Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[GentlemanX]

5 hours ago, Miles Storzillo said:

I didn’t say that, I said

Granted, unlike everyone else I don’t mind it, but it’s not my favorite.

Sorry, Unleashed and prior feels so long ago it's getting hard to remember it's still considered "modern", especially since it predates the writing shift of bringing on Pontac and Graff in 2010, which itself is a decade ago. Like, obviously we all call 1998+ "Modern Sonic" due to how Sega has divided the game incarnations now, but it's still weird. But sorry, didn't meant to misrepresent what you meant.

4 hours ago, Kuzu said:

See, and this is where people fundamentally disagree lol. 

While I agree that Lost World's story is completely botched from start to finish, I don't think the idea of having a rift between Sonic & Tails is inherently a bad one. Conflict drives stories, and having one between two characters who normally the best of friends is rife with potential. So I don't think the idea is wrong for them to do. It's just really difficult to actually pull off because as you said, most fans know these characters as thick and thieves, so it would have be a huge issue to cause a legitimate rift between them like that. 

But I feel like just having Sonic & Tails as the best of friends who never fight, would legitimately just bore people after a while unless there was something new to spice it up. So I understand what Lost World's story was going for and why some defend it, because it's one of the very few times the series tries to mess with the status quo somewhat. 

I believe someone can write a scenario where Sonic and Tails are at odds, my paragraph is simply about my issues with Lost World's plot specifically as it relates to keeping the characters consistent and believable. I'll go further, I believe that having a plot where Sonic and Tails are at odds is arguably a thematically relevant next step for their relationship after Sonic Adventure 2. Short of Tails getting his own game or a scenario completely independent of whatever Sonic is doing in a game, there's not a better way to demonstrate that Tails is progressing to become his own hero after SA2 while keeping him in the sidekick role. You can absolutely keep him in the sidekick role and have it still be in character, I believe Tails' role in Sonic Colors is probably the best out of the Pontaff era games in that regard, but the next step in his journey from the two Sonic Adventure games would be to do something heroic without Sonic still there leading by example. Let's take Lost World's premise and remix it a bit to something I think would make more sense in that regard. Sonic and Tails chase Eggman to Lost Hex just as they do in the main prologue, but like with the Egg Carrier fight in Sonic Adventure something happens and they get separated. This would be the ideal opportunity to have two campaigns for Sonic and Tails, finally giving fans a chance to play as Tails again, but it's not mandatory so long as Tails can have scenes without Sonic. Eggman throws Zazz at Sonic, Sonic dispatches with the Conch, and Sonic realizing he's made the Zeti a lot more of a threat agrees to side with Eggman under the assumption that Eggman was the only thing keeping the Zeti from being a mess. Meanwhile Tails is researching the island, he meets other inhabitants (other Zeti? a different race? maybe just the little animals) and sees what all Eggman has been doing to the environment. Sonic and Tails meet up, they've both come to drastically different conclusions about who the real threat is and you have your now much more justified argument and break off again. This culminates with Eggman taking over again following the Deadly Six's defeat only for Sonic and Tails to reconnect and finish off Eggman. Again, that's without any detail, but a rough idea on how you could try and rearrange Sonic Lost World to better fit the story it was trying to tell. There's nothing wrong with the concepts in Sonic Lost World, it just does them in the worst way possible.

[DabigRG]

I could go back to collect each one right now, but a few interesting points came up that I'd like to

Supporting cast meaningful relationship with Sonic vice versa

Made out to be so Sonic century is indeed limiting. Not only new character arc interesting but they more often than not interning interaction with Sonic himself

[Kuzu]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately...

But Heroes does the lighthearted character driven narratives far better than the games after Colors did. 

The entire game is just the characters bouncing off each other in their respective team and I find that really charming, especially with all of the call backs to previous games littered throughout.

I feel like it's overlooked because it's sandwiched between Adventure (The series Golden child) and Shadow (one of the series' blacksheep) so it generally gets ignored.

 

It's still ain't a good game to play tho, sorry I can only give but so much praise.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I've been thinking about this a lot lately...

But Heroes does the lighthearted character driven narratives far better than the games after Colors did. 

The entire game is just the characters bouncing off each other in their respective team and I find that really charming, especially with all of the call backs to previous games littered throughout.

I feel like it's overlooked because it's sandwiched between Adventure (The series Golden child) and Shadow (one of the series' blacksheep) so it generally gets ignored.

 

It's still ain't a good game to play tho, sorry I can only give but so much praise.

