeable and fallible.

I dunno, I feel like Shadow and Rouge were kind of drained of their humanity to be the 'cool' anti heroes in the anime. I love how they indignantly call each other out for being pathetic little shits in the SA2 reveal, or the peer pressure war with them over Blaze's emerald in Archie. There's more baggage from them being assholes, while there's none of that in the anime.

[Nergal]

The problem with satam/archie/western sonic female characters and rouge's sa2 design was that they had humanoid porportions compared to the males who had spherical torsos and noodle-limb designs. the disparity was so obvious you couldn't help to notice it since it was an artstyle clash and an attempt to make the female characters appear sexy by making them look like reskinned humans. from an aesthetic and marketing viewpoint designs like that is a no-go since it doesn't particularly appeal to young girls and it kinda restricts your franchise to way too many furries instead of casual players/normies because y'know... who actually wants to see a hot anthro outside of that crowd?

designs like satam sally having a curvy female humanoid shape and narrow limbs while sonic had a round pot belly was still rather subtle because it wasn't extremely obvious (even though she did end up getting tons of furry fanboys *cough*) but with rouge and archie girls they pulled no punches about making them look like mature, minimized women.

personally, i always hated how female characters (in general) were designed with attractiveness in mind while male characters were never particularly attractive in -that- way. at least have both or have none, you know? I think Sailor Moon and Inuyasha does that well.