The biggest downside is also execution however, since instead of lame jokes Heroes has repetitive exposition and sugary sweet teamwork quips. I do have a soft spot for Team Rose and Team Chaotix regardless, I do agree that they did manage to shine through regardless and had the most character driven approaches. Team Dark worked though I understand people's annoyances with how they handled Shadow and his arc not really being flowed strongly enough through the game. Team Sonic was pretty bland though, just the standard goody goody hero squad.

I admit I also might be more forgiving towards Heroes since I got it before I played the Adventure series so I can't rate it as strongly as a sequel perspective wise. I feel I might have considered Omega a bland expy of Gamma if I'd played SA1 first for example, but playing Heroes first, Omega is....there and okay. Could have done more with him but, okay.

I feel like the light heartedness isn't the bad part of these games in particular but simply how lethargic and corny a lot of the writers handle light heartedness, that when the mood lightens it's back to just aiming for little kids, though in fairness it's not like a lot of the dark works don't have equally cheesy or bland writing.

Another unpopular opinion, but I think if TSR had PROPER CUTSCENES it might have been one of the better cases of light hearted dialogue and interactions in the games, but with just dialogue boxes with no animation or pacing it all just feels like a slog. I liked how they handled Silver and Omega for example, they felt more colourful in that game.

[Kuzu]

I played Heroes after SA2:B, and I was roughly 11 years old. I didn't think it was too corny...except for Team Sonic's theme.

I'm older now, so I can get over that. And exposition is just part of this series at this point.

 

I didn't think TSR's cutscenes were that bad. At worst, the game is just unremarkable but it's not like I'm expecting much from a spin off anyway.

And Im happy they finally made Silver into a huge dork as they did with the comics. It just fits his character a lot better than trying to at him completely straight as a character.

[DabigRG]

Do'est mine eyes deceive me

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I've been thinking about this a lot lately...

But Heroes does the lighthearted character driven narratives far better than the games after Colors did. 

The entire game is just the characters bouncing off each other in their respective team and I find that really charming, especially with all of the call backs to previous games littered throughout.

I feel like it's overlooked because it's sandwiched between Adventure (The series Golden child) and Shadow (one of the series' blacksheep) so it generally gets ignored.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

The biggest downside is also execution however, since instead of lame jokes Heroes has repetitive exposition and sugary sweet teamwork quips. I do have a soft spot for Team Rose and Team Chaotix regardless, I do agree that they did manage to shine through regardless and had the most character driven approaches. Team Dark worked though I understand people's annoyances with how they handled Shadow and his arc not really being flowed strongly enough through the game. Team Sonic was pretty bland though, just the standard goody goody hero squad.

I admit I also might be more forgiving towards Heroes since I got it before I played the Adventure series so I can't rate it as strongly as a sequel perspective wise. I feel I might have considered Omega a bland expy of Gamma if I'd played SA1 first for example, but playing Heroes first, Omega is....there and okay. Could have done more with him but, okay.

I feel like the light heartedness isn't the bad part of these games in particular but simply how lethargic and corny a lot of the writers handle light heartedness, that when the mood lightens it's back to just aiming for little kids, though in fairness it's not like a lot of the dark works don't have equally cheesy or bland writing.

I'm inclined to agree, as the whole team system came together in part to sell the collaborations and dynamics between the characters.

Its just unfortunate that Team Sonic in particular seldom had much of interest to say outside of cutscenes, given that Knuckles was along for the ride in part to troll Sonic and doesn't have the best defined connection with Tails. Though Team Rose didn't have the brightest story, it at least did that better.

1 hour ago, E-122-Psi said:

Another unpopular opinion, but I think if TSR had PROPER CUTSCENES it might have been one of the better cases of light hearted dialogue and interactions in the games, but with just dialogue boxes with no animation or pacing it all just feels like a slog. I liked how they handled Silver and Omega for example, they felt more colourful in that game.

Yeah, having proper cutscenes really could've helped sell some of that game's few plot points and some of the interactions.

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

I've been thinking about this a lot lately...

But Heroes does the lighthearted character driven narratives far better than the games after Colors did. 

The entire game is just the characters bouncing off each other in their respective team and I find that really charming, especially with all of the call backs to previous games littered throughout.

I feel like it's overlooked because it's sandwiched between Adventure (The series Golden child) and Shadow (one of the series' blacksheep) so it generally gets ignored.

The idea behind it is good but the characters mostly run out of new things to say before you hit the halfway point, meaning that repetitive dialogue with subpar english voice acting to ice things off is what you're in for. Evolving team dynamics could have been used as a throughline to make the narrative stronger without having to add more cutscenes, but that's just not what the game does. 

Characters bouncing off of eachother is genuinely more fun to listen to than stand-up for sure but Sonic Heroes wouldn't even be my go-to for that. 

[Kuzu]

Its better than the stand up comedy routine, but it could certainly be better than what we got, I absolutely agree with that.

[Tarnish]

3 hours ago, Wraith said:

The idea behind it is good but the characters mostly run out of new things to say before you hit the halfway point

Bet if they'd talked too much, people would complain about that.

And I wonder how many people stopped on every stage to hear the stage specific lines the characters say while idle.

[Wraith]

24 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

Bet if they'd talked too much, people would complain about that.

They do talk too much and people did complain about that. 

[azoo]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

They do talk too much and people did complain about that. 

Can confirm, was one of them.

Speaking of, I know this opinion is pretty popular amongst the outer fanbase / non-fans but don't know how deep fans respond to it, but holy shit I don't know why Sonic Team thought constant in-game dialogue was a good idea from Heroes - 06, and why they've thought for LW and onward that it should make a comeback.

I mean if we have to have dialogue in stages (which I'd prefer not), I'd accept it if it meant anything towards pushing character interactions or a plot, but 99% of it in any of these games is the characters either directly explaining to the player how things work (Heroes and 06 tutorialing you to death and repeating phrases ad nauseum), or saying a bunch of fluff that means nothing at all (NPCs in Forces saying war junk / congratulating you for nothing, LW having the D6 do stand-up in the bg). It's almost never clever or purposeful in it's appliance, and the frequency that it pops up just turns it into an active nuisance.

Spoiler

And yeah, you could say Colors does it too, but it's less in your face and more just background noise to help build atmosphere, and is often drowned out by the music, so you could also just kind of forget it's there. Regardless..

I guess my point of why I bring it up is because Sonic fans deep deep in the fanbase don't seem to mind the in-game dialogue, if not fully accepting it as part of the game too. Most people outside of that circle seem to find it irritating though, so I guess it's just one of those things where people who are just really into the characters (like, more than the games themselves) don't mind it as much as others do? I dunno.

[Kuzu]

Basically. The fans love these characters, and listening to them talk, even if its mostly fluff, is endearing for them.

 

Its why I think the one thing Forces did right was it make it a toggle option. Its there if you want to listen to it, but you can turn it off if it annoys you.

[E-122-Psi]

On 10/15/2020 at 2:38 PM, Kuzu said:

I didn't think TSR's cutscenes were that bad. At worst, the game is just unremarkable but it's not like I'm expecting much from a spin off anyway.

And Im happy they finally made Silver into a huge dork as they did with the comics. It just fits his character a lot better than trying to at him completely straight as a character.

This is sort of what I mean when I say focusing on the comedic traits or foibles of a character sometimes expands them rather than flanderizes them. Playing on Silver and Omega's quirks and undermining them in a light hearted way makes them feel less like predictable archetypes (now we just need OmegaBlaze canonized :P).

This is why I also side with cases like Tails' childlike bungling inventor aspects or Sally's grouchy 'I know better than you' ones, because I think just playing them completely straight as the smart rational characters and having no dents in their armour to undermine makes them more dull and formulaic.

I understand the whole 'not wanting them to be purely a gag' complaint, since examples like Knuckles show what happens when you take it too far, but you can make a character quirky while still giving them earnest involvement. There's a difference between a whimsical character and one that is one note comic relief.

Truth be told I kinda want SHADOW to have a more comedic side. Not overdone of course, but sort of similar to Archie where he's allowed to make a few funny expressions or trade a few comically petty or grouchy remarks. I feel this limit to breaking his mystique is why cases like Boom dithered over using him at all.

On 10/15/2020 at 3:27 PM, DabigRG said:

I'm inclined to agree, as the whole team system came together in part to sell the collaborations and dynamics between the characters.

Its just unfortunate that Team Sonic in particular seldom had much of interest to say outside of cutscenes, given that Knuckles was along for the ride in part to troll Sonic and doesn't have the best defined connection with Tails. Though Team Rose didn't have the brightest story, it at least did that better.

Yeah, having proper cutscenes really could've helped sell some of that game's few plot points and some of the interactions.

It's weird really, since Team Rose were pretty much the 'pair the leftovers' squad, but they had some decent chemistry moments, perhaps because they played on the fact they were the 'misfit team' and were somehow finding a way to pull it together. Stuff like Amy motivating everyone with her high spirits, Cream reigning in her childish moments, or Big being a protective older brother type. There felt more conflict and pathos with them because they were the wide eyed underdogs who just scooped all their resources together, while Team Sonic were kinda just the generic competent team, despite the potential for chemistry being there. The ending between Sonic and Knuckles was about it for demonstrating it. Really the fact Knuckles was dragged in as a second ally to Sonic actually could have been played on WAY more.

[StaticMania]

2 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

This is sort of what I mean when I say focusing on the comedic traits or foibles of a character sometimes expands them rather than flanderizes them

It's still flanderization...

It's just the positive effect rather than the negative.

[KoDaiko]

Idk if I said this before, and I'm gonna assume this is unpopular, but I'm peronally not fond of Silver's "huge adorkable dork" character portrayal recently. When/where did it start anyway?

I used to be more familiar with the JP side of the fandom and while some fans portrayed him as "cinnamon roll that may kill you", most people's view of him seemed to be classic "nekketsu" shonen protag, compared with Shadow as the dark antihero and Sonic as the unique/western rebellious hero (oh yeah I saw some people complain he's becoming more of a traditional hero recently). Which was mostly because one of his only major appearance was 06 for most people there. That is changing of course but....Idk I really liked what he showed in 06, and felt most of the spinoffs/minor appearance supplemented that so it feels so weird, it feels like a small part of his personality was exaggerated and made to be his prominent trait.

 

Wanted to write this because I saw a tweet comparing Silver in 06 & IDW, being confused/amused at the difference. 

[StaticMania]

12 minutes ago, KoDaiko said:

When/where did it start anyway?

It started in the comics, obviously.

It exists because he's like Trunks from Dragon Ball, him being a guy who's serious because of his bleak future making unable to adequately adjust to peaceful times in the past. Silver's a character who's piggybacking off of the exact same appeal of Trunks except...he was a rival for some reason.

Of course he's not actually portrayed like this in Nex Gen or Sonic Rivals...he's said to be naive and all that contributes to in either game is making him look like an idiot because of bad writing.

In Nex Gen he does appear to be astounded by & have appreciation for simple things  he doesn't get to experience (like a forest area & a desert) due to his future and that could translate into his dorky side.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

My unpopular opinion is that Silver is an uncessary character. It felt as if Sonic Team wanted to have another success like Shadow, but instead Silver never appealed like Shadow, Silver is essentially a Terminator/Back to the Future time character who has telekinesis like Proff X and Jean Grey in X-Men. Originally Sega knew you shouldn't have too many hedgehogs lest you get the dreaded “Spider-Man Clone Saga effect”. Part of why Tails and Knuckles are so beloved is they are unique species, Tails a Two Tailed Fox who flies and Knuckles an Echidna who glides and can claw at things with his knuckles. Shadow the Hedgehog was a major risk in SA2, a dark foil to Sonic could have gone badly, but instead it worked well like Mecha Sonic.  Silver in contrast debuted in perhaps the most hated 06 Game and he doesn’t have the personality that draws you like Sonic’s recklessness and bravado, Knuckles brawn and sarcasm, Tails innocence and insecurity, or Shadow’s ego and silent dissaproval. 

Again this is my unpopular opinion. IMHO 

[StaticMania]

In your opinion...you have an unpopular opinion...

ok.

[Kuzu]

6 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

This is sort of what I mean when I say focusing on the comedic traits or foibles of a character sometimes expands them rather than flanderizes them. Playing on Silver and Omega's quirks and undermining them in a light hearted way makes them feel less like predictable archetypes (now we just need OmegaBlaze canonized :P).

This is why I also side with cases like Tails' childlike bungling inventor aspects or Sally's grouchy 'I know better than you' ones, because I think just playing them completely straight as the smart rational characters and having no dents in their armour to undermine makes them more dull and formulaic.

I understand the whole 'not wanting them to be purely a gag' complaint, since examples like Knuckles show what happens when you take it too far, but you can make a character quirky while still giving them earnest involvement. There's a difference between a whimsical character and one that is one note comic relief.

Truth be told I kinda want SHADOW to have a more comedic side. Not overdone of course, but sort of similar to Archie where he's allowed to make a few funny expressions or trade a few comically petty or grouchy remarks. I feel this limit to breaking his mystique is why cases like Boom dithered over using him at all.

I don't feel like it has to be limited to one or the other; characters can be good regardless if they're taken seriously or not, it depends on the story that you're trying to tell. Silver being a lovable dork only works when the stakes aren't very high and he's thrown into awkward and lighthearted scenarios.

The reason Silver wasn't popular at first is because 06 did a terrible job at selling his character, but that's because the plot and story was half-baked and poorly written, not because it decided to take itself seriously.

Shadow is popular because his story is well written (for the most part...) and his character struggle is better conveyed, and he's probably the grimest Sonic character to date. That's not to say, he can't be involved in dumb shit and he absolutely should, but it shouldn't be the primary focus of the character.

Just because these are furry cartoon characters doesn't mean they can never be taken seriously and have to just be whimsical, lighthearted at all times. There are too many examples in fiction that prove your point wrong, and just because Sonic sucks at it more often than not doesn't make it any less valid. 

 

 

Sonic Lost World is just as terribly written as Shadow's game, but people don't take the former as seriously cuz it's already lighthearted to begin with. It's a rather arbitrary standard people use when the games they don't like are the poorly written ones, but the games they do like are the "its not that bad" ones.  At least try to stay consistent. 

I love Sonic Adventure 2, but I'm not afraid to call it out on its many flaws, and it won't change how I feel about the game one bit. Alternatively, just because I think Lost World is a terrible story doesn't mean that I can't see any merits in it whatsoever. There's some nuance here that people are missing. 

[Shadow Chaos Control]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I don't feel like it has to be limited to one or the other; characters can be good regardless if they're taken seriously or not, it depends on the story that you're trying to tell. Silver being a lovable dork only works when the stakes aren't very high and he's thrown into awkward and lighthearted scenarios.

The reason Silver wasn't popular at first is because 06 did a terrible job at selling his character, but that's because the plot and story was half-baked and poorly written, not because it decided to take itself seriously.

Shadow is popular because his story is well written (for the most part...) and his character struggle is better conveyed, and he's probably the grimest Sonic character to date. That's not to say, he can't be involved in dumb shit and he absolutely should, but it shouldn't be the primary focus of the character.

I agree about Shadow, he is the Vegeta of Mobius. The fact he is grim and at times egocentric (“I’m the Ultimate Lifeform,” “I’m the coolest,” “Let me show you my real power,”) makes him likable. In contrast Sonic is cocky in a different way, and is often unaware of the peril he is in. 

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, KoDaiko said:

Idk if I said this before, and I'm gonna assume this is unpopular, but I'm peronally not fond of Silver's "huge adorkable dork" character portrayal recently. When/where did it start anyway?

I used to be more familiar with the JP side of the fandom and while some fans portrayed him as "cinnamon roll that may kill you", most people's view of him seemed to be classic "nekketsu" shonen protag, compared with Shadow as the dark antihero and Sonic as the unique/western rebellious hero (oh yeah I saw some people complain he's becoming more of a traditional hero recently). Which was mostly because one of his only major appearance was 06 for most people there. That is changing of course but....Idk I really liked what he showed in 06, and felt most of the spinoffs/minor appearance supplemented that so it feels so weird, it feels like a small part of his personality was exaggerated and made to be his prominent trait.

 

Wanted to write this because I saw a tweet comparing Silver in 06 & IDW, being confused/amused at the difference. 

Its often created to the Archie comics, which was sorta based off of some little moments of endearment he had in 06, but was obviously played on both for humor as it went on(or at least the reboot) and as a natural extension of actually being able to express without stiff model animations or questionable line delivery getting in the way.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it alongside his intended naivety and rough start ironically played a role in making his character more accessible than Blaze or lately Shadow.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

9 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it alongside his intended naivety and rough start ironically played a role in making his character more accessible than Blaze or lately Shadow.

How is Shadow now depicted? I haven’t played a Sonic Game since the Camelot spin off.  

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

How is Shadow now depicted? I haven’t played a Sonic Game since the Camelot spin off.  

For a second there, I thought you were taking that teamup animation with Waluigi too seriously and saying there was a Sonic Tennis.

Anyway, starting with Free Riders, Shadow has been increasingly portrayed as haughty, antipathetic, and kinda hostile towards most of the other characters. This has unfortunately transferred to the IDW comics, where a lot of what Flynn intended to do with him got changed or cut because it doesn't line up with Sega's current vision of him.

Forces is like the one exception, oddly enough.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

3 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

For a second there, I thought you were taking that teamup animation with Waluigi too seriously and saying there was a Sonic Tennis.

Anyway, starting with Free Riders, Shadow has been increasingly portrayed as haughty, antipathetic, and kinda hostile towards most of the other characters. This has unfortunately transferred to the IDW comics, where a lot of what Flynn intended to do with him got changed or cut because it doesn't line up with Sega's current vision of him.

Forces is like the one exception, oddly enough.

That’s a shame. Is Forces Shadow more akin to his SA2 personality? 

[DabigRG]

1 minute ago, Titan Mecha Sonic said:

That’s a shame. Is Forces Shadow more akin to his SA2 personality? 

More like 06, where he has more of a calm focus on the situation at hand.

Though he does stark at Rouge being ill-advised enough to send Omega on a stealth mission.